Burnout Turned Twitch Streamers' Dreams of Playing Games Into Nightmares 85
An anonymous reader quotes a report from NPR: Stephen Flavall makes his living by playing video games to an audience of thousands on Twitch. When he first started streaming, he only had about fifteen people at a time watching him. He liked how he could engage with a small community, cracking jokes while people cheered him on. Unfortunately, the vibe changed as his popularity grew. "Around 200 viewers was when it started getting exhausting," says Flavall. "Now I have like 2,000 viewers [at a time] and when that many people are asking you questions and telling you what to do, it becomes absolutely unmanageable. I started having anxiety, bordering on full panic attacks." Flavall's gotten to a better place now, but his story isn't unique. Burnout is on the rise across the country, even for those whose work is -- quite literally -- play.
While professional video gaming can sound like an enviable gig, it's not too different from being a performer. Streamers have an audience, a persona, and act in the same role for long hours. Streamers can't really take breaks, either. They risk their fanbase losing interest during a stream and logging off. Since they're self-employed, they can't rely on paid vacation, or sick leave. That leaves streamers wondering how to navigate making an income that isn't an official "job." [...] Twitch audiences can also demand that streamers play games they may have soured on. Haelian, another Twitch streamer known for playing rogue-likes, got tired of trying to escape the underworld of Hades day-in and day-out. But that game made his stream popular, and his fans weren't pleased. [...]
Twitch's competitive culture also fans the flames. It's not just that a streamer can tire of a game or rude viewers; they can also fall victim to a pervasive "always on" mentality. Taylor Chou, Director of Talent Management at Evil Geniuses, an esports and gaming entertainment company, says that Twitch can be a pretty toxic work environment. "When you're a streamer, you truly know that every single second that you are not online, grinding, posting, streaming -- somebody [else] is," Chou says. "That's a lot of pressure for people to learn how to manage." Chou also says that communicating with your audience and having a support system is key to mitigating streamer burnout. "Most of the best ways to deal with burnout start with a support system," says Chou. "When you're a streamer, make sure that your community has a sense that this is a person they're watching." But that kind of structure can take years to build, and while fans have rallied around streamers, they can just as often stress or even harass them. That leaves many burnt out and on their way to signing off for good. Further reading: Deadly Swatting Increasing On Twitch; Alarmed Streamers Press For Change (Ars Technica)
While professional video gaming can sound like an enviable gig, it's not too different from being a performer. Streamers have an audience, a persona, and act in the same role for long hours. Streamers can't really take breaks, either. They risk their fanbase losing interest during a stream and logging off. Since they're self-employed, they can't rely on paid vacation, or sick leave. That leaves streamers wondering how to navigate making an income that isn't an official "job." [...] Twitch audiences can also demand that streamers play games they may have soured on. Haelian, another Twitch streamer known for playing rogue-likes, got tired of trying to escape the underworld of Hades day-in and day-out. But that game made his stream popular, and his fans weren't pleased. [...]
Twitch's competitive culture also fans the flames. It's not just that a streamer can tire of a game or rude viewers; they can also fall victim to a pervasive "always on" mentality. Taylor Chou, Director of Talent Management at Evil Geniuses, an esports and gaming entertainment company, says that Twitch can be a pretty toxic work environment. "When you're a streamer, you truly know that every single second that you are not online, grinding, posting, streaming -- somebody [else] is," Chou says. "That's a lot of pressure for people to learn how to manage." Chou also says that communicating with your audience and having a support system is key to mitigating streamer burnout. "Most of the best ways to deal with burnout start with a support system," says Chou. "When you're a streamer, make sure that your community has a sense that this is a person they're watching." But that kind of structure can take years to build, and while fans have rallied around streamers, they can just as often stress or even harass them. That leaves many burnt out and on their way to signing off for good. Further reading: Deadly Swatting Increasing On Twitch; Alarmed Streamers Press For Change (Ars Technica)
boohooo... (Score:2, Insightful)
Get a real job instead of this....
you think you'll be doing this until your 65, and people would actually want to watch anyone that old playing video games???
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Does this disdain apply to all types of spectator sports, activities, or entertainment services? Is it just twitch gamers who inspire your rancor? And why them?
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Mashing buttons isn’t a sport.
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Why? It certainly involves physical skill
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Sport involves physical effort, not just skill otherwise chess would be a sport too.
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"Any activity that uses physical exertion or skills competitively under a set of rules that is not based on aesthetics."
Yes. Chess is a sport and the high level players burn significant calories during a match. Ballet is not normally a sport, but requires more physical exertion than golf or snooker.
The origins of the word for "sport" roughly points to something that amuses and entertains. A bit generic, but over time there has been consensus over what the word sport can refer to. A finally the people that w
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Chess is not a sport, its a competitive activity.
"high level players burn significant calories during a match"
BS. Its been proven the brains metabolic activity barely changes no matter how hard someone is thinking. Any extra calories they burn off will be down to stress.
" but over time there has been consensus over what the word sport can refer to"
And that concensus is that an activity requires above normal physical activity to be a sport. Otherwise you could call exams a sport.
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Chess is not a sport, its a competitive activity.
And I'm telling you it's a sport.
Not that I'm willing to defend Sapolsky, it is a well known publication that chess players can burn up to 6,000 calories a day [espn.com].
Your mistake is assuming that only the brain is involved.
And that concensus is that an activity requires above normal physical activity to be a sport
No, that's not actually the consensus.
Have a nice day.
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Chess is not a sport but believe what you like if it makes you feel better when sitting on the sofa eating cakes.
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I offered a definition from a dictionary. If you want to continue with proof by assertion, well I already beat you at that. I will admit that following up with ad hominem was a classic move to signal you concession without losing face.
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From google "sport"
See definitions in:
all
sport
biology
noun
noun: sport; plural noun: sports
1.
an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
-----------------
https://www.merriam-webster.co... [merriam-webster.com]
(1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure
(2) : a particular activity (such as an athletic game) so engaged in
HAND.
I win again. (Score:2)
"(countable) Any activity that uses physical exertion or skills competitively under a set of rules that is not based on aesthetics." -- sport, n (Wiktionary) [wiktionary.org]
"activity that you do for pleasure and that needs physical effort or skill, usually done in a special area and according to fixed rules" -- sport, n. (Oxford Learners Dictionary) [oxfordlear...naries.com]
"An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively" -- sport, n. (Farlex Free Dictionary) [thefreedictionary.com]
Re: I win again. (Score:2)
Seems to be 50/50 and/or skill according to the dictionaries. But most people would consider sport requires physical exercise. Obviously couch potatoes want to pretend they're doing a sport while sitting on their backsides so dont like this definition.
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But most people would consider sport requires physical exercise.
Most people you know or just people in general? After all this I don't see why you believe there is a consensus on the definition of "sport" exists, nor why you think your position is the correct one.
Obviously couch potatoes want to pretend they're doing a sport while sitting on their backsides so dont like this definition.
Your theory of motive doesn't have any evidence. And of course reeks of contempt for any opposing views. I suspect this has to do with you realizing your arguments are weak but are neither able to concede the point nor defend your own position. Either your ignorance or arrogance is holding you back.
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I wouldn't say chess is a sport because it's entirely mental, but gaming typically involves skills in speed, reflexes, timing, and accuracy which do have a physical component.
Take the Olympic sport of shooting as an example - many of the same skills involved
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Moderated wrong post; replying to remove.
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Mashing buttons isn’t a sport.
Maybe, maybe not. It's a job, though. Just look at all those typists out there.
Re: boohooo... (Score:2)
"Maybe, maybe not. It's a job, though. Just look at all those typists out there."
Regular or the one handed kind?
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Mashing buttons isn't playing the piano either I guess.
If you bothered to watch some of these guys you would see that they are very highly skilled. Not just good at the game, but good at maintaining focus and motivation to keep going in the face of adversity. As an example, there are only a couple of dozen people in the entire world who have beaten some of the Mario ROM hacks.
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Playing the piano isn't a sport. Sport involves physical effort as well as skill. Something sofa bound lard butts conveniently like to forget when they pretend their chosen seat bound activity is a "sport". No, it isn't.
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Would you say that darts isn't a sport, or that it requires more effort than mashing buttons for 8+ hours a day?
The current world record for Punch Out took the holder over 36,000 attempts to attain.
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No I don't personally consider darts a sport, its a competitive activity. Though it requires more effort than using a joystick.
No idea wtf punch out is.
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Well if the progressive playbook works as well as it claims to, they just need to join a labor union and then collectively bargain with their viewers by having the union negotiate on their behalf. That will solve everything.
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I think you missed the part where Twitch steamers are not employees. They're self-employed entertainers, and that has always been a tough way to make a living.
The "far-left" answer to this is something like UBI, so people who want to be self-employed can supplement their OnlyFans income with magic government money. Unfortunately, that scheme requires a bit of suspension of disbelief when it comes to the workings of supply and demand, and inflation.
Eventually, automation will eliminate a bunch of jobs and
Re:boohooo... (Score:5, Interesting)
It applies to anyone who makes money doing something then realizing it requires a lot more hard work and dedication and then complaining about it.
The guy who cuts lawns for a living has to work in the heat to make a buck. He knows it's hard work and if he wants to eat, he has to keep mowing. Complain all he wants, you probably won't show much sympathy for him.
Likewise, the youtuber who has to constantly make new content every week in order to keep getting recommended - same thing.
There are very few jobs on this planet that one could work for a bit then sit back and watch the money come in without doing anything.
Want to stream playing videogames all day? Go right ahead, just realize it's a job and you'll have to work hard at it - you can't just stop and relax.
It's why it's a job. Now, some people are happy in their jobs, and often do what they do at work at home and enjoy it as a hobby as well. The rest of us know we have to keep working if we want to keep paying the bills.
So that's where disdain comes in. Burnout? You aren't special - people burn out all the time doing their regular jobs. If you burn out playing video games, then get a job doing something else, it's called a career change. The disdain is because these people seem to believe that it's "not a job", when it's really is a job, and like all jobs, has a chance for burnout and many other things that anyone who has a job already knows about.
You'll find sympathy hard to come by if you complain that you need to play video games for 10 hours a day and you're so sick and tired of it but need it for the money. You're just echoing what a good chunk of the working stiffs out there complain about so what makes you special? Don't like it? Do something else.
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They are not wrong for having found a way to make a living playing games, they are wrong for thinking that playing games for money is the same as playing games for fun.
When I play soccer it's something very different than when Ronaldo is running out onto the court. One of us can just say "ain't feeling like it today" and be done with it. Guess who that may be.
Re:boohooo... (Score:5, Insightful)
I really doubt any of them thought playing for money, was the same as playing for fun.
I'm quite certain that most of them did. Just look at what's going on at shows like American Idol and the like where people want to be "stars" without understanding what it actually entails. Look at how many people try to be influenza today, it's almost like the new version of "I wanna be a rock star". And it looks awesome. Endorse some crap to unsuspecting teens that think you're some kind of friend and get money for it. Get invited to fly about the world and see cool places, get all the cool shit for free just because you hawk it to your "followers". Until you realize that this isn't something you can do anymore but something you must do. That it's no longer that you can fly to awesome places but that you must do it, and at the time and conditions that someone else dictates.
Rock star, influenza, model, streamer, YouTuber, actor, magician... there's a long list of professions that people think are awesome because these people look like they can do things, and get money for doing those things, that you'd probably also like doing. What very few people realize is that it stops being fun and starts being a burden when you no longer can do them but must do them.
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Yeah, these people are a disease.
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Whatever it may be called in English.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
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What do you think their current audience will be doing in the intervening time? Staying young?
Boohoo (Score:5, Insightful)
Turns out that when you turn your hobby into a job, it actually becomes a job. For those who don't know what the difference between a hobby and a job, former is something you are willing to do for free, whereas latter you require people to pay you for to do.
And if you turn a hobby into a job, unless you're in the absolutely tiny minority of total workaholics that just love working all the time every day, you're going to burn out.
And streaming is a hypercompetitive job nowadays that a lot of young people think it their dream job and going into it. Just like FinTech was for last two decades for example. Same problem there, you want to go into hypercompetitive job that everyone wants to do, expect to work all the time every day or be one of the majority that can't compete.
Re:Boohoo (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Boohoo (Score:5, Insightful)
It's the same now, but the Rock Star is replaced with Twitch Streamer. We still need fast food workers.
Re: Boohoo (Score:2)
Oh yeah, the 1980s. When we were bombarded with cheap toy synths, cartoons about fictional rich rock stars, Bill and Ted, and even a 976 number that lead kids to believe "You can be in the Chuckles band, just sing into the telephone." Then the 90s came around and by the end of that decade "lEaRn tO cOdE aNd yOu cAn bE a sOoPuR rIcH fAmOuS dOt cOmM3R!". Sigh...
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Streaming often gets people in young, before they have that figured out. Roblox is even worse, there is a lot of illegal child labour on there, but Twitch isn't immune. Or YouTube.
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When I was a kid, we all believed that we could become literal rock stars and live the life of sleeping all day, and partying all night. It wasn't long before we realized that it took a lot of practice, work, and commitment to even get good, and then there was no guarantee that you would become famous. Reality eventually sets in, and you look for a job that you can actually do, like become a mattress salesman, and give up on your dreams.
Now the hopeful just whore themselves out on some washed up producers reality TV show.
Rockstar has now joined the likes of Telephone Sanitiser and Door to Door Salesman as a dead profession.
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I know. Once I scored four touchdowns in a single game.
Now I sell shoes.
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We don't "tell kids that" because it should be self-evident: if you do something as a job, then it is a job with everything that comes with that. The one thing I will give them is that I don't think all the work that goes into being a streamer is necessarily self-evident. It's more than just streaming games you enjoy. It's building a community, it's setting a schedule so that people know when they can watch you, it's working with the platform (Twitch in this case) to handle monetization and their advertisin
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We don't "tell kids that" because it should be self-evident: if you do something as a job, then it is a job with everything that comes with that
Kids aren't born with that knowledge, for a lot they won't even have had a paying job outside of helping out around the neighborhood so it's all new to them. There aren't really classes on the gig economy so it's a learning experience.
The problem is that kids these days aren't taught critical thinking skills,
I guess the solution is to vote for democrats so that critical thinking skills get taught more
So-called "swattings" are a problem because we've "defunded the police" so they don't have the resources to properly look into everything.
Seems like quite the opposite - the police have been over-militarized and are all too eager to break down someone's door.
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You said 'we', so I take it you're an Italian immigrant?
https://www.npr.org/sections/c... [npr.org]
https://www.northjersey.com/st... [northjersey.com]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]
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I take offense. The proper term use yous.
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What's wrong with Christopher Columbus?!??
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I think the problem is that we don't tell kids that. There's lots of things we lie to kids about because adults suck.
We tell our kids this stuff constantly, but in a constructive way. I'm not sure if you're aware, but teenagers tend to think their parent's are too stupid to know how the world works. "Everything they do is going to be great because they'll do it better than than previous generation" is often their mindset. The trick is to encourage their aspirations without allowing them to be sucked in by stories of money, influence, and glamor.
Right now one of the biggest problems parents have is childless adults trying
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Indeed.
* Edison was an asshole [theoatmeal.com] who electrocuted an elephant [wikipedia.org] in an attempt to discredit Tesla's superior AC power for transmission.
* Einstein was a cheating [medium.com] misogynist [nytimes.com] who plagiarized [gsjournal.net] FitzGerald, Hilbert, Larmor, Lorentz, Minkowski, and Poincare.
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Still, one can't help but empathize in the seduction that a hobby offers when it begins paying the bills. My hobbies always transition to obsessions which inevitably leads to a critical mass...
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And if you turn a hobby into a job, unless you're in the absolutely tiny minority of total workaholics that just love working all the time every day, you're going to burn out.
I did it, and its possible without being a workaholic (though I am I am not a TOTAL one) my favorite things since a kid in the 80's was electronics and computers / programming, and they still are.
At work I deal with automated systems, robots and mainly production testing of electronic assemblies in the automotive industry, after the kids go to bed I slip out to the garage and play with 3d printers, toy CNC machines and tinker with old video game systems and computers (think SNES or an Atari XE)
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Same here. I imagine it is because electronics/computers/mechanics all added up is such a broad field that there's enough space for projects to have a small enough overlap that it feels like doing separate things; compare that to e.g. the streamer who is pigeonholed in playing the same game over and over again.
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yea, I think the better message here is "don't turn your escapes into a full time job" even then critics do it all the time
Re: Boohoo (Score:2)
I think this story is a little different than the classic hobby becomes a job argument. I think the problem here is that the twitch streamer in question has to try way too hard to grow his numbers. Maybe heâ(TM)s just not that good of a twitch streamer.
There is actually a lot more irony involved here because a twitch streamer depends on views for their success. In fact, the more views they have, the more money they make. Therefore, increasing your viewership by an order of magnitude is not only gratify
and, so? (Score:2, Troll)
Since they're self-employed, they can't rely on paid vacation, or sick leave.
We're supposed to feel sorry for them because of this? Seriously? Anyone who is self-employed faces this particular challenge, and there are plenty of people who work as consultants and are not facing burn-out because they chose more wisely. If you're self-employed your retirement plan is also only up to you. And you don't get things like maternity leave. Or paid public holidays. Or health care (in the US at least). Or job security. And making sure you are paying your income taxes on time through th
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Yeah it kind of sucks, even worse than freelancing since they have to build an audience and they lose that the more time they spend away.
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Well, nothing wrong with being and indie 1099 contractor. MANY of us do it and earn very good bill rates, that even after planning for medical insurance, retirement, vacation and sick days off...you can still come home WELL into the 6 figure zone.
You just have to put on your Big Boy pants and plan, do paperwork, etc.
It's usually best to incorporate yourself too...I wen
Do what other burned out people do (Score:1)
Find a different job. There are a lot of them.
Good (Score:2)
I know this may seem like radical advice... (Score:2)
...so...just don't do that for your living?
I mean, if it's so miserable - don't do it.
How hard is that?
Beware turning your hobby into a job (Score:5, Insightful)
It sounds like a dream, doesn't it? Getting paid for doing something you like doing. Until you realize that it usually entails something you don't like. Programming is a cool pastime 'til you learn that if you do it professionally, there's deadlines to be met and specifications to be fulfilled. Sports is a great leisure activity until you realize that if you do it professionally, it's no longer your choice when and where you play it. Making music is entertaining and relaxing, but if you want to do it professionally, you find out that you no longer play what you like but what the audience pays you for.
If you want money for something you do, you're no longer the one calling the shots. The person throwing money at you is. And that can very quickly turn something you love into something you hate.
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Mod this up!
Best reply thus far.
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He who pays the piper calls the tunes...
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Someone once told me something early on that has always stuck with me: "Every job requires you to shovel sh*t, get used to it."
It doesn't matter what you choose to do for a living, at some point there is some element of that thing that *will* become monotonous, tedious and not fun.
The trick is to keep your focus on the bigger picture, set reasonable goals, keep your expectations just high enough to stay slightly uncomfortable and take breaks before you need them for slightly longer than you think you need t
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I wish I would have learned this lesson at a younger age. I'm in IT because I had computers as a hobby. Holy fucking nightmare. Never, EVER turn your hobby into a job unless you want to hate that hobby later.
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Agree 100%.
The sad thing is that we then throw the age-old idiom at our kids: If you do what you love, you will never have to work a day in your life
Hate to break it to you, but... (Score:2)
Playing games is not the problem here (Score:2)
This tool didn't figure out how to use the tools available to make the workload manageable. Why would you even try to pay attention to everything 2,000 people said? Did he really set their expectations that high?
Burnout or become Unpopular ! (Score:2)
True Of Most Content Creators (Score:2)
Wait, 8 hour gaming marathons every day is bad? (Score:2)
I thought this would be obvious. Playing the same game every day for 8 hours is probably going to burn you out. It's not likea job where you need to come up with new solutions constantly. You're solving the same problem over and over again.
More obvious than people getting sick of watching this stuff. Personally. I enjoyed watching things like glitches.
meh (Score:1)
"Now I have like 2,000 viewers [at a time] and when that many people are asking you questions and telling you what to do, it becomes absolutely unmanageable. I started having anxiety, bordering on full panic attacks."
this is more a story about how naive and fickle one random guy on the internet is, the fact hes on twitter is coincidental