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Transportation Businesses The Almighty Buck United States

Boring Company Proposes Massive Vegas Expansion Following Monorail Bankruptcy (theverge.com) 128

Posted by BeauHD from the big-plans dept.
Elon Musk's tunneling venture, The Boring Company, is planning a massive citywide expansion of the currently modest underground transportation system it's building in Las Vegas. The Verge reports: The startup now wants to build a 10-mile sub-surface "loop" that serves the famous Las Vegas Strip of casino hotels and reaches the city's downtown area as well as McCarran International Airport, all with Tesla vehicles. The Boring Company also wants to build an additional loop that connects properties owned by Caesars Entertainment. The proposed new tunnels would make it possible to go from the Las Vegas Convention Center to Mandalay Bay in just three minutes, as opposed to 30 minutes by surface roads during peak traffic hours, the company claims.

The plans, first reported by the Las Vegas Review-Journal, were detailed in proposals submitted to Clark County officials on Monday. The Boring Company's expansion push comes just days after the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA) finished buying the Las Vegas Monorail, which filed for bankruptcy in September after shutting down in March. Following the acquisition, the LVCVA killed a noncompete agreement that had previously kept The Boring Company from digging any tunnels that served the same areas reached by the monorail. The monorail is not expected to reopen until at least May 2021.
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Boring Company Proposes Massive Vegas Expansion Following Monorail Bankruptcy More

Boring Company Proposes Massive Vegas Expansion Following Monorail Bankruptcy

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  • #SubwayFellings (Score:5, Insightful)

    by fbobraga ( 1612783 ) on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:35PM (#60839614) Homepage
    Why not trains? Oh, it's marketing, not urban traffic problem solver...

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Entrope ( 68843 )

      There is a definite trade-off in terms of available capacity versus typical usage. I have no idea how it will turn out in practice, but the one time I went to Las Vegas, the monorail was almost empty. Hauling literally tons of extra train 24x7 isn't exactly efficient.

      • I know: it's a #needCar demand, not related to efficiency (it's only FUD)...

      • and trade-off from an ADA lawsuit when they can't use an car may be an big one

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward
        The monorail was built at the back of the hotels at which it stops, which required riders to tramp through the casino - good for the casinos, but a PITA for would-be riders. And thus good for taxis and rideshares that pick up at the front of the casinos.

      • Re:#SubwayFellings (Score:5, Interesting)

        by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:53AM (#60840120)

        the monorail was almost empty.

        A big reason the monorail was lightly used is that it didn't go anywhere useful.

        It didn't go to the airport and it didn't go downtown.

        So you could take it from the hotel where you are staying to another hotel where you aren't staying.

        • Re:#SubwayFellings (Score:5, Interesting)

          by mobby_6kl ( 668092 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:07AM (#60840502)

          It didn't go to the airport and it didn't go downtown.

          So you could take it from the hotel where you are staying to another hotel where you aren't staying.

          It's also hidden way in the back of the hotels, and isn't on the LV blvd where everyone is. So I never even saw it when I was in Vegas and never considered it as an option, when busses and cabs are right there. Checking the map now, it can easilby be 10 minutes away when you're walking on the strip and want to go to another hotel.

          • and isn't on the LV blvd where everyone is.

            That was deliberate. They didn't want the monorail obstructing the view when people took pictures of The Strip.

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by grogger ( 638944 )
          We were staying at Circus Circus (cheep and free parking) and walked to the south end (of the strip. From there we got the monorail back. It was not obvious where to catch it but we found the south-end station near the MGM Grand. We got off at the nearest station to Circus Circus - which is a km from the strip in a thing called Westgate Las Vegas Resort. The line leaves the strip half way up at Sands and then does not meet up with it again until the very north end of the strip. So if you are in the sou

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by spitzak ( 4019 )

        The LasVegas monorail costs something like $5 to ride. It needs to be free if you want to see it's viability as a realistic transportation solution.

    • Why not trains? Oh, it's marketing, not urban traffic problem solver...

      The monorail was a train. It was built in about the only spot available on the strip, behind the casinos. Another spot available, underground. I hear that underground is a popular place for trains in many cities.

    • Re:#SubwayFellings (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Rei ( 128717 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @03:56AM (#60840298) Homepage

      Express P2P vs. non-express routes is a massive difference in terms of transit time and user convenience. Like, half an order of magnitude or so, depending on the route. It has far more in common with highways than trains - limited access, onramps and offramps, acceleration and deceleration lanes, etc - just underground, automated, and with higher max speed limits. No stopping every few kilometers. No taking people where they don't want to go. No tradeoff between stop density and transit times. No needing to have dozens to hundreds of people per trip to justify a line / stop. Stop thinking "trains" and think "roads".

      And FYI, as much as people who have no involvement in the project but enjoy a good Musk bashing like to throw barbs, I recommend watching the town hall meeting and seeing how thrilled they and the city's engineers are with the current project's progress and its expansion potential. Clips here [youtu.be].

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        (The other main difference vs. roads being that you have limitless potential to add additional lanes, since you operate in 3d, and are not constrained by surface obstacles. But in terms of structure, it's the same, and very different from that used by trains and subways)

        • you have limitless potential to add additional lanes

          No, you don't. 3D or not, there is still a finite area you can add more tunnels when you take into consideration depth as well as structurally stabilizing the ground itself. Not to mention the added task of funneling all those additional lanes into one location after you've already designed the system for only one/two lanes.

          • Re: (Score:1)

            by Rei ( 128717 )

            No, you don't. 3D or not, there is still a finite area you can add more tunnels when you take into consideration depth

            Tunnels can (and do) extend several kilometers into the ground. That is, several hundred entire layers of tunnels. E.g.: effectively infinite.

            as well as structurally stabilizing the ground itself.

            Depending on the type of surrounding material, tunnels can even be stronger than what they're bored into.

            Not to mention the added task of funneling all those additional lanes into one location af

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by hattig ( 47930 )

      Indeed, this car-based tunnel, even with self-driving and optimal car behaviour, has only a fraction of the capacity of a metro rail service, from the modelling (sorry I have no link) I have seen.

      These tunnels are also very narrow bore, unlike a underground metro service, which would make them hard to retrofit into something that actually works once the authorities wise up to how ineffective the implementation is. Possibly it's wide enough for a Glasgow/Istanbul sized metro rail solution.

      This solution is cl

    • It's a test system. Nobody really HAS to go to Vegas and it also doesn't matter what happens to degenerate gamblers, it's a win-win for such tests.

    • Quite ironic. You claim it's a marketing stunt but ask a question which you'd know the answer to if you actually read the marketing material.

    • "Well, sir, there's nothin' on Earth like a genuine bona-fide electrified six-car monorail!" - Lyle Lanley

  • Claim bankruptcy. Get new contract. Profit.

  • Is it fair to say it failed because it didn't connect to the airport? I enjoyed it just for the sights, but why the hell didn't it connect to the one place needing it the most?

    (I'm probably asking rhetorically... I'm sure the "big money interests" like taxis and shuttle companies greased palms aplenty to keep a station well away from the airport.)

    • Re:airport? (Score:5, Informative)

      by JBMcB ( 73720 ) on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:03PM (#60839674)

      (I'm probably asking rhetorically... I'm sure the "big money interests" like taxis and shuttle companies greased palms aplenty to keep a station well away from the airport.)

      All you need to know about Las Vegas taxi companies:

      The Las Vegas airport is about two blocks away from the strip. A taxi ride to any of the nearby resorts should take about ten minutes, fifteen minutes tops. The vast majority of taxi rides to the strip head south onto the 215 express way (the opposite direction of the strip) THEN hooks up with Las Vegas Blvd. If asked, the taxi driver will tell you he's showing you the famous "Welcome To Las Vegas" sign, which, incidentally, more than doubles the length of your ride.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jonwil ( 467024 )

        Can you even get an Uber/Lyft/etc from the Las Vegas airport or have the taxi companies managed to shut that out as well?

        And if Uber/Lyft/etc can pick you up at the Las Vegas airport why would any sane person use a taxi and pay more? (the way the apps for these services work prevents the drivers from taking the long way just to make more money)

        • You can. I strongly recommend avoiding shared Ubers. That's just my personal experience. Not everyone arriving/leaving Las Vegas showers, and it's not just the hackers.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by jonwil ( 467024 )

            If ride sharing is available from Las Vegas airport and if its cheaper (and therefore better) than the taxis, why hasn't it put the taxis out of business?

            Or is there something going on in Vegas that makes using ride sharing from Las Vegas airport to avoid the overpriced crappy taxis not as good as it might appear on the surface?

            • If ride sharing is available from Las Vegas airport and if its cheaper (and therefore better) than the taxis, why hasn't it put the taxis out of business?

              Or is there something going on in Vegas that makes using ride sharing from Las Vegas airport to avoid the overpriced crappy taxis not as good as it might appear on the surface?

              I'm guessing niot everyone wants to wait for an Uber/Lyft and the cost of a taxi, vs the convenience, is tiny compared to the overall cost of the trip. Take DC for example, people still use Uber/Lyft and taxi's even though the Metro runs from DCA to downtown and is a lot cheaper and faster during rush hour.

            • I'm not quite sure if I'm getting this right, but for a while Uber was banned from operating in Las Vegas. That is, the city of Las Vegas proper. Thing is, most of the strip is not inside Las Vegas, nor is the airport. So, if you were going to a hotel on the strip, you *could* take an Uber, but if you were going downtown, you *had* to take a taxi. The rules have changed several times and I'm not sure how it works now, but I'm pretty sure that's how it worked for a while.

            • I don't know, but after Uber/Lyft were available in Las Vegas, I never got ripped off by a taxi again.

        • (the way the apps for these services work prevents the drivers from taking the long way just to make more money)

          Sort of. I had an Uber driver once go about 20 miles ou of the way, which added about $10 too my fare. I assume beacuse of where he picked me up he thought I was and destination, he thought I was a tourist. What he didn't realize is Iive in town and knew what he was doing, skipping exits and not making a u turn, assuming he missed the actuakl exit. When I complained to Uber they refunded my fare; i assume they docked him as well. But yea, Uber / Lyft prevent gouging; unless the drivers conspire to drive

      • (I'm probably asking rhetorically... I'm sure the "big money interests" like taxis and shuttle companies greased palms aplenty to keep a station well away from the airport.)

        All you need to know about Las Vegas taxi companies:

        The Las Vegas airport is about two blocks away from the strip. A taxi ride to any of the nearby resorts should take about ten minutes, fifteen minutes tops. The vast majority of taxi rides to the strip head south onto the 215 express way (the opposite direction of the strip) THEN hooks up with Las Vegas Blvd. If asked, the taxi driver will tell you he's showing you the famous "Welcome To Las Vegas" sign, which, incidentally, more than doubles the length of your ride.

        Every time I've asked they've cut the fare in half. I learned that from a cab driver who told me if someone goes that way to the airport , ask them and they'll charge the normal fare so as nopt to risk a fine. Not sure if that is still true but was a few years ago. That said, a subway would be a nice alternative.

  • full size cars in an SUBWAY and not an train / bus. Also ADA access?
    If it was full size cars why just make it an toll road with elevators?

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by crow ( 16139 )

      Two major reasons:

      * They can't let non-EV vehicles in without adding massive ventilation infrastructure to deal with the exhaust.

      * By making it restricted to The Boring Company's Teslas, they can run the in self-driving mode without any of the regulatory issues of operating them on regular streets.

    • Look at Tesla's bus/peoplemover design. Still in the engineering phase.

  • The lever you have pulled - "brakes" - is not in s (Score:3)

    by Joe_Dragon ( 2206452 ) on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:57PM (#60839662)

    The lever you have pulled - "brakes" - is not in service. Please make a note of it.

  • I've been to Las Vegas (Score:3)

    by NotTheSame ( 6161704 ) on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:06PM (#60839680)

    I've been to Las Vegas. Did you know that it's possible to travel from casino to casino - but without a monorail or tunnel?

    I was able to simulate the effects of a car by achieving the bipedal, biphasic forward propulsion of the center of gravity of my body. I intend to publish a research paper detailing my experiences.

    • To be fair walking the length of the strip is quite a ways, and takes a good bit of time.

    • I've been to Las Vegas. Did you know that it's possible to travel from casino to casino - but without a monorail or tunnel?

      I was able to simulate the effects of a car by achieving the bipedal, biphasic forward propulsion of the center of gravity of my body. I intend to publish a research paper detailing my experiences.

      How many "escort" cards did you accumulate during the perambulation?

    • Otherwise known as two feet and a heartbeat.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dj245 ( 732906 )
      One of the last trips my grandmother took before her health made travel impossible was to Vegas. She had a wonderful time but walking was not possible. Vegas is not readily accessible to pedestrians of limited mobility.
    • Walking from the strip to the Stratosphere took a lot longer than expected - Over an Hour - and takes you to some of the slummiest parts of Vegas where you see dilapidated houses, seedy motels, those little chapels for impromptu weddings, and a chained-up pit bull in a yard made entirely of dirt.

  • That would be neat...a transit loop served by Teslas. All self-driving, and since the tunnels are basically empty the self-driving part isn't as important. Then hook up with uber/lyft and they have the transit system of tomorrow.

    • Teslas are pretty inefficient compared to subway cars, in terms of people/hour. Also, vandalism resilience. Also, disaster mitigation. Also - actually, what advantage do Teslas have

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        "People per hour per vehicle" is not a meaningful metric. "People per hour per unit capital cost" is closer, but still not the whole picture. And the whole point is that it's PRT [wikipedia.org]. Every ride is express (not constantly accelerating then decelerating every few km), and every ride goes direct to destination via the shortest route.

        • "People per hour per vehicle" is not a meaningful metric.

          Wow, it's a good thing I never mentioned "people per hour per vehicle" then. I talked about "seconds per person per directions [aka line]" Which is totally about capacity. Each Boring Loop location needs to receive and offload a Tesla every 4 seconds, and load and dispatch a Tesla every 4 seconds, to match the monorail's current carrying capacity. How is that going to work?

          Meanwhile, you completely miss that accelerating and decelerating many peo

  • consider.
    a tubeway system for the top population centers to transport cargo containers

    • That's called a railroad and there's no reason cargo could not go by subway. The tech was perfected long ago. However subway and tunnels aren't good for handling outsize cargo for construction projects etc over the "last mile" so appropriate intermodal terminals (which could of course be underground but would be stunningly expensive) would be required.
      Pedestrians are the biggest pain in the arse and underground walkways should be considered where appropriate as they protect users in all weathers.

    • Yeah, call me when you manage to get even a normal train system.

      Because vaccum tubes over thousands of miles, while extremely nice, is also extremely costly.
      I don't think it is economically feasible unless he tunnels can be made for free. (Even with drilling robots, tungsten carbide doesn't grow on trees.)

  • Because it can't do corners and because it can't do long distances and is otherwise a damp squib?

  • You mean, an underground road? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by An Ominous Cow Erred ( 28892 ) on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:43PM (#60839748)

    Hooray, Musk's hatred of public transport keeps him pushing for what's basically just another road for single-occupant (or near-single-occupant) vehicles which will just move traffic jams underground. Yeah they might be smoother thanks to computer control, but they still can't have the throughput of the same guideway used with large-capacity vehicles.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by TheSync ( 5291 )

      what's basically just another road for single-occupant (or near-single-occupant) vehicles which will just move traffic jams underground

      It's a trade-off. Instead of running one big train every 10 minutes (monorail), you are running a small vehicle nearly every second (Boring Co).

      Also by moving people as packets rather than circuits, it is easier to take people in different directions by splitting and joining the packets at junctions, rather than forcing a train stop, people get off and wait for a transfer.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AC-x ( 735297 )

        It's a trade-off. Instead of running one big train every 10 minutes (monorail), you are running a small vehicle nearly every second (Boring Co).

        The Vegas monorail apparently has trains every 4 minutes at peak, each carrying a maximum of 60 people. How long do you think it would take to load that many people into individual small capacity cars? You'll never load ~1 per second unless you have waiting platforms the size of car parks.

        Not to mention that a real metro system can have trains carrying 1,000 people arriving every 2-3 minutes. How many cars per second would that take Boring to match?

        Finally Boring has yet to demonstrate any kind of switching

      • , you are running a small vehicle nearly every second (Boring Co).

        I doubt most people can even open a car door in a second, let alone gather all their stuff and move out. Las Vegas's monorail, which was being discontinued for underuse, averages 1 person departure/4 seconds in each direction. That's in part because while the little old lady trots off, a lot of other people do at the same time. With Teslas, when the little old lady takes 30 seconds to stand up, a 30 car traffic jam starts behind her.

      • A normal subway train can run every 85 seconds [wikipedia.org] while carrying around 1000 people per train. So Musk's system, if it ever works, will be throwing away over 90% of the potential capacity of the tunnel.

    • Hooray, Musk's hatred of public transport keeps him pushing for what's basically just another road for single-occupant (or near-single-occupant) vehicles which will just move traffic jams underground. Yeah they might be smoother thanks to computer control, but they still can't have the throughput of the same guideway used with large-capacity vehicles.

      if it is designed properly, it shouldn't be too hard to add higher capacity vehicles at palces where tehy woul dget used to capacity and keep smaller ones for places they make sense. For example, to and from airports, where people have luggage, a single trip vehicle woul dmake sense; between casinos a larger capacity one might. The could even mix them up as needed, charging more for single occupancy rides; you could even add cargo delivery in the low use periods by adding loading docks, say at the conventi

      • This does make sense, but would dramatically increase station cost and complexity as you would have to include small vehicle bays instead of just a large train platform.
        There would be value in having a market-priced vehicle that used the same network as the larger trains during times of reduced capacity, and navigated optimally to your destination station (no transfers or stops where possible if there are express tracks or passing tracks in stations). The pricing for this could range from prohibitively expe

    • which will just move traffic jams underground.

      I'm confused, why are you complaining about this? Doesn't this give you more space above ground?

  • They are boring a giant hole all around Las Vegas for a "subway' system. Not using it to sneak into the vaults and steal all the money.

    Definitely the real Musk and not Clooney.

  • During peak hours it is not the speed that matters, it is the throughput. It does not matter if you wait in you car or in line for the train there.
  • If Politicians in Las Vegas were smart, they'd wait till the LVCS system was completed and fully tested to see if it met cost and performance targets before going all in with the Boring Company for a monorail replacement.

  • Boring Company Real Mission (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gmpassos ( 1193401 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:31AM (#60839930) Journal
    Let's talk about the real truth of the Boring Company: it's only a decoy to develop the technology needed in Mars to build the underground cities. Mars doesn't have a magnetic field to protect residents! Go underground is not only one more way to build a city, but also a way to protect life.

    • Why is it a good thing that a megalomaniac wants to build a private Mars colony because Earth has too many laws on what he can do to his slaves^W workers. That's supervillian shit and should be shut down, not applauded.

  • Monorail stopped at Airport back fence..corruption (Score:5, Informative)

    by takochan ( 470955 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:59AM (#60839990)

    The Vegas monorail is great, beautiful, clean and gorgeous..except for one thing..

    Though the monorail stopped at many of the hotels on the Strip...the tracks ended right at the back fence of the airport (and no, its much too far to walk from the terminal at the front side of the airport to the nearest monorail station behind the airport fence).

    As a result of this, the monorail was basically useless.. corruption by Taxis, limobus companies to make sure the last bit of track was never built to allow it to cross into the airport land to the terminal and whisk passengers to all those hotels without paying for taxi's and limobuses.. can't have that now..

    So it was nice in a way to eventually see Uber/Lyft come along and crush the taxi/limobus companies in the end anyways.

    Still, it would be nice if they finished the last leg of the monorail. Then going to the hotels would be a breeze and it would become very popular as even Uber is still a bit of a pain (the lyft / uber pickup area is on the 3rd floor of a back parking deck at the airport). Of course Taxis can still pick you up right in front of the airport and don't need to use the "parking deck" system, because you know...corruption..

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

      I think the monorail wasn't supposed to actually "go anywhere" - it wasn't a public works project. It was really just a project to link two hotel properties (at the time) together as an attraction.

      Of course, later on it was expanded, but it wasn't really a project to provide public transportation. At best, it was a system run by a private corporation to make tourist money than try to be something actually useful.

  • Public transport is not that hard (Score:3)

    by jandoe ( 6400032 ) on Thursday December 17, 2020 @03:04AM (#60840222)

    US must be the only country in the world unable to figure out how to make public transport work.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sremick ( 91371 )

      Oh we know how. It's just that in the USA, the general public interest and needs takes a far backseat to the desires of corporations and them making as much money as possible.

      One only need to look at the ineptitude of the US congress to get any sort of stimulus bill hashed out for many months for an example of this.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jandoe ( 6400032 )

        In my opinion, curbing the influence of corporations and putting general public needs first is part of the 'know how'. It's not like only US has taxi corporations or drivers complaining about bike and bus lanes. Still other countries know how to manager all this.

    • US must be the only country in the world unable to figure out how to make public transport work.

      I'm not so sure other countries have figured it out as well, beyond subsidizing it. In my expereince, most major European cities have decent public transport within the cities; but if you aren't getting to and from the city is not always easy. Even with public transport, driving at rush hour is still not easy, giving rise to using the "stau" as a reason for being late.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jandoe ( 6400032 )

        > In my expereince, most major European cities have decent public transport within the cities;

        My point exactly.

        • > In my expereince, most major European cities have decent public transport within the cities;

          My point exactly.

          and my point was they still have traffic jams and other issues. They are decent, but not great. Some US cities have decent ones as well, DC, NYC and Chicago spring to mind. The SF Bay area is nice if your going alomng the main coirrider but problemmatic otherwise.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by hawk ( 1151 )

      It just *might* have something to do with the fact that we only have half a dozen urban areas with populations as dense as the areas in which it works . . .

  • Let me know when I can beam from place to place in a particle accelerator loop. I was already shot through a dark tunnel 9 months before my birth. Anything since then is only a subway train to me.

  • So long as taxpayers aren't subsidizing this private company, Vegas should approve the expansion. Work with him to find optimal routes and whatever is needed, but no taxpayer money to a private company to develop this.

  • Let's see: (1) a town that caters to vice and corruption; (2) a crew decides to tunnel under everything to get rich; (3) preachers (and other opponents) rant and rail (pun intended) against the town; (4) the tunnels collapse (ok, not quite yet), the ground swallows up the town, the righteous prevail! Yep, reads like "Paint Your Wagon", to me. Hope I didn't spoint the ending for anyone!

  • If hacked self-driving subterranean cars full of cash in Las Vegas from every casino at the same time doesn't sound like the plot of an Ocean's movie, well...

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