What Microsoft's CEO Said in Court About Google - And Its Own 1998 Antitrust Case (thestreet.com) 58
The Street argues that Satya Nadella "has transformed Microsoft since taking over for former CEO Steve Ballmer. Instead of closing the company off from its rivals, Nadella has been open to working with companies that are also competitors like Apple." But they added that Nadella "remains at odds" with Google's parent company Alphabet, even testifying in the antitrust lawsuit against the company.
They highlight another example from Nadella's testimony (first spotted by GeekWire). Nadella also believes that Alphabet sells a false narrative that OEM partners have a choice when in reality they don't. "Google has carrots and it has massive sticks...'We'll remove Google Play if you don't have us as the primary browser.' And without Google Play, an Android phone is a brick. And so that is the type of stuff that is impossible to overcome. No OEM is going to do that," he said.
GeekWire also notes Nadella's comments about the U.S. government's antitrust case against Microsoft in 1998: "Google exists because of two things. One is because of our consent decree, where we had to put a lot of limits on what we could distribute and not distribute by default. And, second, because [of] the fact that you could distribute anything you wanted on Windows, and it's still the case, right, it's not just Google. ... The largest marketplace on Windows happens to be not from Microsoft, it's Steam. And so it's an open platform on which anybody can distribute anything."
They highlight another example from Nadella's testimony (first spotted by GeekWire). Nadella also believes that Alphabet sells a false narrative that OEM partners have a choice when in reality they don't. "Google has carrots and it has massive sticks...'We'll remove Google Play if you don't have us as the primary browser.' And without Google Play, an Android phone is a brick. And so that is the type of stuff that is impossible to overcome. No OEM is going to do that," he said.
GeekWire also notes Nadella's comments about the U.S. government's antitrust case against Microsoft in 1998: "Google exists because of two things. One is because of our consent decree, where we had to put a lot of limits on what we could distribute and not distribute by default. And, second, because [of] the fact that you could distribute anything you wanted on Windows, and it's still the case, right, it's not just Google. ... The largest marketplace on Windows happens to be not from Microsoft, it's Steam. And so it's an open platform on which anybody can distribute anything."
Nadella also believes... (Score:2)
Nadella also believes that Alphabet sells a false narrative that OEM partners have a choice when in reality they don't.
LOL! OEM partners sure have a great choice for OS...
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and your point? MS were suitably bitch slapped for that, As should google be in this case.
True. However at this very moment Microsoft is only just allowing you to actually choose your browser in the EU [theverge.com].
Put another way, in the US, where they admitted they were in breach of anti-trust laws by forcing users onto their own browser they are currently forcing users onto their own browser. Google sure are bad, but they are rookie amateurs to Microsoft's major league evil.
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You've always been allowed to choose your browser in EU. Most people were just too lazy, or stupid, to change from the pre-included bad one.
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No, you can have your own browser on the computer, but in some situations Windows will ignore that and use Edge to override that.
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And some 3rd party porgrams were at one point hard-coded to use IE and would crash without it. You've always been able to uninstall Edge and install whatever you want. Even if Windows opened a browser that wasn't what you wanted, you never had to keep using it. When it comes to technology EU members are just stupid and lazy.
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Microsoft was barely affected at all, they got a minor handslap after the USDOJ found that they had abused their market position in basically every possible way. They were let off the hook by Bush's AG Ashcroft, who stated that it was not in America's best interests to prosecute Microsoft for what we absolutely knew they had done.
American Imperialism does harm to Americans as well as everyone else. It only benefits the ultra-wealthy, like Bill Gates, who personally led Microsoft through its most criminal ac
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When Microsoft created windows phone, IE (later Edge) was the only one allowed to be the default browser. User wasn't even allowed to change it. Bing was also the default search, again user not allowed to change it. OEMs had no say in that one either.
Re: Nadella also believes... (Score:2)
I had one too (got it from a bargain bin to use as a spare phone) and you couldn't do that without some hacking that I recall. In fact, Microsoft is still hostile about that even on desktop Windows. Try setting that search button on the taskbar to Google. Every time somebody figures out a way to do it, Microsoft patches it out. Same with edge from the OS links:
https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/mi... [ctrl.blog]
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When Microsoft created windows phone, IE (later Edge) was the only one allowed to be the default browser. User wasn't even allowed to change it. Bing was also the default search, again user not allowed to change it. OEMs had no say in that one either.
And today, consumers are so lazy that vendors pay millions to be the default setting, because so few actually change a damn thing.
Perhaps Microsoft phone was merely born in the wrong era.
Microsoft hates Google and Amazon (Score:3)
Everything internally is focused on those two competitors. For different reasons. Shanking Google is vital just because. Amazon because of AWS, eating Azure's lunch.
There is a zero sum view that doing harm to the competition would benefit MSFT's bottom line. Who knows, maybe he's right.
Not a brick (Score:5, Informative)
without Google Play, an Android phone is a brick.
I do not have a Google account, and in my Android phone all Google apps are disabled, including Google Play. Phone is not a brick. I run very few apps, but the few I use I downloaded and installed from sites like apkpure.
Re:Not a brick (Score:5, Informative)
in my Android phone all Google apps are disabled, including Google Play.
Don't delude yourself: you are still under Google's surveillance. Because the most important piece of code Google uses to own your device, Google Play Services [wikipedia.org], is still running on your device and you can't stop it.
The only way to get rid of Google Play Services is to install a custom deGoogled ROM such as LineageOS, CalyxOS or GrapheneOS.
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in my Android phone all Google apps are disabled, including Google Play.
Don't delude yourself: you are still under Google's surveillance. Because the most important piece of code Google uses to own your device, Google Play Services [wikipedia.org], is still running on your device and you can't stop it.
The only way to get rid of Google Play Services is to install a custom deGoogled ROM such as LineageOS, CalyxOS or GrapheneOS.
Same as you're under Apple's surveillance with any of their products... It's just that Google is more honest about it.
And as you pointed out, custom ROMs exist in the Android ecosystem for people that paranoid.
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Same as you're under Apple's surveillance with any of their products... It's just that Google is more honest about it.
This is a BS claim. You can read Apple's privacy policy [apple.com] for yourself. iOS does not engage in surveillance by virtue of just existing. There is some "surveillance" in the App Store, in the form of targeted advertising, that is a one click opt in or out when you first use the App Store and is trivially changed afterwards. Apple is also the ONLY mainstream consumer facing company that offers nearly full end-to-end encryption on their cloud service. Check out Advanced Data Protection [apple.com]. Google has nothing
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What if the Play app was not installed? Years ago I bought a phone from Leagoo and had to install the Play Store manually.
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Years ago Android didn't have a significant portion of it's system components managed and updated via the Play Store. Android today is nothing like what it was years ago.
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I feel like we've had this discussion before. Maybe it was someone else.
Please enlighten me: I unlock my S10e phone, swipe up, tap "Settings", scroll to and tap "Apps", scroll down to all "Google" things including Google Play Services, and all Google things say "Disabled".
How have I deluded myself? Is it secretly running but lying and reports "Disabled"?
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Is it secretly running but lying and reports "Disabled"?
Yes.
Can you enable GPS and other apps get the position?
Do you get notifications?
Does the captive portal show up when you connect to a hotel wifi?
Does your banking app work without throwing a fit?
Then Google Play Service is running.
If it wasn't and there was no replacement at all like MicroG to take its place, you would know very quickly.
The all "disable" thing Google lets you do in the settings is a pacifier. You feel good about disabling something but what matters to Google isn't disabled at all. They'll t
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You seem to be one of those people who imagine / fabricate things, then go on a long linked list of incorrect conclusions.
> Can you enable GPS and other apps get the position?
I have NO idea! I don't use GPS, nor any other location stuff. All of that is disabled.
> Do you get notifications?
Way too vague of a question, since there are many sources of "notifications" that all go to one place- phone's UI. I get voice call ring notification, and text (messaging), although that's usually essentially silent a
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You seem to be one of those people who imagine / fabricate things
You seem to be confusing the parent telling you signs that Playstore is still active with your bizarre use of a phone that doesn't trigger set results.
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Way too vague of a question
The question is extremely specific: notifications are those things that come up in the top notification bar when you receive an SMS for example (you do do SMS right?). If the phone alerts you when you get an SMS, then notifications work. If they work, Google Play Services is running.
What's vague about that?
And if you disable notifications in all the apps, that doesn't mean Google Play Services isn't running: it just means you don't see the notifications. You know, like if you refuse to read the menu in a re
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F-Droid is the only one I found that is somewhat sane. That one doesn't seem to let everything just on it.
The two you listed are just as bad as Google Play of being repositories of shit.
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semantics. this depends on what you want your phone for, and you can't sideload whatsapp (bummer, that closed protocol that all your contacts happen to use) nor any apps from companies and institutions you operate with: banks, transport, tax system, or consumer products. not to mention access to any of the hot social networks, and good luck with an alternative to maps.
your position is very commendable but if you do any of the above your phone will be as useless as a brick without whatever the provider's app
Re:Not a brick (Score:4, Insightful)
His point was that you are a minority. Most people would not buy the phone that way, thus an OEM doesn't want to sell one that way because their sales of that model would not even be worth the cost of production.
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Amazon's Android devices do not have Play either, they have the Amazon app store.
Also, Huawei has replaced Google services on phones it sells in countries that have sanctions against it. Their phones work just fine, they have their own app store.
In fact every Android device sold in China doesn't come with Google Play, because it is blocked there. Clearly all those phones are not bricks, they have the manufacturer's own app stores.
Amazon discontinued Fire Phone 8 years ago (Score:2)
Though your comment is true, the devices you describe appear to fall outside what competition law calls the relevant market [wikipedia.org].
Amazon's Android devices do not have Play either, they have the Amazon app store.
Amazon also stopped producing the Fire Phone in third quarter 2015, which was eight years ago. Since then, it doesn't have a horse in the cellular-connected pocket computer race. The tablets that it still produces are more an extension of the Kindle reader line than anything else.
In fact every Android device sold in China doesn't come with Google Play, because it is blocked there.
Competition law in the United States is concerned with devices sold in the United States, or at least devic
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The tablets that it still produces are more an extension of the Kindle reader line than anything else.
These days, the kindle reader line is more an extension to their line of tablets. And it's no joy reading a book on an LCD screen. They are just the only major (known brand) OEM selling tablets at their price point. They will be popular no matter what.
Devices with a Chinese-language UI that work on networks in China are not part of the relevant market.
Yeah, that's not even the point of their comment. They're concurring with a parent post that says an Android device without the Play store is NOT a brick.
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Phone is not a brick. I run very few apps
Congrats on now having a smartphone and/or not using your smartphone like every other person on the planet.
BS (Score:3, Informative)
open to working with companies that are also competitors like Apple
That's BS. Microsoft was working with Apple even in the Gates and Ballmer, MS invested $150 M in Apple in 1997 and became a shareholder.
eh no Peg (Score:4, Informative)
A pot, a kettle and one certain color come to mind (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, given Microsoft's past and present history, basic decency dictates that they really should shut the fuck up about monopolies. Microsoft should be broken up just as much as Google should.
yes and complaining about app store failure... (Score:2)
this just goes to show what a complete failure the windows store (app store) is.
without Active directory they would be DEAD
MS vs Google ... (Score:2)
Try and buy a PC or Laptop without Windows ... a Phone without Android is easy ... can still load any app, there are other app stores ... No Firefox got the advantage of that, Google was so much better that they replaced you ...
Unlike the iPhone an Android phone without Google play works fine
Google exists because we were restricted
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Unlike the iPhone an Android phone without Google play works fine ... can still load any app, there are other app stores
You can load any app, but if it depends on play services, it won't work. IME this is over a third of apps, maybe more than half.
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When I had a phone running Lineage I did try MicroG, but it worked less than half the time, so I just finally gave up and installed gapps. Which is why I just went ahead and bought a phone without bootloader unlock this last time. By the time I want to use it as something other than a phone the battery is bad and the device isn't worth enough to bother replacing it. So now if I want an Android device to do some kind of kiosk-like job (control panel, etc.) I will just buy one designed to be a car stereo, whi
Other stores lack specific bank or chat apps (Score:2)
Try and buy a PC or Laptop without Windows
As far as I can tell, the options are A. buy a Mac, B. buy a Linux PC from an online-only brand such as System76, or C. build a desktop (not laptop) computer from parts.
there are other app stores
If the other app stores lack the app for the bank where I have an account, or if the other app stores lack an app for the chat service that most of my contacts use, the presence of other app stores is probably irrelevant as defined in competition law [wikipedia.org].
Has Nadella tried Firefox on Android? (Score:4, Interesting)
Evidently Nadella hasn't tried Firefox on Android. It's just as good at displaying web pages as Chrome, I prefer the UI, and it doesn't display ads. Why anybody uses Chrome is beyond me. Ditto for GMail - BlueMail is much better.
I'm sure Nadella knows all of this, and is just bulshitting in the finest Microsoft tradition: Browser can't be removed: Microsoft [theage.com.au].
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Both hard stops for me.
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AFAICT (via their Help search), they don't offer custom domain MX record support nor IMAP support. I prefer my e-mail server provider to be separate from my e-mail client provider.
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It's just as good at displaying web pages as Chrome
Yeah, except when it's not, like when it fucks up the fonts, isn't able to zoom to content correctly, sets the window dimensions incorrectly causing you to need to view things too small to read to see the relevant content.
Yeah I try Firefox every 6 months or so. One day I hope it can replace Samsung Internet (really who would use Chrome, it doesn't support adblockers on Android).
Microsoft Store (Score:5, Insightful)
> The largest marketplace on Windows happens to be not from Microsoft, it's Steam. And so it's an open platform on which anybody can distribute anything
Well yeah, that wasn't something Microsoft ever supported and you were trying damn hard to prevent it. The only reason we have this outcome is because despite Microsoft pushing Microsoft Store and now Xbox store into every part of the OS it still blows giant chunks and everybody knows it. If people had actually started using it I think things would be very different right now.
Microsoft wasn't trying to be open, they were trying to be greedy. They forced developers to re-write their applications specifically to support MS Store and it was a fucking mess. Everyone from developers to customers absolutely hated it.
The only reason Steam was tolerated by Microsoft was because for a while in the early 2000's rival consoles were eating PC's lunch and Microsoft was at risk of having nothing left but a few MMO's and flight sims.
So, fuck you Nadella. We're not buying your good cop routine. Just because you failed to build your own walled garden doesn't mean you didn't try and won't try it again one day. Just because you "embrace openness" doesn't mean you won't fuck everyone over again the first chance you get.
If I want open - I'll use linux. Enough games run well on it that windows is entirely optional for me now. Your shit OS remains on my gaming rig at my discretion because:
a.) Win 10 was pre-installed (funny that), and
b.) You haven't pulled too many stupid stunts (yet)
So just stay out of my way and everything will be fine.
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The only reason Steam was tolerated by Microsoft was because for a while in the early 2000's rival consoles were eating PC's lunch and Microsoft was at risk of having nothing left but a few MMO's and flight sims.
While I agree with you in general that Nadella is only 'embracing openness' because he's failed at creating a walled garden that people actually wanted to use, I don't think Microsoft really saw Steam this way.
Steam was first introduced around 2003, as part of the Half-Life 2 installation. The market was entirely different in 2003. Microsoft was starting to make inroads in the gaming market with the Xbox; Halo was still popular and games like Ghost Recon and GTA3 were selling well, too. Microsoft wasn't foc
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All good points. Steam was DRM long before it was a store.
Since you brought up pre-broadband Internet it's a good reminder of another seedy part of Microsoft history.
Back in the 90's when the Internet was a basically an add-on service on top of your BBS dial-up, Microsoft came out with an underwhelming AOL competitor called MSN. MSN was pretty expensive and you could only communicate with other people on MSN. Since they couldn't match Compuserve, Prodigy or AOL in size or smaller ISPs on price and freedom t
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(Off-topic, sorry.) Steam is not "an open platform on which anybody can distribute anything". Valve is quite cautious about what games and other software they accept onto Steam.
Wait what? (Score:2)
I have multiple app stores on my Android phone. Play Store is the main one, sure, but Samsung included their store and you can add other stores on top of that. We actually do not NEED Play Store for the phone to be functional. Some might even say NOT having Play Store, or any Google software at all, would be an improvement to the phone and it's privacy.
It is easy to be Ethical when you have nothing... (Score:2)
It is easy to be ethical when you have nothing to loose.
We see this in politics where a political party might demolish or even kick out a member for misdeeds, but only when they are nearly certain their replacement will be a member of the same party. Otherwise they will fight tooth and nail, and excuse all the bad behaviors to keep the scumbag in.
We see this in business, where they will follow ethical and responsible business practices, just as long as it is convenient to them. Proud to show off their 0 e
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When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.
-Words of an ancient philosopher (Attributed by Harq al-Ada to one Louis Veuillot)
from "Children Of Dune"
Corporate Internet (Score:1)
Web-Environment-Integrity will end the freedoms we enjoy currently on the internet, in favor of a corporate fascist rule.