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Microsoft Windows

PIRG Petitions Microsoft To Extend the Life of Windows 10 (theregister.com) 117

Posted by msmash from the high-stake dept.
The Public Interest Research Group (PIRG) has delivered a petition to Microsoft calling on the company to rethink the impending abandonment of Windows 10 in the face of millions of PCs potentially being rendered eligible for landfill overnight. From a report: There are now less than two years until Microsoft is due to cut support for Windows 10, and at current estimates, 400 million PCs can't make the jump to Windows 11. The petition, addressed to Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, criticizes its plans and states that customers expect their devices to last rather than be rendered obsolete by an arbitrary decision. PIRG warns that tipping that much hardware into landfills is somewhat at odds with the company's stance on the environment.

The petition reads: "All software reaches a point at which it's no longer supported, but when the consequences to our environment are this large we shouldn't accept it." As a reminder, while Windows 10 was largely backwards-compatible with computers running older operating systems, Microsoft slapped hardware requirements on Windows 11 that rendered machines even just a few years old unable to upgrade -- the main issues center on the CPU and TPM requirements.
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PIRG Petitions Microsoft To Extend the Life of Windows 10 More

PIRG Petitions Microsoft To Extend the Life of Windows 10

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  • But if that were to happen... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday October 27, 2023 @10:42AM (#63958357)
    how would Microsoft PR spokesperson Eric Sleeper convince you to throw away mountains of PCs that aren't Windows 11 capable and buy brand new ones that are barely any better but line his own pockets with $$$?

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Z00L00K ( 682162 )

      Follow the money trail.

    • I suspect the PC OEM's pressured MS to go with the TPM and other unnecessary requirements for Win11 to force new PC sales after so many upgraded from Win7 to Win10 for free.

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by HBI ( 10338492 )

        I'm sure they didn't complain, but MSFT had its own reason for this. Kind of hard to walled garden a PC if you can't even reliably identify it. That is what the TPM is for.

        • If Win11 really needed TPM then the workaraounds to get it installed and the OS itself shouldn't work without it. That leads me to believe the OEM pressure to sell more PC's this upgrade cycle was more important.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by HBI ( 10338492 )

            The real negative stuff won't happen until they get the TPM to be near-ubiquitous. Then suddenly your hacked install system will have 'issues'.

            • That's why I've avoided the TPM workaraound. MS could disable those at any moment with an update if they want to. That they haven't makes me lean even more to this being an unnecessary OEM-pushed idea.

  • The should be forced to support the OS for a reasonable lifetime of the machines. Or send everyone a copy of Linux.

    • drop the CPU generation limits and maybe need TPM so that more systems can run 11 without needing an bypass

    • What's a reasonable machine lifetime? I mean, it depends on what the machine is being used for. If you meant how long a computer can last. Without an HDD, my guess is a computer can last decades before maybe the fan or power supply decides to get cancer.

      • 10 years sounds about right. Win10 was released in 2015 so dropping support by 2025 when Win12 is released would be a good start.

        But Microsoft is too big to care.

      • I have a system that is on 15 years now. Only been transplanted into a bigger case to host more hard drives and had a sata card added, Never cleaned, runs 24/7. Maybe you just buy the wrong parts.

        • I'd say you're lucky, or there's something you're not telling us. Consumer-level hardware can certainly last that long, but I wouldn't count on it. Hardware from the mid-late 2000's that's been run continuously has usually suffered issues from either capacitors or tin whiskers by now. Ditto for the fans and other moving parts.

          • I'd say you're lucky, or there's something you're not telling us. Consumer-level hardware can certainly last that long, but I wouldn't count on it. Hardware from the mid-late 2000's that's been run continuously has usually suffered issues from either capacitors or tin whiskers by now. Ditto for the fans and other moving parts.

            Granted, though the Dell XPS-420, from circa 2005-6 given to me by a friend in 2017, I'm using right now runs Windows 10 just fine -- up 24/7 since 2017. The only thing I've replaced is the disk -- installed a used 500GB WD HDD from my shelf when he gave it and just replaced that a few weeks ago with a new 500GB Samsung SSD when the HDD started making a very quiet clicking sound and having performance issues during the last patch Tuesday. I had backups, but was able to clone the old disk onto the new one

        • Same sort of deal for me. My computer is a new old stock CPU from 2014 that I put together in 2019. Motherboard is from 2016. In my mind it's a new computer, but it's nearly obsolete. Runs Baldur's Gate 3 just fine so I'm not going to replace it. While not fast, 64GB of ECC memory is nothing to sneeze at as a feature in a machine that is mainly used to compile code and run VMs.

          I have a Mac Pro 2008 that I got as a refurb, it's been running since January 2009, so it has been going for a little over 14 years.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by xeoron ( 639412 )
      Or be paid to switch, since they do collect a lot of data from users on how the system is running, what apps run or installed, etc....

    • Microsoft doesn't make (most of) the machines... but sure, let's make this a requirement. While we're at it let's go after Apple, too, which historically is MUCH worse for this. Microsoft is killing off PCs made before August of 2017 in October 2025, so that's 8 years. Apple abandoned 2015 Macs in 2021.

    • Or perhaps Microsoft should be forced to offer free recycling services for PCs that ran Windows 10 but cannot run Windows 11.

      The social and environmental cost of all these now-useless-for-no-good-reason PCs is one that Microsoft does not bear. They have completely externalized this cost which is entirely imposed by their products for entirely arbitrary reasons. So, they should be held accountable for this and bear the costs of it.

      Of course they won't be. This nice little idea is far too enlightened for t

      • Incidentally, my prior PC which was born during the windows XP era and couldn't run later versions of windows gained an extra 8 years of life when I switched the OS to Linux. If volunteers can make software backwards-compatible for this long for free, why can't the wealthiest tech company in the world do the same?

        Answer: they can! They just don't want to because they want more money and don't give a hoot about the harmful side-effects of their strategy.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      The should be forced to support the OS for a reasonable lifetime of the machines.

      Indeed. We cannot afford and do not need to do the massive waste Microsoft is trying to cause here. These fuckers need to be smacked down.

      • In my mind it is basic consumer protection. Computers are a commodity now. We've moved past the wild early adopter phase. Most people buy a computer as an appliance that does a thing (usually run a web browser and a handful of apps). The important thing for most people is that the OS is maintained and receives security patches. As hacking, malware, and phishing are absolutely rampant and present a significant danger to the average computer user.

  • Nadella won't even see it (Score:4, Informative)

    by DesScorp ( 410532 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @10:51AM (#63958373) Journal

    Some underling will handle giving a statement, probably something along the lines of laywer-ese: "We at Microsoft share your concerns about the environment and landfills and yadda yadda but a purchase of a new PC with Windows 11 offers compelling value yadda yadda lawyerquote lawyerquote we look forward to serving you for years to come with your new Windows 11 PC's yadda yadda.

  • OR (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Archangel Michael ( 180766 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @10:52AM (#63958375) Journal

    OR Microsoft could remove the requirement for TPM, which for most people something they have no idea what it is, or why to use it, or even how to use it,

    THAT and a lot of people, myself included, hate the UI changes for the sake of UI changes. Why does MS get to dictate what our desktops look like?

    Now, Get Off My Lawn (hearing the "OK BOOMER" Chants already)

    • IT's already not a hard requirement, it's easy to bypass at install. But there is the danger that they will make it one...

    • Re:OR (Score:5, Informative)

      by sg_oneill ( 159032 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:07AM (#63958419)

      It adds literally no value, its there for paranoid DRM bullshit.

      My old laptop couldnt upgrade to Windows 11 despite being 6 months old when Windows 11 came out because even though the honking fast ryzen CPU/ 2060 GPU laptop absolutely had TPM , HPs half-arsed Bios hadn't properly implemented it because I guess they thought gamers didnt need it. It was complete bullshit. I managed to bypass the TPM check but I'm a technologically competent greybeard, most laptop owners barely know how to drive a mouse. What happens to their machines?

      • Re:OR (Score:5, Insightful)

        by caseih ( 160668 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:33AM (#63958481)

        I agree it the TPM is certainly not and should not be a hard requirement, but to say it's of no value is plainly wrong. The TPM is quite useful, and even desirable in many circumstances, and has uses far beyond DRM. In fact, Linux is getting the plumbing to use the TPM for things such as disk encryption and pin or finger print login. Enterprises are very much interested in this sort of capability.

        • Re:OR (Score:4, Insightful)

          by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Friday October 27, 2023 @01:21PM (#63958855) Homepage Journal

          TPM is certainly not and should not be a hard requirement, but to say it's of no value is plainly wrong. The TPM is quite useful, and even desirable in many circumstances, and has uses far beyond DRM. In fact, Linux is getting the plumbing to use the TPM for things such as disk encryption and pin or finger print login.

          #donotwant. The TPM is ultimately not under my control, I'm not storing anything of value there.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

            #donotwant. The TPM is ultimately not under my control, I'm not storing anything of value there.

            It's completely under your control. It's a device in your computer. Your OS makes it accessible.

            You can have it generate a key, generate a keypair and return the public key, erase keys, and other options. The spec is open and you can do whatever the heck you want.

            For example, disk encryption. TPM can generate a key for the OS which can be used by the OS to encrypt the disk key. That disk key can be revealed to th

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by PPH ( 736903 )

        What happens to their machines?

        We buy them and install systemd.

    • THAT and a lot of people, myself included, hate the UI changes for the sake of UI changes. Why does MS get to dictate what our desktops look like?

      Alan Bradley : Given the prices we charge to students and schools, what sort of improvements have been made in Flynn... I mean, um, ENCOM OS-12?
      Richard Mackey : This year we put a "12" on the box.

      - from Tron: Legacy

      • Sorry for the offtopic gushing, but I fucking loved that movie. The scene in the basement of Flynn's Arcade was so classic. Olivia Wilde's character is amazing. Tron was inspiring and wicked cool in the arena. The Daft Punk soundtrack was too cool. I bought it on 3D Bluray and it's just amazing on a big TV.

    • Re:OR (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Luckyo ( 1726890 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:48AM (#63958533)

      Wait until you find out about shit like encryption of installation disk by default as a part of installation of at least some of the versions of 11. Already starting to hear from people who have no idea what it is having something in their win11 motherboard fail (awesome post-covid QC on those btw), pulling the disk to get their data out as they've always done before in such cases, putting it into another PC and finding out that it's encrypted, and the keys are on the dead motherboard.

      Notably one of the "selling points" of hardware TPM. Preventing easy recovery from one of the most common hardware failure modes.

      Key does get copied to microsoft's cloud, so if you did everything just right, you can get the key back and recover the data eventually. You'll have to jump thought quite a few hoops, and god forbid you have an image backup. That's also encrypted. I.e. your drive is encrypted to protect it from you, but not from anyone who might actually want your data, like Big Data collectors such as microsoft. And that's done silently by default on installation. The only known way to disable it is to install with offline account. Which is disabled by default as well and currently requires pulling internet access at specific point during installation to enable.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by caseih ( 160668 )

        I got modded down for saying the same thing the other day. Thanks for stating these concerns so clearly (way better than I did). I share these concerns, and I know it's going to cause data loss for more than a few people. Not to mention a lot more e-waste, just like phones now.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Luckyo ( 1726890 )

          Worth remembering that slashdot modding is pretty damn random. I just got modded down to troll in a thread where I just laid out the facts behind the problem of EVs and fires and what we'll need to do to mitigate them.

          It is what it is. State your case, do it as well as you can and move on. Haters will hate.

    • Re:OR (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ThePawArmy ( 952965 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:54AM (#63958547)
      But without a TPM how can we securely implement the many software as a service subscriptions we have in the works won’t you please think of the shareholders, oh and their children!!!

    • I believe those Win11 pre-reqs were done to appease OEM's who missed out on the last Win7 to Win10 upgrade cycle since it was free and ran fine on existing eqpt.

    • No, don't just remove the requirement. TPM was a good thing. People don't understand it, but it DOES increase security in a meaningful way, and if the line wasn't drawn it'd be another decade before a lot of people ever saw it. You don't have to understand it to benefit.

      It would be nice, though, to have some kind of patch for older devices to allow them to upgrade after clicking through several warnings, and maybe with a certain features withheld, for laptops that can't just add a $20 usb TPM module as a pr

      • I didn't say remove TPM, I said to remove it as Requirement. We use TPM encryption here at work, and I don't want it gone. But for HOME users it is less likely to add much in benefits.

    • How many corporations would then sue Microsoft for all the millions of dollars they spent on hardware upgrades? I don't really see a way for them to backpedal on this one easily...
  • As owner of one of the laptops that was not eligible for Windows 11, I can just switch over to Linux, and the device will serve me for several more years.

    Now when I do need to buy a new computer, well, MacOS will suffice. Especially since I decide when the updates happen, not Apple, and not the continuing Microsoft BOHICA update paradigm.

    While they are not as bad as they used to be with messing up the computer with updates, the downloaded but not yet installed update still often makes the computer uns

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Moryath ( 553296 )

      Now when I do need to buy a new computer, well, MacOS will suffice

      You mean the same Apple/MacOS that's forcibly obsoleting machines a mere 4 years old with this year's Sonoma requirements? [apple.com]

      • Mine is 2016. The only thing bad about it is that the keyboard is falling apart (Butterfly) and I have recently heard I may be able to get a replacement for $200 if I wanted. Yet for some reason I can't even keep using it if I don't want to because as far as I know, it cannot be used for linux, and I got it for ios development, so once xcode doesn't work it's a frisbee.

      • Now when I do need to buy a new computer, well, MacOS will suffice

        You mean the same Apple/MacOS that's forcibly obsoleting machines a mere 4 years old with this year's Sonoma requirements? [apple.com]

        You do understand that not being eligible for the latest OS does not mean the end of support, I hope. That Apple.

  • So, just use Linux instead of throwing all out.

    • What happens when PC manufacturers lock Linux out and only support Windows Boot for security? You think it's not possible, but they already tried this once and is the only way, along with Hypervisor running on SoCs with Full Execution Control through signed binaries with secure cryptography, to completely secure any system entirely.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Dadoo ( 899435 )

        What happens when PC manufacturers lock Linux out and only support Windows Boot for security?

        You know how some Linux fans say, "we should try to make Linux more popular", and other Linux fans say, "we don't care how popular Linux is, it does what I want?" The people saying they don't care need to STFU. Why do they think hardware manufacturers haven't locked down their hardware already?

        When a enough people call up the company and ask, "does your hardware have Linux drivers", they're going to write Linux driv

    • Also, this is pretty far from secure now days.

    • Exactly this.

      There is now an interesting possible openning for Linux to be installed in many desktop PCs and Laptops. Especially in the poorer countries. Maybe even mandated by the poorer countries to support more OSS stuff, since Windows 10 is going to be unsupported soon and many may not be able to afford another system just to get Windows 11.

      Let's see if any Linux distros / OSS orgs are looking into this.

    • For those who don't believe me, I have a TPM 2.0 Desktop that can already disable the ability to install Linux. You have to disable security features to be able to even boot. This is the future of computing. They are literally going to try to kill Linux on the Desktop, because EternalBlue uses grub bootloader to circumvent windows booting securely. They also have to think about Blue Pill hypervisor hijacks. It's not easy, which is why I'm on the fence about all of this. Security is important, but so is Fre
      • Sorry, meant to say BlackLotus malware instead of BlueEternal, but BlackLotus actually used BlueEternal in multiple chain of attacks.

    • I'm looking forward to buying some cheap hardware to run Linux on, there's going to be a lot of used machines showing up on auction and refurb sites over the next two years.

    • So, just use Linux instead of throwing all out.

      "Linux on the Desktop" will never be a thing, for the same reason it's never been a thing: no unified desktop stack and software. There is no one GUI for all developers to work in and all users to use. And if Linus or anyone else tried to push one, the whole desktop scene would immediately fragment even further just to send a big "Fuck You, you can't tell me what to do!".

      Guys like Valve would love a singular Linux desktop standard. So would Corel, Mozilla, and all the other parties that would benefit from a

      • "Linux on the Desktop" will never be a thing, for the same reason it's never been a thing: no unified desktop stack and software. There is no one GUI for all developers to work in and all users to use.

        Nice strawman you used there. Shame that Linux doesn't work that way. Applications in Linux are almost completely desktop-agnostic, with the split between X and Wayland being the primary exception. You don't develop one version of Firefox for gnome, one for KDE, one for Xfce and so on, you just have a Li

  • The TPM requirement is bogus (Score:5, Informative)

    by brunes69 ( 86786 ) <[slashdot] [at] [keirstead.org]> on Friday October 27, 2023 @11:00AM (#63958401)

    The TPM requirement is trivial for those skilled-in-the-art to bypass, you can Google instructions for how to do it and videos on YouTube.

    I did it myself successfully, and have been running Win 11 on a laptop with no TPM for over a year, all updates work fine and no issues have occured.

    Which just proves how bogus the TPM requirement is; it is completely arbitrary and a form of planned obsolescence to try to force people to buy new machines with new Windows licenses.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by DarkOx ( 621550 )

      that you can isn't the point. If you do that the product is basically unsupported.

      Microsoft should do the right thing here is not slap an 'arbitrary' hardware requirements on the platform. The fact you can 'easily bypass' the requirement proves it is arbitrary its not like that have implemented the system in a way that it cannot run without the TPM hardware or with TPM 1.x hardware.

      I have experience to running it on VMs, VMs running on hardware that otherwise would not support it at that! It runs fine.. a

      • What do you mean "basically unsupported"? Are you and me and every other "computer guy people call for help" going to stop supporting our friends and family Windows 11 PCs because they bypassed TPM (are we even going to check?) The only official support I want from Microsoft is security patches and I'm a bit suspect of those!

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Nkwe ( 604125 )

      Which just proves how bogus the TPM requirement is; it is completely arbitrary and a form of planned obsolescence to try to force people to buy new machines with new Windows licenses.

      Are passwords and non-privileged access bogus and arbitrary too? Is the requirement of needing password to log in and using sudo (or similar) to get root access arbitrary? How about using a firewall to block inbound connections from the Internet?

      While you can (and did) make the argument that you believe the motivation of Microsoft is to sell more licenses, there is another motivation to ship a system that is in a secure configuration when used by non-computer-expert users. Many of the security features in W

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by brunes69 ( 86786 )

        False.

        The only features Windows uses the TPM for are DRM related. It is not required for Windows Hello or any other security-related feature of windows. You *CAN* use it with BitLocker, but you can use BitLocker just as securely without a TPM.

        The main purpose of TPM chips are for DRM and DRM-esque applications like Secure Boot.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by DarkOx ( 621550 )

          Indeed and for your typical home user tying bitlocker to the mainboard is probably a bad idea in terms of recover-ability if something goes/wrong bad.

          very few home users make good backups. In most cases they'd be better off not encrypting at all if it is a PC. The chances of an offline attack hurting them in most cases are remote. If you do break into my house, you can toss my plastic file box in with the rest of the loot you'll get almost as much in the way of account info etc as you would picking thru my

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by Nkwe ( 604125 )

          False.

          The only features Windows uses the TPM for are DRM related. It is not required for Windows Hello or any other security-related feature of windows. You *CAN* use it with BitLocker, but you can use BitLocker just as securely without a TPM.

          The main purpose of TPM chips are for DRM and DRM-esque applications like Secure Boot.

          The TPM has a variety of uses [microsoft.com]. Whether they are all DRM related is a matter of opinion as is what "DRM" means to the speaker. Granted in this forum DRM usually refers to copy protection and is considered a negative thing. Outside this echo chamber (of the DRM topic), there are anti-malware functions and secure private key storage, which are positive use cases of a TPM even if you call it "DRM".

    • Sure, it's easy to install Windows 11 anyway. I've done a few of these as a test. What's not clear yet it how these machines will handle the major annual updates.

      Right now, the current version of Windows 11 is 22H2, but we're due any day now for a 23H2 release, and it's not clear if a machine that bypassed the CPU checks will be able to just get that update in the normal way. If it doesn't get that update, 22H2 should continue to get security patches for the next 12ish months (currently shows as expiring Oc

      • Grandma can not reinstall Windows anyway so that's not relevant.

        The point I am making is the TPM requirement is arbitrary and Microsoft should remove it, and if they don't then the EU should force them to remove it under planned obsolescence legislation

  • They can't relax the hardware requirements of Windows 11 because of security implications around the OS regarding TPM integrations. Basically they can't secure the UEFI and protect firmware without TPM 2.0 and eventually it will be TPM 3.0 or something new with the same life expectancy. Also, they can't control your OS and entire PC without it being 100% secured against any other OS, including Linux or firmware attacks. Windows 10 can delete files right off your PC, because of cloud monitoring and cloud int

  • The only reason is TPM support and that can be easily emulated by Microsoft.

    The CPU support is just a lame excuse.

  • Fraud (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) *

    A petition is weak, but it always pays to ask nice first.

    I actually bought a copy of Win10 Pro based on Microsoft's assurances that Windows 10 would be "the last version of Windows" and that they were adopting a rolling-distro model.

    Made sense to me!

    But "of course - they're Microsoft!" which just means nobody holds them to account for crimes like fraud.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20... [archive.org]

  • And contract it out to third party companies who are willing to patch it as long as there are paying customers.

    • If you are willing to pay, and run the right version which also involves paying, you can get Windows 10 updates until 2032 from Microsoft directly. Microsoft will still be making patches for years after official support stops, they are just super stingy with them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by dryeo ( 100693 )

      OS/2 is mostly getting features added, not security patches. Sure, replacing LanManager with Samba fixes big security holes, for things like the kernel, without source code, it is patching to fix bugs, mostly memory related as IBM never dreamed of OS/2 running on hardware with GB's of ram, or like current hardware, the lower 4GB's of ram being fragmented to the degree you might end up with 1.5GB of addressable ram.

  • Shhh-shh. There there now. Sleep, sleep deeply, dear windows.
  • Instead of condemning computers to a landfill, they should remain operational with a Linux distro installed. If any government decided to charge MicroSoft for recycling the computers it considers to be obsolete, MS might consider supporting hardware for longer amounts of time. Maybe? but I doubt it...

  • Everyone wants in on my boring life (Score:4, Insightful)

    by GoGoGadgetWhiskey ( 4556297 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @12:45PM (#63958697)
    Windows telemetry. Mac/iOS so-called security (it's really just them blocking their competitors from getting your personal/meta data, they readily suck it down to sell you fancy-looking crap you don't need, make no mistake). Now they are all forcing us to use their stupid "AI" bullsh!t and trying to convince us there's value in it. Oh there's value in it all right, for them collecting more of our personal data, and using more energy to do it, by orders of magnitude. And make no mistake, all these companies forcing you to get more compute to run your new OS... that is just the AI beast hungry for more ad revenue! If it were illegal for an ad company to use the compute you own against you, a lot of people would lose their jobs, but it would at least be the right people being put out of work. I think that's a good start. But alas, I don't control that. I do control what OS I use. Maybe it's time to switch to Linux.
  • I started from 3.1. Barring Windows 8 and 8.1, they were all fine, even 98 and Vista. But with 11, I had just about enough -- anything that I see or hear is a disaster (UI, TPM, etc). Windows at work only.

  • Probably millions of people want the next Microsoft product. I'm pretty confident that these people exist.

    But I've never met one. Maybe once, 20+ years ago, but not since. Everyone else upgrades because Microsoft forces them to by using fuckery that we all think should be illegal under antitrust laws.

  • How many devices and machines are in landfills because Apple decides that that device isn't compatible with IOS or MacOS ? How many devices are in landfills because they shut off 3G networks?

  • The TMP 2.0 and Intel 8th gen CPU requirements are only for upgrading. The Windows 11 requirements for a clean install are TPM 1.1 and more than 1 core. You can install Windows 11 on a very old machine as most Intel 6th and 7th gen motherboards include TPM 1.1. I even have a 4th gen CPU that did not need any bypass crap to do a clean Windows 11 install. And yes, it runs fast as long as you use an SSD. I hope you are not video editing on a 4th gen Intel CPU. Call your neighbors 15-year-old son so he ca
  • Everyone realizes that around 80 Million Xbox 360's are headed to landfills next year when they completely pull their support from live and marketplace, right? Mainly because they refuse to release the signing keys to be able to easily utilize them as cheap PC alternatives. Xbox One's are next which have amazing security and will likely be heading to landfills because of CORPORATE policy. What a waste of secure hardware design. Basically, just make them and their friends money, until it dries up and then
  • I guess we need a new OS that's more secure than Linux and BSD on the same par with Windows that can completely squash Microsoft once and for all. Impossible at this point...

  • Computers are durable goods now (and more) (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Torodung ( 31985 ) on Friday October 27, 2023 @04:51PM (#63959743) Journal

    TL;DR: Modern computers are durable goods. They can be supported with LTS contracts. Companies need to get used to a reality where computers last at least 10 years.

    I agree with PIRG. Computers no longer need to be upgraded every three years due to massive enhancements in capabilities. They're durable goods now, like a car.

    I have a Win 10 machine downstairs based on an ASUS Z87 mainboard. That supports a 4th generation Core i5. It will continue to serve its function until its caps start to leak. That is the definition of a durable good. It has a usable lifetime of 10 years plus, like a car or a refrigerator, and as long as there is a 3rd party support ecosystem, with parts available and competent repair shops, it can go even longer. My wife literally needs half of what that computer can do for her home office. It is more than up to the task. And she runs STATA, ffs.

    But once again, manufacturers and software publishers refuse to change their business plan to match reality. Those good old days are gone, but they want to force adherence to them. They want to EOS perfectly good hardware and claim it's EOL. The reality is that that computer is probably good for 25 years. I'm sorry to the corporations involved, but the Moore's law, new computer every 3-5 years days are over. Done. No amount of shenanigans with planned obsolescence will change that. These companies need to change with the times. They are fighting that hard. They're gonna lose. People will often impress you with dumb, but they are not, as a savvy consumer market, that stupid. Nobody wants to spend $800 every three years on a new PC.

    As of right now, the third party software ecosystem is Linux, but there is no legitimate reason Microsoft couldn't extend support for Win10 until the cows come home. Remember when they suggested 10 would be the last version of Windows? They can and should maintain it with a nominal upgrade/LTS fee. $250 for two years of LTS at a go is preferable to landfilling the thing because it doesn't run the latest software. That's cheaper per annum than Amazon Prime. Don't be cheap or stubborn. People who don't want to pay for LTS can always do Linux.

    Yes. I'm suggesting a subscription model. You subscribe to LTS, like enterprise customers can do already. Sorry, but that is actually how we stop landfilling perfectly good hardware. It will be tricky to keep it from becoming a yearly subscription for any OS, but it's what needs to happen. Otherwise, it is unreasonable to expect companies to support software with no revenue stream whatsoever.

    But by 2010 at the latest these desktops and laptops became, without a doubt, durable goods. None of these older computers are obsolete. With an SSD, even a 1st gen Core machine is viable. I have one. It's fine. It is absolutely possible to support them with software. There is nothing in Microsoft Office that needs to be kept up-to-date with the latest OS bells and whistles. This is a stable, durable market. It's high time that the involved corporations changed to match that reality.

    Now we go into double-overtime TL;DR territory, because I've got more to say about this. I know you thought the paragraphs above needed a TL;DR, but I can go for quite a while. There is no TL;DR for this. The case has to be made in detail.

    Switching topics...

    I'm seeing comments about the increased requirements for Windows 11, and I want to address them. All the TPM crap is not about security. It's not about planned obsolescence or bolstering the desktop market. I'm seeing a lot of these theories in the threads for this article, so I'm going to give my opinion on the matter.

    It's about lock-in. If your computer doesn't have secure boot enabled, the security center proudly declares that it does not "support standard hardware security." It absolutely does. It's just off. Microsoft is trying to scare people. Declaring that a machine doesn't support standard security is a deliberate attempt to make it sound inferior to the layperson.

    Furthermo

  • Who in his right mind would throw such hardware in a landfill?
    Surely anywhere in the civilized world you can take them to a place for recycling.

    Also, a lot of these computers can stay useful because they are perfectly able to run one of the many versions of Linux.

  • ... 400 million PCs can't make the jump to Windows 11.

    It's not just Windows 11, it's Google enforcing PassKey authentication on every account. Every account must now be 'verified' (think Windows Activation) by a physical device.

    I have a Google calendar running a meeting-room schedule: For 7 years, I told my software what meeting to arrange, it would upload the allotted appointment to Google Calendar which would then push it to other employees' calendars. Starting this month (October), Google Calendar refuses to talk to my scheduling software. It needs ve

  • My computer system has a long heritage, being a Ship of Theseus. Almost half of my life at this point. It lacks a TPM as of its current build. I cannot upgrade to Win11, and my hands won't allow me to do a compatible rebuild right now. The lack of long-duration aftermarket support that M$ provides for Windoze is as distressing as it was with many previous versions of Windoze.

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