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KDE GUI

KDE 2.0 Beta 2 "Kleopatra" Now Available 156

Posted by CmdrTaco from the excellent-smithers dept.
kdgarris writes: "The KDE team has released the second beta for the KDE 2.0 desktop environment. Check out the announcement here." The new-and-improved list is pretty lengthy and very impressive. Worth a look see.
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

KDE 2.0 Beta 2 "Kleopatra" Now Available More

KDE 2.0 Beta 2 "Kleopatra" Now Available

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  • It's getting nice (Score:4)

    by abroc ( 200669 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:18AM (#1000680)
    I don't have Kleopatra (yet) but I run the 06082000 build and it just keeps getting better. A lot of more evident bugs that were in Konfucious are gone now and the whole lot is really coming together. My only concern is the state of Konqueror which still seems too flakey for any real browsing, still looks more of a proof of concept thing. Koffice is usable now as is and I can recommend Kword to anyone frustrated with the hopeless UI of MS Word. I never used FrameMaker but this frame concept has much more appeal to me than the blooming MS Word templates that never work properly for anything beyond a two page letter.

    I have a big beef with KDE though. No not the licensing silly! It's the fact that they ditched Corba as their component architecture. Why? It's not slow at all if you use in-process servers it's elegant in most languages and wiht the addition of POA it's extremely flexible. The argument that CORBA is to difficult to master for Joe sixpack developer doesn't hold anymore since the Henning Vinoski book's out. My biggest concern is that with OMG adopting the Corba Component Model all DCOPs and Bonobos will effectively become proprietary solutions. CCM will provide good intergration with JavaBeans which I'm sure all Java affectionados will appreciate too. Why oh why did they have to rid of CORBA?!

  • So, just go ahead and do your thing. No one
    forces you to K, do khey?
  • I've got this from a weird German BSD book: KDE started off as the "Cool Desktop Environment", but CDE [wmich.edu] was already a short for the Common Desktop Environment, included with Solaris. In the tradition of weird Unix names (GNU = "Gnu is Not Unix", PINE = "Pine Is Not Elm") they decided in favor of the name "K Desktop Environment".
  • That is stupid. Derived works are the WHOLE POINT OF A LIBRARY THAT YOU CHARGE FOR. Since nobody uses a widget set simply for the hell of it, derrived works is the only way for Troll Tech to make money. As of now, if you want to use Qt for a professional app, you have to pay. Troll tech can't do that if Qt is GPL'd. Also, even in that case, wouldn't LGPL be more appropriate? GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL Qt apps would have to be GPL'd. The whole concept is stupid. You're saying that if GPL'd code uses other code, that code atuomatically becomes GPL? Does that mean any BSD code put into Linux automatically becomes GPL? Why not just have a GPLizer program, that automatically incorporates code into GPL'd programs, thus GPL'ing the code!
  • > KDE Drag and drop --> X Drag and Drop

    Just a nitpick, X has no DnD implementation. XDND has nothing to do with X itself, i.e. it is not an X extension or anything, it just has a name that sounds like it. XDND is however, used by both gnome and KDE, and if they agree on the type encodings, they should interoperate almost seamlessly (except the drop target probably won't know how to tell the drag "server" that it received the object)
  • That's bullshit. Why was this moderated up? GNOME and KDE don't help windows users move. In fact, up till recently, GNOME used E as the WM. What GNOME and KDE do, is provide a set of services to graphical applications using the GTK+ and Qt widget sets (respectivaly). (Stuff that should be in the OS proper, but that's a different matter :) Hell, you can use TWM and get as advanced as you want, but without stuff like KDE, no DCOP for you! Also, I get the hint that you think that stuff like integration, and consistancy are for newbies. Not true. They are for smart people who want to get work done without having to spend time learning a new interface.
  • Maybe you would prefer that all the apps started with the letters MS?
  • Naw, GNOME is mostly fat, no meat whatsoever :) Look, I'm not a Linux newbie, but I simply like KDE better. I'm a speed freak, and KDE tends to be faster and take less memory. Also, I refuse to use a DE that has been tarnished by the bloated piece of shit that is CORBA.
  • I know this is a troll, but just so nobody gets misinformation. KParts is a lot more like COM than Bonobo. Bonobo is based on CORBA, which is quite different from COM. Back during the object model wars of '94 (its true, you guys think object models are new, but Linux is hideously late to this game) there were two competitors, SOM and COM. SOM was CORBA complient and support inheritance, while COM was a very different MS design, and supported aggregation. I prefer COM, because it is more light weight. CORBA, however is not. Don't you dare mention CORBA and COM in the same sentance 'kay?
  • actually I would lean entirely in the other direction from your statement. I've always hated "cute" names like "WinAmp" that tell me very little about what programs do.

    I would submit, that your dislike of "arbitrary acronyms" is more of a personal preference. Acronyms are never arbitrary, and in a command line environment, knowing that the command the function are actually related is sort of nice.

    Case in point: I never liked "workman" .. it was a functional cd player, but it's alot easier to remember "xmms" because it MEANS something.

    In the end, It's just personal preference....and yours and mine obviously differ. Oh well. Not a big deal either way I guess.

  • This is so Kick ass. I'm a little angry that people don't give Konqueror more credit. It is truly one of KDE's crown jewels. Imagine the past: Here I am with my beautiful, reasonably fast Linux desktop, but right in the middle is the slow and bloated web browser from Motif hell. I've gotten so used to fast, light, nice looking browsers (IE on Windows, Netposetive on BeOS) that using Netscape positivly pained me.
  • You can create a desktop folder and drag that onto the panel to have it create a new menu for it. Then create desktop application icons in the folder and away ya go.
  • Yeah, I use grdb, but it only gives you that much of the GNOME looks (colors and fonts). The widgets still does not look as the ones I have set up in GNOME.

    But I guess that's life...

  • Re:Gnome + KDE = ?? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well, you can already add Kde apps to the Gnome menus (helix has a script that does this automatically - duplicates the kde menu structure) and you can add Gnome apps to Kde menus and the panel.

    But the theme engines and several other look and feel modifiers are very different, so I don't see how it's possible apply one to the other without writing a translation program yourself that goes far beyond a script. You can already, to a limited degree, apply Kde colors and some other look and feel paramaters to ALL apps on a Kde desktop, even older motif based apps, but this is not quite the same thing as "themes".

    You might like the Kde 2.0 look and feel much better than the older one. The rendering engine is much better for things like smooth gradations and fine details, and the default widgets are very nice - you can customize them as well as the taskbar look and feel for each app a lot.

    Personally I like the new Kde-Qt layouts - the proportions and weights of things visually, much better than Gnome-Gtk which has a topheavy look with far too much padding and wasted space. Even with a very large screen Gnome-Gtk doesn't look well proportioned, but you need a very large screen resolution for it all to fit in. Kde works ok with just a 640x480 resolution and works great with 800x600 or better.

    Please note that at this point the Gnome panel is much more complete, though. The Kde panel, "Kicker" is under heavy development right now. It should be feature complete by the next release in July, so that you can more easily add apps, applets, drawers and launchers, etc. Right now it is very basic and I don't suggest trying to customize it very much at this time.

    You can already run Gnome apps and Kde apps together with almost any window manager and use similar themes if you want to. In such cases the overall look and feel depends much more on the window manager than on Gnome or Kde.

  • Q: At what point does all this 'K' naming staff stop being cute? A: when it's no longer cute but 'Kute'.

  • Re:Library upgrades (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    There are really only two Qt versions that you need to run the full gamut of Qt and Kde apps - a 1.4x version like 1.44 and the current 2.1 release. That's it.

    It is also fairly easy to run Kde 2 and Qt 2 apps from a Kde 1 desktop from any xterm like rxvt. There are instructions on how to do this at the Kde site. The libs have different names so they can be run simultaneous, so long as the local environment is set for the app using the library which is different from what the desktop is using overall. A good use of this trick is to run KOffice applications from Kde1, or to try the new browser, Konqueror.

    If you are already using kde 1.2, you will be able to install Kde 2.0 final (in September) right over it keeping the same desktop settings as you are used to. What needs to be translated will be translated to the new format.

  • Re:Library upgrades (Score:3)

    by jbarnett ( 127033 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:21AM (#1000696) Homepage

    Welcome to the Bleeding Edge of Software Development! New Feartures in "Bleeding Edge App4 V2.20.0.1"

    Breaks all existing programs.
    Breaks all existing configuration files.
    Get to spend quality time (ie: tech support) with users.
    Corrupts old data files.
    Need to compile 16 megs of *NEW* libaries to work..

    Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)

    Or just wait till you upgrade you distro in 2-12 months, it should have the lastest and greatest KDE version precompiled for ya. If you don't feel like compiling hunderards of megs of sources, don't, wait till you need or want a really cool fearture, then do it then.
  • Some egyptian bitch innit?

  • What's all the whinging for? (Score:4)

    by trellick ( 67244 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:23AM (#1000698)
    Grow up. Stop all this 'Gnome is waay better that KDE doode' and vice-versa crap.

    That's the point of open-source you get a CHOICE, you try it, you like it, you use it. You don't like it, then you don't use it. [and it doesn't cost the earth!]

    And for those people who carp out about "well I don't need that I'm better of with a chisel, a rock, my vt100 terminal and a 1200/75 modem!", well fine!.....

    BUT do you really thing the legions of windoze users are going to be tempted to move across to something that doesn't look purty and do what they could do??

    Half of them spontaneously combust at the sight of a command line! [Trust me on this one ;) ]

    Personally, I take me hat off to both the KDE/GNOME boys and girls and thank them profusely for BOTH doing something different and moving their products [and Linux] onto the desktop of more and more users.

    Roll on September and KDE 2.0 final!

  • Hey! Pine officially stands for Program for Internet News and Email! :) (But we all know what it really stands for.)

  • But can it be set up to do it the "old" way? This is one of those interface questions that has no definitive answer. Some people will want it one way, some will want it the other. And some will go "where the hell has my app gone? I only switched desktops, and its task bar icon vanished!".

    Thad

  • Looking Forward to Konq (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The marketspeak about Konqueror is playing some mighty big name games these days: HTML 4.0, CSS2... These two standards alone have the capability to revolutionize the web.

    Client-side HTML includes using <OBJECT> support? CSS2 positioning (absolute/relative/fixed)? If support for these is anywhere near usable, this web browser might be the FIRST leap to the semantic web which structured document writers have pined after for years, even beating Mozilla to the punch. (Mozilla's support for modular HTML using <OBJECT>, CSS2's "before:" or "after:" pseudoclass embedding, or XLink inclusion are still either nonexistant or relegated to the farthest corners of Mozilla, earmarked for Milestone 127 at best.)

    Does anyone have any information about standards-compliance in this browser? Do the pretty toys like CSS2's "shadow" property work? Proper PNG translucency? How about XML namespace selection within CSS2 stylesheets?

    Somebody with experience, please let us know. I'm looking to KDE to lead the way!

  • Re:It's getting nice (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:25AM (#1000702)
    Here's a quote from David Faure concerning this:

    -- snip ---
    I think www.kde.org/technology.html (mosfet's) speaks quite well about this.
    If not, my take on it is:

    - stability (that's the main one. If you used pre-canossa KOffice, you know what a real stability problem with embedding is).
    - wrong approach - starting servers for embedded components, leads to servers left running after you exit the main app (ok, that's a bug, but it shows wrong design IMHO. What should be one application was a set of distributed ones, hence this kind of problems).
    - memory usage and slow performances - but people associate this with MICO more than with CORBA in general. Well, we'll never really know, but in any case we had to do something about this.
    - the interoperability we were supposed to benefit from it was null. gnome uses an orbit-specific authentication mechanism which made interoperability as difficult as it is now, and nobody ever had any interest in making the CORBA things in gnome and KDE work together anyway.

    In short, I always say: we had all the disadvantages of distributed computing (stability, reliability, performance issues) for something that is not distributed, in 99% of the cases - a desktop is local, most of the time.

    But it was fun, writing sources that nobody could read afterwards :/. CORBA programming is like perl. Write once, read never ;-)

    --- snip ---

    you might also want to read this one:

    http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=957230639 31394&w=2

    Recycling comments is such a joy .. oh well ..
  • KDE is shaping up to be quite cool, and blessdly, you no longer have to run GNOME (which is quite a bit slower than KDE) to have a sweet looking desktop. KDE2's imaging and use of high color icons is really nice. However, it is still badly designed, as are all Linux DEs. To put it bluntly, KDE and GNOME simply are not compatible. If you want to run apps from both, (which is necessary if, like me, you like running GNOME but developed in KDevelop) then you have to have both installed. This gets worse, because during the KDE1/KDE2, GNOME1/GNOME2, you'll have to have all four installed to maintain decent compatibility. With just KDE and GNOME loaded, I get 40Meg resident memory use (according to KTop) on my 128 meg system. This is simply unacceptable. Even NT doesn't use that much memory from standstill (more like 30 megs or so) not to mention BeOS (some obscenely small number. Actually, BeOS is the only system that doesn't feel noticable faster in most apps after the upgrade from 64MB to 128MB.) Of course, I'm all for freedom of choice. Can you have your cake and eat it too? Of course! What about a DE that supplied low level stuff, like printing, object model, communication, API, stuff like that, and have a window manager take care of interface aspects and widget sets. This idea takes advantage of the fact that (from the big picture) all GUI software does the same things, and all widget sets provide the same services. So applications are written to the standard API, and whatever WM is loaded, interprets these requests. This would lead to even more customizability for the user (not the programmer, but who cares about he programmer?) All widgets are asked for the same services. So you could have a WM that implments the most efficiant GUI possible, while another one that implements a Windows-like GUI. In both cases, you'd have color dialoges that return an RGB value, so who cares how the dialogue acts. It could implment a standard color wheel, or it could ask the user for an RGB value, or it could randomly pick a number, the interface is the same. Not only would this desktop be more customizable, it would be faster, more stable, and less bloated, because it would have less code than two DEs and more people could be used hacking the core code. I mean you guys are all C programmers right? Ever heard of interface seperate from implementation? The idea at work here folks. Do you care about Bonobo and KParts? Sure. Do you have some insane attachment to one over the other? If so, get help.
  • No, not better than any distributed system. DCOM probably has lower performance over a network, but locally, it uses COM, and has a great deal more performance. So what happens is, that local performance performs like it should, at a slight expense at network performance and flexibility. I think this is a better trade off for something being integrated into a desktop environment, because the vast majority of apps will run locally. X had this same problem. It had great network performance, but crappy local performance. Fortunately the fixed most of it in 4.0, but there is no reason to start the problem again with a object model. MICO may be rock solid, and not that bad, but only in network mode. In local mode, MICO, and CORBA in general blows.

  • Re:Gnome + KDE = ?? (Score:3)

    by JamesKPolk ( 13313 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @05:35AM (#1000705) Homepage
    Compatibility is a nifty thing to have.

    That's why with KDE 2, KDE has dropped a bunch of KDE-specific things in favor of more general standards:

    KDE Drag and drop --> X Drag and Drop
    KDE Window manager hints --> NET WM-SPEC
    KDE Session Management --> X Session Management

    These three things can allow for many apps to work with KDE, and vice-versa, without even requiring the use of KDE libraries.

    As far as GNOME-KDE compatibility, the .kdelnk files have been replaced with a .desktop file standard, being used by GNOME and KDE now.
  • Wouldn't it be nice if this stuff were enapsulated through something like COM? DirectX has 7 very different versions, yet I only have one library, because incompatiblilites can be addressed at a very granular level. (IE. If only a few functions are different, but renders the entire library incompatible, through COM, you can reimplment only those functions in a new interface, and transparently call the old ones.)
  • You just don't like me, do you? :-)

    I've used TWM with GNOME, and believe me, you cannnot get "as advanced as you want". GMC doesn't take kindly to being used with TWM, which does things like put title bars on every single icon. You have to use a GNOME-compliant WM or else things won't work so well. GNOME will give you warning messages and stuff, and it'll act wierd.

    And those widgets should not be in the "OS proper," by which I take it you mean the kernel (You couldn't possibly mean a distro, because they are already in those). The expandibility of Linux through shared libraries the user can choose not to install is one of its advantages over Windows. If you plan to only use Win32 applications, you can't choose not to install the Win16 stuff.

    I don't think that integration is for newbies, I just think that GNOME imitates Windows too closely (though it's not nearly as bad as KDE.)

    Integration is fine, just give me options along with it. When ever I use GNOME, I am frustrated by all of the little things it does, the clumsy applets, etc (that's a personal opinion about how the applets work, not a comment about any of their technial attributes. But E's pager has the GNOME one beat.) As for consitency, it's fine. I like to have a consistent interface for apps. I the one used by GTK apps is actually pretty good, even though a few elements of it are frustrating.

    E was never used as the WM for GNOME. GNOME let you pick a WM; E was the default. But E confused too many GNOME users because of the duplicated functionality (E's menus for instance, which I like, and GNOME's task bar, which I don't like)

    You can get work done in GNOME. But my personal preference is to not get work done in GNOME, because when I try, I get frustrated by it.

    Most of this applies to KDE: I don't like the browser and I don't like KDE's task bar. Yes, these things are very customizable, they're just not customizable to become what I want.

    E does provide KDE hint support (which I have turned off) and GNOME hint support (which you can't turn off and I wouldn't if I could.)

    The truth is, the UIs of KDE and GNOME were designed to mimick Windows. Read the websites. They were created to provide standard GUIs for Unix, and their interfaces were designed so people used to Windows would be comfortable with them. (CDE also mimicks Windows, remember? It was designed so that Unix and Motif could catch up to Win3.x)

    I don't like having to learn a new interface any more than you do. The first time I used the GIMP I was totally lost (I had never used Photoshop or anything). But I also don't like the UI choices the GNOME and KDE teams made, and I don't like the UIs. They are simply too different to be customized into the type of UI I want. I don't like them. But that doesn't change the fact that they were designed to act like Windows. My opinion didn't create that fact. I'm sorry if you think it did.

  • Has anyone had any luck in updating Corel Linux with KDE 2.0?

  • The Wait (Score:2)

    by JBv ( 25001 )
    Is the most difficult part of using and enjoying linux/GNU software.

    All these alphas, betas, snapshots, etc make the stable versions of software look increasingly more like stale versions than anything else.

    You know it doesn't work properly, you know it will crash, you know some features are missing, you know you will need to refurbish half your system to sort dependencies... You know all that and still you use it and can't wait for the next unstable/beta whatever to come out and see what has changed.

    It's life on the fast lane... Well, sort of anyway ;D

    Well done KDE team! (Must... resist... download...)

  • Blasphemy! You're not a real hacker are you? I like running the latest and the greatest (especially in the case of KDE 2, where it is faster than 1.x). To tell the truth, I am guilty of living VERY bleeding edge. I'm running Mandrake 7.1, kernel 2.4-test, XFree86 4.0, nVidia BetaGL, and I'm dabbling with KDE 2-beta1.

  • I have noticed this *cough** [microsoft.com]*cough*. Any programs we use in a "critical envoirment" (buzzword number 1021) I ussually try to test first on a older less productive machine to make sure that most of the "pitfalls" can be avoided...
  • Go Gfuck Gof, Gnome Gdoes Git Gto.
  • Have you noticed that these standard desktops for X look a lot like Windows? KDE was designed to provide a free version of CDE (they must have gotten lost along the way), and CDE was designed so that Unix with Motif could catch up to Win3.1. This standard desktop idea is not new. I didn't intend to insult GNOME or KDE (I said that GNOME was fine. I just don't like it.)

    The goals of these two projects are very similar goals: (I'm quoting now) "fill the need for an easy to use desktop for Unix workstations, similar to the desktop environments found under the MacOS or Window95/NT."

    Other people have said that I'm against consitancy; I'm not. I just don't want the consistency that these two offer. The GTK-type interfaces used by GNOME are something I like, but they're probably the only part of GNOME's interface that I really like using. All I meant was that these projects are trying to provide standarized desktops, and one of their goals is to look like Windows to help users switch. That's one of their main goals, actually: user friendlyness, especially for users new to Linux. Look at some of the stuff RMS has written about GNOME.

  • Fool. Either way, it means nothing if you aren't familiar with the program. Take xfm. X Friggin' Media? X Floppy Mangler? Xenophobic fruity man? Or pam, Pretty Anoying mercenary, probably angry mutent, possibly attacking molars? Or how about xmms. Xtremely mobile mutent snails? Xtremely mad magic sicophants? The point is that xfm means just as little as Konqueror, but Konqueror sounds nicer.
  • Those of you who love KDE and GNOME: this comment wasn't meant to deride them or their users. But the fact is, when these two projects set out to build a standard GUI, they decided to imitate Windows. That's a big part of it. GNOME is great, like I said, I use it. I just don't happen to like the task bar, and gmc is sort of borderline in my opinion.

    My ideal X setup, the one I use most often, is E 1600x1200x32 with a modified Brushed Metal theme. (It looks less Windowish). I can use the apps I like without the task bar that I don't like. I actually like the GNOME consistent interface overall (a few frustrating things, but every UI has those), whatever this comment may have lead you to believe.

    So before you get the wrong idea, remember that I was trying to answer a question, not argue against GNOME and KDE. Sorry if it looked like I was coming out against a standardized desktop; all I'm saying is that they do serve a purpose (remember that this guy wanted that purpose explained) they do provide a standardized UI (like most of GNOME's app's UI, don't care for KDE's), and they do act like Windows.


  • Hey, I have a questions. Say you have 4 virutal desktops in KDE and run an xterm in each virutal terminal right? All xterms show up down on the task bar, is there a way to "isolate" what you see, depending on which virutal desktop you are in for the momemet?

    Say you run Netscape in vd 2 and xterm in vd 3. The task bar will show both Netscape and xterm. Is there a way to say, when you switch to vd 2 it only shows Netscape in the task bar, and when you switch to vd 3 it only shows xterm in the task bar?

    That is the only thing I can't stand about KDE, everything else though is the flavors.

    KDE is sweet, they did (and are still doing) a hell of a job.
  • I run KDE 1.90 binaries dated 5-5-2000 (even before Beta 1). The idea is that you install both QT 1.44 for the old KDE1 stuff and QT 2 for KDE2. You can best set up KDE2 as a new window manager if you're using [xgk]dm. On my P2-233, only starting up is a bit slower. After that, I find KDE2 a bit faster than KDE1. Not at all a "memory hog" and it doesn't crash either - except when I run Konqueror, which is still heavily beta. The beta versions of KOffice and KDevelop are great, though. I can't wait for the release!
  • Does anyone know where I could find redhat binaries packaged up? B

  • Re:serious question... (Score:3)

    by sandler ( 9145 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:28AM (#1000719) Homepage
    True. I never much liked linux naming conventions, which tended to favor arbitrary sounding acronyms over attractive names. For example, WinAmp vs. xmms, or Windows Explorer vs. kfm. I'm glad to see KDE at least moving towards names like Konqueror rather than kwb or some such. Plus, with competing widget sets, it's convenient to know right off the bat which goes with what.
  • Well, there is a XFree/CygWin port in progress, so you might very well be able to do that soon.
  • You should wait for at least the next release, next month.

    Here is the url with the full details

    http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-devel&m=96022787902749 &w=2 [kde.org]

  • the above post to all stories about software releases, when there is a religious war involved?

    seriously. All you would have to do is substitute GNOME/KDE for the titles of the other projects, and you are set! The rest can stay the same!

    (Guess you'd have to remove the last line)
  • There is no official standar yet. Submissions are still being accepted. But I think it will come together very quickly. You may read this [omg.org] for a starter.
  • Last time I tried KWord, there was no obvious way of putting equations in the text. It was possible, though barely, to put an 'equation frame' in, but it could not automatically scale with the size of the equation and nor could it move with the text. I gave up after that.
    John
  • No need, just --force installation.
    The beta packages go to /opt/kde2, the only "conflicting" files are config stuff.
  • Sure - it's running on Red Hat Linux after all. ;)
    Oh, and besides the line is so bad that even all the traffic it can stand won't kill the server. ;)
  • I never have quite understood exactly what the whole point to KDE and GNOME is to begin with.

    Personally, I use Enlightenment as my Window Manager, and applications to get my work done.

    Where do GNOME and KDE fit into this?

    Not trying to flame here, but I run Linux exclusively on both my home workstations and my work workstation, (as well as my servers) and I get everything done just fine without either of these "entities" (What are they? programs? environments?)

    Take a look at my screenshots at http://www.cyberdeck.org/screenshots [cyberdeck.org] and you will see that I seem to be able to get by just nicely without GNOME or KDE... What am I missing out on?

    -CZ
  • Graceful solution, yes.
    Implementation (wait till the end).

    What is needed is a pseudo-root user. A user who internally looks like root, but can only access files in a restricted part of the disk (say within a particular tree of folders [and no symLinks outside it!]. If dynamic partitioning becomes feasible, then I suppose that you could set them up in a separated partition, but ideally this wouldn't be needed.)

    Then any software to be tested could be installed by pRoot, and wouldn't know that it wasn't seeing everything. This would require sufficient spare disk space to have copies of the kernel, drivers, necessary & useful utilities, etc., but would allow one to install and test software in reasonably complete security.

    A Solution! The only way that occurs to me to do this is via VMWare. I believe that VMWare currently comes with SuSE installed in a disk image. You can install something else, say Windows, if you want. But you could also install your favorite version of Linux there, and then do any tests that you wanted. This isn't free, and the screen mapping is a nuisance (colors are really strange if you don't let VMWare have control of the entire screen). But it should work!

    This is a bit less graceful than ideal, but it should be plenty good to test things out.
  • Now you did read the link this article is about didn't you :) In that case you don't need me to tell you that binaries are available on the kde ftp site (and mirrors), and that more specifically the redhat binary rpms are at ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/unstable/distribution/2. 0Beta2/rpm/RedHat-6.2/
  • KDE is being devloped in Deutchland where Kleopatra is spelled w/ a 'K' as are most of the things that in English start w/ a 'hard C'...
  • It define a model to create server-side components. It is closely related to the Enterprise JavaBean component model. It add multi-language support and other stuff to the EJB model.
    Yes, so what it's doing is the equivalent of MTS in the Windows world - providing a container for shareable components which expose interfaces.
    There's nothing to stop someone from creating another layer to sit on top of this in the way that ActiveX components have visual stuff on top of COM layers. So, yeah, I agree with your last line...However it could be used for the underlying processing a visual component need and something else would be responsible for the actuel rendering.
    Bottom line is that Gnome or KDE, it's all coming together very nicely for Unix in general and Linux in particular.


    -------------------------------------------------- --------
  • I don't think I implied that it was some sort of X extension...

    That's just the name. XDND. I spelled out Drag and Drop, for those who don't instantly think Drag and Drop when they see DND. :-)

  • Have you ever heard of a thing known as "kernel" and that is needed by Lilo, Grub, Loadlin or whatever to boot a computer ? Btw, do you know what Linux [kernel.org] really is ? A kernel. Just a kernel. What we call Linux is in fact the Linux kernel, plus the GNU [gnu.org] tools, plus everything that you you want and can run on it, like KDE [kde.org] for example.

    A word of advice: if you have enough room on your harddrive, let KDE and GNOME together. They can cohabit peacefully, and this way, if you want to use a KApplication under GNOME, or vice-versa, you can, because you have all required library.
    Better to have something we don't need than to need something we don't have.

  • > derrived works is the only way for Troll Tech to make money

    Commercial licenses for closed source software (which uses the library) are how Troll Tech makes money. Not from derivations of the library.

    > As of now, if you want to use Qt for a rofessional app, you have to pay. Troll tech can't do that if Qt is GPL'd.

    Wrong. A GPL'd library would cover all GPL'd uses. You'd still have to pay for an exception to the GPL (like Reserfs, as I mentioned) if you wanted to develop a proprietary, closed source application and distribute it to someone else (internal apps could probably get away without paying).

    > Also, even in that case, wouldn't LGPL be more appropriate?

    That would cause the very problem you were just arguing against! That *would* allow commercial proprietary software to be built on Qt without paying the Trolls.

    > GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL
    Qt apps would have to be GPL'd.

    OK, I'll grant that. Simple solution: Make Qt Free Edition dual licensed by the GPL *and* QPL. That would keep the BSD *and* GPL folks happy. And still charge for the commercial version. What more could you want?

    > Why not just have a GPLizer program, that automatically incorporates code into GPL'd programs, thus GPL'ing the code!

    Heh, not a bad idea. The GPL is, after all, the only good software license. :-)
  • you're on the right track, but what I'm doing is slashdot-name-squatting till the reak karmageddon comes along and has to buy it from me.

  • Red Hat Linux packages available (Score:3)

    by bero-rh ( 98815 ) <bero.redhat@com> on Thursday June 15, 2000 @06:27AM (#1000736) Homepage
    Red Hat Linux (tested on 6.2) packages for beta 2
    for x86, alpha and sparc are now available at http://www.bero.org/kde/ [bero.org].

  • Can't you use <a href="http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/cs s/test/results">some usable links</a> like this one [harvard.edu] ?
    It would be better.

  • First, I always upgrade KDE in the hopes that the new version will suck less than the current one. On occasion , that's been the case. Second, I already have some apps, like licq, waiting for the new Qt to be upgraded so I can install a recent (and more functional) version. So when a stable KDE comes out for the new Qt, I'll upgrade.
  • Anyone got a good cross desktop development library? One that uses the native widget set. One that looks good. One that works.

    Desktop inegration GOOD. Desktop dependance BAD. Me want solution.

    Thad

  • Re:Corel Linux (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You have to dpkg --purge the following packages before adding KDE2 to your system:
    • kde-corel
    • qt-corel
    Then install the version of Qt that KDE2 uses (Qt 2.1.1)
  • I don't really like having many different versions of libraries (Qt 1.4, 1.41, 2.0, 2.1-beta, 2.1-thursday, etc.) on my machine, plus, RPM makes this quite difficult even if I wanted to.

    Well that's your choice, but that doesn't mean the system is broken. You can have multiple versions of libraries on your system for the very reason you mentioned, so you don't break old apps.

    RPM lets you have multiple versions of libraries on your system, although it does not allow multiple *devel* RPMS for the most part. If you want to upgrade, just rpm -e the old devel headers and the apps that are being upgraded (leaving the libraries that old apps you're keeping depend on), and then rpm --install <new libraries> [that's install, not -U or --upgrade] and all should be fine.

    :wq!

  • Well, IMHO, the most irritating "feature" of the GNOME Vs. KDE war is that they aren't very well at working together. Personally, I run GNOME. I want any Qt/KDE apps I like to use (there are a few), to look like my GNOME apps, but I can't do that. A pity.

    (But then again, I can't get the Motif or Xt or whatever programs to look like my GNOME programs either, so...)

  • It's all this Linuxification on the net and in the press that makes all newbies ask questions about "linuxprograms" like bash and emacs and kde in linux-newsgroups, when they could get better help in more general unix-newsgroups.
    It also makes BSD-newbies miss a lot of help since they probably skip a lot of linux talk when searching for information.
    When will companies, press (and sometimes /.) remove the keyword "linux" when it has nothing to do with it?

  • Why they had to get rid of CORBA (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Read the devel lists. They had stability and speed problems with CORBA. KDE took an age to compile and was far larger. 'Standards' are not an excuse for code bloat and complications.
  • Those people who have had their GPLd code used in KDE have already been notified. None of them have yet protested. But even this is a non-issue. The GPL operates under copyright law, and not contract law. It cannot take away legal rights that the user already possesses. And since copyright law is completely silent on references, dynamic linkage to and from the GPL is permitted.

    Maybe GPLv3 will remove that clause about copyright law and it will become a contract like the EULA, but for now it's legal to reference non-GPLd libraries and incorporate their interfaces in the binary.

    "...the ONLY real solution to this mess is for the Trolls to release Qt under the GPL

    Yes, it would solve the problem, but it is not the Trolls problem. You don't demand that a third party correct the actions of a first party. They weren't the ones writing or using GPLd code.
  • The QPL is perfectly sensible for making modifications. It only makes forking difficult.

    I mean, come on! You would actually submit a Qt bug fix as a 2Meg tarball of the complete sources instead of a 100Byte patch? I bet the gtk people just love your submissions :-)
  • You know, that post you're responding to just MIGHT have been humor... apparently four moderators thought that way, at least.
    --
    No more e-mail address game - see my user info. Time for revenge.

  • I know what it makes me think of -- and I wonder whether the krazy [krazy.com] KDE "koders" have a konvention to show a "krash" with a doby brick "ikon"...

    Probably not, but then that's what humanity invented theme packages for.

  • You know, I've been around the block with software for a lot of years now. I have a lot of respect for KDE and the team. But what is the macho BS of not bothering to include simple installation instructions with the binary distribution? I am sitting experimenting with the rpms to find an order where they load without errors. But after loading the kdesupport, kdeutil and qt stuff, none of the rest of them seem to have their dependencies satisfied. Accuse me of being a wimp if you wish but why isn't there a manifest or document saying what the dependencies are, their order and where to find them if they aren't part of the distribution? It seems like common sense and courtesy to me.

    Before I believe we are remotely ready for prime time I believe some simple housekeeping and moderate reasonableness of installation is called for. Put everthing needed in a distribution or say clearly where the needed pieces are found. Don't lead would be users and testers in the lurch.

    If someone has the information I need then please send it to me.

    thanks.

  • Why on earth would anyone in the internet age make the bold statement that "the vast majority of apps will run locally"? In this day why in the hell is it anyone's business to make assumptions about whether the components of an app reside? I was under the impression that a lot of software system development effort went in to making that sort of second-guessing the runtime environment unnecessary. But here we have a system that builds on a proprietary framework on the basis of such guessing. We should be opening systems and removing assumptions NOT enshrining them YET AGAIN.

  • You could say it's simply the spelling in another language. Kopernikus and Kleopatra are correct spellings for those names in German...

    :-)

  • Re:My favorite CORBA lines... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Marshalling in freeform ASCII (with an extremely verbose markup syntax) easily admits a lot of brain-damaged tools, but "elegant" it ain't. There's no provision for:
    • interface versioning (change your contract and your clients are both surprised and screwed)
    • asynchronous methods (all responses for one connection have to be returned in order, and a big pile of TCP sockets gets real expensive in a server)
    • bignums (these bozos don't even realize 64-bit machines will be important!)
    • object references (why does i4 get a type when "reference to remote object" doesn't?)
    • metadata (what, did they forget to write a DTD to describe methods and their arguments? How the fsck do you use it without knowing that?)

    XML-RPC is a feeble effort to keep us sitting in the back of the DCOM bus.

  • GNOME and KDE are intended for Windows users just making the switch. They mimick the Windows interface as closely as possible to easy the transition. Those that don't need that kind of this can move on to more advance wms, like Enlightenment, that can look radically different. I, too, use E and I am very happy with it.

    Ulitmatly, these enviroments will help convert a lot of people. Some of them will stay there, but the ones who want to learn more about their computers will move on to other things. Not to say that GNOME isn't an advance UI. It is a very good setup, and I use it third most often after E and TWM. You can be an advanced user and use GNOME. But many will move on to something more flexible. E's menus are certainly easier to customize.

  • Re:Library upgrades (Score:3)

    by overshoot ( 39700 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @04:08AM (#1000764)
    jbarnett wanted to know:
    Seriously though, this isn't meant as a flame, but why do you *HAVE* to upgrade *RIGHT NOW*? If KDE (whatever version you are using) works for you, why not stick with it? Wait till KDE 2.0 gets tested and debugged by more users, and wait till you almost have to upgrade. (this advice is only toward desktops, other software may differ)

    Just a wild guess here, but -- maybe to test the silly thing? Remember, this is open-source software. We don't pay for it in cash, and not everyone can add code, but we can all add eyeball time. Which is the coin of the open-source world.

    You do intend to pay your dues, don't you?

  • Re:serious question... (Score:5)

    by Imperator ( 17614 ) <slashdot2.omershenker@net> on Thursday June 15, 2000 @04:15AM (#1000769)
    Yeah, can anyone help me with a Linux problem I have? I tried GNOME and liked it better, so I wanted to remove KDE. I got rid of all the packages starting with "k", and now LILO crashes.

    j/k

  • YOUR TROLL SCORE IS (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 15, 2000 @04:16AM (#1000770)
    4

    You trolling skills are very rough and need to be honed. You lose major points by falling into the trap of many new trollers, you are way too obvious. Lets do some in depth analysis on your troll:

    Wow. Yet another program whose job it is to devour my entire screen so I can run half-baked programs that duplicate everything I already have. No thanks

    You troll entry point here is all wrong. If you start your troll routine on an agressive it sets off a red flag for the judges.I realize your adrenaline is runnig high but you need to start off a little slower to be an effictive troll

    Give me a break. KDE and GNOME are worthless. I can run any program I want without a huge "panel", without a start button, and without a bloated gui. The insistence of the KDE and GNOME teams upon you only using their software is sickining. Why shouldn't I use software that hasn't been "blessed" by KDE with a spot on the K menu, or on the panel?

    Okay now your deep into your troll here but your form is all wrong. Instead of going with the angry self-rightous tone maybe you should try the "I'm a confused newbie" tone, or my favorite, the "I'm a seasoned computer proffesional" tone. The angry troll rarely works well

    Thanks, but I think I'll stick to xterm. It has a better interface anyway

    Your troll dismount is sloppy and not well thought out. You really need a lot of work here.

    Troll summary: Score 4 out of 10
  • Oh, but GNOME is sooooo much better than KDE. <ducks>

    Anyway, I see that the KDE/GNOME flame wars have gone to the next level. First there were the spacehogging arguments over GNOME vs. KDE. Now come the complaints about how these flames suck. Maybe I should do some complaining, too... Why can't we just discuss the subject at hand? I last remember it being about KDE 2.0 -- thanks everyone.

    --

  • We use standard CORBA profiles, so yes, we can talk to other ORBs, but we do it in a secure fashion.

    The side effect you observe means that we wont trust anyone that wants to talk to us. Just those that have permission to talk to us.

    Miguel.

  • Re:Looking Forward to Konq (Score:5)

    by knoll ( 116163 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:49AM (#1000781)
    Let me try to answer your questions about the current status of khtml (the html rendering engine of konqueror):

    You can use aswell as to include html subpages. Or do you mean including the html directly? This is nowhere defined in the HTML standards AFAIK.

    CSS positioning is supported except for fixed, but I'm confident we'll have that working by the time we release KDE2.

    CSS2 support is however far from being complete. :before and :after pseudoclasses are still not supported, neither is the text-shadow property. But to be honest, there isn't a single browser out having support for text-shadow, the same is true for a lot of other CSS2 properties.

    PNG alpha channels are not supported, but that is a limitation of X11 rather than konqueror. One could in principle work around that, but the price to pay for it is quite heavy, since one has to get the pixmap below the image from the server, blend the image on top and send the result back to the server. This would slow down rendering more than I am willing to compromise on for such a feature.

    I'm not quite sure what you mean by XML namespace selection in CSS2 sheets. Anyway, khtml unfortunately still doesn't have support for XML (xhtml is supported however), just because the developers we have are booked out with other things.

    Cheers,
    Lars

  • Re:What's all the whinging for? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    In the spirit of things.... grdb is based on krdb (as nicely mentioned on grdb's home page) This is not one-upmanship. Just credit where credit is due (the original poster seemed to imply that this was a Gnome only feature...)

  • Re:Looking Forward to Konq (Score:3)

    by Wickie ( 101214 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:57AM (#1000787)
    You might be interested in this page: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~dbaron/css/test /results
    It shows a comparison between several browsers, including Konqueror, regarding CSS, CSS2, etc...
  • You need a clue man.

    The interface repository only describes interfaces, it can not discover dynamically interfaces.

    Once you have an interface resolved, then you can look up its type definition.

    Miguel.
  • I'm surprised your computer stayed up long enough for you to be able to finish typing that in.

    I guess you're not running Netscape then.

    Consciousness is not what it thinks it is
    Thought exists only as an abstraction

  • serious question... (Score:4)

    by Bad_CRC ( 137146 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @03:06AM (#1000796)
    at what point does all this "K" naming stuff stop being cute, and start being annoying?

    I'm starting to dislike all these "Krappy" names.

    Anyone else feel the same way?

    KDE is great, but, as somebody with a degree in advertising, I'd submit that too much of anything is always a bad thing.

    ________
    1995: Microsoft - "Resistance is futile"

  • KDE 1.0 apps work with Qt-1.4x and KDE 2.0 apps work with Qt-2.1x. During linkage, each app *knows* which library it wants, so you only need two libraries. One for the old apps and one for the new.

    I don't know who told you that you needed twenty different versions, but they're wrong.
  • Commercial licenses for closed source software (which uses the library) are how Troll Tech makes money. Not from derivations of the library.
    >>>>>>
    Qt is a class library. People use it be deriving from it. Under legal pressure, your QMyapp:public QApplication could be considered a derived work.

    Wrong. A GPL'd library would cover all GPL'd uses. You'd still have to pay for an exception to the GPL (like Reserfs, as I mentioned) if you
    wanted to develop a proprietary, closed source application and distribute it to someone else (internal apps could probably get away without
    paying).
    >>>>>>>
    Doesn't the GPL say that you cannot charge for the right to use to code? Isn't it impossible for Linus to use the GPL, except when it involves Microsoft? Isn't the QPL essentially the GPL with that exception?

    That would cause the very problem you were just arguing against! That *would* allow commercial proprietary software to be built on Qt without
    paying the Trolls.
    >>>>>>>>>
    I'm pretty sure that LGPL is there for a reason. If the libraries were GPL'ed, then anything linking to them would would automatically become GPL. Hence to problem I mention lower. So if GPL won't work, and LGPL won't work, what's the problem with QPL?

    >GPL'd QT would suck, since that would mean ALL
    Qt apps would have to be GPL'd.

    OK, I'll grant that. Simple solution: Make Qt Free Edition dual licensed by the GPL *and* QPL. That would keep the BSD *and* GPL folks happy.
    And still charge for the commercial version. What more could you want?
    >>>>>>>>>>
    How 'bout it stays the way it is and the GPL folk shut up? They are the ones using QPL code inside GPL code. How, in anyway, does it involved the TrollTech people? Shouldn't KDE change its license to somethign other than the GPL?

    Heh, not a bad idea. The GPL is, after all, the only good software license. :-)
    >>>>>
    I prefer BSD, but license wars are stupid. It should the entirely the author's choice, and all people who complain are just bitching.
  • GNOME and KDE are intended for Windows users just making the switch.

    Wrongo! The purpose of GNOME and KDE is to provide a desktop for X. You might not need or want a desktop, but that's no call to denigrate everyone who does. GNOME and KDE are attempting something never before achieved in X or Unix, and that is consistancy. Just because Windows and Mac also attempts this does not mean that consistancy is wrong.
  • Oh I see, my mistake. I had thought that GPL required the code made availbe for free or cost of media.
  • The problem was not actually that CORBA was unreliable --despite the KDE people repeating this over and over-- but that they chose to use CORBA as a transparent layer for inter process communications: they assumed that CORBA invocations had to be equal to function invocations, and that failures would never happen and that they should not happen.

    Their code was not prepared to deal with failures across CORBA invocations (for example, invoking a CORBA method on a dead server and handling the fact that the server died).

    Basically, it required each CORBA invocation to be handled by try {} catch blocks, but my guess is that they assumed they did not have to use that.

    Another option I heard later from someone who claimed originated from Torben --which was even more sad-- was that they wanted to "check" for the service before invoking the method to avoid a crash (or my guess is to avoid the try{} catch blocks).

    Miguel.
  • While I agree it is somewhat inconvienent to have to continually installing a new version of QT, I suspect there are not many ways out of it. At some point they must require a switch over to the new QT, and its better to start now when they are still writting code, then have to completely rewrite later.

    Plus, you can keep all your libraries by using:

    rpm -ivh qtxxx.rpm

    instead of

    rpm -Uvh qtxxx.rpm

    The first one just installs the libraries, the second will upgrade. Upgrading meaning get rid of the old versions, install just installs.

  • Re:It's getting nice (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    you took nine months to compile, and it's not likely you were worth the wait either

    retard
  • And the source is available, so it's kind of had for it to be proprietary, even if it's not quite the right way according to the OMG. There's no reason why it couldn't exist peacefully alongside something else, too.
  • when will people stop being so close-minded? I'm point-picking the headline in the announcement, it says "for Linux". But KDE is a desktop for Unix-like environments, and there are plenty Unices out there...

    Regards, Tommy

  • Re:KHTML? (Score:4)

    by knoll ( 116163 ) on Thursday June 15, 2000 @05:01AM (#1000826)
    I can give a short summary about the current status of khtml.
    • Html4: about 95% implemented.
    • CSS1: about 80%-90% implemented. Only very few properties are still missing.
    • CSS2: about 40%. Together khtml's CSS support is not far away from what IE5 on windows offers.
    • DOM Level 1: Almost complete. The HTML part is completely implemented, a few thigs specific to XML are still missing.
    • DOM Level2: The CSS part, traversal and ranges are implemented. Still missing are the events. This means about 70% is implemented.
    • Support for java applets is mostly complete.
    • Netscape plugins (flash, real player, etc) work.
    • Javascript: The core (ecma-262 version3) ist almost complete, but the DOM bindings still need some work.
    • khtml has support for bidirectional scripts (hebrew and arabic).
    • it is pretty fast :-)

    khtml is still a bit buggy on some pages, but we expect to get that fixed until the release of KDE2. As long as you don't need too much javascript it is already very useable and many people are using konqueror as their main browser.

    Lars

  • > KDE started off as the "Cool Desktop Environment"

    I doubt the veracity of the book story. I suspect "Kalle's Desktop Environment", but the KDE maintainers have insisted that the "K" doesn't stand for anything at all, and that it was sort of a germanized spoof name of CDE (diesen krazy deutschlanderen, jah?).

  • I am slightly pissed that they reffered to KParts as an object model. An object model is something along the lines of COM and SOM, and simply define a method for easily upgradable, shared objects. When he refers to the fact that KParts handles stuff like where toolbars should go, he gets it wrong. An object model does not handle those thins, that is the work of a embedding system (don't know the jargon for it), along the lines of OLE or OpenDOC. In these cases, OLE and OpenDOC are the embedding system, and they use the object model (COM and SOM respectivaly) to facilitate the embedding.
  • You touched a nerve here actually. ORBit has some sort of client authentication built in which means it can't interoperate with any other ORB. That to me is defeating the whole purpose of CORBA. If you can't interoperate with other ORBs you might as well write your stuff in your own programming language and develop your own APIs. Besides Having read Bonobo intro it doesn't look as good as the old KParts (I hope the new DCOP based KParts are just as clean). Bonobo otoh is a COM ripoff - it uses CORBA only to do marshalling and IDL.
  • I have a big beef with KDE though. No not the licensing silly! It's the fact that they ditched Corba as their component architecture. Why? It's not slow at all if you use in-process servers it's elegant in most languages and wiht the addition of POA it's extremely flexible.

    All well and good to stand on the soapbox and declare this, but the KDE folks stepped up to the plate, tried CORBA, and came off bitterly disappointed. CORBA is a design-by-committee standard with a hugely heavyweight protocol (you ever seen how BIG an IOR is?), and layer after layer of API.

    My biggest concern is that with OMG adopting the Corba Component Model all DCOPs and Bonobos will effectively become proprietary solutions. CCM will provide good intergration with JavaBeans which I'm sure all Java affectionados will appreciate too.

    That's like saying OSF adopted Motif. OMG did not adopt CORBA, they invented it. We didn't exactly see Motif proliferate as an open and nonproprietary solution either (though it was a breath of fresh air at the time). Maybe this or that encrustation of yet another boondoggle might someday make us all hold hands in a fully interconnected world, but in the meantime, I defy you to show me just two free and open ORBs that can interoperate at a complex level. Let's try an important one, how about the Security service?

    Why oh why did they have to rid of CORBA?!

    Because they tried it, and the same armchair designers whinged about the overhead.
  • at what point does all this "K" naming stuff stop being cute, and start being annoying? I'm starting to dislike all these "Krappy" names.

    Amen to that. The misplaced Ks sound very B-movie cheesy: Komputronix, Mortal Kombat, The Komplete Guide to Hi-larious Practikal Jokes.

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