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Transportation

GM Delays EV Truck Production At Michigan Plant By Another Year (reuters.com) 114

Posted by BeauHD from the supply-and-demand dept.
General Motors said it will delay production of electric pickups trucks at its plant in Michigan by another year as the No. 1 U.S. automaker grapples with flattening demand for electric vehicles. Reuters reports: The move is the latest sign that electric vehicle production and demand may not be as strong as forecast. GM had been set to begin production of the electric Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra in late 2024 at the suburban Detroit plant. The company said the plan now is to start it in late 2025.

GM said the change was being made "to better manage capital investment while aligning with evolving EV demand" but said the move does not impact its battery plant plans. GM said in July battery production at the Ultium joint venture plant Ohio has been hampered because "our automation equipment supplier is struggling with delivery issues."

The automaker in July reiterated a previous target of building 400,000 EVs from 2022 through the first half of 2024, and projected EV revenue of $50 billion in 2025. GM has said it is targeting production of roughly 100,000 EVs in the second half of 2023. Reuters reported in July that the U.S. electric vehicle market is growing, but not quickly enough to prevent unsold EVs from stacking up at some automakers' dealerships.
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GM Delays EV Truck Production At Michigan Plant By Another Year More

GM Delays EV Truck Production At Michigan Plant By Another Year

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  • Dump the truck
    Like 'lectric blade
    EV's suck
    For razor, trade
    Burma Shave

    • Myanmar.

  • Lack of demand or boneheaded choices hobbling futu (Score:5, Interesting)

    by benmhall ( 9092 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:33PM (#63932951) Homepage Journal

    I bought a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV. Iâ(TM)ve had it since April and couldnâ(TM)t be happier. It is an awesome car at a fair price.

    It also has wireless CarPlay - a requirement for me when considering a new car.

    All 2024 and newer Chevy EVs were scheduled to feature faster charging (yeah!) but no CarPlay and a MUCH higher starting price for larger vehicles.

    Me, I am glad I ordered what I did when I did. It was a brief moment when the stars aligned and one could get reasonable value for the money. Then top brass went and messed it all up for future customers.

    No thanks.

    • I bought a 2023 Chevy Bolt EUV. I've had it since April and couldn't be happier. It is an awesome car at a fair price.

      It's no secret that I'm personally not the biggest fan of EVs due to their cost and potential battery longevity issues. However, my partner has a 60 mile-per-day commute and his previous car payment plus the cost of gas was actually higher (by roughly $100/mo) than what we figured he'd be paying on a Bolt EUV. For shits and giggles, we went to the dealer and had them kick some numbers around on his trade and they actually were able to put together a decent deal. I guess supply really has caught up with d

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AvitarX ( 172628 )

        Of all the auto makers Chevy really seemed to understand using the high torque of an electric motor was fun.

        Their Spark EV wasn't fast (low horsepower), but threw 300 ft lb of torque at 0 RPMs and was a fun pep machine.

        Their their bolts and volts similar, excellent 0-30 and decent 0-60, especially if compared to something like a civic which would be their closest competitor in size and luxury.

        • Their their bolts and volts similar, excellent 0-30 and decent 0-60, especially if compared to something like a civic which would be their closest competitor in size and luxury.

          I'm used to driving vehicles that have 9 to 10 second (or worse) 0-60 times, so I was blown away by how fast the Bolt EUV accelerates.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by shilly ( 142940 )

            For what it's worth, in urban driving what counts for me is 0 to 40. My Renault Zoe is only about 9.5 seconds 0 to 60, but 0 to 40 is much faster than you'd expected, it's 40 to 60 that's slow. So it is really great in town driving, which is 99% of my driving -- small and nimble

            • I drive a Prius. My average speed to and from work is 21mph. While I enjoy a fast 0-40 in power mode, 99% of the time if I accelerate fast I'd hit the car in front of me.

              • Re: (Score:2)

                by shilly ( 142940 )

                London is mostly now 20mph speed limits, but there's enough places where that's not the case that it's still fun for me. I am glad not to have to drive to work each day!

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by AvitarX ( 172628 )

            They're a pleasure to drive.

            I test drove a volt plug in hybrid and a spark EV before getting the bmw i3 plug in hybrid.

            The newer volts were too expensive, and I wasn't sure about the long term support on the bolt EV, and both had fairly sad interiors.

            But driving that spark at reasonable speeds was joyous.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Rei ( 128717 )

        Lol, if you think the *Bolt*'s acceleration is good... ;)

        • Have you tried one? In the low end (0-40 mph), it DOES have really good acceleration for it's class. It feels like the acceleration I used to get in small cars that had a turbo in them (before turbo became a way to get better gas mileage by reducing the size of the engine and making up for it with a turbo).

          If I hit the gas in a little commuter car and it pushes me back in my seat, that's really good acceleration for its class.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Rei ( 128717 )

            If you're coming from a gas econobox, I can imagine how you'd feel like a 6,5s 0-60 is a lot.

            The *slowest* Tesla does 0-60 in 5,8s (and that's slowed down from what it was until recently, used to be 5,3s for the slowest). The base long range Model 3 is 4,2s, without acceleration boost, and performance is 3,1s.

            Or, say, for non-Teslas: the slowest Mach E is 6,1s (2 trims). Then 5,8s (2 trims), 5,2s (2 trims), 4,8s (2 trims), 3,8s, and finally 3,5s.

            The standard for EV acceleration is a lot sportier than the s

      • Glad you're happy with the bolt. It's an awesome low price ev! If you have a place to charge at home and a second ICE, an EV is an excellent commuter car. We have a 2011 Leaf (roughly 60 mile range--30 each way), and while the range is annoying, it still does 90% of our driving. We almost never use the ICE except when we both need a car or we're going on a long road trip. I agree with you, though. I don't recommend EVs for people with only one car and they still have major limitations. The EPA ranges

    • It also has wireless CarPlay - a requirement for me when considering a new car.

      Think about it: a $500 device determines whether or not a $20k+ vehicle is worthy of buying. We are fucked. Why is audio vertically integrated? To get exactly this result. Fuck that, I have not bought a car in 20 years because of this nonsense.

      (The most epic CAPTCHA ever: abjure. Does AI choose these based on the contents of the message?)

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by jjn1056 ( 85209 )

      I don't think top brass messed it up, that Bolt you got for that price was losing GM money. It was a compliance car. If they have to show a profit they couldn't sell it for that price.

  • Must be a Truck (Score:3)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @09:39PM (#63932955) Homepage Journal

    Ford is getting murdered in the market and the press because their EV truck is bad at everything a truck is for and is bad at being an aerodynamic SUV which is all it really is.

    GM needs to have K1500 parity before going to market. 2500+ is a different story.

    • Let's be honest here. The vast majority of the people driving around suburbia and the city aren't doing truck things with their truck. They aren't hauling a yacht, they aren't getting a load of gravel (can't scratch up that fancy bed liner!), they aren't hauling lumber (bed can't fit 4x8 plywood or sheetrock anyhow), and they aren't taking it offroad with those fancy alloy wheels and low profile tires either.

      They haul their ass back and forth to work and the grocery store. Most trade workers have box trucks

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by haruchai ( 17472 )

        "The vast majority of the people driving around suburbia and the city aren't doing truck things with their truck"
        An anti-Tesla investor on SeekingAlpha told me some years back that "vast majority" of trucks in his West Texas stomping grounds have never felt the touch of even 1 piece of lumber.
        So yes, most of them could easily cope with having an EV as the 2nd vehicle or even a daily driver.

        • An anti-Tesla investor on SeekingAlpha told me some years back that "vast majority" of trucks in his West Texas stomping grounds have never felt the touch of even 1 piece of lumber.

          It's like that in Florida, too. Certainly, people in the trades use them for actual hauling purposes, but your average suburban dweller buys one because he thinks it looks really cool sitting in the parking lot at Publix.

          • My brother's an electrician. He doesn't drive a truck, he drives a panel van. You know, so his tools and supplies are at least a little protected from the weather and theft, plus it's easier to get to stuff than being placed in today's ridiculously huge and tall trucks?

            They've tried to sell him a truck before though. Because that's the money maker.

            I think a PHEV would be ideal for him - a big battery for the reduced mileage cost, plus an engine capable of acting as a job site generator, for when he's wor

            • My brother's an electrician. He doesn't drive a truck, he drives a panel van.

              I completely agree that a full-size van is the more practical vehicle for trade work, but I see plenty of people at construction sites with pickup trucks. If I had to guess, I'd say a big contributing factor is that vans absolutely suck to drive. If you own one, you'll absolutely want a secondary vehicle for when you're not on the job. A truck ends up being a reasonable enough compromise if you're only going to own a single vehicle.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by haruchai ( 17472 )

              "I think a PHEV would be ideal for him - a big battery for the reduced mileage cost, plus an engine capable of acting as a job site generator"
              A quarter century past I worked for a friend's renovation company demolishing houses, including through 4 winters.
              Not fun & not something I would a last a full day doing now.
              Something like the F-150 Lightning would have been a fantastic asset& while I rarely find myself in agreement with Bob Lutz, I did applaud his support of hybrid startup Via Motors

              https://w [motortrend.com]

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AvitarX ( 172628 )

        The best selling 3 vehicles in the US are pickup trucks (Ford, Chevy, then ram. Number 6 is GMC), so it seems pretty obvious most aren't used as "trucks".

        I will say though, I love my fake truck (Honda Ridgeline). The mileage is frustrating at times, but the tiny bed is super convenient a couple times a month, and the ride is nice.

        I miss when I lived near a car share where I could no hassle rent a truck by the hour 3 blocks away and own a tiny car for normal use.

        But as it is, I use the bed enough that dealin

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Teun ( 17872 )
          I know the US has a different lay out than most of the EU but as a frequent visitor of the US I also know the vast majority of Americans need a pick up just as much as Europeans do, not.
          Since 10 months I drive a Nissan Ariya and have done some 15000 mi among which a 2300 mi round trip from Denmark to France, the car has behaved beautifully and charging every ~2-3 hrs is easy.

      • Let's be honest here. The vast majority of the people driving around suburbia and the city aren't doing truck things with their truck.

        Let's be honest, some people are doing "truck things" with their truck.

        I noticed when I moved into my house that all the neighbors up and down the street drove 4WD vehicles. I don't know why I noticed this but I realized in the first winter why this was the case. The neighborhood is quite hilly and the city tends to plow major roads twice before venturing into side streets like those in front of my house. I got stuck in the street many times after first moving in and at one point I had enough and sold my

      • There are certainly many like this, but there is a second category in the middle. These are people like my Dad who usually drive a truck solo with an empty bed, but at least once or twice a month are hauling, carrying large items, and using it like a work truck. If you saw his truck in a parking lot on any given day, you'd see an empty truck, but it's not like he's going to go rent a u-haul twice a month.

      • Depends on whether you are in a white collar or blue collar neighborhood. I'm in a blue collar one, there are tons of trucks, and I see them doing truck things all the time. That includes pulling trailers, and hauling work supplies, and even 4x8 plywood, which can fit with tailgate down.

    • Not only this, but I've been seeing a LOT of "EVs Suck!" type news articles lately. "How much EVs actually cost!", "Hidden dangers of EVs", "How hybrids are better than EVs", etc...

      Makes me wonder if there's a campaign out there to put down EVs a bit.

      • "Hidden dangers of EVs"

        Like feeling really silly when you start planning your trips to gas stations based on which ones have the best* selection of junk foods, rather than the cheapest gas.

        * Spoiler alert: It's always Wawa.

      • Makes me wonder if there's a campaign out there to put down EVs a bit.

        With all the hype that's been given about BEVs for the last (pulling a number out of my head) 15 years there's plenty of room for merely some realism to pull people back.

        One example is the claims of how quickly a BEV can charge does need a reality check given what I've seen. I expect it is true that people can get 80% range in 10 minutes, or whatever the claim might be, but that's with ideal conditions of the battery not getting below 5% (or whatever) before stopping for a charge, the weather being mild (t

        • Hmmm...

          The battery not being below 5% - I haven't ever heard of this being an issue. Charging slows when the battery is nearly full, not nearly empty.
          Too hot or cold - cold shouldn't be an issue, so long as it isn't grossly outside of operating temperatures (like a really cold day in Alaska/Canada, around -40), as charging the battery isn't 100%, and one of the limiting factors for fast charging is heat. If you don't need to operate the battery warmers, being able to dump heat faster just helps the proces

      • Makes me wonder if there's a campaign out there to put down EVs a bit.

        Or, it may be that the truth about how the EV use case doesn't fit the average American if you don't live on the far east/west coast....

        • Except that the titles are mostly clickbait.

          Either the article itself is mostly "EVs are actually pretty great despite this!" or the hazard is seriously overstated, like the stuff telling people to not charge their phones overnight because Apple messed up their design and/or people were stupid enough to charge their phones in hotboxes(under the blankets, insulating them).
          My phone, for example, does an explicit slow charge when plugged in at night. I also have it set so it doesn't actually charge to

          • EVs should do fine in most of the midwest, for example.

            I was thinking more on infrastructure....

            You have plenty (apparently) of charging stations out there on the west coast and east coasts....but across the country, it just isn't there yet...you have to hunt and plan where to charge if taking a remotely distant trip.

            And like others have talked about, the EV trucks aren't ready to replace ICE pickup trucks, where people actually use them.

            For the most part, across the middle of the US, people, the majori

  • I can't wait for it to come out that the UAW is China funded/controlled. At least I hope they are, because the alternative is that the UAW is doing this out of sheer stupidity. I'd rather we got screwed by next-level outsmarting than sheer stupidity.

    • I think the big three automakers and the UAW deserve each other. However if (though likely when) they all implode, the democratic party will be more than happy to provide corporate welfare, because union jobs are too big to fail even though they produce some of the worlds crappiest cars. And that's something that can be said objectively based on how they fare on consumer reports reliability ratings. Six of the bottom nine car brands are UAW. The only two UAW brands that aren't near the bottom are Lincoln an

  • Ford EV Truck sales off 46% (Score:3)

    by schwit1 ( 797399 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @10:36PM (#63933075)

    Sales of the F-150 lightning electric pickup were off about 46% during third quarter due to slower-than-expected demand and downtime at the plant [CNBC 10/04/2023] [cnbc.com]

    Ford sold 6,464 F150 Lightning EVs in Q3 2022, but sales in Q3 2023 fell to just 3,503 which annualizes to only 42,000 per year. Ford executives think pretend theyre going to sell hundreds of thousands of EV pickups per year, but demand has already imploded. Even worse, a great many of the recent Lightning sales are to governmental fleets. Consumers have rejected this product.

    As for downtime at the plant affecting sales of the F150 Lighting EV, an ideal supply of vehicles on dealer lots is 60 days worth, Ford dealers are currently choking on a 97-day supply of Lightnings nationwide with 3,632 for sale [caredge.com]. Downtime is not retarding sales.

    Meanwhile, Ford has suddenly canceled all further deliveries to dealers of 2023 model year F150 Lightnings that are not already pre-sold.

    Ford cancels dealer stock orders of 2023 F-150 Lightning to do quality checks [Detroit Free Press 10/02/2023] [freep.com]

    Dealer stock orders for the 2023 Ford F-150 Lightning were canceled in the U.S. in recent days, the Detroit Free Press has learned.

    Ford confirmed Monday that the all-electric pickups are undergoing "additional quality checks" at the Rouge Electric Vehicle Center.

    Additional quality checks? Is something wrong with them?

    The issue is not safety-related, Gunsberg said.

    No, the issue is the growing glut of 2023 model year F150 Lightnings.

    • Tesla has a big lead in efficient mass-manufacture, but they're still stuck on sedans, which most Americans don't want. I'm curious to see how the CyberTruck will do, but it's pretty freaky.

      I think PHEV makes more sense for a pickup. No gas for normal use, but range when you need it.

      • The Tesla model Y is their most popular, and it's a SUV.

        As for the Cybertruck, well, as I understand it it's become a lot more standard in order to meet crash requirements.

    • I think the biggest thing truck buyers are likely bothered by is the 320 mile range. For a commuter sedan that's very good, but for trucks...eh...

    • Disappointing, but not that concerning.

      Pickup trucks are used by blue collar folks and/or while collar folks who fantasize that they're manly men doing manly things, and Ford in particular has a conservative consumer base [reddit.com].

      All those things that are not great cultural fits for EVs.

      I see it more as Ford trying to buy itself some good PR and prepping for the eventual transition, but EV sedans are going to lead the way.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      Every company has issues with their first EVs. Ford has made some smaller EVs before, but the F-150 was a new platform and I think the first widely sold in the US.

    • Yes, the Lightning sales are not quite what Ford hoped. Here's a data point of 1; I'm sure there are other reasons for lower than expected sales...

      I had a first day reservation, heck, I had it 10 minutes after the reveal show was over. However, Ford allowed dealer to prioritize "good customers" to the top of the list, 5 in the case of my dealer. I ended up being #9 on their list when I should have been #4. They only received 5 for the first year (to be fair that "year" was only 6 months long). So I had t

  • Economics 101 ++price == --demand (Score:5, Insightful)

    by molarmass192 ( 608071 ) on Tuesday October 17, 2023 @10:49PM (#63933093) Homepage Journal

    The problem isn't demand, it's that Ford will happily sell you a fully loaded 4x4 V8 F150 Lariat for $60K. However, for a similarly spaced out Lightning Lariat the want $80K. That's.a 33% premium, which paired with a 7% financing offer, leaves only those comfortable with a $1425/month car payment to buy their EV truck.

    The GM Silverado EV is even more whacko with a BASE price of $80K.

    The addressable market for EV trucks at >$75K is tiny. Another problem with hyper-expensive EV versions of gas trucks with $35K base models is that people spending >$75K on a truck don't want to be lopped in the same Venn diagram as a $35K truck.

    Tesla's best selling model is a sub $50K all wheel drive SUV with 300 miles of range that doesn't even have cloth seats as an option. The cheapest Ford option with all wheel drive and a 300 mile range is $70K, and you can only get cloth seats at that price.

    So it's all whiney nonsense, Ford and GM don't WANT to sell a $50K EV truck people want. They're in the "nobody wants these" phase, while ignoring the "for a 33% premium over our gas models". There's a non-zero chance they will get hollowed out by the Cybertruck *if* Tesla manages to deliver a $50K 4x4 with 300 miles of range that (gasp) has seats that aren't cloth.

    • You numbers and reasoning make sense, but as a non-American I am confused by the repeated mention of cloth seats. Are cloth seats "good" or "bad" in this context? My 1990 hatchback has cloth seats which have survived 320k km and are still just fine... so in my mind, cloth seats are a positive feature of a car. What is the alternative? Leather? Fake leather? The only leather seats I've seen after 30 years and 320k km are pretty gross, and even when new, leather seats are prone to getting uncomfortably hot an

      • Yes, in America, leather seats are considered the premium product. I think it's mostly culture and not practical benefits, but it is easier to clean leather (less likely to absorb sweat and stain). Other than that, I agree with your downsides... But if you buy a high end car or SUV in America, cloth is often not even an option.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dasunt ( 249686 )

        You numbers and reasoning make sense, but as a non-American I am confused by the repeated mention of cloth seats. Are cloth seats "good" or "bad" in this context? My 1990 hatchback has cloth seats which have survived 320k km and are still just fine... so in my mind, cloth seats are a positive feature of a car. What is the alternative? Leather? Fake leather? The only leather seats I've seen after 30 years and 320k km are pretty gross, and even when new, leather seats are prone to getting uncomfortably hot an

    • The cybertruck is a piece of shit and will not ship in the form as previously advertised. A number of prototype vehicles have been seen on the road and they're jank as fuck. Certainly not a remotely ready to ship product. Nobody real wants that kiddo shit anyways.

    • So it's all whiney nonsense, Ford and GM don't WANT to sell a $50K EV truck people want.

      That was obvious back when Ford announced they were discontinuing all cars except the Mustang... and they were also re-using the Mustang brand on -- wait for it -- a new SUV. My dad drives a Ford Fusion, which is a truly excellent car. In its last model year, it sold in excess of 250,000 cars, and Ford boldly announced they were getting rid of cars because nobody buys them.

      Automobile manufacturers are so greedy and stupid. I'm so glad my 9-year-old WRX is still in great shape, because I'd be really upset

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by indytx ( 825419 )

      So it's all whiney nonsense, Ford and GM don't WANT to sell a $50K EV truck people want. They're in the "nobody wants these" phase, while ignoring the "for a 33% premium over our gas models". There's a non-zero chance they will get hollowed out by the Cybertruck *if* Tesla manages to deliver a $50K 4x4 with 300 miles of range that (gasp) has seats that aren't cloth.

      This. You also forgot to mention that towing range is abysmal with electric trucks. Just terrible. No boating for you, expensive truck owner.

      • This. You also forgot to mention that towing range is abysmal with electric trucks. Just terrible. No boating for you, expensive truck owner.

        You forgot to mention that range drops about the same with gas trucks (lots of people have show and said that). The advantage they have is 5 min refuels. Once solid state batteries are mainstream, an EV truck will do just as well.

    • Ford is losing double for every EV truck they sell. Why? Total and complete lack of innovation, both on design and manufacturing of the vehicle. It's a F150 with batteries and a frunk. While the Cybertruck has a polarizing design, it's a true electric vehicle from the ground up both in design and manufacturing. Nobody wants an F150, that happens to be electric at a huge price premium. They want an electric vehicle, designed and manufactured as an electric vehicle. The Big 3 are constantly complaining abou

  • Ford is having no problems selling the F-150 lightning (last I heard they still had a waiting list) so why would GM think there would be no buyers for their electric pickups?

    • There's something that's impacting sales of the F-150 Lightning.
      https://electrek.co/2023/10/13... [electrek.co]

      There's other articles and it seems that there's been a severe drop in demand, union troubles are impacting production, supply problems are impacting production, something else, or some mix of all the above. Whatever the case there's something going on with Ford F-150 Lightning sales.

      If you can show that demand is unchanged then that still leaves Ford reducing supply for some reason or another, and that reason

  • At least that is my wild guess.

  • Nobody needs a $75k+ electric vehicle, it is at least 100% too expensive, and it has too much stupid shit that nobody wants crammed into it. The automakers have to stop conflating whizz bang internet connected and comes with a wafflemaker with electric vehicles.

  • The federal tax incentives for EVs get way better in 2024. Consumers can get the tax credit even if they don't make enough money to owe much tax. The downside is fewer vehicles may qualify.

    Also lots of EV makers have promised to support Tesla Superchargers in 2024. If they come through that will make a big difference on road trips.

  • Amazing torque for acceleration, then what ? You get up to speed limit in 6 seconds then what ? You drive normal..... Are you taking it to a drag strip...no. If in busy heavy traffic, you're not going anywhere fast. Accelerate too fast, get a ticket for laying a drag ! Going to try to outrun the State Patrol to brag about how fast you can go, probably not. lolololol Nobody wants an overpriced truck !!!
  • It's not low demand for EVs it is low demand for ridiculous prices.

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