Want to read Slashdot from your mobile device? Point it at m.slashdot.org and keep reading!

 



Forgot your password?
typodupeerror
×
Google Businesses

In Antitrust Trial, Google Argues That Smart Employees Explain Its Success (nytimes.com) 36

In its antitrust confrontation with the government, the pillar of Google's defense has been that innovation -- not restrictive contracts, backed by billions in payments to industry partners -- explains its success as the giant of internet search. From a report: Its competitive advantage, it says, is brilliant people, working tirelessly to improve its products. Pandu Nayak, Google's first witness in the antitrust trial that began last month, is the face of that defense. Mr. Nayak, a vice president of search, was raised in India and graduated at the top of his class at one of that nation's elite technical schools. He came to America, earned his Ph.D. in computer science at Stanford University and then spent seven years as a research scientist on artificial intelligence projects at NASA's Ames Research Center in Silicon Valley.

Nineteen years ago, Mr. Nayak joined Google and found a particularly welcoming workplace, filled with professional friends. "At the end of the day, Google is a technology company -- it really values the skills that I have," Mr. Nayak said in his testimony on Wednesday. The computer scientist's testimony is an attempt to rebut a central argument in the case filed by the Justice Department and 38 states and territories. Their suit claims that scale is essential to competition in search. That is, the more data from user queries a search engine collects, the more it learns to improve its service, which attracts still more users, advertisers and ad revenue. That flywheel, the suit says, is fueled by ever-increasing volumes of user data.

This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

In Antitrust Trial, Google Argues That Smart Employees Explain Its Success

Comments Filter:
  • by TuballoyThunder ( 534063 ) on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:21PM (#63937113)
    I think the correct spelling is amoral.
    • Sadly they are not mutually exclusive. For example, I just saw the Netflix dramatised documentary on the development of Google Earth which showed Google engaging in utterly appalling behaviour that was undeniably also very clever if you only cared about making money.
      • by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

        I just researched that documentary.

        If it is the one that claims that they stole the code, it's bunk. Totally bunk, and disputed by the actual people who, you know, wrote the actual bits of code that are in Google Earth.

        If it's about some other malfeasance, then let me know what!

        • If it is the one that claims that they stole the code

          Actually, the utterly appalling behaviour was separate to the main thrust of the documentary which was that the guy Google employed got the entire idea and basic algorithm - but not the code itself - from a group of German programmers.

          The behaviour that they claimed in the program was that Google would write to startup companies who had patents that covered some new product they were developing and ask how much it would be for a license. When those companies responded in writing that it would be $1-10 m

    • I think from an engineering perspective I wouldnâ(TM)t be able to ethically work on a lot of the data mining / spying that is going on for the benefit of advertisers, insurance companies, and whomever is willing to pay $10 for someoneâ(TM)s personal information aggregated from a million sources
      • I think from an engineering perspective I wouldnâ(TM)t be able to ethically work on a lot of the data mining / spying that is going on for the benefit of advertisers, insurance companies, and whomever is willing to pay $10 for someoneâ(TM)s personal information aggregated from a million sources

        I wouldn't work for that company either. I do, however, have no problem working for Google. Many of the negative opinions about Google are based on such common falsehoods. If you're interested in understanding where you've been misled, let me know.

        Hash commitment: fb259106af097b324b24bd39d462391d67e1e9b40ba7f2ed79d6f3136557faa7

  • by packrat0x ( 798359 ) on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:22PM (#63937117)

    Scale is not essential to search, scale is essential to advertising.
    If you only care about a handful of websites, an index of those websites is enough.
    "Search" was that PageRank thing that crawled across webpages and counted links.
    Scale can be set to anything, in regards to search, and still be useful.

    Google has moved on from search--it shows ads and the results *it* wants you to see.
    Google's value (to its customers) is its ability to "target ads" to likely prospects.
    Google needs scale to see the many possible sites people are visiting. Or places
    where they are physically travelling. Or people who they are contacting.

    • But is not a handful of websites, for relevant search you have to index every page of every site on the world wide web. And that *is* scale.

      • Most sites are not relevant to any particular search. Some sites are mere click bait. Indexing more sites, without care for quality or relevance, increases noise to signal.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:26PM (#63937119)
    Have you ever had to ask Google to fix something they've broken, or god help you, multiple things? Simple, basic functions of their advertising platform have been broken for 2+ years for us. They can't be bothered for follow the RFC for appropriate DMARC handling with their Groups functions. Their search continues to get dumber and dumber. I would bet you could fire 2/3rds of their workforce and see zero impact to product quality. They're an abusive monopoly, plain and simple. Fracking is the the appropriate response.
    • You could fire everyone but the acquisitions team, the ads team and a group of techies to keep the servers/net going and see no difference.

      Page Rank was new and good for its day.

      But now:
      Android: bought
      Waymo: bought
      Gmail: bought
      YouTube: bought
      Ad platform: bought
      Docs: bought
      Waze: bought
      Chrome: created in-house to better track users and control the internet (to sell ads)

      Is there anything G developed in house that became successful and wasn't killed off a year or two after failed launch?

      They don't need ANY deve

      • by HBI ( 10338492 )

        Maps.

        However, try getting them to fix said maps. I owned a house where the driveway was listed as a public road. I tried to get it changed for years. Finally I just sold the fucking place and it's not my problem anymore. I had visions of going to small claims court and just harassing them, but it wasn't worth my time.

      • A small correction. GMail was not purchased. It was an internal project at Google. Initially it was only used inside of Google, but eventually they released it to the public.

      • Some of those products may have been bought (Gmail was not), but in their current state they have very little in common with what they were at buying time, from UX to code base.

    • I would bet you could fire 2/3rds of their workforce and see zero impact to product quality.

      I seriously doubt that, I would expect a marked improvement in quality, since most of their changes seem to make the product worse. Especially if you fired the teams dedicated to increasing marketing.

    • nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure...
  • They can still be smart even after the company is broken up over the monopoly they are.

  • to mean that you should be paying them more, considering that they are so far above the competition?

    Asking for a friend...

  • by PPH ( 736903 ) on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:37PM (#63937167)

    ... on products at startups. Which Google will acquire and then cancel. Protecting their position as market leaders with their own suite of mediocre crap.

  • by peterww ( 6558522 ) on Thursday October 19, 2023 @12:50PM (#63937195)

    Because you don't need geniuses to sell ads. In 2020 Alphabet made $183 Billion, $147 Billion of which was advertising. (Interestingly, it also spent 141 Billion, for a net income of 40 Billion) (https://abc.xyz/assets/investor/static/pdf/20210203_alphabet_10K.pdf?cache=b44182d)

    If you think about it, Google's business is billboards. Billboards in your smartphone apps, billboards in your search results, billboards on random websites, billboards everywhere. The only thing you need to make money with billboards is real estate, and a convincing enough argument to the advertiser to suggest their investment will pay off.

    The "smarts" come in when it comes to the real estate. How do they get so many billboards? By working very hard to capture and hold as much digital real estate as possible. Paying browsers to make their real estate the first stop on the web. Investing in their own browser, like investing in their own highways. Building the highway to be optimized for seeing billboards. Ensuring that their billboards are the most visible.

    Doing all that in a way that *doesn't* look like a monopoly, definitely takes some smarts.

    • Yes and no. Yes, in that it's totally accurate that the important thing is convincing advertisers that your ad views are worth more than another platforms ad views. And yes, that's done via data. But no, in that there is also a substantial part of the business that comes from selling enterprise services. Those services are valuable due to quality-----which includes (aggregated, non PII) data. And that quality also feeds back to benefit consumer products as well.
  • by akw0088 ( 7073305 ) on Thursday October 19, 2023 @01:10PM (#63937217)
    How can you be successful if everything you worked on has been cancelled and employees churn every two to three years? Paying others to use your search maybe?
    • the guy mentioned in the article has literally been there like 20 years.
    • How can you be successful if everything you worked on has been cancelled and employees churn every two to three years?

      Google's employee turnover rate is 13%, which isn't terribly high for the tech industry.

  • I wasn't aware.

    Google, would you please put those people to work on projects like Search, Gmail, Drive, messaging, video content, audio content, and Home. I know you are falling short in many more areas, but that would be a great start. Thanks!

    • by pr0t0 ( 216378 )

      Sorry to reply to my own post, but I nearly forgot the area of their biggest deficiency: Management. Please put some of your smart people to work in that role. In fact, do that first and the rest of the issues may solve themselves.

  • Be successful = you're too big and get broken up.

    To be frank the FTC has done this before. The breakup of AT&T turned into a bunch of Baby Bells that ultimately was worse for the consumer and still left AT&T, who owned the infrastructure of all the service providers, in control in the first place, and building multiple infrastructures just for the sake of competition is also in some ways damaging. That's not to say that all anti-trust is bad, the breakup of Standard Oil was ultimately pretty g

    • So personal attacks? How Republican of you.
      • Misconstrue a valid criticism as a personal attack, and then label me something I'm not? How liberal of you, and I mean that in both the political and ironically the philosophical sense.

        First of all, I'm a registered independent.

        Second, she is losing and it's hurting the credibility of the FTC [nytimes.com]. The FTC has suffered several major losses when historically the FTC wins 75% of cases.

        Third, her loss in the Microsoft-Activision deal was, as the judge put it, a failure to produce a single document or sh

    • by jvkjvk ( 102057 )

      >To be frank the FTC has done this before. The breakup of AT&T turned into a bunch of Baby Bells that ultimately was worse for the consumer and still left AT&T, who owned the infrastructure of all the service providers, in control in the first place,

      You have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. If the rest of your post is based off of this premise, I'd rather not get dumber by reading it, I'll stick to debunking this.

      Let's take a look:

      1950 AT&T:
      * You rented your phone
      * You rented y

  • Now it’s no longer the smartest people in the room, they’re just the smartest people. I seem to recall failings of this argument before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
  • Google is miffed that the ungrateful masses dare to question their benevolent reign. We should be eternally thankful they monetize our on-line lives based on maximizing their profit margin, because that is the natural order of the universe.

    The divine right of sovereigns is as fundamental as the laws of physics. Do not cross the streams and always take the blue pill. You have been warned.

    I'm sure that defense will go over really well in a court of law. Just ask Elizabeth Holmes and Bankman-Fried how

  • That Alphabet got to where it is because it hires geniuses is not mutually exclusive of being able to abuse it's monopoly.

    Or in other words this is the Chewbacca defense. But anyhow it is not for Alphabet to prove a negative, it is for the prosecution to show that Alphabet abused it's power.

As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality. -- Albert Einstein

Working...