Microsoft Will Resume Pushing Windows 10 To Machines With Win7, 8.1 (computerworld.com) 665
LichtSpektren writes: After previously apologizing on October 16th for forcing Windows 10 on some users of Windows 7 and 8.1 via the Windows Update mechanism, Microsoft disabled the default update option for Windows 10, so that users eligible for the new OS would have to opt in manually. Gregg Keizer at ComputerWorld reports today that Microsoft will soon switch the default option back to "on" again, possibly as early as tomorrow's "Patch Tuesday" update. Users who do not want Windows 10 are strongly advised to turn off automatic updating to avoid accidentally installing the OS.
I understand the consternation (Score:2, Interesting)
But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively. There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines). Install it if you want to, or don't, you still have choice.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
But Windows 10 contains SO MUCH LEGACY.
It's just bigger and slower than Windows 7. :(
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
I've never understood the boot time argument in the post-Windows Vista world. You do that, what, once a day, maybe? For most people that don't shut down or reboot unnecessarily, it's once a week or so. You just saved 30 seconds out of a week. Who gives a shit?
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Informative)
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
First rule in IT: Never put 100% stock in what users tell you. Always test for yourself.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Informative)
Not true, I actually watched it automatically download and then attempt to install itself with no user interaction.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:4, Insightful)
I watched it try so hard and desperate to download something, but couldn't for it could not create a folder called $windows.~BT
There was a file by that name...
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
"Shedding legacy" if fine. If that were all there were to it, MS could offer Win7 users an OPTIONAL update, which turns off various legacy functions that have exploits associated with them.
That is not the case here. MS is pushing their telemetry. In effect, they want your machine to become a part of their cloud. That is unacceptable.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
That is still unacceptable behavior. My workplace is in an area where Verizon has refused to upgrade the phone lines and Time Warner doesn't cover large chunks of each block. So most businesses are on crappy 1.0-1.5 Mbps DSL connections, with the fastest possible being just 3 Mbps. Combine that with each business having 3-10 computers and this automatic multi-gigabyte download behavior is completely unacceptable. Especially for the couple businesses who've resorted to cellular LTE Internet with extremely low data caps to try to get decent speed.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Interesting)
> It'll merely be downloaded to your machine
Yup - it did this to me...
On a machine that connects to the internet via a 3G dongle...
With a 500MB/month data plan...
Downloading both win8.1 and 10.0 (without asking) cost us in the region of 150 GBP.
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1: this infection defaults to enabled in the optional update list, it's trying to get installed 'by accident'. Trying very hard.
2: it's burning 3Gb of my deliberately small C: partition and every time I deleted the installer it just downloaded it again.
That's not looking like any sort of choice to me unless I revert the entire OS to an unsafe state without security updates. Given I don't have a clean ISO for Win8 with Bing that's going to be a challenge.
They truly are scum.
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1: this infection defaults to enabled in the optional update list, it's trying to get installed 'by accident'. Trying very hard.
2: it's burning 3Gb of my deliberately small C: partition and every time I deleted the installer it just downloaded it again.
That's not looking like any sort of choice to me unless I revert the entire OS to an unsafe state without security updates. Given I don't have a clean ISO for Win8 with Bing that's going to be a challenge.
They truly are scum.
You can use Windows 8 to make an ISO of itself for backup. See here: http://windows.microsoft.com/e... [microsoft.com]
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...which will include the GWX, Win Update and telemetry I want rid of.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Informative)
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I want you to be modded "+5 Sad Truth"
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Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Informative)
Except Microsoft has already installed the windows 10 update without user input at least once. It could happen again any time.
http://arstechnica.com/informa... [arstechnica.com]
"over the last couple of days, the situation seems to have become a little more aggressive. We've received a number of reports that people's systems are not merely downloading the installer but actually starting it up. Our own testing shows that, yes, the optional update is getting chosen by default, and that's not supposed to happen to optional updates."
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
No the problem here is that this OS vendor thinks it's OK to force users to download gigabytes against their will.
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I understand the consternation (Score:4, Insightful)
You still have a choice: you can leave this vendor and pick another vendor
There was a multi-year long antitrust battle that Microsoft lost where the courts decided quite matter of fact that no, most people do not have that option.
Drop some acid... (Score:2)
Looks like Bill gates finally took Steve Jobs' advice and dropped some acid...
Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:3)
I was contemplating upgrading recently. And I don't see any reason NOT to. System requirements are the same as 7 and 8.1.
Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?
Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:5, Informative)
If you have older hardware, you might have difficulties getting the drivers to work. Half of my Thinkpad X200's hardware wasn't working with Windows 10. Also Windows 10 is fugly compared to 7 and still feels like an early beta.
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Yes and it takes til the 1st service pack and about 2 years before it's stable as in server versions base their kernels and services only after a service pack and a year after.
Windows 8.1 is now being stable with it's updates not failing. 7 just worked. XP was funky until service pack 2 when it solidified. Windows 10 is as buggy as Vista. I am resisting upgrading until 10.1 next summer
Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:4, Informative)
Flat borders, ugly flat icons, tiles in the start menu.
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/Oblg. Windows 1 vs Windows 8 [netdna-cdn.com]
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if you like being spied on and never knowing what they are doing to you're property it still doesn't add anything.
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Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:5, Informative)
A few....
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technol... [www.cbc.ca]
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/windo... [ibtimes.co.uk]
Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:5, Insightful)
Ads in the Start menu, Telemetry, possible hardware incompatibilities?
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Spyware, and the possibility that a W10 update will break something important.
Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because if you were the customer, MS would be charging you for the privilege of purchasing their product.
You are the product, and MS is trying to downgrade functional Win 7 machines (general-purpose computers that run software at the user's discretion and transmit telemetry only when the user misconfigures them) into telemetry-gathering nodes on something that is becoming increasingly-indistinguishable from what we used to call a botnet.
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Lots [wordpress.com]
of [majorgeeks.com]
downsides [techradar.com]
At this point, why would you trust anything they say? [microsoft.com]
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Buggy drivers are still a problem - last I checked, elite:dangerous + amd + win 10 was still a broken mess that works fine on 7 or 8.1. There have been numerous problems with the saitek X55 windows 10 driver. A number of old printers also no longer work.
And of course, if you're using windows media centre, then installing windows 10 will murder it.
That's just the broken stuff I know about from personal/friends experience, off the cuff. I'm sure there are many more. You've also got to factor the privacy impli
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I removed all the live tiles and now there is nothing but a huge empty space where they were supposed to be. I know there are alternatives to the classic start menu but I refuse to rely on a third party add on. This is something broken by design.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh and, I hope you don't having anything Microsoft deems as "unacceptable" such as "pirated" software. ;-)
Not to worry MS will just Uninstall your apps. I mean you did read the eula right?
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Actually, while not pirated, the Windows 10 installer will uninstall applications it deems "incompatible," such as the Cisco VPN client.
I would install, but... (Score:2)
So is Microsoft watching everything I type, listening in on everything, and recording every web site even if on Chrome or Chrome incognito?
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Re:APK APK APK (Score:5, Informative)
Disable the Update by hand. (Score:5, Informative)
Add this to your registry and the Windows 10 update will go away...
Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx]
"DisableGwx"=dword:00000001
why isn't that illegal (Score:4, Insightful)
They are hocking their latest fair onto machines that are better off with the older operating system. Windows 10 doesn't offer any more functionality than windows 7 or 8.1. I don't need some crappy talking clippy to search for things for me. I don't need it, period.
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It's legal because of the ToS you accepted when you installed the operating system and accepted automatic updates from Microsoft. Therefore you did it to yourself. [thenewamerican.com]
My suggestion is to dump automatic updates and go to something like Autopatcher [wikipedia.org] which avoids accepting things blindly on your behalf.
MS innovation! (Score:5, Funny)
"Accidentally installing the OS." Now there's a computer problem that nobody would've predicted!
To those saying it can't be installed accidentally (Score:5, Interesting)
I have also read some comments on Ars Technica's article that some users could not find any way to interrupt the installation, only hard reboot, or wait for the full installation to finish and then regress back to 7.
Linux time! (Score:2, Interesting)
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Know much about WINE? There is one piece of Windows-only software that is absolutely necessary for me: http://powertap.com/product/po... [powertap.com] Think it'll run OK? I believe it's written in Java (yah yah I know, but there really isn't any other software I can use in this case).
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Why? (Score:2)
It's a simple enough question, and one for which I haven't yet seen any answer. Why? What is it in Windows 10 that makes it so desirable for _Microsoft_ to _give away_?
Remember, if you are not paying for a service, it is because you are the _product_.
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Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apple is making buckets of money from their App store. Microsoft sees this, concludes it is unacceptable, and wants to get that money for itself, or at least as much of it as possible.
Now, Windows 8 and 8.1 had the App store, but 8 - while perhaps not a marketing disaster like Vista - still doesn't sit well with people. Windows 7 is well-liked, but there's no App store. Therefore: Upgrade everyone to Windows 10 for free, and wait for money to start rolling in via app purchases, in-menu advertisements, and other benefits. Maybe they can even sell telemetry data to marketing firms, depending on how much they wash it and how close they want to toe a legal line about turning over such information to third parties.
I've yet to hear any better explanation.
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The same thing everybody makes money from these days: ads, analytics, access to your data, and the attempt to further lock you into their platform.
Microsoft have decided that your computer is now their computer, and that they will decide what happens to it.
Windows 10 is the point at which Microsoft decides to openly state they don't give a crap what their "customers" want.
Welcome to the future, where corporate interests means they have more control over the products you buy than you do.
I figure Microsoft i
You will be assimilated (Score:5, Funny)
NOW can we put the "Bill as Borg" icon back for Microsoft, Dice?
Not Nice, Microsoft (Score:3)
While I am Sold to the Win10 new ways* , I understand why some other people (minority or not, but VERY vocal) are opposed to it. So it is NOT NICE from Microsoft to push so hard for Win10.
Had they had a gentler touch from the beginning, we wouldn't see all this pushback, and all this cottage industry of tips and tricks and apps to disable the upgrade...
You harvest the tempests you sowed...
*full disclosure, my main machines are macs, some legacy win laptops and all my bootcamp partitions are going to Win10*
How to avoid it (at least for now) (Score:4, Insightful)
It's the old "how to disable cookies in Firefox (was it, I think?)" trick again.
MS tries to create a folder called C:\$windows.~BT to download its installer files into. Create a file by that name and, well, no way to create a folder by that name or dump the files somewhere. Installer croaks, aborts download, bullet dodged.
Of course MS will eventually catch on and close that loophole, but it should be good to let us survive another patch day.
They got me (Score:3)
Button said, "Download now and install later". What they meant was "Download now and install when it's done downloading".
But you consented! (Score:5, Insightful)
... when you click-through the sixteen page license agreement presented to you in 3 pt font in dark grey text on light grey background, some three years ago when you installed Win7. Right there on page fourteen, paragraph 4, sub paragraph 2, it said you agreed that the licensee (that's you) permits unscheduled, unannounced, update to the computer by the vendor, at vendor's sole discretion, with no recourse.
Done in by EULA (Score:3)
... and the binding arbitration clause that's now present in millions of EULA?
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And also, my bandwidth not yours. Which is not uncapped or particularly cheap where I am at.
Re:Let's be clear (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Let's be clear (Score:5, Informative)
Yep. That's where I was. I simply let it go and then tested my apps. Everything seems to still work but there wasn't a clean way to prevent the upgrade. I'm still checking some of the third tier apps I use (don't run very often but want to check) and can just reinstall Windows 7 if I find something horribly bad (yes, I have regular backups as well).
[John]
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Yep. That's where I was. I simply let it go and then tested my apps. Everything seems to still work but there wasn't a clean way to prevent the upgrade. I'm still checking some of the third tier apps I use (don't run very often but want to check) and can just reinstall Windows 7 if I find something horribly bad (yes, I have regular backups as well).
[John]
See here: http://www.howtogeek.com/22072... [howtogeek.com]
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Re:Let's be clear (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Let's be clear (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let's be clear (Score:4, Insightful)
"Your" experience is second hand, and appears to be someone playing a practical joke upon a co-worker. The "reports of several people" seems dubious too.
I have my own direct experience of how the install works, I've done it twice. Given actual, first hand, experience of three machines - two installed, one not - given the fact millions of people would be protesting if there had ever been a period whereby Windows 10 "installed itself" without bringing up a single cancellable dialog, and given the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if it ever tried to pull this stunt, I would seriously advice you to locate the practical joker in your office.
Oh, like the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if they downloaded 12 GB (or however much it is) without asking the user? Or sending their personal information to 100+ domains without the ability to turn it off? Yeah, they admitted they were doing this and that too.
But keep telling yourself that there is a ghost that is floating to peoples' computers and maliciously installing operating systems on them. Microsoft already apologized two months ago for doing what you're denying is occurring.
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... how much of that is enforceable and will hold up in court?
The more appropriate question would be: how much money is available to pay for the required legal professionals' services to uphold it (or successfully contest it). Which is normally more than the average middle-class citizen can muster, especially compared to Microsoft's available funds.
The unfortunate reality is that the EULA by default stands until questioned, a court will not do that by its own volition and for free. Someone has to pay for that.
Re:Legal? (Score:5, Insightful)
By the time a case makes it to court, the damage is done. Your computer is "upgraded", Windows telemetry knows everything that is on your machine, and all your secrets are public. Not to mention, that half of your software no longer works, because of compatibility issues.
It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.
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Re:Not acceptable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this. They are getting the unintended consequences that any rational person should have seen coming a mile away. This is not going to go well for MS, and it would not surprise me if it ended up in court. They are basically turning the most used OS on the planet into an advertising platform with an app store built in. They were making a ton of money on the paid-for versions like 7, so I don't know why they let the bean counters talk them into switching revenue streams. If bundling IE got them in trouble with courts, there has to be a class action lawsuit in here somewhere, regardless of what is in the EULA.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:5, Insightful)
Changing the EULA after the fact for something material like this should make the EULA null and void in its entirety.
But much like Sony, this is enough reason for me to never use MS products again, were I still using any.
Captcha: takers
speaks for itself
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this.
I've had to shut off auto-updates for a very long time. My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.
Windows 10, as I understand it, makes this problem worse.
I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people. They finally get an OS that is stable enough it can run for a week without needing to be rebooted (or rebooting on its own) and they decide you have to reboot anyway.
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I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people.
It will sell more copies of/upgrades to Windows Pro than probably anything else will. Since that's the only version where you can turn off automatic updates. I don't know why CPU usage / system load isn't taken into account when scheduling even an automatic reboot.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft tried to "harmonize" their smartphones with their desktops to have a consistent user interface. If Apple and Android smartphones have an "app store" where pre-tested applications are on sale, then so must Microsoft. Then Microsoft introduced that "live tiles" interface for their smartphones to match the App pages on smartphones. Therefore, the desktop must have one too. It can't be a separate application because users may not use it. So it must be bolted onto the desktop somewhere. The only practical place is in the start pullup menu.
Since smartphones auto-update applications, then so must the desktop. One problem with desktop systems are the large botnets, malware, viruses with growth assisted by users who don't update regularly. So Microsoft decides the only solution is to forced every system to get "updates" at night. For hipsters, it's cool to suddenly discover "new features" on their phones in the morning. For anyone else who had project work running it is infuriating to suddenly find their work gone and the machine stuck in a update.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Interesting)
This trend of trying to converge computers and mobile devices was stupid when it started, and still is. It's spread to website developers, where you have clowns suggest having a single site for both computers and mobile devices, rather than have different sites based on the device (like m.foo.com) That's the problem when you try to improve what's already optimal, if not perfect.
In Apple's case, making OS X like iOS was totally needless - not only b'cos of the differences b/w Macbook Airs vs iPads, but also due to the fact that OS X is an OS on x64 (and PowerPC before that) and iOS is an OS on Apple's ARM compatible CPUs. Only technical reason I can think of to converge them is if Apple decided to make their laptops and desktops based on the A9s rather than Intel's core processors. Since they're not doing it, what was the point?
In Microsoft's case, it was even more inexplicable. They had Windows 7, which was perfect. The right thing to have done would have been to make Windows 8 (w/o the desktop) for just the tablets and phones, and put the Windows 8 kernel under Windows 7. Ideally, brand them differently, like Apple did, or do something like KDE did. But even if not doing that, they should have just left Windows 7 as the interface for laptops, changing only the kernel beneath but leaving the userland unchanged. And maybe changing the model for application development.
Something like the current Windows 10 interface would have been ideal for hybrids, but the original 7 and 8 could have stayed on their respective platforms
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Informative)
My smartphone most certainly does not auto-update anything.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this.
I've had to shut off auto-updates for a very long time. My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.
Windows 10, as I understand it, makes this problem worse.
I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people. They finally get an OS that is stable enough it can run for a week without needing to be rebooted (or rebooting on its own) and they decide you have to reboot anyway.
You should learn how to make a local policy which you can push to all machines. No business or school should be blindly using the automatic update schedule from Microsoft. Create your own so you don't have unnecessary loss of productivity and downtime. You can't blame Microsoft for this. They only want computers more secure.
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You can't blame Microsoft for this. They only want computers more secure.
That's all they want? You really think that?
I call bullshit.
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Re:Not acceptable. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't see MS doing this for the sake of users, I see them doing it because they think this will provide greater revenue streams. There is not other explanation for them pushing a change to 10 so aggressively. They need as many eyes on the app store as possible, or it isn't going to pan out.
Your instincts from a year ago were more on target.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:5, Insightful)
MS tried to stick to a model (buy/own a product) that was antiquated by Google's model (ad supported). Google instead offers everything at no charge while making money off the ads they push in your face. Users have embraced this model (even if most claim they hate it). For that reason MS is changing it's offering by monetizing through ads + a cut of app sales. Some will argue that MS is late to the game but I believe they resisted the change because they though people would go back to owning software.
MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.
So at the end of the day these changes are the result of what users want (not us the techies).
Wrong, nobody wants it.
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Insightful)
MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.
This is the perfect one-sentence expression of everything that's been wrong with Microsoft's Windows strategy in the last five years (at least).
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MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.
You opinion isn't fact. Their revenues tell a different story. They brought in 6 billions more in 2015 than in 2014. Stop grabbing fictional facts from your butt hole.
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Two of my other machines have attempted to download it, but I actually use those enough that I spent the time scrubbing out al
Re:Not acceptable. (Score:4, Informative)
None [of my Win 7 PCs] have forced it on to me. I just have to click decline every week or so
So the default is the upgrade and you must decline repeatedly to avoid it? And you find that perfectly acceptable ? It is a pity that in being modded down as Troll (as you will be) you will slide down out of sight of many readers. It is a pity because to see an attitude like yours is itself an education in the strangeness of human nature. Unless of course you are trying to be funny.
You can also download a blocker from Microsoft.
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I sense a bias towards Microsoft. This is clearly unacceptable behavior for any reasonably ethical company, yet you defend these actions.
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Tried it, hated it, went back to 7 and MS is still nagging me to downgrade to windows 10 (10 is no upgrade). What's with TFS's "will resume"? They never stopped. I'd go Linux-only except all the magazines demand a Word file, and Oo and Lo can't save one properly.
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I do too. One title is called "Windows Media Center" and it's the only roll-your-own-DVR that works with Time Warner due to Time Warner's abuse of the CopyOnce CCI flag.
Guess I'll never run Windows Update on that box ever again.
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And the most successful Trojan horse award goes out to Micro$oft Windows.
Re:Screw the user (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it is wrong?
According to you. If you don't like it, don't buy from that business. If you do buy from that business, you're just an enabler.
Because it is unethical?
According to you. And so what? Why does this matter?
Because it is a poor business decision?
Wrong. It's a good business decision. Do you see Microsoft's profits disappearing? I don't. People keep buying from them. So their strategy seems to be working, therefore it's a good thing for them to do.
If your auto dealer installed a camera in your car to snoop on you, an when you complain they say "we updated the EULA", are you going to just accept it?
It is not acceptable to do that in other industries. Why give Microsoft a pass?
Re:Screw the user (Score:5, Insightful)
If your auto dealer installed a camera in your car to snoop on you, an when you complain they say "we updated the EULA", are you going to just accept it?
It is not acceptable to do that in other industries. Why give Microsoft a pass?
GM customers seemed happy to keep doing business with GM after they did just that (well, audio, not video) for OnStar - there were several incidents, from police snooping to bored operators.
I'm OK with laws to enforce privacy, but it's a democracy and if most people don't care, well, we get the government we deserve. In the meantime, consumers also have a duty to stop doing business with assholes. Legal or not, when a company makes an asshole move like this, and you decide to keep doing business with them, well, decisions have consequences.
Re:Screw the user (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it is wrong?
According to you. If you don't like it, don't buy from that business. If you do buy from that business, you're just an enabler.
Because it is unethical?
According to you. And so what? Why does this matter?
Because it is a poor business decision?
Wrong. It's a good business decision. Do you see Microsoft's profits disappearing? I don't. People keep buying from them. So their strategy seems to be working, therefore it's a good thing for them to do.
According to everyone. It's wrong and unethical if you override someone else's will to do yours on something you don't own. The customer bought the computer and the OS. Overriding their will with their computer isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong.
Re:Screw the user (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't give a shit about what you or even some sell-out judge says. This is WRONG (morally and factually) and anyone who believes it should go fuck himself!
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The customer does NOT own the OS. This has been made clear by licensing agreements
They own the right to use it. To use the thing that they licensed, not something else.
Suppose I give you a licence to shoot rabbits on my land, with no time limit. I cannot one day say that I am changing the licence from shooting rabbits on my land to shooting rats in my cellar, because the rabbit stuff was "only a licence".
What you are claiming sounds like US law, which I understand is in the hands of corporates like Microsoft. None of this twaddle would stand up in a UK court of law.
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Compared to Windows 10, that's one smooth, silky, well lubed little french tickler. Who knows, you might even enjoy it!