RoboCup 2001 Underway 62
Dan B writes: "RoboCup 2001, the fifth international competition, is underway. The competition is held from August 2nd through the 10th at the Washington State Convention and Trade Center in Seattle, Washington, USA. International teams compete their autonomous soccer-playing robots in three different leagues including Sony Legged League (remember the cute puppies?). The competition is open to the public, so if you happen to be near Seattle, check it out."
let's hope it doesn't get Battlebot'd (Score:2)
Though I have to admint, it might be interesting to put a few BattleBots in the stands to give the event the look-and-feel of a soccer riot.
Re:let's hope it doesn't get Battlebot'd (Score:2, Insightful)
I think you're totally missing the point. Some of these robots are autonomous, and they can communicate and CO-OPERATE together.
In english, this means that they can figure out, without help from people, exactly what they are and what they are supposed to do and how they are supposed to do it. On top of that, they communicate their goals to other robots on the field; leaving jobs to others that they can't do themselves.
Have you ever done the maths to try to figure out how to keep a robot upright, let alone have it hover in a stable manner? Come back when you can translate a gyroscopic reading into mathematical equations to adjust flight axis via electronic motors and gears. Do you know how hard it is mathematically to work out where your legs are supposed to go in order to move forward, or how hard it is to figure out a game strategy based on what all your team mates are doing when they are all working independantly from you? Don't even talk to me about sensors or video optical processing! None of this is trivial by todays technological standards. It is bloody hard, intesive and time consuming mathematics which eats up processor time and leaves alot of robots trundling along at the pace of a snail.
As for the AI, when you can write a program that even comes close to a bot in quake with a single goal, come back and we'll have this discussion again.
Its a shame we have people like you. I like robot wars et al, but really, this technology isnt playing around with robots; it has REAL and IMPORTANT implications for todays society. Imagine a world where, instead of firefighters putting their lives at risk, we had autonomous teams of robots that new how to put out fires and could co-operate to complete the job - or how about a fleet of autonomous helicopters that could communicate and co-operate with each other to do innumerable tasks? Still want your mindless robot wars crap? Thought not.
Do not mock this technology - it's more important and more difficult to achieve than you think, and has more applications than you could ever dream of.
Re:let's hope it doesn't get Battlebot'd (Score:1)
The challenge here is to learn HOW to develop the systems that cope with co-operation or learning using neural nets, mathematics or other forms of AI from first principles; finding one that you think works best the best and then pitting it against other people with different ideas (kinda like a genectic algorithm dont ya think?). You may be able to buy a lego mindstorms kit and develop a robot in a weekend, but that doesnt mean that someone didnt have to start building a robot and working out how to achieve these things in the first place or give a good enough reason for not even trying to do this kind of stuff, which if isnt robot wars is still cool.
And I stand by my fact that it takes a lot of maths, even with a neural net or fuzzy logic. How do you think a artificial neural network actually works if not by some form of mathematics? Your brain works in parallel, each neuron firing individually but some at the same time as others - a computer has to go through each neuron individually, calculating the outcomes of every neuron and feeding them into the others etc. We cant even make systems that are as intelligent as an ant yet, let alone a real dog, for the exact reason that is TOO BLOODY SLOW and complicated. We dont know enough about these systems or the systems that create effective behaviour yet - which is exactly WHY we have these competitions.
As for fuzzy logic, yes computational speeds have increased but its still an almost an exponential curve as you add rules to a fuzzy system - and even working out what rules to put into the equation in the first place is sometimes a process of trial and error.
Read this [fuzzytech.com] to find out more.
I'm sorry but its not as clear cut or as easy as your nice little world tries to make it out to be, theres a lot of groundwork to be covered in AI. Unfortunately most of AI's potential is still locked up in university labs, or simply not possible because our technology holds us back - we've come a long way but "Mindstorms" only scratches the surface.
Oh and before you shout "What would you know?" at me, I did study this at university, so I do know a little bit about it.. I even wrote my own autonomous co-operating AI agent which avoided walls etc for my final year project. Mindbending maths, I assure you.
Soccer matches make Baby Darwin cry. (Score:2, Interesting)
Soccer matches do not have the raw Darwinian drive to perfection necessary to provide me with my own personal R2 unit before I die. As someone who makes his living in a non-English speaking country, I WANT my own protocol droid, dammit, and I want it SOON, if not now.
Let's face it. If Team Gizmo goes to compete, and GizmoBot misses a point, they're going to go out drinking later and talk.
However, if Team Gizmo goes to compete, and the StripeBot rips the living fur off of poor little GizmoBot, leaving him to howl and scream as he goes into that long night, Team Gizmo ain't going drinking later. No, they're taking their butts back to the lab to make "the MogwaiBot: Midnight Buffet and Swim."
Enough iterations of that, and pretty soon I'll have my very own protocol droid, courtesy of Riff.
Wow. This could save some $$$s in the UK. (Score:1)
Imagine if we could create a race of perfect robotic soccer players. It could render the human players obsolete.
It would be more entertaining to watch the robot players (especially if they have flamethrowers like on robot wars).
We could change the rules to make it more interesting, and all that money we now spend on inflated wages for soccer players could go to a worthy cause, like helping the homeless, or fighting gun crime in inner city areas.
Oh well, back to building my new PC [adequacy.org]
Not replace. Mix. (Score:3, Interesting)
People watch sports and movies because they "identify" with their heroes. Watch a boxing match. See how many people move like they're the ones fighting? Been to an actual ball game lately? Ever notice how many beer-sodden wretches actually think they're part of the game? You know why you like sex scenes in movies? Because deep down you sort of believe that you're the one getting laid.
Now, if you replace the human players with bots, you really discourage identification. The whole thing devolves into a tractor pull, which isn't nearly as satisfying as watching Knute Rockney win one for the Gipper.
Here's what you want to do. Mix the humans and robots. Give each team a couple of bots. Make some of them ED 209s. Make the others Bishop.
Inevitably, some of the human players will turn into John Henry "A Man Ain't Nothing But a Man" Heroes who fight valiantly and get ripped apart by the machines.
Now, you have identification, crowds on their feet, stadiums shocked into silence, Maximus getting carried off the field by an honor guard.
And there's your box office.
Re:Not replace. Mix. (Score:1)
Re:Not replace. Mix. (Score:1)
You obviously haven't been to one of the matches. I used to program stuff in the simulation league (nothing real, just little dots moving about on the screen). You should have seen the people jumping around in the lecture theatre, yelling to their team to c'mon, c'mon, kick it in!
People will identify with - and get involved with - almost anything. You could really feel the tension in the room grow as the ball was moved closer and closer to goals.
Maybe I'm wrong though - I'm an Aussie and we'll place bets on flies crawling up a wall. :)
The current matches have preselected audiences (Score:1)
Yes, crowds will gather to watch paint dry. Truckenstein has a fan base.
But I'm talking about Box Office, events that generate excitement across the population at large. Right now, you're holding matches at the Mayfair Municipal Auditorium. I'm talking about matches at Madison Square Garden.
Re:Wow. This could save some $$$s in the UK. (Score:2)
http://www.robocup.org/ [robocup.org]
How boring would that be (Score:1)
If every robot player is the same (or, if every team is the same), then I predict that it would be very predictable (excuse the pun) and boring. Firstly, no goals would be scored. And secondly, the tabloids would go broke because there wouldn't be any soccer player scandals. And thirdly, there wouldn't be any English soccer player riots in France because there would always be draws (no wait... there would still be riots
IJCAI (Score:2, Informative)
international. phew (Score:1)
wow, this is a truly international robo-footie series (even if you Americans insist on calling it soccer ;-P )
The way the slashdot article was hyperlinked 'the fifth international competition', I had a sinking feeling it was going to be one of those USA 'World Series' sports which turns out to be 'USA plus a couple of guests'. Good on them for having a reasonable spread of participants.
Re:international. phew (Score:1)
"International" yes - "World" no, I think that's the point he was trying to make. Calling something the "World Series" kind of implies all (or at least a good chunk) of the world are involved.
RoboCup 2001 in the News (Score:3, Informative)
"Robo-cup" [npr.org] (audio, requires player) by Lee Gutkind, National Public Radio, Weekend All Things Considered, 28 July 2001
"RoboCup 2001 Marks SGI's Second Year of RoboCup Federation Sponsorship" [prnewswire.com] (press release), PR Newswire, 1 August 2001
"Robot Competitors Meet on a Soccer Field of Dreams" [nytimes.com] (free registration required) by Jeffrey Selingo, New York Times, 2 August 2001
"RoboCup: Where Bots Kick Butt" [lycos.com] by Jason Spingarn-Koff, Lycos News, 2 August 2001
"Rush is on for 'HAL'-like computer to perfect A.I." [nwsource.com] by Winda Benedetti, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 3 August 2001
"Robot world cup kicks off" [bbc.co.uk], BBC, 3 August 2001
"RoboCup 2001 boots up" [nature.com] by Helen Pearson, Nature Science Update, 3 August 2001
"Blutgrätschen ohne Blut und Beine" [stern.de], stern.de, 3 August 2001
"Roboter aus 23 Ländern tragen Fußballweltmeisterschaft aus" [net-business.de], Net-Business Online, 3 August 2001
"RoboCup 2001, il calcio visto dai robot" [punto-informatico.it], Punto Informatico, 3 August 2001
"Building a better goalie (buzz, whir)" [nwsource.com] by Gregory Roberts, Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 4 August 2001
"Man and machine take the field" [nwsource.com] by David Olsen, Seattle Times, 4 August 2001
"Robots Storm the Soccer Field" [techtv.com] by Maria Godoy, TechTV/Tech Live, 6 August 2001
Information about live Webcast of Botball finals [nasa.gov] (an event distinct from Robocup) on 7-8 August
Other Sports (Score:1)
Re:Other Sports (Score:3, Informative)
In the UK we have had a thing called the 'Robot Games', which was a whole load of 'robot' (mostly remote controlled devices, but a few genuinely computer controlled) events including swimming, running, rope climbing, high and long jumps, mouse mazes, and so on. Some of it was a bit naff but it was great fun to watch.
Re:Other Sports (Score:1)
Please excuse me for replying to myself, but I think I'd better correct myself. The event was called 'Technogames' and if you visit the BBC Robot Gallery [bbc.co.uk] you can choose to see selected highlights of this year's event. Apologies for not getting it right first time!
Re:Other Sports (Score:1)
Re:Other Sports (Score:2, Interesting)
Most other sports don't have the teamplay aspect. Whilst it would fun to watch robots throwing javelins around a hall full of people, it doesn't require the incredible coding and engineering skills that the Robocup contestants have.
However, they do have a Robot Rescue competition. This requires robots to negotiate an arbitrary warehouse rescuing victims of a fire.
Neil
Video-feeds? (Score:1)
Galleries good enough? (Score:2, Informative)
Comercialization has destroyed events like these (Score:3, Insightful)
Now there are TV shows like 'Robot Wars' on Comedy Central, and some similar program on the Learning Channel, which make a mockery of these sorts of events, allowing, entry of remote controlled devices rather than robots, and commented on by outragously dressed characcatures of human beings that you'd evpect to see on 'WWF Smackdown!'.
It's good to see that some of these competitions have remained pure durring this time of rampent commercialization.
--CTH
Re:Comercialization has destroyed events like thes (Score:3, Insightful)
The average American wouldn't want to watch this stuff if it was billed as academic, but if they are tricked into actually enjoying it, the field gets more attention.
RoboCop???? (Score:3, Funny)
I am part man, part machine.
Excuse me, I must go. Somewhere a crime is happening.
on getting mod'd down ... and crobots (Score:1, Offtopic)
I suppose I could have pondered about how much time and cycles could have been spared using a simpler operating system and perhaps retro-fitting some old-school code, e.g. Tom Poindexter's Crobots [uni-frankfurt.de] ... or given my plug for a linux based version of C-Robots [pinc.com] ... but ....
then again ... in the words of Cowboy Neal [slashdot.org] "I said that karma bores me, and I don't understand why people get all hung up over it. It's not like having a high karma is gonna get you discounts in stores. If you're really worried about karma, go donate money to charity or donate your time to some place that can use it."
where this is heading (Score:1, Interesting)
But it doesn't mention the most obvious "dangerous work." By which I mean, of course, war. Am I the only person troubled by this?
No Mobile Phones? (Score:1)
What to do? What to do?
Woohoo (Score:1)
Autonomous Robotics (Score:1)
More info (Score:3, Informative)
For those of you interrested in trying this at home (yes you can :-) the software is available for download. You can run the "server" on both Unix and Windows. Its just to write a few players and get rockin!
For those who just wants to see how it all works, there are also old teams to download. Go fetch [robocup.org]!
See it if you can! (Score:3, Informative)
Our team here at Cornell has one the last two international competitions for the small (not AIBO) class robots, in fact, they haven't lost a game yet (although I'm not sure how they're doing right now). Thier team consists of five omnidirectional player robots and one unidirectional (like foozball) goalie robot, all less than one foot in diameter.
The playing field that they use is about one and a half times larger than a ping-pong table, and their class uses a fluorescent orange golf ball for a soccer ball. The players aren't allowed to touch the players on the other team, and none of the robots are permitted to grab the ball (it must remain un-restrained).
A camera is mounted midfield, to give both teams the same video feed. Our entire team is controlled remotely by two computers. One is dedicated to processing the video feed while the other computer does the AI and remote controll of the robots. Unfortunately, they use NT for both because the drivers for their video capture card don't exist yet under Linux.
-- Len