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Technology

U.S. Army To Develop "JEDI" Soldiers 212

Patrixmyth wrote to us with the CNN story about the U.S. Army's attempt to build Jedi Soldiers. Yes, they're going to dress up Sir Alec Guinness...er, rather Jedi is Joint Expeditionary Digital Information, which, essentially, is the Wired Soldier of Tomorrow. Palmtops, GPS, satellite up-links, oh my!
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U.S. Army To Develop "JEDI" Soldiers

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  • an outfitted JEDI vest costs almost $30,000.

    Not quite free as in beer, is it? I wonder how much they could have saved without using a (I'm assuming) special version of Windows CE.

    kwsNI

  • I wonder if the military picked the acronym first, then hunted around for words to fit?

    This sounds like yet another way for people to kill other people without even having to be in the same zip code. Seems to me it's easier to kill people if you don't have to look at them. I vote we go back to bashing at each other with swords - I have a strong feeling people have gotten so soft in the last hundred or so years that the amount of dead people would dwindle quickly. Besides, it's far harder to hide a 4 foot long bastard sword in one's backpack when going to school.
  • So how much does all this gear weigh? I seem to recall an old newspaper article discussing their development of a high-tech rifle, and noting that it was HEAVY compared to, say, your usual M16 variant. Much, much heavier, which you'd think might be an issue in built-up areas situation where you might have to react VERY quickly.

    Then there's reliability. Unreliable gear might be worse than none at all if it leads to overconfidence or other forms of misjudgement. The more complex a system is, the more possible points of failure -- witness, say, the AH64 variants, which from what I've read are remarkably nifty, but also very poor from a maintenance perspective, with a high rate of cannibilazation for parts. OTOH, simpler crafts like B52s are still in service, and with updates are expected to serve for years to come...
  • I disagree. It only takes a few hours to learn how to operate a rifle, just as it only takes a few hours to learn how to swing a sword. To be proficient with any weapon is a more difficult.

    The point was that the electronics suck right now, but they'll improve and we'll want to be proficient at utilizing them effectively when the time comes. It takes a lot longer to integrate them into a unit as a whole, with appropriate tacticts than to train an individual soldier to use his equipment.
  • I came across the "Land Warrior Project" website over a year ago. I bookmarked it and went back a couple of weeks later. It was gone. The "LWP" project is a next generation JEDI system. It is a fully integrated weapons system in which the meat soldier is not much more then a propulsion system. Even some degree of fire control was to be maintained by those in the rear. Scary. Very scary.
  • From what I understand, Windows CE is distributed much like other RTOS, complete source, but with big chunks missing for things that need to be developed for your specific hardware platform. A version for a JEDI probably isn't any more or less "special" than a Windows CE device from Casio. Also, I've heard that Microsofts royalies for Windows CE are really reasonable, probably comparing favorably to an eCos support contract.
  • I might point out that the English colonized India (shooting unarmed protestors "just isn't cricket"). Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if the Germans had colonized India instead ("please step up against that wall, Heir Gandi").

    Non-violent protest only works against non-violent institutions.
  • They say that the army isn't getting as many men as they'd like... Just make a helmet/glasses/etc. that shows a Quake 3 HUD, UT HUD, etc. that counts their "frags" and they'll have us lining up to join. :)
    Now maybe we can justify our large $$$ computer purchases and years of neglect in favour of "Just one more match" as training to "better defend our country!"
  • by tringstad ( 168599 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @05:46AM (#1121377)
    &nbsp Given, also, that my main tool - my weapon - was fragile and sensitive to even the most minor of abuses that occur in the field, do they really think something like a PDA and a CELL PHONE are going to survive a grunt's life?

    &nbsp Not to mention the fact that given the military's nature to train (read brainwash) grunts to react to any situation in an instinctive manner, what happens when it does fail? Will they know what to do without it?

    &nbsp Any military man will tell you that this can be an infantryman's worst nightmare, and not because they are afraid that it may happen to them and they won't know what to do. Quite the contrary, grunts (esp. Marines) are well equipped to "adapt and overcome", but as we all know, there's always one knucklehead, and he's the one that gets his fireteam killed.

    &nbsp Were I still in, the idea of such fragile technology on the battlefield would terrify me, although it would be a great toy for back in the barracks.

  • Considering that these things run WinCE straight from the Evil Empire, I think they should be called SITH: Soldier's Information and Tactical... um, H-something...

    Handheld
  • by slashdot-me ( 40891 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @09:13AM (#1121379)
    Please reboot for the changes to take effect.

    Ryan
  • I suppose if Brittania gets a hold of this they'll have a specialized group of JEDI, all of whom have been knighted... :)


    - // Zarf //
  • I sure think some people (like you) said "Ill stick with my sword" When the idea of acctually fire at someone with a rifle surfaced. I know that in certain situations a solider (more kinds than grunts I might add) should go with his rifle instead of downloading stuff on his PDA or whatever, but saying soliders shouldnt have more gadgets than rifles are just plain stupied. Assuming they wont have any use of such gadgets are also just narrowminded. I am not a grunt maybe thats why I realize this. There are other ways to fight a war than by telling grunts to kill.......my guess would be that the most feared enemies in the future are those who never pick up a gun!
  • Having been an infantryman in the Army and both a medic and CSSO (computer systems security officer) in the Air Force, and being currently a software and Web developer, I have to say that anyone who thinks that military personnel are a bunch of idiots who will "stay as far away from computers as they can" is both extremely prejudiced and very ignorant of the military. Computers already defend your country. Military life is very physical, true, but dumb jocks don't cut it.

    The real issue is that grunts are deeply and justifiably suspicious of expensive, high-tech equipment that is likely to fail under the filthy conditions that characterize a combat soldier's life in the field. The flashy stuff is great when it works. When it doesn't, it's worse than useless. And this system runs on Windows CE? Apparently the brass hasn't learned a damned thing from those hacker attacks, not to mention an entire missile cruiser suffering massive NT failure ...
  • When you're as big an outfit as the US military, you don't need to build a new system from consumer products; you can do it better and cheaper (and hella secreter) if you spec and build it yourself. I think not. Granted, NASA has had some problems with their new approach to projects, but they've just pushed too fast. NASA used to say "We need a camera that can operate in extreme cold and in a sealed atmosphere so we can put it on a satelite" So they'd put a bunch of engineers on the project and have them design it, then buy the parts. Then somebody had the sense to turn to the worlds largest camera companies and say "Do you have one of those?" and they said "Yes, we've been selling them for use on submarines for over 30 years...we can help you modify it for use in space too." So, while yes, the army doesn;t need to be useing off the shelf consumer goods, consumer quality goods are many times some of the best ther are. -DW
  • The enemy need not be all that advanced themselves, just have advanced backers or access to advanced systems.

    Example: Afghanistan.

    Soviet Union sent in some fairly advanced stuff against what they expected to be a buncha guys with rifles and rocks. Surprise, those guys had more than rifles and rocks. Sure, there were other factors and things do change, but one thing remains: You are not fighting the enemy. You are fighting the enemy and any allies (even unwitting ones) he may have.
  • This problem in these sorts of situations is revenue. Businesses dealing with free software just don't have enough cash to afford to buy persons of Congress or Senators. MS does.
  • There are so many things wrong with this idea that it's not even funny. Is this a stable operating system? Not!!!. Excuse me Sarge, I have to reboot the system before we can call in artillery support on those troops attacking us. Cell Phones? Quick, how fast can you triangulate on a radio signal? One second? Maybe two? Why not just send those troops in with spotlights to make it even easier for the other side to call in artillery on their positions. And how much does all this stuff weigh? Don't these poor ground pounders have enough to carry around? And the good old bug-a-boo, EMP (Electro-Magnetic Pulse). Just detonate any kind of nuke (even a cheap dirty one) over the battlefield, and all these wonderful tech-toys are now just a pile of junk! Somebody get these guys on the clue train....
  • I have noticed, however, working in a tech support department, that those whose lives consist of something that is stereotypically NOT a computer-linked career, like athletics or military, tend to stay as far from computers as they can. Same for those who don't understand how to use a computer.

    Good luck to the military trying to teach these soldiers how to use them. Even tougher, enforcing the use of them (as opposed to leaving it behind in the big round metal bucket in the barracks.)
  • Well, maybe they'll have a nice paperclip friend on their palmtop, to help them with their system on the battlefield. :)

  • Back in the old, pre Return of the Jobsi Apple, I saw a demo of a Newton based battle system that the Marines were supposed to be messing around with.

    Does anyone else remember seeing this application for the good old Newton, rip?
  • It really bothers me when I see Windows in use at government locations.
    The idea is the lowest bidder gets the contract as long as the lowest bidder fits the specs.
    One thing about this is it's clear open source software is not given a look. Free will beat any bid any company can give.
    It also means a larg slize of closed source software was also passed over.
    Theoreticly the popularity of software is not taken into account. Linux has no advantage over BSD in this market.
    As we are aware there are a huge amount of imbeded, desktop and server operating systems out there many of whom are far supereor to Windows at a lower cost.
    Yet Microsoft consistently gets the bid...
    It bugs me... How can the requirements fit Windows and not fit Solarus?
    Why dose Windows CE get the bid over PalmOS or Geoworks?

    I don't expect to walk into city offices one day and see Linux but I'd like to walk into city offices one day and see something that dose the job (unless the job is waisting taxpayer money).
  • Obviously, it would be best to protect all this expensive equipment. Just put it inside a hardened plastic case which the soldier can wear [theforce.net].

    Seriously, they have some implementation problems.

    • They chose Windows CE, which the manufacturer has abandoned or renamed.
    • They used the Iridium satellite network, which the vendor has abandoned.
  • IMHO, both high-tech equipment and basic training are necessary. Throwing away high-tech stuff is just throwing out the baby with the bath water. High-tech equipment is necessary, and very useful. But. The Army should not be deceived by the illusion of safety that technology gives them. The soldiers need to learn basic skills that will be essential when the high-tech stuff fails. Technology does give an edge to the army -- however, only when used rightly. And relying on the false confidence (i.e. dependence) on technology is not to use it rightly. When the technology is available, by all means use it. But the soldiers also need to be trained what to do when there is no equipment to depend on. It's foolish to not fly when you have wings and jet engines. But it's equally foolish to not have landing gear just because you can fly. Use what is available, but always be prepared when it will no longer be available.
  • by oni ( 41625 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @04:03AM (#1121393) Homepage
    EPLRS, which is the location-finding part of this, uses spread spectrum burst transmission and sends very small packets of data. I am told (though I admit it sounds too good to be true) that it is virtually impossible to use direction-finding equipment to pinpoint the user's location. We don't have the technology to do it and neither does the enemy.

    The people who make decisions about purchasing this kind of stuff are smart enough to ask the same questions as you. More importantly, they know what artillery does to signal sites that's give away their positions. So don't sweat it. Personally, I am more worried about my boss being able to track my location. Questions like "Why did you spend all day at that location?" are way too much micro-management for my tastes.

    This is intended as just one more way to give situational awareness to soldiers, and in that respect it's a good thing (tm)

    oni
  • GPS systems...all soldiers interlinked to each other...heldheld access to information...

    They sound more like Storm troopers to me!

    -DW
  • Here is a first account of these technologies in action under trying battlefield conditions: blackhawk down. [philly.com]

    This is an account of the Delta Force and Army Rangers in Mogadishu, Somalia on the day a dozen Americans and perhaps 500 Somalis died. The "D-boys," basically Navy Seals with JEDI-like technology, consistently and vastly outperform the more numerous but conventionally armed Rangers. Adimittedly, the Delta Force is an elite unit, but Army Rangers are no slouches. The communications/computing technology, in the hands of properly trained troops, made a huge difference on the battlefield. Had they had the GPS techonlogy integrated into individual soldiers gear, several American (and many Somali) lives would have been saved.

    Read it for yourself: http://www.philly.com/packages/somalia/nov16/defau lt16.asp

  • First things first. Your entire post ranted at me as if I had advocated violence as *the* one and only way to resolve disputes. Clearly you're a peace nazi. Shut up, or at least try to remember what the post you reply to said.Second, I never said that violent offenders aren't responsible because violence is genetic, I only said that because violence is genetically part of us, it isn't going away real soon.As for the rest of your post, you obviously just needed a good rant, which everyone does once in a while. After all it's a form of violence :)peace, asshole

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • New Recruits==Pathetic Arses Doing Anything With A Nine (?)

    Can anyone think of a better one?
  • This sounds alot like starcraft without the resources. You click on a bunch of icons, right click where you want them to go, then the gps system alerts each individual soldier where they are supposed to be...
  • Diabolic Android Running Towards Humans
  • Actually, they have a very simple countermeasure for IR. It's some kind of pattern silkscreened on the camos. I asked my buddy about it when he came home from the Air Force, sed it was an IR countermeasure. Don't know how effective it is, or if some special material is in the ink.

    I'd also be willing to bet that if us military simpletons out here on /. can think this stuff up, so can they. I would like to suggest maybe they have thought up come contermeasures or have done some kind of cost/benefit analysis. Then again, maybe not. They chose CE. This, from the gov't that invents its own floor wax...Don't they at least have their own operating system somewhere?

  • by waterhouse ( 80515 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:38AM (#1121401) Homepage
    think of all the geeks who will rush to enlist only to find out they fall miserably short of the physical requirements.


  • May the force be with them...
  • Isn't it rather apparent that the US Army has been having trouble enlisting these days, and are now resorting to flashy gimmickry to try to entice new recruits?

    I swear, between the $$$ commercials on prime time TV and these lame new attempts to seem hip, it's starting to seem more and more like the Starship Troopers future...

  • >>Anyone with a decent IQ understands that war and physical violence are unnecessary.
    Thats the most dumb-as-shit thing I've heard in at least a week. People have disputes. They also have tempers. While it is in everyone's power to control their own temper, it is in no-one's power to control the other person's temper, barring VIOLENCE. Nonviolence works sometimes. And sometimes it gets you killed. Just because the teletubbies or whatever you've been watching have told you the world is happy and shiny doesnt mean there's not a killer living in your town.Grow up, while you have the chance.

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • Someone please send them the cluestick. I'll even pay for postage.

    • It runs Microsoft Windows CE software using a 233 MHz Pentium II processor, packs 32 MB of RAM, and has a touch-active screen.

    Ugh!

    darren


    Cthulhu for President! [cthulhu.org]
  • Actually the USGOVT cant sell anything like that to anyone. I live 40 miles from the Handford/Manhattan site and we can't buy the power from the site (which puts out something like 250MW i think). Instead we buy from the Dam (on the Snake river! NO DAM BREACHES!) ..
  • Sweet, so will the new Tom Clancy movie have them into it? Can Samuel L. Jackson play a Jedi Master?



    kwsNI

  • First, let me admit that building something from scratch isn't always the best route. BUT!!! :)

    There's a big difference between the example you gave and what I wrote: Nasa probably doesn't need those cameras in bulk. At least not the way the military needs soldiers in bulk; Of course it's going to be cheaper and tons faster to go out and buy X amount of parts, while X is relatively small. Even if you pay 100 times what a scratch-built part would have cost, you skip the design costs entirely.On the other hand, when you intend to outfit a large number of units with this part, the constant design cost will fade into the background if you design a cheaper unit which does everything you need and nothing you don't.In all fairness I should have said

    When you're as big an outfit as the US military, and you're building a lot of units you don't need to build a new system from consumer products; you can do it better and cheaper (and hella secreter) if you spec and build it yourself.You're again right when you say that consumer products are many times the best there are: however, what's "best" in the consumer market can vary wildly with what's "best" in the military market. And since these devices are likely going to serve a few VERY specific purposes, IMHO the military could've probably saved some money, and gotten a more field-appropriate tool by designing it themselves. Like I said in the article its my opinion.[Flame shield on]

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • Or, depending on the lighting, the Paisley Or ORange Screen Of Death. What fun...
  • ...or at the veryleast require royalties?
  • by pe1rxq ( 141710 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:40AM (#1121411) Homepage Journal
    Does this mean it really becomes the 'blue screen of DEATH'

    Grtz, Jeroen

  • I think we all agree that if you take the best techology today and try to create a wired soldier, you're going to end up with an unreliable, inpractical mess. I'm sure the top brass knows this too, they have to be smart and practical to get to where they are.

    So why the hell are we burning all this money on it for? Practice. One day, perhaps around 2030 or so, it may be practicle. Compare what we have know with what we had 30 years ago. Then extrapolate that 30 years in the future. Much Smaller, more useful, more reliable, etc etc.

    When that day comes (if it comes - history doesn't guarantee the future), do we want to start from scratch wiring our armed forces? No, we want to have been testing and playing with the technology for 30 years, working out the kinks.

    So, it would be foolish for our units to use this stuff in a real world combat enviroment (or at least to rely on it), but we need the experience, so one day the transition will be less painful. (or would you rather we ignore it, stick to our m16s and shovels, and let China perfect it first?)

    Night vision must have seemed like a useless toy when it was first proposed, but it is a decisive tool.
    What about when firearms were first invented? We were stuck with these heavy impracticle muskets for a very long time. I'm sure people said "These are stupid, I'll just cut him open while he's reloading. It relies on gunpowder, you can't even get them wet! I'll equip my army with swords and longbows, thank you very much."

    Don't forget about airplanes! impracticle as all hell in 1903, extremely important in WWI less than 20 years later!

    So even though they seem impracticle today, give these emerging technologies a chance. Give our military decision makers some credit too, they're smarter than you think.
  • May the Source be with you.

    I read that in someone's sig, it didn't really fit until you have JEDIs running around.
  • Wouldn't that mean it's really a GPF receiver?!?!?! Cheers =)
    --
  • Hrmmm. If an opponent has the resources to consider a high-altitude nuclear detonation to cause an EMP, do you not have larger problems?
  • back in the old days groups never knew where your other soldiers where, in case you got caught by the enemy. Now what if some opponent got into there satiellite, then they would know all of their movements and locations. And i know if I saw an enemy, I would blast him befor ehe had a chance to kill me. Isn't it kewl that now a 15 old can take over a warship??
  • There was a documentary over a year ago on the British Army's FIST (Future Integrated Solder Technology) and the problems encountered on field trials (sunlight obscuring the helmet HUD, the digital compass not working, the routefinding equipment not registering waypoints correctly). The project manager at DERA (Defense Evaluation Research Agency) apparently did not get his contract renewed after this debacle. However, if you check the Wearable HOWTO, FIST is still proceeding and it gives more info on similar projects by several armed forces.
  • Heh. I can't see the US Marines mentioned without
    remembering a story about a Foreign Legion
    training camp's obstacle course.

    Said course was part of jungle training. Various
    other armies would send teams to try it out. The
    record for traversing it was, IIRC, 17min, and
    the average was about half an hour.

    2 hours after the Marines started the course, they
    had to radio for help getting out. One wonders
    if they thought about calling in some herbicide
    strikes first.

    Heh.

    K.
    -
  • ...Although, what I see coming out of this is basically use by recon top units (who tend to carry a bit more advanced equipment than your everyday grunt). Putting this in the hands of your everday soldier will prove (quickly I imagine) to be a bad idea. I bet a high percentage will find it useful in training and the like. Should they ever really get dropped into a combat situation though, I see all those things getting stuck in a pack or cargo pocket never to see the light of day again. Let's hope the field officers and NCO's have enough common sense to know that this stuff, while neat and useful in theory, will never beat a rifle, map and compass.

    -semper fi
  • I have noticed, however, working in a tech support department, that those whose lives consist of something that is stereotypically NOT a computer-linked career, like athletics or military, tend to stay as far from computers as they can.

    No offense intended here, but BULLSHIT. I teach scuba diving and because of this, I've worked with a number of Special OPs people (SEALS, Rangers, SWAT, and even members of the FBI HRT). In the new, modern military, they are really stressing computers because the government is finally recognizing the value and power that a computer holds. Many of these people are in computer training for hours each week. Many of these people can tell you more about Unix, data security or networking than you would ever need to know.

    Do are troops have enough computer knowledge? No. But I have to say that the military knows this and is doing a pretty good job of playing catch-up...

    kwsNI

  • Once you start down the dark path, forever will it rule your destiny. UNDERSTAND THAT, DO YOU, SOLDIER?
  • Does something seem kind of frightening to anyone else about putting GPS systems on soldiers? All I need is for the enemy to figure out how to access the system, and be able to pinpoint my exact location by sattellite.
  • Another thing, why does the government rule Microsoft a monopoly and then continue to support and buy their products? Its not punishment. And people wonder why Microsoft keeps tieing its browser to Windows after they were told not to.

    -Foxxz

    const int SIZE=100;
    cout "Girls know, " SIZE " matters\n";

  • James T. Kirk already resolved this issue. Yes, people must physically die in order for the combat to come to a conclusion. The conclusion is reached when one side finds it too painful to carry on.
  • First off they have been working on this system for almost 10 years so this is hardly a new story. Second, the military has already decided that remote soldiers or vehicles are not suitable for combat. The reason being that the remote feed can be jamed or intercepted( having your army turn around on you would kind of suck) and that any controller station in the world, say the US, would then be a fair target. And making US cities a bonified UN approved target is very frowned upon. All that leaves is the improvement of our deployed forces. AKA JEDI, Mobile Personnel Armor, and man portable smart weapons. And no these technologies are nothing like Quake.
  • >> this has nothing to do with security, they aren't running a web server where anyone can push and pull at it all they want!

    Well you're right, it isn't a web server (unless the DoD went with another poorly chosen off the shelf solution) that anyone who wants to can attack. On the other, much more important hand, this system has to stand up to a determined intruder who will die or worse if unsuccessful. An intruder who is likely probing military targets every day, every hour, silently looking for a weakness to exploit at just the wrong moment. Everyone doesn't have easy access to the system; that doesn't mean that it is a priori impregnable.

    >>if you want to get into them you either have to hold them in your hand or be able to crack the sat. system.

    Oh, i get it now. The satellites talk to the soldiers, and vice versa. The data never goes anywhere else? like say, command HQ? Are satellites invulnerable to cracking? (hint: no). We're not talking about security against 14 year old script kids. This is a military system, which will come under attack by military opponents. You and I may not be able to crack a sat whenever we get the urge, but do you want to gamble that China/Iraq/wherever CANNOT buy/rent/coerce the skills needed to do that? Would you bet the lives of hundreds or thousands of your countrymen on that gamble? Security is not a one step, one shot, fire and forget issue.

    >>plus when these things we(re) being designed, mobile linux/BSD most likely didn't even exist.

    [Sarcasm] Oh really! Wasn't BSD released before winCE?[/Sarcasm] BSD was probably ported to the Palm roughly 2 femtoseconds after the first commercial offering. And, this article is about a current initiative, not a historical one. Further, your use of the word 'plus' is grammatically incorrect :) It means "with the addition of", not "also".

    >>The palmtops are just dumb clients,

    No the article clearly states: The palmtop is "the brain of the system," Eubank said.

    >> This is not insightful, its just windows bashing.

    No, I actually meant what I wrote. I didn't just bullshit two pages for the opportunity to put down Windows and Microsoft. It MAY NOT be insightful, but neither is it "just windows bashing".

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • War and physical violence...
    I said they were unnecessary,
    I never said they didn't exist.
    I am not a violent person - BUT I do own weapons for my protection BECAUSE of the people that are.

    The whole point of my original post is simple:
    Warring nations can agree on treaties - compromises - etc...
    Why can't they agree to settle the differences in a nondestructive way?
    Oh well, go enlist and leave me alone.
  • Considering all the arms that the U.S. exports, either legally or illegally, maybe this is not such a bad idea...
  • As a Marine computer programmer (no, really!), I was charged with the thankless task of teaching other jarheads to use MSDOS. I pity the foo that has to teach these dogs how to use these things. I hope it at least displays pictures. First Star Wars, now Jedi's. How long until DoD contemplates building a Death Star?
  • Keep in mind that the U.S. Military also plans on replacing the ubiquitous M16A2 with the "Objective Infantry Combat Weapon" [planettimes.com]. While technology is nice, one has to wonder if we're abandoning superior training for superior equipment? Training is always useful. Technology is nice as long as the batteries last and the leads don't short and the parts don't bend and the innards don't get any dirt in them and, of course, you know what the hell you're doing.
  • Yeah, but the only reliable source of an EMP that I know of is a nuclear explosion. Right there you get into the realm of nuclear escalation, so ground troops really don't matter at that point.
  • I can't speak about the other services, but I know in the Air Force, most of the new Airmen have a good background in computers. The Air Force went to email as the primary sorce of diseminating information to the troups about two years ago. This has had a major effect on creating an Air Force that can deal with small computer problems in the field.

    I think that as long as the interface is extreemly simple to use, and the equipment is rugged enough, then this is definatly the wave of the future for all soldiers, not just the Special Ops folks.

  • It seems to me, that the army can pretty much do whatever it wants here, since they are the ones who ultimatly enforce the laws.
  • Sorry then, my error. Good on you for responding to my soi-flame with level headed clarity.
    Uh err, just because nations *can* agree, doesn't mean that's a good option though. Case in point: Nazi aggression in Europe. Can anyone give me a nonviolent solution that wouldn't have led to Hitler raping the continent silly before going after the rest of the world? Nonviolent as in, not killing anyone, nor threatening to if they don't comply.
    And as for your question,
    Why can't they agree to settle the differences in a nondestructive way?
    The answer is that they do often settle their differences nonviolently, or at least without all out war; However I get the feeling that maybe you want to know why they sometimes resort to violence, when a nonviolent solution is possible?I'd have to say it's because most people would rather die than suffer some injustices, and would often rather fight than die; this is true on national and personal levels.Until there's enough for everyone, and it's distributed "fairly", AND people stop lusting for more just because more seems attainable, there will be violence in some form. Hell, everyone is suing their neighbor and coworker over inane bullshit these days... thats a form of violence too!My (possibly totally foolish, possibly totally correct) conclusion is that we are violent because those ancestors of ours who were violent, were more prosperous and fruitful than those who chose nonviolence over greed.
    Might makes right. Not because some 'god' wrote it on a stone tablet, rather because the strong dominate the weak. Whoever's dominating, whoever gets their way, makes the rules. If they decide there will be no rules, the decision was still set by the dominant one. Life's not fair or pretty. Morals are situational. Facts are less than absolute. Wheee!!!!a

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • Tell that to the Air Force [slashdot.org]
  • >> It has been proven over and over again (from the Goths to the American Revolution to Vietnam)
    >> that distributed, guerilla-style fighting is less fragile...

    Goths proved this?
    I've never seen a Goth that was really interested in fighting. Seems like all they want to do is stand there in their black cloaks and pretend to be vampires.
  • Lets see, Navy builds smart ship, installs Windows NT for OS, and is stranded in the ocean for a few hours because of a divide by zero error somewhere. Navy realises NT sucks for ships. Army builds smart suit with CE, and during a test, a building is mistargeted and downtown Colorado Springs would have been hit had it not been a test. When will they ever learn. I guess they looked at the MS page compairing Palms against Palm PC's and never wondered why the battery life, size, and readibility outside were missing in the compairsion.
  • Sign me up! I'm a crack shot as long as I have my glasses on.>:)
    Of course, I prefer the Apple Newton to those Cringe devices.... But I'm sure that won't set me back to much. Probably keep me out of officer training though.>:)

    Kintanon
  • by radja ( 58949 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @04:17AM (#1121444) Homepage
    why not /. readers as JEDI soldiers? simple..

    an officer's diary

    day 1: the new recruits came in, and got handed their hand-helds. So far so good.

    day 2: It seems some of the new recruits installed some software on their hand-helds. it's probably games or something. Most of the new recruits just beat me at quake, so they can't be all bad.

    day 3: The new recruits are really getting into these hand-held things. We had to let off one of the new recruits. he kept whining about our dinners not including grits, and poured his dinner down his pants.

    day 4: wtf did those guys do with their hand-helds? Not a decent window inside, just this silly dos-prompt. when I asked them about it, they started yelling that this was linux, not dos

    day 5: I have no idea what the recruits are on. they keep talking about beautiful-wolf or something.

    day 6: our encryption has been broken. It's been safe for at least 10 years, but the new recruits used their wolf (I havent seen any canine around) to crack it, and they knew the orders before I did.

    .........

    //rdj
  • Not only that, but what about the article regarding the jamming of GPS? Let's make our troops dependent upon easily corruptible information that can, quite possibly, be spoofed and make them shoot at themselves.

    That's kinda funny, the US army beaten by a couple of Uber-geeks from sweden with long hair, tee shirts and an understanding of E&M and computers...

    "I thought IBM was born with the word..." Stereloab
  • Considering that these things run WinCE straight from the Evil Empire, I think they should be called SITH: Soldier's Information and Tactical... um, H-something...
  • You figure the Army could have asked the Navy about Windows' reliability in mission-critical applications...
  • This is not insightful, its just windows bashing. what kind of security do these things need??? they all talk via sat. if you want to get into them you either have to hold them in your hand or be able to crack the sat. system. for the former the soldier better have erased the thing before the bad guys got it. in the later the system would have bigger problems than its OS. as far as intercepting the transmisions, what the hell does that have to do with the OS? they are going to be encrypted in some way and any OS can be coded to be able to read the stream if you know how. plus when these things we being designed, mobile linux/BSD most likely didn't even exist! it was either start from scratch or use CE or Palm. Palm just really isn't very good at this sort of thing plus it didn't do color. and CE was right there ready to go, just write the new drivers and the apps. The palmtops are just dumb clients, they send and receive data and if the enemy gets a hold of one intact, then its only a matter of time, no matter what OS is being used before they can crack it. So come on guys, security????? this has nothing to do with security, they aren't running a web server where anyone can push and pull at it all they want!
  • Not sure about the Newton part, but there was some work done with wearables and HUDs, and the USMC was doing some testing.

    I also recall some work done with Linux by the USMC in testing various computing platforms for possible future deployment. Seems to me there was a Colonel who was in charge of the operation (forgot his name) and he had good things to say about Linux and that they planned to use it for simulation and other things.

    I'm pretty sure that was the USMC, but this was like, four years ago and I could be remembering incorrectly.
  • Yes, yes, we're heard this before.

    Back when I was in, the Army equipped a maneuver brigade with all the latest goo-gags and sent them down to the National Training Center at Ft. Irwin. This was the early to mid 90s.

    They got trounced, but then everyone gets trounced at Ft. Irwin.

    After all the AARs (after action reviews) they discovered that the EXFOR (Expiramental Force) didn't get trounced nearly as bad as the thought, which translated to: they did pretty well.

    However, it was also noted that all that high-tech gear really sucked in the desert - it broke... a lot. Quite often the command structure had to drop the digital equipment and wip out the grease pencils and map overlays and fight the "old fashioned" way.

    In short the Army basically said: (my words) Neat stuff, works OK, has problems though, maybe next time.

  • by mister7 ( 56875 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @04:35AM (#1121499)
    This is my PocketPC. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My PocketPC is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it, as I must master my life. Without me my PocketPC is useless. Without my PocketPC, I am useless. I must boot my PocketPC true. I must hack faster than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must hack him before he hacks me. I will. Before God I swear this creed. My PocetPC and myself are defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviours of my life. So be it .. . until there is no enemy ... but peace. Amen. Good night ladies!
  • Supposedly George was pissed about the so-called Strategic Defense Initiative being nicknamed "Star Wars". I bet he's not real pleased about this, either.
  • and they're left with nothing but 50lbs of useless scrap to lug around... :)
  • by meckardt ( 113120 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:45AM (#1121514) Homepage
    I'll accept the concept of outfitting troops with high tech interfaces suitable for the modern battlefield. But I'm wondering about some things. The enemy (presuming we're fighting a war against a modern army) will have radio detection capabilities. One of the things you didn't do when I was in the army was use your radio for long transmissions, or it might invite artillary fire on your coordinates (even back then! and the detectors are faster now). I hope they have a way to avoid detection of their electronics transmissions.
    Gonzo
  • No light sabers? No Laser Guns?

    Come on, this is another showing of the us government having it's heads up it's collective ass. Don't call it JEDI until it's Jedi damnit. When will they learn?

    Boycotting the US Government until they learn

    SgtPepper

    The preceeding was an attempt at humour, feel free to ignore it
  • by spankenstein ( 35130 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:46AM (#1121520) Homepage

    Yesterday there was an article about the WinCE base PocketPC and everyone kept pointing out how often these crashed, including C|Net

    So today the US military decides that they should use these same WinCE systems for the "wired soldier." Does anyone else smell the impending doom here?

  • by Bitter Cup O Joe ( 146008 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:47AM (#1121529)
    Mmmph. A GPS. A cell phone. WinCE. A JEDI needs not these things.
  • On the flip side, you've got a whole generation of kids trained to play video games - and for some of those games, their reaction speeds are downright frightening - almost Bruce Lee speed (w/o the devastating results though).

    If the combat interface for all that equipment allows soldiers on an instinctive reaction basis, and feeding them all the information they need to make those snap decisions (like video games do), you're going to have some frightening automaton-like killers on your hands...
  • by (void*) ( 113680 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @04:41AM (#1121536)
    Don't you remember what Obi Wan's spirit said to Luke as he was flying down the trench, trying to hit the sweet spot with his targetting computer?

    "Use the force Luke!"

    So Luke switches off the damn thing and blows the Death Star out of existence! Hey! Even a JEDI knows that! Why doesn't the Army?

  • Who comes up with these names? Let's keep Star Wars in the realm of imagination, please...
  • Issue one of this to every soldier, with a fill copy of the bible attached (A old fashioned paper bible, not electronic form built in) Said soldier puts device/bible in front shirt pocket and is proected from bullets going through his heart, and the army doesn't have to serprate the christian soldier (which is protected by the bible) from the geek soldier (who is protected by the electronic device)

  • #1: microsoft product. security holes. chinese hackers. 'nuff said.

    #2: When you're as big an outfit as the US military, you don't need to build a new system from consumer products; you can do it better and cheaper (and hella secreter) if you spec and build it yourself. Do you think the NSA does they're decrypting on a giant beowulf of x86's running NT or TurboLinux somewhere? 0f f**king course not. Even the frogs (i'm part French so can the flames) have enough clue to build a custom system, albeit from high-grade (read Alpha) consumer processors; I'm under the impression that the NSA has custom DES-cracking chips in their crypto supercomputers (I don't have any proof, but if i did i'd prolly be dead in 10 minutes anyways ;)

    #3: The name JEDI is a dead giveaway that something's fishy here. Ever heard of Reagan's "Star Wars" initiative? The project was impossible from the start because in the day, creating the estimated minimum 2 million lines of code, cleanly enough to direct something as precise and dangerous as a satellite anti-missile system, was NOT POSSIBLE. Reagan was informed of this, apparently he didn't care. This falls in the same category, not because the names come from the same fictional work but rather because they are both obviously foolish tasks to anyone who has a working concept of what's involved in making it work.

    So why is the DOD doing this? I have a couple guesses, listed in increasing likeliness IMHO:

    a) It's a big PR stunt. The DOD is trying to impress either US citizens, or scare foreign militaries. Since the latter are probably laughing their asses off right now, I'd say the former is a little more likely. Maybe they are just trying to drum up some semicomputer literates, who are just gung-ho (or dumb) enough to run through a battlefield with $30K in useless equipment (or worse than useless, since it isn't weightless).

    b)Our government wants to see how effective a force a smaller government could field with off the shelf mobile computers. Still unlikely because any smart government (read, any other government) would have enough sense to run OpenBSD at the very least, if not build their own in house solution from *BSD linux scratch whatever. Do you think the Viet Cong would have chosen winCE? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    c) Advanced research. The D0D really thinks winCE is great, and that microsoft can and will provide military-grade security in the first place and support in the second place. The article is true, not misinformation; I find this unlikely but possible. hey, stranger things have happened and even the military may still be lagging the way the FBI did in the 80's when they started trying to catch phreakerz. Unlikely but possible.

    d) Our government actually Doesn't have its head up its ass, they're only outfitting like 2 guys with the lamed out CE vests, but last year they finally perfected their BSD based vests, and now they need a cover story. As a bonus, enemy crackerz will think they are hacking a lame win system, and if they are just script kidz they won't get past the decoy defenses. Meanwhile the BSD JEDI ('s?) will already have kicked Saddam's sorry ass for the 90th time.

    e) Bill Gates is fronting the entire operation, hardware, software, even hired ex-US military mercernaries, just to showcase winCE. The troops will never see combat, and assignment to the JEDI corps will replace KP and using your toothbrush to make those latrines shine like a drill seargents' boots. Honestly possible, however silly it may seem; Bill has tons of money that may not be worth anything soon (ms stock) so why not spend it on silly things that might make some slight difference?

    I honestly don't know which is more likely d) or e), but this is /. so the order was inevitable. However dumb the military may be, their purpose remains to fight and die to protect the sovereignty (sp?) of the US and it's colonies err i mean strategic third world partners. I really don't think that this is for real because when it comes down to it, they don't enjoy throwing american lives away frivolously. Obvious PR/coverup or both. thank you drive through.

    "A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire

  • That our proposal for a Linux/Slash-based system was turned down by the Pentagon. We called it the General Reference Information & Tactical System. I guess JEDI sounded better.
  • by Spud Zeppelin ( 13403 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:49AM (#1121552)
    Lucasfilm, Ltd. vs. US Department of Defense...

    See the landmark trademark dilution suit that has Washington on its heels!

    See a team of Lucasfilm lawyers impersonate Wookies!

    See a President beholden to Hollywood interests utter "Let the Wookie win!"

    A long time ago on a West Portico far away... a B-movie actor escaped the evil clutches of Hollywood and became President of the Galactic Republic, or a reasonable facsimile thereof. Ever since that time, the Department of Defense has been obsessed with stealing Lucasfilm's trademarks, from "Star Wars" to "Jedi". So, hiding in their outpost off the sixth exit of the Marin system, a team of Lucasfilm lawyers are preparing a counterattack....



    This is my opinion and my opinion only. Incidentally, IANAL.
  • by FascDot Killed My Pr ( 24021 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:50AM (#1121554)
    The military is a machine. Soldiers are the "commodity components". Giving soldiers expensive, breakage-prone, training-intensive, high-tech gear is going to have on of two effects:

    1) Raise the cost of running the military without substantially raising it's effectiveness. Think of the people you knew in high school who were joining the Army because they didn't know what else to do. Now give that person a palmtop, a GPS and a 24 hours to find their ass. Come pick up any pieces that remain tomorrow.

    2) Give the military a false sense of unbeatability: "Gentlemen, we are the best-equipped fighting force in the world." Yeah, until 3 guys with AK-47s in Jeeps come knock down your satellite transceivers. When your GPS-dependent droids don't know which way is north, it's unlikely they'll come running to your aid.

    It has been proven over and over again (from the Goths to the American Revolution to Vietnam) that distributed, guerilla-style fighting is less fragile (and thus usually more successful) than centralized, top-down fighting. This money could be better spent teaching soldiers how to navigate via astronomy (with a homemade sextant) and some memory-enhancement and "fast math" skills (to replace the palmtop).
    --
  • Perhaps the government should look into purchasing Iridium and using it to both transfer military use transmissions and earn some money back by selling services to phone companies around the world. For once the military might could pay for its own satellites.


    Bad Mojo
  • .... I had, as an infantryman, exactly one job: wait around until told to go somewhere and kill the enemy. I had one tool: Uncle Sam gave me an M16A2, for use the said job (sure, I had others, but that was what my main tool was).

    Lets not forget, I believe it was Heinlen, who basically said "The more gadgets you load a grunt down with, the easier it is for someone to walk up and bash his head in with a rock". See above; my life as an infantryman was simple and uncomplicated. I can bet you I was much more effective than anyone trying to locate map points w/ a PDA and calling for help on a cell phone. We relied on maps, and each other. Primitive, huh.

    Given, also, that my main tool - my weapon - was fragile and sensitive to even the most minor of abuses that occur in the field, do they really think something like a PDA and a CELL PHONE are going to survive a grunt's life?
  • by kwsNI ( 133721 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:52AM (#1121561) Homepage
    On a WinCE device? Have you seen the color's on a handheld? It could be the purple screen of death (PSOD sounds cool) or the maroon screen of death.

    It would be much better if they were running Linux. I think they should make their own distro and call it LiPalm (as in: "I love the smell of LiPalm in the morning")

    kwsNI

  • by bmabray ( 84486 ) on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:53AM (#1121563) Homepage Journal
    It runs Microsoft Windows CE software using a 233 MHz Pentium II processor, packs 32 MB of RAM, and has a touch-active screen.
    So, after our next war, you will see statistics about soldiers who were:
    MIA
    KIA
    POW
    GPF
  • That's because you didn't include the Field Unit Display or F.U.D.
  • Let's just hope the Pentagon is not as stupid as the Trade Federation. Otherwise they'll put all their battlefield CCC&I on one satellite like those idiots... and watch a whole battalion of "JEDI" stumble around blindly (well, at least they aren't droids, yet) when it goes down....
    #include "disclaim.h"
    "All the best people in life seem to like LINUX." - Steve Wozniak
  • by banky ( 9941 ) <gregg AT neurobashing DOT com> on Thursday April 20, 2000 @03:55AM (#1121576) Homepage Journal
    You hit the nail on the head. Electronic devices produce heat; modern armies have thermal detectors for spotting people. So thats one strike.

    You mentioned electronic emissions; another strike. Apparently now the average grunt (ok, ok, not the average grunt, but still) can be picked up with HFDF and have a couple 105's dropped on his head.

    Its frightening and makes me glad I'm out. They gave me a rifle and told me to go kill bad guys. Thats as complicated as it got.
  • Soldier1: That's it.. Jim's dead. Never had a chance.

    Soldier2: What happened? What was the cause of death?

    Soldier1: Blue Screen.

"Conversion, fastidious Goddess, loves blood better than brick, and feasts most subtly on the human will." -- Virginia Woolf, "Mrs. Dalloway"

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