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China Technology

China Orders Government, State Firms To Dump Foreign PCs (bloomberg.com) 88

Posted by msmash from the how-about-that dept.
China has ordered central government agencies and state-backed corporations to replace foreign-branded personal computers with domestic alternatives within two years, marking one of Beijing's most aggressive efforts so far to eradicate key overseas technology from within its most sensitive organs. From a report: Staff were asked after the week-long May break to turn in foreign PCs for home-made alternatives that run on operating software developed domestically, people familiar with the plan said. The exercise, which was mandated by central government authorities, is likely to eventually replace at least 50 million PCs on a central-government level alone, they said, asking to remain anonymous discussing a sensitive matter. The decision advances China's decade-long campaign to replace imported technology with local alternatives, a sweeping effort to reduce its dependence on geopolitical rivals such as the U.S. for everything from semiconductors to servers and phones. It's likely to directly affect sales by HP and Dell, the country's biggest PC brands after local champion Lenovo Group.
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China Orders Government, State Firms To Dump Foreign PCs More

China Orders Government, State Firms To Dump Foreign PCs

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  • Weaponization of everything (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SchroedingersCat ( 583063 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @10:50AM (#62509194)
    The recent events have shown that anything can be weaponized. Any company or government that is not reviewing their supply chains right now has incompetent leadership.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by cayenne8 ( 626475 )

      The recent events have shown that anything can be weaponized. Any company or government that is not reviewing their supply chains right now has incompetent leadership.

      And yet...when the US even suggests being cautious about or even rejecting China made computing and communications infrastructure products, we hear nothing but screams over here of "Racist", "Xenophobic"....even though the alerts in question are for things that DO directly effect national security.

      • Not from me, sorry. As left as I may be, if anything I'd say "well, duh, finally..."

      • Re:Weaponization of everything (Score:5, Informative)

        by mmell ( 832646 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:16AM (#62509274)

        we hear nothing but screams over here of "Racist", "Xenophobic"

        Where are you? Not in the USA, evidently. I've been an American Computer Systems Engineer for some time now. I consider myself neither liberal nor conservative; just hangin' in the middle of the road with the rest of the roadkill.

        It's guys like me that've been yelling for several years now that we need to bit the bullet and pay the higher prices for using domestic technology instead of importing it. The screams I'm hearing at work aren't about xenophobia or prejudice; they're about the cost. So that screaming you're hearing from "over there" is probably not what you think it is. Come here to the United States, maybe you'll be able to hear us better.

        The problem isn't that we mistrust the Chinese. The problem is that all of the most racist assholes here in the US are also the cheap bastards who don't care if their technology is stamped "Made in China". So, tell ya what - you go ahead and make this about racism. You're safe; I'm quite certain the Chinese have nothing to learn from your network or systems.

        This post made by a middle-of-the-road Computer Systems Engineer. I realize my opinion regarding computer technology is considerably less developed than the average /. reader; at least it's enough to let me earn a living in IT.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          People in the West have managed to get hold of some of these Chinese government certified computers. Some run home grown x86 chip, some are licenced versions of AMD CPUs with certain parts, such as the random number generator and crypto acceleration, replaced by Chinese variants.

          They are very expensive, and performance is nowhere near what AMD and Intel offer. They are fine for office use though.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by HiThere ( 15173 )

            If you want to develop your local computer industry, you need to ensure that there's a reliable market. And that the local versions are currently not top-of-the-line doesn't mean that the next generation won't be better. Good enough for the office means that they won't be paying a huge penalty for requiring the switch, as long as there's a way to get exception.

        • This post made by a middle-of-the-road Computer Systems Engineer. I realize my opinion regarding computer technology is considerably less developed than the average /. reader; at least it's enough to let me earn a living in IT.

          Don't sell yourself short... There a lot of theoretically smart, but shockingly naive people on Slashdot.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by mmell ( 832646 )
            If I jam my tongue any further into my cheek, it'll pop right through to the outside. That'll hurt.

        • I consider myself neither liberal nor conservative; just hangin' in the middle of the road with the rest of the roadkill.

          Most people considers themselves in the middle and reasonable. Not saying your not, but the declaration doesn't mean much. (Plus Europeans here will call you right-wing no matter what you think.)

        • ... cheap bastards who don't care if their technology is stamped "Made in China".

          Not just technology. Have you checked the "Made in" tags at Walmart?
          From FACT SHEET: Walmart’s Made in America Pledge [americanma...turing.org]

          95 Percent vs. 20 Percent

          Walmart China “firmly believes” in local sourcing with over 95 percent of their merchandise coming from local sources. In America, estimates say that Chinese suppliers make up 70-80 percent of Walmart’s merchandise, leaving less than 20 percent for American-made products.

        • You're safe; I'm quite certain the Chinese have nothing to learn from your network or systems.

          my god, i hope you dont work for a large company.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by tekram ( 8023518 )

        >And yet...when the US evensuggestsbeing cautious about or even rejecting China made computing and communications infrastructure products

        US taxpayer money already spent $5 billion on replacing Huawei alone. The question is why does the US taxpayer have to pay for it in a capitalist economy.

      • Links to all this outrage?

      • I have no idea why people have been upvoting you. No one is saying that. We as a country AND almost every business that takes security seriously is actively verifying supply chains for counterfeit computer products from China as well as (hopefully already) eradicating any Chinese brand technology within their networks. We've had this stance for well over a decade. Stop inventing political nonsense in your head and spewing it as fact. Especially when it is 100% the opposite of what you're saying.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mmell ( 832646 )

          I have no idea why people have been upvoting you.

          Because whether I'm right or wrong, perhaps what I've said makes sense to them? Or perhaps despite disagreeing with my post, they acknowledge that I did make a valid point worthy of discussion? Or maybe they disagree with me completely, but realize that I've honestly stated my belief in the matter and want to acknowledge my good faith participation in this discussion?

          Or perhaps it's only that I am thinking and posting clearly, instead of the online equiva

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by jbengt ( 874751 )

        And yet...when the US even suggests being cautious about or even rejecting China made computing and communications infrastructure products, we hear nothing but screams over here of "Racist", "Xenophobic".

        Who are you listening to that you're hearing nothing but that? In a few instances I've heard hear a few people say such restrictions are paranoid, or at most xenophobic, but the majority of people I hear are saying such restrictions by the US are good and necessary.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by mmell ( 832646 )
          Unfortunately, those of us who said that were answered by PHB's everywhere with cost/benefit analysis, risk/reward studies, corporate exposure and liability, and the ultimate assignment of Severity Level: 4 to the whole matter. Won't someone think of teh stockholders?

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by znrt ( 2424692 )

        some in the the us are not just suggesting exactly that all the time, but making wild claims to blame china for anything. and when they do, we call them fud spreaders and fear mongers, which a pretty apt term. sorry if that bothers you (or your 4 alts that moderated you insightful). it's actually quite pitiful. us hegemony has ended, just face it :-D

        or, whatever, have fun with your propaganda crusade, nobody cares.

      • we hear nothing but screams over here of "Racist", "Xenophobic"....

        I see your BS translator is broken, here let me translate that for you: "Let us profit, damned be the consequences."

        In the US, corporations have a nasty habit of assuming they have unfettered access to everything / everywhere / everyone without consequence. If they can get Chinese parts cheaper than the US parts, they will demand the use of the Chinese parts. Their "duty" to profit for their shareholders is all that matters to them. In China, and indeed most other areas of the world, this "profit above all

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Sloppy ( 14984 )

      anything can be weaponized

      Dwarf Fortress has been preparing us for years.

  • I take it that there is no chip shortage in China?

    • Even if there were, it would be a simple matter for the Chinese government to compel some company to quickly ramp up new factories. The chip shortage is not rocket science, it's politics and economics.

    • It's not a chip shortage, it's more a shipping shortage [foley.com].

      The problem is less one where factories can't produce in mass quantity, the problem is rather one that we can't get the crap shipped in quantity. So, technically, whatever offers the highest rates get shipped. The rest, well, may it rot in store.

    • Oh there is a chip shortage in general but the other issue which China wants to ignore is that they simply cannot make the chips themselves. For example, China does not make the equivalent of latest generation AMD Ryzen or Intel Core CPUs.

      • There's no question that the latest and greatest tech is what you want when doing a lot of number crunching, so they're still going to want our equipment for compute farms and the like. But you definitely don't need the new hotness to do 99.99% of what office workers do. Most of their tasks are frankly doable on antiques if you just security updated the old software instead of always insisting on something new, with ever more layers of abstraction between the user and the hardware sapping performance. Yes,

        • But you definitely don't need the new hotness to do 99.99% of what office workers do.

          From this review [tomshardware.com] back in 2020, China's best x86 processor in 2020, Zhaoxin KX-U6780A, was bested by AMD's lowly A-10 9700 (2017) while it consumed more power. Also to note AMD's processor used a 28nm node while the KX-U6780A used TSMC's 16nm fab. So there is a lot of chip design work to be done. Linus Tech Tips in their review [youtube.com] compared the 2020 KX-U6780A processor equivalent to 2012-2013 Intel ones in gaming. If you want the "new hotness" from China it is going to be nearly 8 years old which is somewhat an

          • Linus Tech Tips in their review compared the 2020 KX-U6780A processor equivalent to 2012-2013 Intel ones in gaming

            That's my point. If you can run games from 2013 then you can run productivity software from 2022. Even pretty slow computers by modern standards are screamin' demons when it comes to mundane tasks like running Office applications. This isn't a mandate to all Chinese to dispose of all non-Chinese computers, this is specifically for "central government agencies and state-backed corporations" which means gaming is not a primary concern, or a secondary or tertiary one either.

            There are going to be a few users ac

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mmell ( 832646 )
        Do they make chips that can guide their next generation of silkworm missiles? This is China we're talking about here, I don't think the consumer market is their top priority.
        • Do they make chips that can guide their next generation of silkworm missiles?

          Perhaps they can reach out to Ukraine who seems to have no issues hitting Russian ships with their homegrown Neptune missiles. For those who might have lost count, this is the second large Russian warship [mirror.co.uk] to be struck and set on fire in about three weeks.

  • Or aren't Apple devices mostly made in China anymore?

    • Apple devices maybe assembled partially in China these days but their chips are definitely not made in China. They are made in Taiwan.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by splutty ( 43475 )

        Well.. China considers Taiwan to be China.. So..

        I mean, the Chinese government is really good at mental gymnastics, so who knows :)

  • goes inside a PC? If not they're wasting their time aren't they? No point having a box with a "Made in China" label on it if some of the internals were designed or manufactured elsewhere.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by tekram ( 8023518 )
      China capture 9% of the global semiconductor market in 2020, surpassing Taiwan for two consecutive years. The only reason China hasn't surpassed Taiwan in CPU manufacturing is due to the lack of access to the latest equipment from ASML which is a Dutch company but subject to US law on banned equipment sales to China.
    • China makes x86 CPUs but the last I read their 2020 CPUs barely beat Intel's 2013 CPUs. So China has a ways to go. My understanding is that China has capacity to make all their components with a concerted effort however their PCs will not be leading edge. For example, China has only 1 or 2 EUV ASML machines and many feel those were just purchased for bragging rights as 1 or 2 machines are not enough for any reasonable production.

      • China makes x86 CPUs but the last I read their 2020 CPUs barely beat Intel's 2013 CPUs. So China has a ways to go.

        For the vast majority of business uses, I wouldn't think this is much of an issue (pragmatically speaking). CPU capability has easily outstripped what most software and OSes demand of it for the past 10-15 years.

        • In the West one of the major problems going forward is Windows increasing hardware requirements. China might not have the same issues if they use their own OS (based on BSD or Linux of course.)

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      No. You've got to start somewhere, and it's reasonable to start with things that are relatively cheap and quick. Making the boxes is fairly cheap and quick. Then, when you're ready, you move further back in the supply chain. Eventually you're making the whole thing, though possibly not state of the art. And you keep improving each step.

      This is the way Apple developed.

  • Taiwan is the primary, nearly only, source for advanced chips. China is ramping up their own production but that will take time to catchup. They need to increase demand for domestic production and reduce reliance on TSMC if they want to actually take over the island. Because an invasion will likely rubbleize the existing TSMC plants on the island, which are the only source for 3nm and primary source for 4nm chips.

    • While TSMC is the leader right now, Samsung (South Korea) and Intel (US) are not content to let TSMC continue their lead.

  • Welcome to the new dark age. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jellomizer ( 103300 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:09AM (#62509252)

    When Rome fell, a lot of the nations taking its spot, decided if Rome Fell, then all the aspects of Roman Civilization was just wrong. Which included a lot of sanitary traditions, representative government, trade...

    Globalization is falling, as it had some aspects that were not allowed to be fixed, and other aspects that were abused to maximize profits. However, as governments realize that Globalization isn't as good as it was thought to be, they are basically tossing out many of its good aspects as to try to prevent its negative aspect.

    The idea that China, US, EU, UK, India... Can do it alone without extra help is going to be far more painful and not productive. Where progress not being shared will not grow and expand equally, So while China may have the Best PC, America may have the Best Smart Phones, and Europe may have the Best Servers... So as one technology improves, not being shared, they will not learn lessons learned from other countries and technologies.

    • I think this is becoming tit-for-tat since the US and other nations are starting to rebuke Chinese telecom tech. I do see more isolationist policies ahead but the moves of the CCP in market control and the lockdown responses by their people have me thinking that they're nervous. China has only boomed at double digit growth because of it's exports and tight control of its population. Now the CCP wants to go on this massive infrastructure build-out while they still have entire cities shutdown? Their growth is

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      It can work, for example in the EU. Perhaps it needs to grow more like the EU did, with neighbouring states joining a fairly tightly coupled bloc, rather than just trying to liberalise trade. The EU is about much more than just trade in goods.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      China is probably large enough to make it work. The US nearly was, and so was Europe (nearly).

      That said, it's not clear that they intend to cut globalization on non-strategic industries. Or they may be looking to build an export based market, though it's less clear what they could import that wasn't strategic.

    • The idea that China, US, EU, UK, India... Can do it alone without extra help is going to be far more painful and not productive.

      yes, but it may be interesting anthropologically, as isolation tends to have groups of people develop a strong unique flavor (e.g., look at native dress of peoples 100 or 200 years ago, before mass communication/transportation).

      many countries will be reinventing the wheel. it'll be fun looking at all the different wheels, and the subsequent carts upon the wheels.

    • When Rome fell, a lot of the nations taking its spot, decided if Rome Fell, then all the aspects of Roman Civilization was just wrong. Which included a lot of sanitary traditions, representative government, trade...

      I'm a history buff, but I've never run across this. I'm not disputing you, but if you have a few sources for this I'd love to have them. Live and learn, and this is a great opportunity to learn.

    • Globalization is falling, as it had some aspects that were not allowed to be fixed, and other aspects that were abused to maximize profits. However, as governments realize that Globalization isn't as good as it was thought to be, they are basically tossing out many of its good aspects as to try to prevent its negative aspect.

      It's working as intended. If you don't have anything to take away, sanction, tax, etc., then what do we do when we disagree, fight it out? Turning those knobs punitively isn't failing, it's what's supposed to happen. It makes war more expensive. If a trade deal is hurting your economy, you fix it with non-punitive measures, you don't stop all trade. This seems like basic common sense. With no globalization, what is that, no trade at all? You have to figure out how to trade with other countries, that'

  • So does this only pertain to biological implants?

  • "Foreign Branded" (Score:4, Interesting)

    by jacks smirking reven ( 909048 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:25AM (#62509324)

    I feel like that phrase is doing a ton of lifting here, especially as so many OEM's that supply parts for just about every PC and embedded system are US, Taiwan and Korean based.

    Asus, Foxconn, Gigabyte, Corsair, Crucial, Seasonic, Quanta, Pegatron, Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Broadcom, Realtek, Samsung, TI, Supermicro, Seagate, Western Digital, American Megatrends, Compal, it can go on and on.

    Unless they are going to restrict the supply chain from all these vital pieces and manufacturers this is more of a branding move than an actual technical one. Would it be possible to build a PC without some components coming from a non-domestic nation for any country on earth at this point?

    • Lenovo is the only China brand that I can think of, offhand that can handle such a big customer.

      Maybe Huawei as well (assuming CPUs they need are not sanctioned by the US)?

      End of the day, due to how the supply chains are, no matter what you are getting, you are going to get components made in various countries. Unless China intends to go all in on RISC based CPUs manufactured at 10-22nm nodes (I think they just about to get to 7nm nodes, not sure if they can be used in a big scale yet).

      Then they may probabl

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mmell ( 832646 )
        I'm sure they're planning to push this "all the way". They now know enough to create VLSI circuits using photolithography. They now know enough to understand the operation of current CPU designs, possibly even well enough to begin designing their own. We can no longer banish them to the Industrial Age by cutting off their supply of technology; we have taught them to make fire. I'm absolutely certain they took extensive notes.
        Even if their technical expertise never equals ours, it will almost certainly
    • China claims Taiwan, as such, will the Chinese Government accept companies like Asus and MSI?
  • 99% of the parts were made in China, save for some CPUs made in Taiwan. And their assembled in Mexico or Indonesia. And the software's mostly Microsoft

    Seems kind of silly nationalism, but I guess it'll mean less currency flowing out of the country.

  • back in 2018 Supermicro was alleged to have been "owned":

    https://www.theregister.com/20... [theregister.com]

    Was a time, I'd poo poo that idea. Seen more since then.

    Now the Chinese say that foreign systems may be suspect... Wonder why they might think such a thing.

    Thing is, the article for this,says Lenovo is A-OK. Of course it it... It's wholly Chinese.
    And it's positioned in exactly the same uses as the "bugged" SMC systems.

    So. SMC is "obviously" bad... use Lenovo instead.

    Game
    Point
    Match

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by HiThere ( 15173 )

      A quite plausible scenario. I'm thinking it's more about building up the local industrial economy, but that doesn't exclude your scenario.

  • An added bebefit (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jenningsthecat ( 1525947 ) on Friday May 06, 2022 @11:50AM (#62509416)

    The decision advances China's decade-long campaign to replace imported technology with local alternatives, a sweeping effort to reduce its dependence on geopolitical rivals...

    I can't help thinking that this will also hugely advance China's campaign to monitor, spy upon, propagandize, and control its citizens. I'm pretty sure that's not a coincidence; I also wonder if it might even be the primary motivator, with reduced dependence on other countries being a secondary concern but a plausible justification.

  • ...while I completely agree with the expungement of Huawei and personally wouldn't use Chinese tech if you gave it to me free (maybe especially if you did), I can't blame them for assuming that every OTHER country is trying to do to them what they are freely and aggressively doing to everyone.

    Because, I'm a home-teamer as much as anyone, but let's be honest, the NSA and friends have probably themselves been doing exactly what China's doing, for decades. There's so many examples of stuff that's been reveale

  • On the other side: All that spyware the US government was/is afraid of, China WANTS in its computers. They can then know what is going on with all of its employees.

  • Is there anything other than Linux that the Chinese can hope to build an actual working OS on in a short period of time? Or will they use all the source code they've stolen over the past decade and magically produce Xi-ndows?

  • It's pretty simple in my mind. China is anticipating aggressive military actions and they do not want to be left high and dry the type of sanctions that their buddy Russia is currently experiencing.
  • So they suspect everyone is that pathetic.

  • Say about China whatever you want, but kicking out the dependency on Microsoft is actually a good idea, and they might just give their own economy a boost.

    Besides, they probably have not forgotten the scandal Edward Snowden triggered. So, don't blame them for being paranoid.

    Also, this will probably mean that there will come more contributions to Linux & friends, resulting in higher quality software (more, better alternatives to the Microsoft stuff).

    Everybody happy... except for Microsoft.

  • That's what it sounds like to me.

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