A 'Debilitating' Shortage of Computer Chips is Closing Auto Factories Worldwide (msn.com) 152
"American automakers are asking the U.S. government to help solve a debilitating shortage of computer chips that is closing auto factories worldwide and could restrict production until the fall," reports Bloomberg:
The American Automotive Policy Council — a lobbying organization for General Motors Co., Ford Motor Co. and the U.S. operations of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV — is agitating with the U.S. Commerce Department and the incoming administration of President-elect Joe Biden to press Asian semiconductor makers to reallocate output away from consumer electronics and build essential chips for cars.
"We have requested that the U.S. government help us find a solution to the problem because it will diminish our production and have a negative impact on the U.S. economy until it's resolved," Matt Blunt, president of the AAPC, said in an interview Friday. "We are not primarily concerned with where blame may lie for this global shortage, if it lies anywhere, but we just want a solution. And the solution is more automobile-sector semiconductors."
The shortage forced Ford to shut a sport-utility vehicle factory in Kentucky this week, and it is closing a small-car plant in Germany for a month. Fiat Chrysler has had to temporarily stop output at plants in Mexico and Canada. More production is expected to be idled in the coming weeks.
"We have requested that the U.S. government help us find a solution to the problem because it will diminish our production and have a negative impact on the U.S. economy until it's resolved," Matt Blunt, president of the AAPC, said in an interview Friday. "We are not primarily concerned with where blame may lie for this global shortage, if it lies anywhere, but we just want a solution. And the solution is more automobile-sector semiconductors."
The shortage forced Ford to shut a sport-utility vehicle factory in Kentucky this week, and it is closing a small-car plant in Germany for a month. Fiat Chrysler has had to temporarily stop output at plants in Mexico and Canada. More production is expected to be idled in the coming weeks.
Huh? (Score:2)
Exactly what is unavailable? (Score:5, Insightful)
Every article does vague hand-waving and no specifics. WHAT IS NOT AVAILABLE? And why? Auto contracts have penalty clauses for late shipments, particularly for custom/ASIC and single-source products. This doesn't make sense.
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I'm guessing custom automotive stuff - ECUs, various body control modules - these are unique to specific automotive product lines or even specific car models and aren't sitting on a shelf ready to be ordered by the hundreds on Aliexpress.
Re: Exactly what is unavailable? (Score:2)
Re:Exactly what is unavailable? (Score:4, Interesting)
Every article does vague hand-waving and no specifics. WHAT IS NOT AVAILABLE? And why? Auto contracts have penalty clauses for late shipments, particularly for custom/ASIC and single-source products. This doesn't make sense.
You're really asking why here?
Why not, there are a few firmware engineers who still come here.
They use obsolete IC models, but made with modern fab processes, because they're cheaper than the newer designs. The problem is, there aren't multiple sources; only multiple vendors. But the different vendors contract to the same commercial fabs. So any disruption, including increased demand for more expensive ICs made at the same fabs, will create shortages. Normally this isn't a problem, because the volume of these obsolete chips is high enough to effectively lengthen the supply chain. But that has fallen down this year.
Chips from AVR and TI are still available, but automakers can't change designs without years of validation and testing. These newer chips come in way more different versions and flavors, and from dedicated fabs, so there is less chance of a disruption. The obsolete chips have converged on just the most popular models, with everybody using the same thing.
Re: Exactly what is unavailable? (Score:3)
Your final point is good but everything else is rubbish.
There is one other reason why semiconductors could be limited: Rise in demand. As it turns out there are lots of sectors with growth that require these components. Current production levels are probably not that much lower but expansion of new facilities probably took a hit during the pandemic and the rise in demanding mentioned, as AI and IOT sectors make leaps.
As for the virus prevention in China, it's excellent. I live her and feel far more safer
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There is one other reason why semiconductors could be limited: Rise in demand.
And that is the most unlikely one.
Car producers do not unexpectedly increase car production. That is planned ahead for months.
Car producers do not order s bunch a chips for the next month, they have year ahead contracts.
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Re:Huh? (Score:5, Informative)
It isn't that other markets are taking up chips that could go into automobiles, it is that other markets are taking up production capacity leaving less capacity for automotive chip manufacturing.
An implied problem here is that automakers want to pay bottom dollar for their supply. My company designs chips and we don't have problem getting production capacity because we pay what the market demands to get our chips made. Our volume is in the millions of units per month.
Because the automakers are cheap they also want to use older manufacturing processes because they are cheap. But when the auto industry slowed down due to COVID they all reduced their forecasts, leading to some of these manufacturing lines being shut down. There is no way to restart them because they relied on obsolete equipment that once scrapped can't be easily replaced.
Underpinning all of this is the lack of vision that allowed semiconductor manufacturing to be concentrated in 2-3 locations worldwide. Political leaders in Europe and America should be absolutely ashamed for not understanding how semiconductors underpin everything and allowing this critical technology to be moved outside of their borders.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Insightful)
mostly agreed with you, except:
Underpinning all of this is the lack of vision that allowed semiconductor manufacturing to be concentrated in 2-3 locations worldwide. Business leaders in Europe and America should be absolutely ashamed for not caring how semiconductors underpin everything and allowing this critical technology to be moved outside of their borders, due to short-term financial concerns.
FTFY.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
And not just business leader - how about automotive business leaders. If your business relies on a supply chain, it's your job to secure it as much as you can. Nickeling and diming your suppliers and playing games with them is fucking stupid if your entire business relies on one of them.
As much as you can rag on Tesla for, they are producing their own chips and own batteries. Their valuation always seems a little crazy to me, but then shit like this happens due to the incompetence of the existing auto manufacturers, and I have to admit that Tesla looks very well run in comparison.
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Because the automakers are cheap they also want to use older manufacturing processes because they are cheap.
You're not wrong but I think more goes into it than just that. I get this from my brother, who was a process engineer at a semiconductor company for decades, including selling chips to car companies. I suspect they want cheap but they also want robust and reliable. When you're shipping millions of cars, you have to think carefully about whether "is this new part better/cheaper enough to be worth the risk of recalls and repairs?"
In addition, new processes are often cheaper than old ones because they focus on
Huh-newer is better. (Score:2)
Because the automakers are cheap they also want to use older manufacturing processes because they are cheap.
In some ways like space vehicles. The latest and the greatest isn't always the best for a particular task. Particularly where failure can cause at best, an inconvenience, at worst injury and death. Cheaper is just a side-benefit.
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I generally agree but argue the main problem lies primarily with their forecasting. I work at a large chip company shipping millions of units per day. What we saw was, when the auto industry slowed down, auto suppliers cut their backlog to near 0. It practically fell off a cliff. Other industries cut back too since everyone expected an economic dip (if not collapse), but not nearly to the degree of automotive.
That didn't happen for a variety of reasons, so everyone had to crank back up fast. Compounding tha
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Months of travel and hundreds of years of waiting.
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> It made sense when it took months for someone from the Roman empire to travel to meet someone from the British empire.
Months of travel and hundreds of years of waiting.
Forget it, he's rolling.
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Custom microcontrollers or asics perhaps. Automotive grade chips have different vibration and temperature requirements. This isn't your old fashioned 555 timer.
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I don't know... both vibration and temperature cause significant mechanical stresses within the chip. You can offload some of that to the surrounding package, but not all. I could easily see a bias towards thicker substrates and larger feature sizes for devices intended for such high-stress environments.
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Isn't that mostly a matter of packaging? Outside of super-specialist hardware such as SOS, the chips themseleves would be the same.
Not entirely. You need to add compensation circuitry to things like current limiters if you need them to meet spec at extreme temperatures (automotive spec is from -40 to +125 C). Actually, that goes for pretty much anything analog, which includes all sensors, amplifiers, cameras, etc.
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And this circuitry is present only on chips with automotive spec packaging?
Probably not as it may be required on uses that have such requirements. The issue is what are the requirements for the chips.
Surely it doesn't hurt to have this circuitry present even when operating under average conditions.
And what about cost? It would certainly cost more to have these requirements. Using these chips in consumer electronics may be not very useful unless that gear was made to be in these conditions.
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8052 and Z80 microcontrollers. (not joking)
My products use AVR for 8bit, so no shortage. But I don't have any BMAs trying to squeeze "extra" olives out of my design, either.
Just check mouser. You cannot buy 8052 or z80 in reels anymore. Only dozens to hundreds are in stock.
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"in stock" but notice that you can't buy reels. You can only buy dozens, or hundreds.
That's the same as "out of stock" when you're doing production.
6502 doesn't have as much vendor support, but if it did, they'd use it. Anything obsolete is preferred for these parts of the system. Because "olives."
Welcome to Globalism (Score:2)
It's kinda late to worry about the lack of chip fabs in the US. Maybe call up IBM or TI and pay them for priority.
Since you have lobbying money, why not purchase politicians to remove the barriers to new domestic manufacturing?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
It's a capitalist world (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a capitalist world. Yes, in that respect it applies to Chinese companies too. If you pay the right price, there will be allocation for you - the fact that you need simpler chips at a smaller volume than, say, GPU companies, does not mean you are expected to pay less when there is a production shortage.
Also, plan ahead, it seems that when the pandemic hit, car companies halted orders for chips, so that capacity was reallocated. I don't see the car manufacturers disputing this, they are just incensed that that capacity they abandoned was allocated to the highest-profit customers (again, exactly how capitalism works), and the chip manufacturers are not bending over backwards to accommodate them now that they remembered they actually need chips to put in their cars.
Re:It's a capitalist world (Score:4, Insightful)
Most people and businesses can keep driving their existing vehicles or grab one of the zillion excellent used cars out there. Yes, that may mean occasionally idling some car factories and feeder plants. But shifting capacity away from consumer electronics which are enabling many people to keep doing their jobs from home, and keeping many more people sane via entertainment... isn't a great choice. We need laptops and VoIP phones for those who don't have them. F150 trucks? Meh. Use any existing one for the next year.
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F150 trucks? Meh. Use any existing one for the next year.
But the styling of the old trucks isn't aggressive enough. I need a taller, edgier, more menacing grill. I need bigger wheel wells.
I'm going to get PTSD if I have to continue operating such a wimpy vehicle in front of my peers.
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Then it seems like there's a market for external shells you can bolt to the outside of your truck, to trade performance for style.
Hey - it worked for the small car aftermarket a few years back. Who cares that the big grill does nothing? It keeps the economy moving.
You can even repurpose the same assembly lines - just add a trimming stage, add some extended attachment points, and skip final assembly.
I'm mildly disappointed this post ended up sounding this realistic.
Ryan Fenton
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Yes, that is a great choice, however, todays news was written by the big car lobby.
That's not what a shortage is (Score:2)
The fact is COVID is closing factories left and right and if we just say "fuck it, let 'em die" even that doesn't work because so many get sick you *still* close the factory.
This is o
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Well, most of your post is a dumpster fire of off topic and wrong, but you do have some kernels of truth in there.
the point here is that there aren't chips to buy.
Incorrect. There are plenty of chips to buy. What aren't available anymore are cheap, old chips. Why is that?
Do some research into how our food supply works. It is very much not left up to capitalism and for good reason.
This is the opposite of what the auto makers did, involving a key component in the supply chain that allows them to stay in business. Now they are starving.
They were paying for a ready supply of cheap old chips, but when COVID hit, they decided to cut their already super low costs by a f
Luckily (Score:2)
...there are car companies (or at least one) making their own chips, because they knew it would come to this.
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Who?
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They make one of their own chips. There are hundreds that they rely on that are made by other companies. Even the chip they built themselves is manufactured under contract. However that company also is likely not using as many custom auto-specific chips as other companies, which is likely what this shortage is about.
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"They make one of their own chips. "
And that chip does everything what the other companies need 7 or more of them.
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"Are you trying to say Apple? "
No Tesla makes their own chips, that's why they need only one instead of half a dozen or more in every car.
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"Are you trying to say Apple? "
No Tesla makes their own chips, that's why they need only one instead of half a dozen or more in every car.
Which also means a single point of failure if that chip is responsible for managing everything.
LOL @ "they asked the government". (Score:5, Insightful)
I thought that "the invisible hand" of the "free market" solves it all.
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It does, but the error rhetoriticians make is that the granularity for adaptation is years. [juliansimon.com]
Just in time manufacturing relies on superior planning and logistics. Oops.
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In short, they would have seen this coming, and paid for the lines to be kept ready to activate for a run, or run off extra copies to smooth future needs. They do this all the time with aging chips. It is nothing new.
Re:LOL @ "they asked the government". (Score:4, Informative)
Instead of playing games with a supplier of a critical part, just execute the contract and warehouse the excess. Build that stockpile into future orders, so there's no upset in the market. Shifting the tiniest sliver of profit from one quarter to the next is meaningless when compared to a full production stop.
As the old adage goes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
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I thought that "the invisible hand" of the "free market" solves it all.
It does, just not in the short term. You don't spin up manufacturing capability like this in a few weeks or months. Mind you until them it's precisely the free market the car companies are complaining about. They want front row tickets but are only willing to pay bottom dollar prices and now are whining to the government for help.
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In the long term, we're all dead. "Long term" just doesn't exist, just like infinity.
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I thought that "the invisible hand" of the "free market" solves it all.
That's because you neglected to actually read Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith, father of Capitalism.
The "invisible hand of the market" is a phenomenon that arises when the Government both refrains from direct participation in a market, and also regulates the market to protect small and new market players from established market powers. Then, and only then, does Capital and Competition determine the outcomes; only then does the "invisible hand" even exist. What is the invisible hand? The net sum of purchas
Easy Fix (Score:2)
Chip producers are in a cut throat business. They will produce whatever yields the best margins. Perhaps the automakers could renegotiate and offer to pay more? Or are they too American/entitled? Perhaps the CFO could offer COD terms or Net 30 instead of Net 180? But many big company CFOs would rather watch their company burn before letting a supplier dictate terms.
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They do this all the time already for aging chips. This is just a stupid mistake on their part. They want to have their low cost cake and eat it too.
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First of all, this problem is worldwide if you read the title. This story focuses specifically on what the American automakers are doing by asking for help from the government. Second, do you think that no automaker in the world offered to pay more to avoid shutting down their production lines? Again the problem is a worldwide shortage.
There are two major converging issues that are currently exacerbating the problem:
Easy Dictation. (Score:2)
But many big company CFOs would rather watch their company burn before letting a supplier dictate terms.
Walmart burning in 3...2...1.
Hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
All of the businesses are pro-free market....until it works against them. Then it's all, "Help me, oh government, help me!"
Re: Hypocrisy (Score:2)
And talk about trying to do tha yourself . . .
Especially when it's the health and life of actual human citizens in peril. Not just some dickhead's personal masturbation number, counting the amount he stole (profit) from citizens, expressed in dollars on a bank account.
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Of course they are. That's what they're supposed to do: jockey for whatever advantage they can get.
People do the same thing. When you've got a good job you're an anti-tax capitalist. As soon as you lose it, or it looks like you might lose it, you scream for government bailouts for your employer and social security for yourself.
It's a wonderful combination of greed and lack of foresight.
Used cars (Score:2)
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"a lobbying organization" he says... (Score:2)
As if that wasn't a capital crime, he acts...
Here's an idea (Score:2)
Making critical parts domestically.
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Bosch mostly makes sensor ICs, yes the automotive market is a big part of their sales, but that doesn't help with this.
Everything they make I can buy similar components manufactured in the US or Asia. That's not the stuff that has a shortage. That's all mixed circuits, with more specialized production lines.
The shortages are on the single process, high volume digital lines for processors.
Ignoring that new planned plant, Bosch is already one of the major fab operators in the world. They have more output than
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It's not just foundaries that are the problem (Score:4, Interesting)
I talked to someone in the industry last week about chip shortages, they said that it's also the testing facilities and packaging facilities. Some of these exist in other countries and depending on conditions may still be in some state of lockdown or they are behind. So even if you do get your chips baked, they might not be available.
Auto makers want US gov to solve their supply chai (Score:3)
Are all auto manufacturers globally affected? Are Japanese and German auto factories being idled? Sounds like more detail is needed. Guess I should read the actual article...
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It is easy to solve their supply chain problems here in the US.
They could buy their 8 bit micros from Microchip/Atmel, and their 16/32 bit from TI. That's what I do. No shortages. I just got a shipment from Mouser last week.
They don't need the government's help for that. They just have to improve their R&D hygiene.
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Ah, an ad hominem attack. That gives extra weight to your opinions, obviously.
Looks like one of the reasons we need a federal government is to "put up putative(?) tariffs" on products coming from countries whose governments have helped their industries so as to level the playing field for market competition. Governments playing a role in promoting/demoting private industry tends to lead to corruption, in my opinion. The people with the most connections or the most $$ find themselves getting more of a he
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That's not an ad hominem.
It was a pejorative.
Learn the difference before whining about it.
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Don't whine at me, I'm just the guy correcting your shit knowledge of logical fallacy.
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As you obviously do not know what an "ad hominem" is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik... [wikipedia.org]
we will punish you, but please do not punish us (Score:2)
"is agitating with the U.S. Commerce Department and the incoming administration of President-elect Joe Biden to press Asian semiconductor makers to reallocate output away from consumer electronics and build essential chips for cars"
In other words, it is OK for Trump's America to put restrictions on Asian tech manufacturers, but it is not ok for America to take any punishment.
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Why should Ford or GM get special treatment in the making of chips ahead of Apple or Microsoft or Cisco or any other American companies who need chips for their products?
We are not primarily concerned with where blame ma (Score:2)
"We are not primarily concerned with where blame may lie for this global shortage,"
I read this as "yes, this is completely our fault, but please ignore that."
Asking government for help? (Score:2)
When it comes to profit, it is all private, their hard work, and incredible smartness and super duper brilliance.
When it come to costs, from cleaning up pollution to covering their ass after they messed up their supply chain, after putting all their eggs in one basket, after driving to bankruptcy every American part supplier by switching to
I see no reason to halt factory (Score:2)
I don't understand why they simply don't finish the cars minus the chips. Stockpile the cars until the chips are ready. If there truly is demand for new cars, the expense of stockpiling shouldn't be high relative to selling value.
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Another strategic important industry segment (Score:2)
... that should never have left US shores. Now it's a problem and there is no easy solution. Wow, I'm sure *nobody* saw that coming.
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Now it's a problem and there is no easy solution.
Why should big companies need all their problems to have easy solutions? Why can't they just spend the money? They can have fast, good, expensive, no problem. Or they can have slow, good, cheap. And they get to choose.
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Ah the good old days of having a manual choke and fouled points. Your 2013 ford weighs twice as much as your 1950s death trap. What were you not able to maintain in your 2013 model? Other than some fancy electronics the mechanical parts are the same.
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>Please, manufacturers, go back to offering "basic" models without all this godforsaken crap in them.
Unfortunately, it seems that that is going to be a minority, especially for EVs. Looking at the VW "triplets" 2nd generation (VW E-Up/Seat Mii/Skoda Citigo IV) they received lots of flak in reviews about "having to start it with key and design being 10 years old". Hell yeah: I ordered mine as soon as possible, and I absolutely think it's wonderful. No keyless fobs or really anything fancier than basic cru
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I've heard it said that a modern car is an emissions control device with a car bolted on. A *huge* amount of the complexity of modern vehicles is necessary to keep everything running fine-tuned enough to hit the mandated emissions and efficiency standards put in place as we realized just what toxic stuff petroleum engine exhaust is, especially in the densities commonly seen in modern cities.
I have been very happy to see more vehicle manufacturers entering the low-end electric market. Because honestly elec
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Cars did not have microprocessors in them for at least 70 years.
Have you been in a car in the last 20 years? Every car since the 90s have had more and more processors in them.
Please, manufacturers, go back to offering "basic" models without all this godforsaken crap in them.
Sure, you just need to convince all car manufacturers to not only to meet current safety standards while expensively redesigning everything in the cars not to take advantage of all the improvements they have made in the last 20 years.
We really do not need to have chips in every part of the car to stop us fitting after-market replacement parts, or OEM infotainment systems that can't be updated. Just give us a double-DIN hole that complies with European interconnection standards where we can put the system we actually want. For people that can't do it, the dealer can bloody well earn his markup doing something useful.
Chips are not only in the infotainment system in a car. They are everywhere. And according to EU standards which are among the most stringent, they may be entirely req
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Wow, that's pretty dumb for bragging.
A carburetor is not a mechanical computer. That is stupid. If it was, it wouldn't have a choke. If you had the experience you claim, that would make obvious sense and require no further explanation.
Fuel injection systems do not have a shorter lifespan than a carburetor. If you think it does, it means you're bullshitting, and not comparing the cost of "rebuilding" the carburetor with the cost of replacing the fuel injectors. Once you make that comparison, you see that cus
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I have owned and worked on 4 cars from the late 60's to the late 70's. They were mechanical pieces of shit and they rode like ass. It's not just age, it's that designs, materials, workmanship, and reliability have improved light years in modern cars.
Before you start the car don't forget to pump the gas....but not too much or you'll flood the engine.
Pump the brakes going through water or else you'll lock 'em and slide out of control.
Getting those old beasts faster involved replacing seats, taking out extra
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I've never had an electronic failure on a car. I did have to replace the resistor card for the heater, but that's just a passive component.
Everybody I know that considers their car a "hobby" has a lot of electrical and electronic failures.
They also fuck with the shit all the time, and modify it, and make moronic macho statements about nothing they have ever done to a car would fuck up the electronics, or anything.
What is mind-boggling is how shitty the engines of automobile enthusiasts sound, compared to th
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" but the answer to that is: drive carefully!
Yes, and if your shitty brakes kill other people, that is not your problem.
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" but the answer to that is: drive carefully!
Yes, and if your shitty brakes kill other people, that is not your problem.
Then those people should get off the sidewalk.
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How do you propose to have a car with modern safety systems (adaptive airbags, stability control, AEB, that stupid "phone emergency services after an accident" thing that they have in the EU and all the other safety stuff that governments are mandating now) without having all those computers?
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Where I live, there are no American cars. They are too thirsty, and can't go round corners.I had to look up a 105E, that's not even an American car.
nearly 30 second 0-60 No danger of doing 60MPH round here! I thought the USA had a blanket limit of 50MPH anyway, although a friend who went to America told me the Duke of Hazzard was a documentary.
Re: Trump will be blamed for this (Score:2)
Calling for murder really makes you the "good guys".... /s
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If you think that's the issue then you've missed the point. It's not national borders or certain economies that being prioritised for chips. It's car companies not wanting to pay competitive rates with technology companies. The same would apply for local foundries as well. Even if you controlled the manufacturing plants would be support the idea of the government telling them with which customers they should work?
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One wonders who the cheap bastards were - because I rather doubt the consumer was willing to pay more for locally produced car. People love to talk about “buying local” but actions often don’t follow words; instead, people start to whine and moan about how expensive the local stuff is.
It’s not just the management, the board, or the shareholders to blame for overseas production. It’s also the employees and the consumer - we’re all in it together.
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Basically all of South Americas agriculture was run by American companies, that is why they "revolted" and set up - democratically elected!! - "socialist governments" and then got smacked by the CIA and turned into dictatorships.
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Which would work fine for the entertainment and things like that.
But the fuel injection is 10,000 psi pressurised fuel with boundaries on timing and it's electronically controlled. That means real-time programming, which isn't the kind of thing you switch out a chip for "whatever looks the same" for.
Because not only will it go wrong, but when it goes wrong, even by a small timing offset, things go boom.