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Transportation Power

Subway To Build EV Charging Playgrounds, 'Oasis' For Diners (businessinsider.com) 155

Subway said on Tuesday it plans to add charging parks to select restaurants. "Dubbed Subway Oasis, the EV parks will be outfitted with 'charging canopies with multiple ports, picnic tables, Wi-Fi, restrooms, green space, and even playgrounds,'" reports Insider. From the report: Subway is working with EV tech startups GenZ EV Solution and RED E Charging to open these parks. Additionally, the company said that Subway is opening smaller fast-charging EV stations at new or newly remodeled restaurants across the US this year. "On average, the smaller-format, fast EV chargers will offer a 120-mile charge in 17 minutes for approximately $20," the company said. Once open, EV customers might also get the added perk of receiving Subway discounts while waiting for their cars to charge, the company said. Subway did not specify how much it would cost consumers to charge their cars at their new charging stations, nor did they mention where and when the first Subway Oasis would be built.
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Subway To Build EV Charging Playgrounds, 'Oasis' For Diners

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  • Seems a bit steep... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    the smaller-format, fast EV chargers will offer a 120-mile charge in 17 minutes for approximately $20

    Let's see... If a gallon of diesel is priced $5 and I can go 40 miles per gallon, it would only cost me $15 in fuel to go 120 miles. But if I use my EV, I can pay $20 to go the same distance?

    It gets worse when you consider my old Volkswagen turbo diesel actually gets 49 miles per gallon on the freeway, diesel is currently priced at $4 a gallon, and my 14.5 gallon tank gives me a driving range of 600 miles between stops for fuel.

    Then if we also add in the cost of replacing my LEAF's traction battery every te

    • by Rei ( 128717 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @06:34AM (#63313893) Homepage

      I always find it bizarre how people want to budget in the cost of a battery swap for an EV - parts that are warrantied for 8 years, and usually last hundreds of thousands of kilometers (at least on good EVs, that's typical for a Tesla) - but not budget in engine and transmission swaps for a comparable ICE at hundreds of thousands of kilometers. And how they want to budget the cost of a brand-new battery pack at today's prices, not the cost of a salvage pack or at prices 10-15 years in the future - on a product that has one of the most rapid price decline curves out there.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        bizarre how people want to budget in the cost of a battery swap for an EV - parts that are warrantied for 8 years, and usually last hundreds of thousands of kilometers (at least on good EVs, that's typical for a Tesla) - but not budget in engine and transmission swaps for a comparable ICE at hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

        A Tesla costs $40K. That's over twice what I paid for my 2001 Volkswagen turbo diesel. I'm still on the original engine + transmission in that car -- a good diesel will last hundreds of thousands of miles before you need to replace those.

        So what was your point again? Completely lost me.

        how they want to budget the cost of a brand-new battery pack at today's prices, not the cost of a salvage pack or at prices 10-15 years in the future - on a product that has one of the most rapid price decline curves out there.

        My old 2013 Nissan LEAF needs a replacement pack today, not 10-15 years in the future.

        As for "salvage packs," they're in very short supply. It's not everyday that someone crashes a newish LEAF, so good luck finding one. If yo

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by drinkypoo ( 153816 )

          A Tesla costs $40K. That's over twice what I paid for my 2001 Volkswagen turbo diesel. I'm still on the original engine + transmission in that car [...] My old 2013 Nissan LEAF needs a replacement pack today, not 10-15 years in the future.

          How did the same person decide both to buy one of the best small diesels ever made, and also one of the worst EVs, and then go on to make a direct comparison between them? I call shenanigans.

          • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

            by mobby_6kl ( 668092 )

            I paid $600 for a 2004 Honda Fit/Jazz that is also on the original engine and transmission. Therefore all other cars are overpriced garbage.

            • Side note, it's a shame Honda discontinued the Fit/Jazz here in the US. The new model looks amazing.

              • Well it's not a giant SUV so who's going to buy it?

                This one really feels like a cheap econobox (which is fair enough) but it looks like they managed to make the new one actually quite pleasant without making it too expensive.

          • Let him live in the past. He can't face the future.
        • by mspohr ( 589790 )

          Nissan Leaf cars are trash. Notorious for battery failures. Also Volt and Bolt.
          Buy a good EV.

      • by mobby_6kl ( 668092 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @09:01AM (#63314091)

        Some people are just afraid of any change and will come up with completely inane arguments to justify their existing opinion since they aren't actually looking for the real answer. Just yesterday I just saw this comment on a local car review site about the electric Volvo XC40, paraphrased:

        So the consumption is 25kWh/100km, with our grid it means 15kg of coal burned, and that's bad!

        That's it, that's the entire complaint with lots of people agreeing. But it's not even doing the right math, or they'd see that this 400HP SUV which can do 0-60 under 5 seconds has lower CO2 emissions than an average gas car (which here probably means a 1l econobox), or that the emissions aren't dumped into your face, or that the grid can be improved by building one more reactor or a few windmills (which are also bad).

      • by couchslug ( 175151 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @10:19AM (#63314279)

        Most original owners will not keep a BEV nearly long enough for a battery swap and most ICE owners don't wear out their original drivetrain. The vehicle is generally sold to a used buyer by then as people with new car money are under no pressure to hang onto their toys (a new vehicle is a luxury purchase after all).

        Non-mechanics (whose uninformed opinions tend to be worthless) tend to confuse BEV batteries with 12v ICE engine starting batteries when it comes to longevity expectations. One thing is not like the other.

        • > Non-mechanics (whose uninformed opinions tend to be worthless)

          This is an unworthy stab at non-mechanics. NOBODY'S uninformed opinion is worth anything unless you're a psychologist studying how people learn.

        • Most original owners will not keep a BEV nearly long enough for a battery swap

          But for anyone to buy a used BEV, they had better be ready for it and factor it into the used price. As if buying a used car wasn't already risky enough, now you're playing with a several thousand dollar hot potato.

      • And how they want to budget the cost of a brand-new battery pack at today's prices, not the cost of a salvage pack or at prices 10-15 years in the future - on a product that has one of the most rapid price decline curves out there.

        When the global demand for raw materials increases at many more times current extraction rates, it's quite ignorant to assume the kind of warmongering and corruption required to sustain the delusion of "rapid price decline" will continue to be voted for in the future.

      • I don't think you can really do that with a battery. You can't jury rig it, and reconditioning sites aren't all that much cheaper.

        As for "today's prices" the cost of automobiles is skyrocketing. It's basically a race between improving tech and companies jacking up prices because they can. So far the latter is winning.

        It's actually causing a bit of consternation among adults because their kids don't want to bother with driver's licenses since they can't afford their own car. So that the only thing ge
    • by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @07:46AM (#63313987) Journal

      For what it's worth, my last fast-charge session was 15.73 kwh for $7.84 (which includes session fee). For me that works out to about 70 miles of range, for a cost of about $0.11/mile.

      At $5 for 40 miles with diesel that's $0.125/mile.

      Of course that was six months ago 'cause I do virtually all my charging at home, where 15.73 kwh would only cost me $2.36, or $0.034/mile...
      =Smidge=

      • by jeadly ( 602916 )
        In December I paid $12.92 for 38 kWh, which is around 130 miles making it $0.10/mile. And yes, these are special *fast* electrons for road trips. The vast majority of my miles cost $0.15/kWh rather than $0.34/kWh as in this example. The power Subway is offering is on the expensive side, but people will occasionally pay above market rate for convenience; imagine airport gas or sports event hot dogs. OP has also forgotten to account for the part where his old VW is poisoning everyone around him with illeg
    • by Joce640k ( 829181 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:48AM (#63314073) Homepage

      Let's see... If a gallon of diesel is priced $5 and I can go 40 miles per gallon, it would only cost me $15 in fuel to go 120 miles. But if I use my EV, I can pay $20 to go the same distance?

      It gets worse when you consider my old Volkswagen turbo diesel actually gets 49 miles per gallon on the freeway, diesel is currently priced at $4 a gallon, and my 14.5 gallon tank gives me a driving range of 600 miles between stops for fuel.

      Wait 'til you see the price of diesel a few years from now...

    • the smaller-format, fast EV chargers will offer a 120-mile charge in 17 minutes for approximately $20

      Let's see... If a gallon of diesel is priced $5 and I can go 40 miles per gallon, it would only cost me $15 in fuel to go 120 miles. But if I use my EV, I can pay $20 to go the same distance?

      It's almost as if you think prices can't ever change.

      As soon as Subway's nearest competitor installs them too then that price will go down.

      Diesel? The only way the price of diesel is going is UP!

    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • That VW compares to a Chevy Volt (26k), not a Model 3. Teslas are luxury cars.
    • by mspohr ( 589790 )

      Utility monopolies must maintain their profits so won't ever let electricity be cheap or free. (And don't dare to even think of putting solar on your roof.)
      120 mile charge is about 30 kWh which should cost $3 ($0.10/kWh). Instead you are being charged $0.66 kWh.
      (My solar PV gives me 25 years of electricity at $0.07 kWh)
      Yes, you are being gouged for electricity (and also for diesel at $5/gal).

    • Free sunshine does not lead to free electricity. There are other costs, as well as middlemen to collect rents. Calif, which has the largest fraction of solar market penetration, also has the highest electricity prices.

    • A 120-mile charge is about 30 kWh. At wholesale power prices, that would cost $1-$2. Even at PG&E's retail prices, the cost would be $5-$12. So Subway is building in a pretty nice margin here.

    • If we want EV's to be successful, we absolutely can't gouge people on the cost of electricity to charge their EV's.

      Overpriced BEV chargers are a pretty common thing in my neck of the woods, too. Somewhere around $0.35 per kWh is the point where a Tesla Model 3* and fueling my ICE econobox (achieves an EPA combined 34 MPG rating, and in real world use typically beats that) with $3.12/gal 87 octane, are roughly about equal in cost.

      My guess is charging while out and about is still seen as a bit of a luxury, since most BEV owners I'd assume charge their cars at home.

      * I don't own a Tesla, I'm going by the EPA 100 mile rati

  • by The Evil Atheist ( 2484676 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @06:46AM (#63313909)
    So, I guess while her car is charging, Sally can wait, while eating a sandwich.
  • by Teun ( 17872 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @07:03AM (#63313937)
    With my EV I regularly drive between The Netherlands and Denmark.
    Along the main roads you'll find a lot of charging stations, the McDonald's, KFC's and the like are among the first and best.
    So my experience tells me the (junk) food and coffee consumed while charging is only marginally cheaper than the cost of the charge.
    In other words, it's a smart move by existing stops to add EV charging and pull in additional customers.
    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @07:59AM (#63314001) Homepage Journal

      EV charging has opened up a big new market. A petrol station needs large tanks and regular deliveries. The pumps are expensive and there are a lot of regulations to keep it all safe. People don't like the smell of petrol and car exhausts either, so it's not a good place to hang around.

      EV chargers are much easier and cheaper to install and operate. That means many more places can have them, rather than just big operators with plenty of resources and multiple locations.

      • DCFC stations are extremely expensive. About $40K per dispenser, versus about $4K per dispenser at a gas station. Even when you factor in tank installation, a modest charging station will cost maybe double a typical gas station.

        A big part of this is EV chargers are still not manufactured at the same volume as gasoline dispensers. Another factor is just the cost of labor and materials is simply higher.

        For $2Mil you get a gas station with mini-mart and 8-10 dispensers, canopy, signage, landscaping. For that s

        • by GlennC ( 96879 )

          So if I already had a parking lot with a fast food place or mini-mart, I could invest that money and make my site more attractive to a new and potentially growing set of customers that may not have considered my location previously...is that what you meant?

          • No, what I meant was exactly what I said: That the parent comment's statement -

            EV chargers are much easier and cheaper to install and operate

            - is incorrect. The situation may change in the future, but for now EV charging infrastructure is considerably more expensive than petroleum fueling infrastructure.
            =Smidge=

        • Even when you factor in tank installation, a modest charging station will cost maybe double a typical gas station.

          Like EVs themselves, the up front cost is higher. Also like EVs, the recurring costs are lower. You don't need as much permitting and inspection, and electricity is cheaper than fuel — filling stations literally make little to nothing selling fuel, it's so expensive. And you're never going to have to dig up tanks and spend a bunch of money to have soil removed and expensively processed or landfilled. The vehicles still represent a fire risk, but they're less likely to catch fire while charging than IC

        • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Must be different in the US, in the UK petrol pumps are very expensive. They are precision measurement devices and heavily regulated. Lots of safety requirements, comms for payment.

  • But will it work? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by quonset ( 4839537 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @07:18AM (#63313959)

    A recent study found at least 20% of all charging events [marketwatch.com] (the attempt to charge a vehicle while not at home) failed. The reasons being software problems, charging stations damaged, or payment processing errors.

    Will this be any different?

    • Re:But will it work? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @08:02AM (#63314007) Homepage Journal

      It used to be that way in Europe, before the market matured. The newer chargers are much more reliable, and the operators have got better at maintaining them.

      Even so, there are still issues that need to be worked out. For AC chargers there is often no clear way to report failures, and they don't get fixed quickly. The problem seems to be the owners of the land they are installed on, e.g. the car park operator, not having systems in place to report and deal with faults promptly.

      For high power DC chargers they used to have a lot more issues, but they have got better at recovering from them. Nowadays most of the problems are with new cars having software incompatibilities. The big advantage of CHAdeMO is that it's very simple, CCS is much more complex. Still, that only tends to last a few months after the cars first hit the market, and once one manufacturer is sorted out any new models will likely work straight away.

    • by Ichijo ( 607641 )

      charging stations damaged

      "EVs are bad because the infrastructure is unreliable," explained the vandal.

  • How about they try making bread that doesn't taste like it's 50% Aluminum by volume?

  • That doesn't sound so cheap even for places where the gas is like 90% various taxes. And this is when they're trying to push adoption, by the time when they are fully taxing this, plus the demand creating various infrastructure shortages we'll probably have the price of a small charge costing the same as a full tank able to take you 5+ times further. Never mind the extra time needed for all the charging.

    • by methano ( 519830 )
      It isn't cheap or even reasonable. It cost me about $3 at home to get 120 miles on my Tesla Model 3 LR. That's more than the markup on the sandwich and there, somebody makes it for you. Of course, slashdot says that the company didn't quote charges right after they said that the company quoted charges.
      • by mpercy ( 1085347 )

        I think gas stations make an overhead of about 10 cents per gallon. For a 25MPG car, that's about 40 cents of profit for 100 mile range.

    • That doesn't sound so cheap even for places where the gas is like 90% various taxes.

      It might be if you get a suitable discount on your Subway sandwich.

      Maybe Subway is trying to reserve these chargers for Subway customers so they priced them accordingly.

    • That doesn't sound so cheap even for places where the gas is like 90% various taxes. And this is when they're trying to push adoption, by the time when they are fully taxing this, plus the demand creating various infrastructure shortages we'll probably have the price of a small charge costing the same as a full tank able to take you 5+ times further. Never mind the extra time needed for all the charging.

      They are already talking about taxing EV's somehow to replace the lost revenue from gasoline taxes. The roads still need to be paid for.

      • They are already talking about taxing EV's somehow to replace the lost revenue from gasoline taxes. The roads still need to be paid for.

        Talking? They are doing it.

        In Ohio, you pay a tax on your car registration if it's a hybrid, because you use less gas and thus pay less taxes to maintain the roads; and you pay a higher tax on your car registration if it's electric.

        The bill to mandate this was heavily pushed by the oil companies.

        • They are already talking about taxing EV's somehow to replace the lost revenue from gasoline taxes. The roads still need to be paid for.

          Talking? They are doing it.

          In Ohio, you pay a tax on your car registration if it's a hybrid, because you use less gas and thus pay less taxes to maintain the roads; and you pay a higher tax on your car registration if it's electric.

          The bill to mandate this was heavily pushed by the oil companies.

          They would have done it without the oil companies. The revenue goes to the taxing authority, not the oil company. But the oil companies had an interest in EV's being taxed equivalently since the taxes were intended for road maintenance.

          • In Ohio, you pay a tax on your car registration if it's a hybrid, because you use less gas and thus pay less taxes to maintain the roads; and you pay a higher tax on your car registration if it's electric. The bill to mandate this was heavily pushed by the oil companies.

            They would have done it without the oil companies.

            Maybe. Or maybe not. This particular tax bill was heavily pushed by oil companies, who desperately want to kill electric vehicles.

            So, what we currently have is the Federal government subsidizes electric cars, and the state govenment taxes electric cars, so the net result is the Federal government is sending money to the states. Would be simpler if they just did that directly, rather than giving money to car owners which the states then take away.

            • In Ohio, you pay a tax on your car registration if it's a hybrid, because you use less gas and thus pay less taxes to maintain the roads; and you pay a higher tax on your car registration if it's electric. The bill to mandate this was heavily pushed by the oil companies.

              They would have done it without the oil companies.

              Maybe. Or maybe not. This particular tax bill was heavily pushed by oil companies, who desperately want to kill electric vehicles.

              So, what we currently have is the Federal government subsidizes electric cars, and the state govenment taxes electric cars, so the net result is the Federal government is sending money to the states. Would be simpler if they just did that directly, rather than giving money to car owners which the states then take away.

              That's not the right way to look at it. Road construction and repair must be financed, and the financing was previously provided via gasoline taxes.
              That seems reasonable, more gas equates to more road usage.

              But cars that don't use gas are using the same roads, so they need a different way to collect road tax revenue from them. Unless you believe the roads should be free for EV's, but that really makes no sense. Localities were OK with letting them slide when EV's where .000001% of the cars on the road bu

  • Yeah, I'd love to hang out in or around a car park on plastic furniture next to a prefab shed & consume minimum viable product food-like substances. What a life-affirming, optimistic, & inspiring way to spend my time!

    Why is it that remote "gas stations" feature so frequently in apocalyptic &/or horror movies?
    • Yeah, I'd love to hang out in or around a car park on plastic furniture next to a prefab shed & consume minimum viable product food-like substances.

      Lots of people do just exactly that. Fast food outsells conventional restaurants in the US by more than a factor of two.

  • 10 cents a mile? Holy crap! For that kind of money, I'll buy an extra sub or two and push my EV.

    • 10 cents a mile? Holy crap! For that kind of money, I'll buy an extra sub or two and push my EV.

      Is it easy to push an EV?

      • by msk ( 6205 )

        Once it's going downhill. . . .

        Anyway, $20 for 120 miles is 16.67 cents per mile.

        I really want an EV, but I can't yet justify it, between tens of thousands for initial acquisition, external updates to my garage-less home for level 2 charging (people of the night steal things here, so charging at night outdoors is a risk), and punitive extra registration fees meant to make up for EV owners not paying gas taxes.

        My little econobox gets 30 MPG (US), and fuel prices are around $3/gallon here now, so that works o

        • Once it's going downhill. . . .

          Anyway, $20 for 120 miles is 16.67 cents per mile.

          I really want an EV, but I can't yet justify it, between tens of thousands for initial acquisition, external updates to my garage-less home for level 2 charging (people of the night steal things here, so charging at night outdoors is a risk), and punitive extra registration fees meant to make up for EV owners not paying gas taxes.

          My little econobox gets 30 MPG (US), and fuel prices are around $3/gallon here now, so that works out to 10 cents per mile.

          Same here. An EV would fit my needs and I have a garage, but it's much cheaper for me to just drive what I have. Even if the EV fuel is free I'm only spending around $300/month in gas for all four or my cars (lots of kids that drive). I haven't bought a new car in many years, never have a car payment, so an EV would really be an expensive toy.

  • There's a Subway 20 minutes from here, very rural right off the interstate in their own stand-alone building that would be absolutely perfect for this. Most subways I know of in this region are in plazas, grocery stores, gas stations and other places where they wouldn't have the ability to do this. However that stand-alone one is certainly the type of location they would do this. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one in the first batch they roll this out to.

    Mapped location if anyone is interested... [google.com]

  • by Virtucon ( 127420 ) on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @10:40AM (#63314347)

    They can't make sandwiches, they're looking to sell themselves and now a new business model.

    What business are you in Subway?

    If I want a sub, I go down the street to Firehouse, they still remember how they're made.

    • Subway sandwiches aren't that bad. No great, but certainly not disgusting, unlike the McDonands burger I foolishly chose to have for lunch yesterday.

      Certainly an interesting pivot or new direction though. From sandwiches to EV charging!!

      It does make a little sense to extent that EV charge time is about as long as it takes to scarf down a subway sandwich, but got to wonder how may Subway locations have room for this, or could even justify the cost of a single EV charge point in the parking lot (if they have

      • I can see up-front parking now filled up with EVs. It's akin to those who go to gas stations and then park at the pumps.

      • There's a fine line between not great and disgusting. Forcing you to use a mustard other than deli mustard on a spicy Italian sandwich is disgusting.
  • This would be great if there was something other than Subway to eat there. Even before it was revealed that the bread has plastic and sugar, I tried their stuff and knew it was awful. That so many people routinely eat there and even like it is one of those things that makes me wonder if I'm on the wrong planet. It's too bad their spokesman being a pedo didn't kill it. All while Quiznos, which had a delicious French dip sandwich, went broke. Sigh...

  • Whoever created the picture has never charged a Tesla. They have it parked nose in. The charging port is on the rear so Tesla owners always back in to parks with charging.
  • Subway's OK. For a long time it was there for me near the office, on the road, the idea that I know what I'm getting (for the most part.) But for all the updates and changes, new breads might have been the most different thing and that was a while back. Over all the years, it still remains that no matter your meat order, each sandwich mysteriously tastes like each other sandwich on the menu. You can have meatball tainted, or chickenish, or delisomething. There's a comfort in that.

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