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KDE GUI

Reasoning Behind The KDE League 119

Posted by Hemos from the behind-the-genesis dept.
Nerds writes: "Chris Schlaeger wrote a letter to explain to the KDE community at large why the KDE League was created. He explains why trying to compete with GNOME is a waste of time and mentions that Red Hat and VA Linux are still considering joining the League."
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Reasoning Behind The KDE League More

Reasoning Behind The KDE League

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  • I hope KDE is very successful in converting more windows users.

    I think the infighting between KDE and Gnome is silly. The whole point about linux and free software is the choice it gives us. We all have the choice to choose between the many wonderful interfaces out there.

    I don't personally use a "desktop environment", I use a window manager and an application launcher of some sort. But that doesn't mean I have the right to flame someone for using KDE or Gnome just because I choose to not use either of them. (I don't need drag/drop, desktop icons, a GUI file manager, etc anyway - I'm a command line freak.)

    Anyway, for those of you who flame someone from either crowd, you just look childish - go light your pants on fire if you're that bored. Me, I've got better things todo - like contribute to some of the cooler open free software projects.

    --
    Twivel

  • I find it interesting there is so much fighting between KDE and GNOME on a user level. Competition is a good thing, but fanaticism isn't. Why not use the environment that you work best in and install both environments?

    I am a GNOME user. I think that it is technically superior to KDE, etc. But who cares? They are both useful in their own ways, and I must admit that they both have much to learn from eachother. Sun has announced that Gnome will be the UI for futer versions of Solaris, so some major points have already been scored in that area, and KDE lacks such major strides forward.

    As a GNOME user, I cautiosly support the KDE League. I use the term cautiously because I recognize that although the GNOME foundation is formed to help bring vendors together in bringing useful new technology to the desktop, while KDE League seems like a marketing venture, not really geared at the growth of their environment.

    I have a friend who commented that application developemnt was more difficult and took longer in Linux than it did in Windows. Currently GNOME makes this much easier and KDE has a long way to go in bringing rapid-development technologies (in Windows: COM, DCOM, OLE, ActiveX) into their desktop. I think that if KDE is to be successful, it will need to come up with its own way of doing this.

    But I have to admit, it is not about the UI. OSs thrive on offering large number of APIs to developers. KDE offers many APIs that GNOME does not. This adds a greater degree of flexibility for the developer, and as both KDE and GNOME can offer their libraries/APIs while the other is running, I think that they both help Linux. Long live competition, but let it not degenerate into a brawl.

  • Choice is good and competition generally creates imrprovements, the problem is that KDE and Gnome still haven't made a desktop that as good as Win2k or MacOS. If they're going to compete, how about doing it after you've made a better product, not before?

  • c'mon, don't forget that the object is to destroy the evil empire, and if a "League" helps this, so be it.

    Hell, we should even start thinking about incorporation and undermining GNU, 'cuz the ends justify the means everytime.
  • offcourse they have 70% of desktop market. desktop != window menager. kwm/kde and sawmill/gnome (e/gnome) has probably around 20% of wm market but they have together almost 100% of desktop market.

    btw both enlightment and windowmaker have larger user base than any of the desktops.
  • That sounded a bit childish, dont you think?

    "I am better because I use an expensive OS on expensive hardware"

    Why dont you ask Google about the benefits of using Linux on el-cheapo intel-compatible hardware?

    Really! Some people just cant afford Sparc, and some of us wouldnt use it, even if we could afford it! So please respect other peoples choices!

    Granted, the discussion isnt about OSs, but about desktop enviroments.
    But you'll have to admit that GNU/Linux systems running GNOME and/or KDE are the best choice for desktop users that just wanna ditch Microsoft. That is the reason people are talking about this in relation to Linux.

  • So what? The letter talks about "converting all the gnome users" a couple of times, and I really think this is the wrong attitude. Yes, competetion is good, but this is almost genicide. The end result of most religious (vim/emacs, linux/*bsd, gnome/kde) wars is "use whatever works for you". I think an attitude more like this might have been a better way to present things. Who cares about what percentage of people out there use gnome vs. kde? Does this really matter? I say no, and I think a lot more would get done in the DE and development of these toolkits if people remembered that.

    What they *should* be doing is trying to make things like DnD work between gnome and kde apps, as well as sharing components, themes, etc. I don't care if an app is written in kde or gnome, I just want it to work and to work as expected. If I like randomgnomemailer, but I do my PIM in randomkdepim, I'd like to share or at least transfer information between the two. This is what I think all users want and what will help linux out in the desktop "war".

    This is where microsoft and windows has it right. One wiget set and one set of core libs (for the sake of argument anyway) means that DnD always works (as long as the programmer of the application has put the code in), widgets always work the same and things are generally more "user friendly" because there are no gotchas ("sorry, you can't use this program without this other program installed, and there is NO way to get that other program to work with either of them, you'll have to use this other program instead").
  • KDE is used on more the 70% of all Linux desktops. We could fight for those remaining 30% but given that Linux has less than 5% of the overall desktop market we should rather target the 95% of desktop users than compete with our friends from the GNOME project. Just converting 5% of Windows users will get us more KDE users than converting all GNOME users

    Do I see a poll coming up....

    On all my linux/FreeBSD boxen the desktop of choice is KDE. On the rest of my linux machines the command line rules supreme.

    this is vote of 7 KDE, 0 gnome (3 the evil empire TM)

  • but most of the slashdotter's don't know a shit anyway, just a bunch of fucking lemmings.
  • Man, I hope my budget is never so tight that I have to plan my annual expenses to the 10th of a penny...
    --
  • Heh! That accounts for how I use my computers (both at home and at work) pretty well. Netscape, VMware, and several open aterm windows. Of course, I don't use Afterstep, I use Window Maker...

    --

  • The letter talks about "converting all the gnome users" a couple of times, and I really think this is the wrong attitude.

    So does the person who wrote it:

    ...given that Linux has less than 5% of the overall desktop market we should rather target the 95% of desktop users than compete with our friends from the GNOME project. Just converting 5% of Windows users will get us more KDE users than converting all GNOME users.

    What they *should* be doing is trying to make things like DnD work between gnome and kde apps, as well as sharing components, themes, etc.

    I thought DND was sorted out, KDE2 can use GTK themes. GNOME using KOM/KParts, or KDE using Bonobo is unlikely. However, there is work being done in other areas, such as the joint .desktop format.

    If I like randomgnomemailer, but I do my PIM in randomkdepim, I'd like to share or at least transfer information between the two.

    Well the latest konqueror can import (and export, I believe) Netscape bookmarks, so it's a start. But I think that things like addressbooks, bookmarks, email, etc, should be treated as documents rather than configuration for specific programs, and they should be usable outside of a GUI.

    This is where microsoft and windows has it right... things are generally more "user friendly" because there are no gotchas ("sorry, you can't use this program without this other program installed)

    What? MS does this too, it's standard practice to rely on other components - otherwise everything would go to hell. What would you rather people do, statically link every program? Ever install something that needed a new DirectX, or a VB runtime DLL?

  • Can I second that? :)

    Im sorry folks, I really love C/C++ and I have a HUGE book sitting here called Programming Windows with MFC..

    Ive been doing MFC for about a year just doing my own little C++ projects under windows, playing with XML parsers, and various nifty little API's and writing my own libraries to interface web applications with

    I used GTK muddled through all of the code and I thought I was going crazy with GTK, I dont mind C nor any of the nuances of the language. I just found GTK annoying to use a lot, sure its neat and looks nice but... just.. blah thats my general impression of GTK, its like its written for a crowd of people who cant let go of the past

    Then I found QT, I feel in love, in 30 minutes I had found my C++ toolkit that just blows eveyrthing to date (for C/C++ away)

    I followed a few of the real cutesey basic Qt tutorials and then followed a few of the cutsey KDE tutorials and KDE just makes so much more sense to me than a lot of GNOME stuff, the code seems to be easier to write and easier to keep free of errors if you write your C++ well

    I realize most people dont but, I have always loved Qt, even if you have to pay for it in windows (the only disadvantage) I think its really great.

    You wanna port stuff to windows? Your a large development house, Qt is the way to go

    You can write cross platform stuff pretty easy, its awesome, anyways

    Enough rambling, these are just my own warped opinons..

    Jeremy

  • KDE motivation... seems odd. (Score:5)

    by ajs ( 35943 ) <{moc.sja} {ta} {sja}> on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @02:05PM (#606050) Homepage Journal
    The KDE League mission statement:
    "To establish KDE as a desktop standard for PCs, workstations, and mobile devices, to promote software development for KDE and to promote the use of KDE by enterprises and individuals."
    The goals of the GNOME Foundation according to foundation.gnome.org:
    the Foundation will coordinate releases of GNOME and determine which projects are part of GNOME. The Foundation will act as an official voice for the GNOME project, providing a means of communication with the press and with commercial and noncommercial organizations interested in GNOME software. The foundation may produce educational materials and documentation to help the public learn about GNOME software. In addition, it may sponsor GNOME-related technical conferences, represent GNOME at relevant conferences sponsored by others, help create technical standards for the project and promote the use and development of GNOME software.
    Do you see the difference between these two organizations? KDE has, as far as I can tell, always focused on taking over as the one standard desktop. Why? Why are they so non-inclusive?

    KDE can claim 70% of the desktops (where do they get this figure anyway), in the end they're yet another desktop, and people are welcome to use it.

    For me, until there are bindings for Perl (their Web site claims there are, but only Qt is supported, and it's 6 months old) or C, I'll stay away from developing for it. To the rest of you who choose KDE: good for you! At least we've moved beyond the day of Motif/CDE and other such crap. KDE is much more of a modern desktop which earns my respect if not use.

  • Umm, diffrent is good to an extent. I don't want to reboot into a diffrent os just to play quake, and then reboot to run my e-mail client and then reboot to run my development platform. I want one OS that runs everything damnit
  • since im working as a sysadmin at a uni, i'll add my own :
    5528 - evil empire.
    3416 - macintosh
    1248 - 4dwm (irix)
    834 - CDE (solaris)
    ~120 - GNOME (Linux)
    ~45 - KDE (linux)
    ~15 - Afterstep (linux + Solaris)
    the rest headless.
    the reason gnome numbers waay more than kde is simple - redhat ships with gnome as default.
    Instead of stupid statistics can i suggest the WMs all work together ? Its a goddamn PAIN IN THE ARSE for developers to write an individual installer for EVERY FUCKING DESKTOP/DISTRO known to man...so usually they dont - which is even worse IMHO.
    And get the bloody LSB out for crying out loud.
  • That was fairly harsh. Considering the $ was used, and the author's English was perfect, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that other standards of English were being followed, such as the '.' representing a decimal and the ',' separating thousands.

    In that light, a single deviation from those standards could cause confusion, which is the original poster's point.
  • When Linux (and KDE, GNOME, etc.) begins to win over the desktops of non-geeks, it will be because Linux is the first system they learned, or because their office uses it.

    I agree that people who are not interested in computers will probably never convert to a better operating system than the one they first learned, unless forced to do so.

    However, if Linux becomes the system of choice for schools, universities and large organizations, Linux will win the desktop battle regardless of the wishes of non-geeks (who will benefit in spite of themselves).

    AnhZone

  • Check prices: KDE K Desktop Environment [zdnet.com]
    haha...

    downgrades any respect for the writer immediately. :-)
  • Short answer: Money talks!

    Long answer:
    As more and more people realize that you can get a complete DE for free, more people will go for GNOME/KDE/Whatever that fits them. It will not happen overnight, but as the DE's matures it will get more and more attractive. The PC manufactures will also be tempted til dump Windows, so they don't have to pay the "MS Tax".

    The GNOME/KDE DE's are not quite ready yet - they are close, but there are a few things which is not there yet. Installing new apps is one of them - it isn't easy enough, but Helixcode's Red Carpet looks like a killer!.

    Greetings Joergen
  • Damned right. That's one of the reasons I use Windows. No choices! There's only one (mostly) widget set! (Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons I won't use Mozilla. If the system widgets aren't used, than neither is the program. Winamp was booted for similar reasons.)
    Not that I'm against choice, but mine is rather clear :) I vaguely recall, long ago, describing my attitude as "I'll buy a car of any color, as long as it's black."
    Strangely, this attitude set in about the same time I started using my computer primarily for games. Also, an attitude of not wanting to think or care about how the computer works came about as well.
  • KDE started out as a project to make Linux easier to use, and was aimed primarily at the Windows crowd. Since the KDE project used a not fully free toolkit, a new project named Gnome started. It used the GTK+ toolkit and basically had the same goal as KDE: give Linux an interface that simplified usage. Unfortunately, none of these apps really make Linux any easier to use, since it is broken from the start.

    Most of Slashdot readers say that we shouldn't try to make GUI:s with lots of bells and whistles. That is incredibly correct, mostly because everything below the GUI is strange or just plain wrong. Let's start with /etc. What the heck does it mean, and why not give it a logical name like /Settings instead? Same thing with /home and /bin, which should be /Users and /Applications. Also, take a look at the myriad of settings files in /etc, why not smb.conf. This file would be much better represented using XML and tree-structured settings, and so would most of the other files.

    Documentation in Unix is incredibly bad - the man pages are incredibly complex. When the user wants to know what 'ls' does and how to use it, he/she should be able to type "help ls" and recieve at most a screenful of information about the command, what it does and how to do the most important things with it.

    What I propose is a project where the focus is on removing all of the Unix strangeness and replace it with common sense. No care should be taken to "preserve the Unix tradition" nonsense. In the end, all GNU apps should be able to compile with -DCOMMON_SENSE to create the user-friendly version and without any flags to create the guru-friendly version.
  • Well, the dollar sign is used in Germany as well. So, $120.000 makes perfect sense to me.
  • Last I heard, Troll tech changed the lincensing for the QT enviroment, and QT for X11 is now under a QPL/GLP lincense. You can even download it for free at thier download site [trolltech.com]. They did this less than 2 months ago (since QT 2.2), there was even an article about it on this site [slashdot.org].

    You only have to pay if you use it to develop commercial/proprietary software (they want you to use the professional/enterprise version for that, thier FAQ [trolltech.com] has more information on this), you don't have to pay (in fact, you can just use the free version) if you want to run KDE, and you don't have to pay to use it to develop open source software.

    If there's something I misread, that feel free to clarify your post. Otherwise, please stop spreading FUD and incorrect/out-of-date infomation, it will make you look smarter at the very least.
  • That is all about taste...

    Some people like GNOME, some people find KDE more pleasing - nothing strange in that. It's just like there are many different cars because people have different taste.
    Greetings Joergen

  • I have a friend who commented that application developemnt was more difficult and took longer in Linux than it did in Windows. Currently GNOME makes this much easier and KDE has a long way to go in bringing rapid-development technologies (in Windows: COM, DCOM, OLE, ActiveX) into their desktop. I think that if KDE is to be successful, it will need to come up with its own way of doing this.

    This is simply not true!
    I'm absolutely no expert in either DE, but KDE2 has very powerful alternatives to COM. Take a look around on the KDE homepage [kde.org]. From what I have read it should be very easy to create components under KDE2. Furthermore Qt should be pretty easy to develop in and there is a nice IDE called KDevelop [kdevelop.org].
    Also read the other comment (from an AC) to your post.

    Greetings Joergen
  • Yeah, sure. But if you want to code in a language that doesn't blows your head of with buffer overflows everytime you code? C just isn't worth the hassle, and a C++ is just badness multiplied.

    Otherwise I guess Qt is good. But I'd prefer gtk since that leaves me a choice, and isn't that one of the points of Free Software?

  • Do you see the difference between these two organizations? KDE has, as far as I can tell, always focused on taking over as the one standard desktop. Why? Why are they so non-inclusive?

    WRONG!
    They write "To establish KDE as A desktop standard for PCs, workstations...".

    They don't write THE desktop standard.

    If you don't believe me, please read the comment from Andreas Pour (Chairman, KDE League) where this article is posted [kde.org].

    Greetings Joergen
  • Talking about talking over and then only provide bindings for C++ (which can cause brain damage after long exposure) doesn't sound that nice a future to me. (giving only one solution and closing the door sounds like M$ to me...)

    I'd like to have a choice when I code. Using GNOME/gtk I can choose /not/ to use C++ and that alony makes my deciscion(sp?) simple.

    GNOME everytime.
  • But this can't be true, because every 2 years Microsoft releases a brand new "look & feel" for Windows, and the tech writers lap it up like the capitalist lackey dogs that they are.

    I believe this is so users feel they are actually getting something for their upgrade money. Something tangible. New DirectX drivers alone doesn't quite cut it.

    - Scott
    ------
    Scott Stevenson
  • Hmmm...

    ".... Several programs seem to live the eternal beta-alpha sickness..."

    "....In fact KDE looses to Gnome on what concerns the quality of programs...."

    Interesting. Bit inconsistent aren't we? Next time take a deep breath and count to ten before you post an emotional outburst as fact.
    In fact, how is the Gnome interface a frankenstein? I have some gripes with it as well, I'd love to compare notes, but sadly you do not give examples to back up your outrage.
    This seems to be a clear case of the pot calling the kettle black.

    Cheers,

    Mart
  • What is the future of Gnome and KDE on non-Linux desktops?

    Because of the cost to commercial developers of the underlying toolkit, Qt, I think the future of KDE on non-Linux desktops is not too bright. OS vendors have little interest in putting their own customers at the mercy of a third party vendor.

    The only way I see that change is if either someone buys Troll Tech outright and re-releases the toolkit for free, or if individual vendors make deals similar to Motif licenses, where the Motif stuff was simply included with the OS, free even for commercial development. But do we really want to go back to those days?

  • LOL! ... but.. wasn't Solomon Grundy a good guy?
  • Let me prefix this by saying that I think technically KDE is a good achievement. It's pretty zippy, quite robust, and seems well-written. I think on technical grounds, KDE does not need to fear comparison with Gnome.

    But I find the KDE "mission statement" unacceptable:

    "To establish KDE as a desktop standard for PCs, workstations, and mobile devices, to promote software development for KDE and to promote the use of KDE by enterprises and individuals."

    To me, free software is about diversity, the ability to try things out, and the ability to customize software to everybody's needs. It's the notion of a "standard" that bothers me about Windows, a "standard" that, in the case of Windows is enforced through closed source releases. But KDE can just as effectively "enforce" standards in the open source world--there are plenty of mechanisms. Open source software is meaningless if it results in the same kind of dull standardization that the closed source world has suffered under.

    If it is true that KDE is already on 70% of the Linux desktops, as the KDE League claims, I can only conclude that it is time to stop installing it, promoting it, and recommending it, and to work on something else. And if KDE really succeeds at marginalizing other Linux desktops, I'd just switch to Windows. I really don't see a difference between being forced to use a "standard" system from Microsoft or from KDE.

    Fortunately, the UNIX and X11 architecture still makes that possibility fairly remote on the desktop. But on palmtops, Troll Tech really does want to take over with Qt/Embedded, which would not seem to allow non-Qt applications to co-exist on the same screen.

    If KDE succeeds at its mission, it will have failed.

  • Of course you are entitled to having favourites! But my point was that you would be able to drive another car if you had to rent one on a business trip, for instance.

    Some people think that computer desktops HAVE to have a panel with a start button, or even a taskbar for users to be able to do anything with them, else they will run in fear.

    disclaimer: I run both GNOME and KDE and i like panels (although mine doesnt have a start button) and taskbars (although mine shares space with a pager)

  • I've had many problems with the stability of Xfree86, and I've had it lock the system quite hard.

    Wow... You must have some very wierd hardware. Or you must be running an old version... or have something misconfigured. I'm using the newest XFree86 available through Debian 2.2, and I rarely have trouble. And I've never had it lock the system hard... In contrast to a Windows system running on this same machine, which tends to lock up at odd times for no apparent reason. Even when I'm not doing anything much with it.

    Little you could do with GNOME that you couldn't do with FVWM... Like what? There's lots I can do with GNOME that I couldn't do with FVWM, and even more that KDE lets you do (although I'm not a KDE user myself). Cut-and-paste seems to work universally with few or no problems, I use a mix of keyboard and mouse (almost exactly the same as I did with Windows).

    Browser-wise... If Netscape's so bad, then why not try one of the wide range of other Linux browsers available? Like Konqueror, Galleon, Mozilla, etc.

    And for office suites... Have you even tried KOffice? Or some of the stuff the GNOME people are putting together? The reason MS Word import filters are so bad is because Word doesn't follow its own guidelines for pasring documents.


    -RickHunter
  • Ah, sorry, it appears you haven't looked closely enough. KDE is a UN*X desktop, it works on everything from AIX to Solaris, so mentioning Linux is just for marketing reasons (and the fact that the installed base of Linux is probably higher than that for all other Unices combined - as shown by a study recently conducted by the German UN*X magazine iX).

  • 1. it says "a standard desktop" not "the standard desktop", that's a crucial difference.

    2. KDE != KDE League, so your quote is not "KDE's mission statement"

  • Re:Perceptions of OSS infighting (Score:3)

    by blazer1024 ( 72405 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @01:03PM (#606075)
    But you got to remember, those tech columnists/"the average desktop user" doesn't want choice, they want everything to work together like some sci-fi fantasy world. Where you can check your email from a snack machine or a bus station that looks and works exactly the same way as your home computer.

    For geeks, differences are good. We try out different DE's and OSes to try to find what we individually feel is "best". They think differences are bad. They learn one interface, and that's what they stick with. Generally they just want to check their email, chat with friends, surf the web, write a document, etc. To switch from Windows to GNOME, KDE, AfterStep or whatever wouldn't be worth it to them. They don't want to take the time or effort to learn something new, when they have something that works fine for them.

    That's probably the biggest reason Linux/(Any desktop env.) doesn't take users away from Windows. You could show them the greatest Linux setup, with all sorts of bells and whistles, show them that it's stable as a rock, never crashes, runs everything that they're going to want to do, etc. Unless they are incredibly impressed, they're probably going to say something like "Why? I have something that works for me. So what if it crashes occasionally? If I install this new stuff, I have to take the time to learn it, to install it in the first place, install everything, etc."

    To the average person, it's about ease of use. Something they already know how to use is automatically easier for them to use.

    Someday, maybe that will change. People may start realizing that there are better alternatives, and that really, learning to use them IS beneficial. But until the general populace thinks that way, it may be awhile before Windows (desktop) users switch to something else. For now, we can only hope and dream.
  • From the letter: The KDE League has a budget of around US$120.000 for the first year. Should we assume that means $120K ?
  • The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME.

    Well, what I always tend to hear in these letters is the glorification of their system. It is so easy to use and so fun to code for and the technology is so amazing and we have so-and-so many users and ... It goes on and on through the text, between the lines.

    The point you make seems to me like just that, nobly denying competition against their main OSS-enemy.. (Of course, that's the way it should be..)

    Of course, it's the same on both sides, like RMS's reply [linuxtoday.com] to the GPL-ification of QT.

    It just strikes me more in KDE letters as I'm a user of GNOME, but I guess KDE users notice it in all GNOME posts too.
  • Have you people read alot of the zdnet commentaries? Although i admit i enjoy most of them, they are designed to insight infighting. I think the editors look for stories that will pit one side against the other in an endless "my os/cpu/tech-idol can beat up your os/cpu/tech-idol" flame war. Zdnet rather than being unbiased through objectivity will critisize anything in order to get more life out of articles sometimes. (but it is fun to read what some people will post in response to them)
  • As for me, I'm going after the KDEssian Federation.
    `ø,,ø`ø,,ø!
  • How is this flamebait? Oh yeah now I remember, the moderators at Slash dot are fucking inbred pieces of shit with out an open mind..
  • Since when does 70% or the developers = 70% of the users?

    -Compenguin
  • What is the future of Gnome and KDE on non-Linux desktops? It seems to me that both have strong Linux and BSD support including compiled binaries but neglect broad support for commercial UNIXes with the exception of Solaris. I would hope that one of them overtakes CDE since I've begun using a Solaris box recently and find that CDE is way behind the times on usability features. Is IBM, HP, Compaq, and SUN proposing this and helping implement for GNOME or KDE? Also, I think this would further help the adoption of Linux since it would be a common environment above and beyond the UNIX-like shell that we have today. Thoiw would help make switching environments, a hell of a lot easiert.
  • i was just reading that article.. seems like tom is bitter because he didn't get the recognition he thought he desevered.. not really that big news.. i've read other times when one site will make jabs at another site...(maybe even here.. gasp)
  • And since when is a sampling of a narrow intrest specific sub-group a good sampling of the group as a whole. A sampling of developers isn't any better than Compenguins sampling of 5 friends.

    -Compenguin

  • 70% of desktops? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah right. GNOME is the default on Red Hat and KDE is not even shipped on Debian. That's 50% of the linux market right there.
  • I am not pro-KDE. I am stating what I saw from my observations. And my observations say that more than 60% of users choose KDE as main interface. However only 10-20 persons among 4500 choose Gnome. Meanwhile most people use programs based on Gnome/Gtk, more than KDE ones. Anyway, here, the difference is not os big, probably 60 to 30. But one fact remains nearly EVERYONE doesn't like Gnome as an interface.
  • And probably this is what makes Gnome/Gtk generally better than KDE ones. However I keep noting. Gnome's interface IS A FRANKENSTEIN. And it is those same average users are saying. Those same Windows which KDE wanna take over. I have thousands of them here and I asked them what do they think about the interfaces. And they said KDE & WindowMaker are good. And Gnome got even worse than BlackBox. So why Gnome&RMS fans FUD so acidly here?

    Ok lay me down! Flamebait! Unberrated! Troll! Neanderthal! Go Fish! There is something else more than stupid half-brained soft wars. Remember that Linux, in its hearth, has NOTHING to do with Gnome/KDE. And that there is also: WindowMaker, BlackBox, AfterStep, ICEwm and many others. And whoever comes here demonstrating his intelligence by FUDding his neighbor, he is a M$ lawyer...
  • I'm highly amused by all this debate over GNOME vs. KDE. If you look at the the real corporate market, it's wall-to-wall Motif on UNIX systems. And it will remain so, there is no advantage in change, only expense.

    Grow up folks, you're fighting a war that has been lost already on UNIX to Motif years ago -- and for the other 90% of the computer market, it's dominated by Windows desktops.

    Most computer users (as opposed to hackers) simply don't gve a damn about all this, they've got their desktop and WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE.

    It would be much more productive if the KDE crowd (with a Windows desktop clone) and the GNOME crew (which is a Stallmanesque political creation) got on with inventing something new, instead of building square wheels.
  • Up until recently, you were right. Trolltech did think it over and it's quite alright to use it now. Check out what RMS wrote about it.

    The thing we should be concerned about is that Qt still is only usable with C++ and that limits your choice and your programming freedom (no political meaning intended) which I don't like.

    Convince the KDE guys to fix that and then I guess KDE could be alright. Until then I code for GNOME.

    If you for some strange reason /like/ C++ you are beyond hope... ;)

  • As I read it, he said they want more 'mindshare', not 'marketshare'. I.e., convincing more kids to joining the fun of making mud pies ( or even only throwing them in each other face :-).

  • Sounds like a comic book. (Score:3)

    by Bob McCown ( 8411 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:33PM (#606092)
    The KDE League, from their secret base in the dormant volcano, uses all the technology at their disposal to defeat the minions of GNOME....

  • Don't get me wrong: I *do* believe in competition and I do not think all Linux users are expecting to wake up some day just to find themselfs in a Windows-like world where there is ONLY ONE desktop environment left and no alternative at all.

    But I would like to make clear that those 'political' fighting about KDE and GNOME just does not help anybody (except those people dis-liking free software anyway).

    To see the implications of that you might want to have a look at this wonderful article written by Byron Sonne. I am sure you'll like it. :-)

    http://home.snafu.de/khz/Sonne/A_contra_B.html

    Karl-Heinz
    --
    "Why do we have to hide from the police, Daddy?"
  • You're dissing gnome, dude. You're dissing gnome on a site run by a Debian fanatic...

  • Well, yes, you're right there... I was just saying that the wording of that paragraph made it sound like they weren't targeting the Microsoft user base because its the right thing to do... Only because its bigger.

    I'm not saying the end result is a bad thing. (Its most definitely good - KDE (as I said) should hopefully be very good at attracting Windows users. Its a nice interface) That paragraph's wording just sounds a bit... Odd.


    -RickHunter

  • Yeah... I agree, Gtk is kind of a pain. Gtk-- doesn't seem too much better. The main problem, IMHO, is the documentation. The basic stuff is documented very well (in the tutorial), but advanced stuff, like fonts and styles or more obscure widget operations, has virtually no documentation that I could find.

    Kind of a shame... I like the GNOME interface much better than KDE (something about the feel...) but if Gtk isn't better documented, I think they'll only wind up scaring away new developers.


    -RickHunter
  • Does KDE really have 70% Marketshare? To me it seeems to be a Gnome World. Of me and my linux using friends from school 4 of us use Gnome and only 1 uses KDE.

    -Compenguin
  • I would think that Aquaman, Batman, Wonderwoman, The Green Lantern, and Superman would be a good start for the KDE League. You need them to oppose the supervillans of the Gnome Foundation like Lex Luthor, Solomon Grundy, Scarecrow, and Bizzaro. It should be quite entertaining and I look forward to watching the titanic battles of good versus evil!

  • Right. I believe them (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    As if anyone really thinks that KDE had conceived of this idea before the GNOME Foundation was announced, but just "forgot" to work on it whilst KDE 2.0 was being developed. Yeah, right, and the moon is made of cheese. Green cheese at that.

    The idea of promoting KDE to a non-Linux audience is a worthwhile one, but surely it would be better for Linux as a whole to do this, and not for separate organisations to promote their own devisive agendas. Linux has already suffered in the eyes of corporations for being too fragmented, these people want standards, not multiple and incompatible "choices". Having two separate Foundations or Leagues or whatever is just going to exacerbate the situation.

    We need a standard for the desktop, but it's not going to happen whilst KDE and GNOME are busy engaged in a pissing contest over control of the Linux desktop. Time to grow up people, before Microsoft eat your 5% market share for breakfast.

  • First, Linux is not the only system which GNOME and KDE target.

    Second, I disagree that there needs to be one API at the desktop level right now. The right way to go, IMHO, is the same way that graphics went in the 80s. Let the competing standards prove themselves, and then when one is clearly THE choice, port everyone else's applications to it. This is what happened to X, News, Domain, etc. X won and slowly everything was moved over. GNOME really already won, in my opinion because of the choice of going with C. C++ just doesn't let you play nice in the sandbox with everyone else's pet language. But, if KDE wins out in the long-run, I'll port my Gimp plugins over to Qt someday.

    As for having one API now by having the KDE and GNOME folks work together, I just don't see how. There's just so little similarity between how the two groups work. For example, Qt and Gtk+ have a totally different event structure.

    There was some work in that direction, and this was where some of the Window manager cooperation came from. But, beyond those basic steps, anything else would require one project to step down as the primary creative force deciding how a desktop works, and that just won't happen anytime too soon.
  • So, basically what you're saying is that if something is enjoyable, it can't be marketable?

    --

  • Re:Perceptions of OSS infighting (Score:3)

    by Dr. Evil ( 3501 ) on Thursday November 23, 2000 @03:57AM (#606102)

    If I hear another "Stability" argument I think I'll scream. I've had many problems with the stability of Xfree86, and I've had it lock the system quite hard.

    But even if it doesn't lock my system, my work is still lost.

    Even if I got X working solidly, Netscape is more stable under Windows than under Linux. And IE is more stable under Windows than Netscape.

    Ditto for Wordperfect under Linux, all Wine applications etcetrea. And I've tried Staroffice, I was not impressed... the import filters are as limited as import filters have ever been. You basically have to re-write any complex documents. Useless for document interchange, and the UI is definately lacking.

    My NT system at work is running a 67 day uptime, and this is not uncommon. The last reboot was due to an upgrade of the JRE. OTOH, my Linux box last rebooted about 80 days ago... there was a power outage.

    Linux has its strengths, but I just don't see them on the desktop. In addition to "stability" not being a desktop argument, think about 3d support, printing, cut-and-paste, keyboard based usage (yes, I could conceivably do everything without X, but that's comparing apples and oranges.)

    There's little I can do in Gnome which I couldn't do in fvwm, and there's a lot I can't do in Gnome which I could do with Windows on 4MB of Ram and a 386 since 1993.

    As a server, linux makes the impossible possible and every-day tasks easy. As a desktop, Linux makes the possible impossible and everyday tasks difficult.

  • So you really think management and money make something good? Im my experience, they both are major contributors to screwing things up. Its hard to believe that a corporation can produce useful code at all.

    If all the 'free software zealots' were independantly wealthy enough to not need day jobs then there probably wouldnt be any crufty 'proprietary' software at all.

  • And that's a representative sample right? (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:40PM (#606104)

    Hello, statistics people. Five people does not a representative sample make. Especially when they all know each other. Your post is basically 100% content-free.

  • Re:Right. I believe them (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well, there's always CDE. It rocks and has commercial support!
  • And those damn KDEians.. er.. Athenians... are going down! ;)
  • This is reminiscient of the Delian and Peloponnesian Leagues, at least in name. :)
  • ...meanwhile the Rebel Alliance, in a secret base is plotting to challenge Darth Vader and destroy the DeathStar...

  • The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME. I don't know if its just me, but it seemed like he was saying that they weren't trying to compete with GNOME only because there weren't many GNOME users, and that if there were more, they'd do everything possible to steal them away. As I said, its probably just me, but that paragraph still sounds somewhat odd.

    I don't know what's disturbing about that. Given the paradigm of open source software, it is a moral imperitive to "steal" users/developers from a whatever parallel projects may exist.

  • I disagree. I personally find that Gnome (I don't use KDE) is at least as useful as a desktop environment as any version of Windows or MacOS that I've used. I personally find that the degree of customizability allows me to get it working the way that I want it to work. I can set up just the features that I want and eliminate ones that I don't. There are some things that aren't handled as well (notably configuring the underlying system) but those are more issues with the underlying system than the suitability as a desktop environment.

    Furthermore, the competetion can be quite useful even if you don't consider them to be equal to Win/Mac yet. Part of their differences are about underlying programming issues rather than direct desktop usability features, and that's going to have a big impact on their long-term development potential. Nothing could more certainly guarantee that they could never catch up to Win/Mac than following a dead end in the underlying technology which would break compatibility to fix. By following two different models of the programming underpinnings, Free Software is protected against that kind of mistake.

  • Can we please keep Solaris out of the discussion just because KDE happens to run on it?
  • But hey - if more people drop M$ for *nix, you will get more developers, Open source means you get the source, you compile it on your elitobox, so you get more software, too. (Not always I know - Linux seems to be just i386 sometimes), but generally -

    Is this not a good thing?

    Think so.

    But
  • Because Linux needs a standard API. Eventually you'll realize that. Since nobody these days is as smart as the original X designers, nobody figured out it might be a good idea to make an API seperate from the desktop environment. As such, you've got two great, incompatible desktop environments dividing a small userbase. That's just stupid. Ideally, the KDE and GNOME guys would get a clue, and rearchitecture things to make a common API (even at the expense of binary compatiblity.) The second best case is that one project or the other dies and people don't have to deal with two desktops.
  • I'm sorry, but every sloaris box Ive ever seen was terrible slow responding in as far as user interface goes.

    While I will admit that the RISC/SCSI trumps the intel architecture any day, I doubt that solaris is really better than a good BSD or linux based system.

  • :if something is enjoyable, it can't be marketable?

    Yeah I think so. You start doing it for fun then you realize you can make a lot of money with it so you start marketing it, then you want more and more customers so you adapt your products for all types of customers and all of a sudden you realize that you're not doing it for fun anymore, you're coding not for your enjoyment but for the enjoyment of others, you want others to enjoy your product, you want them to buy it. Then comes all the accounting stuff you have to take care of, all the forms you have to submit, etc. etc. Is it fun? I don't think so.
    The worst part of my job is filling in the timesheet.
  • As such, you've got two great, incompatible desktop environments dividing a small userbase.

    Two, because no one uses Enlightenment or Windowmaker or Afterstep or fvwm or.......

    I'm a KDE user, but I'm sick of this "there are two destops" thing. I work at a place where there are ~100 linux desktop users. I'd say 25% use KDE, 30% use gnome, and 45% use something else. Thats nearly HALF that use something besides KDE or Gnome.

  • But you got to remember, those tech columnists/"the average desktop user" doesn't want choice,

    But this can't be true, because every 2 years Microsoft releases a brand new "look & feel" for Windows, and the tech writers lap it up like the capitalist lackey dogs that they are.

    I think what they really don't want is choice which involves choosing between Microsoft and non-Microsoft. When it's Microsoft Windows 3.1 or Microsoft Windows 95 or Microsoft Windows 2000 or Microsoft Windows Whistler (which are all so completely different as to be entirely alien to each other) why THEN it's fine.

  • It always helps to read the actual article itself. Nowhere did I postulate or infer forking of DEs (beyond what's been already done) and I certainly said nothing here about forking OSs. I've already talked about forking in a previous column [zdnet.com].

    In fact, I said very little of all about the actual code of GNOME or KDE, and much about the perceived PR efforts of the two groups. Of course choice is good -- I've also covered that ground [zdnet.com] previously.

    But this isn't about the ability to choose -- the choice of open source UIs existed before the GNOME Foundation or KDE League were ever envisioned. This is all about misguided PR, and the diverting of public attention away from the software itself and towards each group's desire to be a "standard" and backing by big-company endorsement.

    If all they want to do is advance Linux as a desktop, both KDE and GNOME (and their supporters) would do better channeling publicity efforts through a neutral umbrella group such as Linux International. By creating their own PR efforts, independent of each other and the general Linux community, they call attention to the fragmentation rather than confronting common foes (Microsoft and Apple).

    If you want to disagree with that point, go ahead. But be very clear that I'm not knocking the existence of multiple open source desktop environments, merely the undesired consequences of ill-founded PR initiatives.

  • To the average person, it's about ease of use.
    I'm not sure the average person ever tries more than one OS. If users were really doing test drives and making rational comparisons, then DOS would never have eaten CP/M's lunch, and Windoze would never have gained market share at the expense of MacOS, which was far more advanced. It mostly has to do with marketing.

    Linux has a lot of problems: (1) there's no marketing; (2) the KDE/Gnome thing is a disaster; (3) the only way to be confident your Linux is going to work without a lot of hacking is to buy a preinstalled system, which most people don't even know is available; (4) it has even less software available than MacOS. I'm not saying this to run down Linux. It's just not realistic to think of Linux conquering the world anytime soon.

    --

  • i'm not sure why im replying to this.. but anyway.. i gather you've never read Neal Stephenson's book "in the beginning was the command line"? if you had then you would realise that un*x has all these little things for a reason - microshoft has said this a thousand times - to make your life easier. what would you rather type in, day after day after day, Applications or bin? and yes, un*x is case sensitive too, so there's a happy mr shift in there too. etc, you know what that means? 'etcetera'.. and that's exactly what all those little files in that directory are. un*x has evolved into this state to make hackers lives easier. it isn't wrong, far from it. its taken 20, 30, years to get to this stage. if people haven't got half a brain to read and understand, then they shouldn't be using it in the first place! they should be using windows, or macos X (which does have what you propose, an /Applications directory, a /Settings directory - which i think are just symlinks to /bin and /etc anyway - but that's macos, a graphical OS). i know my argument isn't getting anywhere; but i think you really should read 'in the beginning was the command line'.. it's a great, historical, read if anything.
  • From my limited experience with KDE and Gnome, KDE was less hardware intensive, faster and more intuitive for me to use(oh yes, I am a Windows user).
    Also, KDE spent the extra effort to include an icelandic distribution, and not Gnome.
    This may help explain the 70% figure.
  • Hate to post another "Me too" post - but here it is.

    The beauty of Qt is that everything works they way you expect it to - Once you learn the basic concept of something, you can apply it to all widgets.

    It just feeks "right". I've never done any MFC coding, but before i switched to Qt i used GTK. I've spent more time coding with GTK, but i dont know it half as well as Qt.

    Most of the time the UI works just like i want it on the first run - and it's even easier with Qt Designer (The Trolls newest addition to Qt)

    Another thing that few people realize is that there *are* language bindings to Qt aswell - atleast for Python and C - there's probably more, but not any that i've tested.

    -henrik
  • >The idea of promoting KDE to a non-Linux audience is a worthwhile one

    GNOME didn't do that in its begining....the code was very linux-centric. Only with repeated beatings with a clue-by-4 did they stop writing linux code and start writing portable Unix code.

    Look at the comment by Chris Schlaeger:
    So promoting KDE is almost as important as working on KDE. Recent studies show that KDE is used on more the 70% of all Linux desktops. We could fight for those remaining 30% but given that Linux has less than 5% of the overall desktop market we should rather target the 95% of desktop users than compete with our friends from the GNOME project.

    Yea. Lets stop feuding with our GNOME friends.
    What about making your code work with your UNIX relatives, instead of acting that the only desktop that matters is Linux? GNOME now has an decided to stop thinking 'we are a linux project' to 'we are a Unix project' GNOME can now shoot for the claim of 'BSD/HURD/Linux/SCO/Solaris/QNX' we work with them all.

    A lead developer with KDE only talks about Linux. Way to build credibility.

  • So promoting KDE is almost as important as working on KDE. Recent studies show that KDE is used on more the 70% of all Linux desktops. We could fight for those remaining 30% but given that Linux has less than 5% of the overall desktop market we should rather target the 95% of desktop users than compete with our friends from the GNOME project. Just converting 5% of Windows users will get us more KDE users than converting all GNOME users. But those users know little about Open Source, Linux or KDE and posting to some mailing lists won't change this. To address those users we have to communicate through other channels that we have little experience with.

    What I would do is focus more on promoting Open Source, using KDE as an example to acquire new users. This way, the people can see the benefits of using Open Source software, and determine if their IT departments can benefit from switching to Open Source.
  • What fuckwit marked this as flaimbait?
  • I'm getting really fed up with this notion that all Open Source software is Linux software. I hate Linux. It's pretty good, but it's not as good as, say, Solaris.

    I run KDE on Solaris. It runs just fine. It's great. Everything works just like it does on Linux, only better because, frankly Solaris 2.7 on Sparc is simply more powerful than Linux on anything.

    Come to that, I run Apache, Perl, Mailman, and about 20 other well known Open Source packages on Solaris. Gosh! they all work!

    So, frankly, I don't give a damn about the Linux desktop and who has control over it. Nor do I care how Linux fares in the eyes of anyone at all.

    All I care about is KDE and whether it continues to be considerably better than CDE, which is a pile of crap.

    So can we PLEASE keep Linux OUT of every f***ing discussion about software which JUST HAPPENS to run on Linux because Linux JUST HAPPENS to be a clone workalike of Unix.

    Thanks,

    Jon

  • Perceptions of OSS infighting (Score:5)

    by Markar ( 154019 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:46PM (#606129)
    A ZDNet [zdnet.com]comentary critiques the GNOME Foundation and KDE League, and compares it to the infighting among brands of UNIXes. The commentary postulates that forking of DEs will occur, and further fork OSS OSes.

    The Windows community and Tech press don't seem to get it, choice is good. Microsoft has dominated so completely, for so long, that people have forgotton that, choice is good and drives competition. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

  • Don't forget the developers (Score:3)

    by mangu ( 126918 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @01:19PM (#606131)
    I worked developing MS-Windows applications for about five years before I started using Linux. After getting used to the intrincacies of MFC, Qt seems so natural, so easy to use, that I would love to program anything, even spreadshits, for KDE.

    On the other hand, Gtk, the Gnome toolkit, isn't remarkably good. Just so-so, reminds me of Motif.

    I would be absolutely neutral in the window manager wars, if it weren't for Kdevelop and Qt. For a C/C++ programmer these rock, man, gimme KDE anytime!

  • I disagree. My wife is definetely not a techie, but she now uses both KDE and GNOME without much trouble (she prefers KDE, though).

    However different the different DE's are, they're still the same windows-mouse-menu-panel metaphor that everybody knows how to use.

    Perhaps the following is a bad analogy, but think about this:
    There are hundreds of different car panel designs, also there are some that have manual transmition and others with automatic transmission... and of these last ones, some have the changes in the floor and others behind the steering wheel... yet people can drive all those different types with minimal hassle, because the basic controls (steering wheel, pedals, etc) are the same.

    What do you guys think? --I rather have a discussion than moderation--

  • Looking at these comments, it seems other people DO care about Linux, and the position of different applications on it's desktop.

    I'm resisting the temptation to describe how people vary in many ways. Different finger prints, different OS choices, different hair EVEN.

    People talk about what they want to;
    Welcome to democracy.

  • Re:A Very Good Writeup (Score:3)

    by Markar ( 154019 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @01:25PM (#606136)
    "The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME. I don't know if its just me, but it seemed like he was saying that they weren't trying to compete with GNOME only because there weren't many GNOME users, and that if there were more, they'd do everything possible to steal them away. As I said, its probably just me, but that paragraph still sounds somewhat odd."

    What I got out of reading that, was that KDE would rather expand their userbase by pulling new users from present Windows users. KDE has essentially defined their competition as Microsoft, rather than GNOME. I'd rather see M$ userbase get smaller, than GNOME's. Seems to me they are compeeting against the right opponent. Just my $0.02 FWIW, YMMV

  • Not inconsistent. There is a difference between what a program does and the front end of it. For example a program plays mp3's. Buttons, windows, menus and pictures are the front end. But the main function of the program is to play music.

    If take a VERY GOOD LOOK at Gnome than you will see that there's a big difference here. In quality most programs are better to KDE's. On interface, just take a very good look at the debug dumps...

    So don't talk me here that I'm fudding. I'm stating things I see and not crying "M$ RULEZ EVERYONE ELSE SUUUUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!"

  • Either way you look at it (Score:3)

    by Gorgonzola ( 24839 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:48PM (#606148) Homepage
    Either way you look at it, it is a laudable effort to convert more Windows users. As a happy Gnome user I think the 70% marketshare among Linux desktop users is a bit of a bold claim, but nonetheless I think the KDE project is a laudable effort. And it is definitely true that there is much more to be gained by converting Windows users than by competing for a relative minority. Not that this competition hasn't been fruitful after all, it is to be doubted that either Gnome or KDE would have gotten this far without this competition. It is good to have a bit of choice.

  • Re:KDE motivation... seems odd. (Score:3)

    by be-fan ( 61476 ) on Thursday November 23, 2000 @08:41AM (#606150)
    Enlightenment, FVWM, WindowMaker, etc are not desktop environments, they are window managers. They are also the RightWay(TM) to do things. Ideally, X (or a library on top of X) would be extended to encompass desktop management features, and the window manager could implement these features. Just as X provides the API to manage windows, but the window manager actually implements the GUI, a library should exist that provides the API for higher-level desktop environment features, and a user-selectable environment should actually implement it. That way, I could use KDE, you could use WindowMaker, and everyone else could use GNOME, and we'd all get a lot of choice in what DE to use, but we wouldn't have to deal with the bloat of multiple, redundant libraries and incompatible functionality. It would also make the user environment more consistant. I like KDE and I think everything should look like KDE. GNOME apps (even running in KDE) don't look and feel like KDE. A common API would allow all apps to have the look and feel that the user likes (which INCREASES choice) without having to limit the user to a specific body of apps. In all, it increase speed, consistancy, and choice, and helps out everything except the pesky developrs who are religiously tied to a particular API. But that's okay because developer's needs are secondary to those of the user.

  • A Very Good Writeup (Score:4)

    by RickHunter ( 103108 ) on Wednesday November 22, 2000 @12:51PM (#606151)

    A very good writeup indeed. It seems to address all the major issues in a very balanced fashion. I'm not a KDE user myself (I can't stand some of the interface elements), but I think that publicity will be good for the project. Especially since KDE (from what I've used of it) seems similar enough to Windows to attract Windows users but doesn't replicate too many of the little things that makes Windows so irritating to use (yes, almost every Windows user I've talked to has found something, and often many things, about the interface to be almost painful). Hopefully, the KDE League and the GNOME Foundation will be able to work together on promotion and such, to inform people that the world outside of Windows has options other than the command-line.

    The one disturbing thing I found about the letter was the paragraph where he talks about not competing with GNOME. I don't know if its just me, but it seemed like he was saying that they weren't trying to compete with GNOME only because there weren't many GNOME users, and that if there were more, they'd do everything possible to steal them away. As I said, its probably just me, but that paragraph still sounds somewhat odd.

    Anyway, that's really a small detail. Good move on the part of the KDE guys, and hopefully this will alert people to the number of interface options available to Linux (and other Unix-style OSes, of course). And more options are always good.


    -RickHunter
  • or macos X (which does have what you propose, an /Applications directory, a /Settings directory - which i think are just symlinks to /bin and /etc anyway - but that's macos, a graphical OS)

    Where are you getting this information? The good 'ol "I'll take a guess and just hope it's right" farm? :) Mac OS X has an /Applications directory for the graphical apps, and a separate /bin directory for the command line tools like cat, cp, tcsh, mv.

    what would you rather type in, day after day after day, Applications or bin?

    Since we're talking about GUIs, let's approach it from "what would you rather click on day after day." It doesn't matter, right? It takes a single click regardless of how long the directory name is. Besides why are you typing "/bin" everyday? You think after the first 86,400 times you'd put it in your path. And then there's file name completion.

    There really seems to be this perception in some parts of the Linux community that the people will come to unix (the culture, not the OS), rather than unix coming to the people. In my opinion, it's that mentality that will slow progress. The people aren't going to change, unix will have to (as Mac OS X is already illustrating).

    etc, you know what that means? 'etcetera'.. and that's exactly what all those little files in that directory are.

    There's way too much stuff in there for it all to be considered "etcetera." How about a "/sysconfig" directory, perhaps even with subdirectories like /net, /startup, /dns. Calling the startup directory "rc" is just ridiculous. Here's a novel idea: how about files and directories are named something that makes their purpose intuitively obvious to the user? Maybe then normal people can actually navigate the filesystem without having to buy a book. Note: for broader acceptance, you will need these people.

    un*x has evolved into this state to make hackers lives easier. it isn't wrong, far from it. its taken 20, 30, years to get to this stage. if people haven't got half a brain to read and understand, then they shouldn't be using it in the first place!

    I have never really understood where this culture's elitist attitude comes from. As if it took us 5-20 years to learn all this stuff, so why should anybody else get off easy? Maybe unix has evolved to make hackers' lives easier, but guess what? It's time for it to evolve again. That is, unless you don't actually want choice outside of Windows.

    - Scott

    ------
    Scott Stevenson

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