1390667
story
LupeROD writes
"Here's a story that shoulders the responsibility of trying to convince us all that the spectrum wars between 802.11 and Bluetooth are bogus and the truth, be it obscured, is that 802.11 and Bluetooth are really compadres.""
Next Week.. (Score:1, Funny)
Re:Next Week.. (Score:2)
"...removing Microsoft's IPX/SPX compatible protocol and Novell's IPX 32-bit protocol from the dialup adapter bindings resolved the error."
this is not new information (Score:5, Insightful)
This article does not address the _real_ issue that I have heard quite a few people bring up - that the intentions of the technologies and their use cases are orthogonal, but they use the same chunk of bandwidth and the nature of their frequency usage does not play nicely with each other.
I don't know the exact details, but I've used older FHSS and DSSS WLAN technologies as well as 802.11b hardware and I believe it has something to do with the fact that one of Bluetooth or 802.11b is direct-signal and one is frequency-hopping and they therefore tend to obliterate each others signals intermittently. I can't personally testify to this, as I only have experience with 802.11b, but I will tell you that with a 2.4GHz portable phone that my mother bought and the old Proxim Symphony (FHSS if I remember correctly), the interference was a real problem in a practical situation. The 2.4GHz phone could not be used while sitting at the computer desk where the Symphony antenna lived, or the computer would lose connectivity. I finally ditched the wireless network in that apartment and moved to HPNA 2.0, a fabulous solution if your physical configuration doesn't allow good 2.4GHz transmission.
So yes, we would all love to have both Bluetooth and 802.11b work together in perfect harmony and we accept that they don't really compete, and there have been several
Re:this is not new information (Score:2, Insightful)
Nice theory. 802.11B can be either depending on how you set your card and station up, so this couldn't be the only problem. (Though every 802.11B installation I've ever see uses FHSS.)
Not that this invalidates your point that the two still interfere with each other.
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
I would love to read some real results of testing the two together and seeing if there are problems in certain configurations or if there are universal problems, or if my fears are unwarranted. But I do think that points a and b above provide enough justification to ask the question: do Bluetooth and 802.11b play nice with each other or not, and if not how can we make them play nice?
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
If you are doing much 802.11 work, I highly recommend IEEE 802.11 Handboook A Designer's Companion by Bob O'Hara and Al Petrick. It explains all of this is good detail, while still being easy to read and cheap compared to buying the actual standards from IEEE and trying to read them.
Re:this is not new information (Score:5, Informative)
Did you read a different article to the one I read? It does mention it, and describe why it ISN'T an issue, and that both these specifications live quite happily together.
2.4GHz is an open area of bandwidth - you have to expect interference. Home RF, DECT, Bluetooth, 802.11. Hence these technologies are designed to deal with interference, even high interference.
The use of one of the technologies in an area with the other technology only raises the noise level a bit. In fact, interference for each of these technologies is not caused by the other technology being present, but just by high levels of general interference (e.g., using it inside a nuclear reactor).
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
So yes, I understand that theoretically FHSS is designed to make this a non-issue by avoiding bad (used) frequency ranges, I'm asking a question about the reality or practice of using the two together, not about the theory which the author appeals to as an argument by authority. I think I have a valid basis for at least ASKING the question, whether or not it turns out to be a real issue.
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
From (the admittedly small amount of stuff) I know
about these wireless technologies, there are supposed to be built-in checks to deal with this interference, but in practice it would seem like very many vendors are not bothering to implement these and their devices, either at the hardware or driver level just cannot deal with any meaningful amount of interference.
I've personally had to pull my 802.11 network due to proximity of cordless phones and even a logitech wireless mouse/keyboard. Maybe the card vendor (DLINK, fwiw), is at fault -- not the underlying protocols, but in any case it is a very real problem that many people are running into in practice.
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
None of these devices were using Bluetooth. The point I was trying to make is broader than Bluetooth vs 802.11, it seems to be a general lack of worrying about playing-nicely-with-others that device manufacturers using the same frequency bands suffer from. Even if these protocols have methods of dealing with interference (in my experience) they seem not to be implemented very widely.
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
Devices that don't play nice can ruin things for those that do, and some like the X-10 unit that don't play nice assume that it's the only 2.4G device within range.
BTW,don't you just hate pop-under ads like X10.com uses? That kinda thing drives people to ad-blocking software which is bad for everyone in the long-run...
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
What's really needed is a chunk of frequency with a single spec. (protocol) that ALL devices operating on those channels are REQUIRED to adhere to.
Right now, all sorts of crap runs in the 900 and 2.4 ranges all using spectrum as it pleases - a literal garbage dump of protocols. It's a wonder ANYTHING works.
The Article missed out some very important results (Score:1)
I have confirmed this myself on various occasions, and for most clients have proven that 802.11 should be used exclusively. Things may be a little different now we can use the 5Ghz band (and get much higher speeds) for 802.11 and have Bluetooth sitting on 2.4Ghz, but there is not enough of an advantage to do so - it just makes life more difficult as you need to support both forms of comms, and sort out security for them both.
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
Re:this is not new information (Score:2)
Re:this is not new information (Score:3, Informative)
It's at least enough of a real concern that people are studying it in an academic environment and presenting results on it to IEEE forums.
I also found this one, which is substantially more informative and complete:
http://www.wi-fi.com/downloads/Coexistence_Paper_
Re:this is not new information (Score:1)
If that was from 2.4 to 2.499 it would be quite a bandwidth, but if that is from 2.43200 to 2.43201 it ain't that much... Got it?
Well, duh. (Score:1)
Sure, you could have a conflict between the two technologies, especially where the definition of "computer" gets a little vague. But ultimately, they're different sorts of technologies, designed for different uses.
I don't think anybody is seriously going to pursue a home networking solution based on Bluetooth, for instance...
Excellent Resources (Score:5, Informative)
Bluetooth Resource Center [palowireless.com]
A Businessman's Comparison of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi (802.11b) [palowireless.com]
Empirical Study for IEEE 802.11 Aand Bluetooth Interoperability [ieee.org] (PDF)
Wi-Fi will not make Bluetooth obsolete [wallstreetweb.nl]
Re:Excellent Resources (Score:2)
A Businessman's Comparison of Bluetooth and Wi-Fi (802.11b) [pacbell.net] (PDF)
The real competetor (Score:1)
WPAN? (Score:2, Insightful)
Seriously though, the article in question seems to underline the problems with Bluetooth:
The data rate for Bluetooth communications is about one-tenth that of IEEE 802.11
The reach of IEEE 802.11 is about ten times that of Bluetooth technology
Bluetooth uses packets designed specifically for Bluetooth transports
So, we're talking about a networking protocol that is slow, only works in very close proximity, and is an additional, propietary packet structure. Great...
802.11 works for both "WLAN" and "WPAN" applications... why bother addressing two protocols?
Re:WPAN? (Score:3, Insightful)
Bluetooth uses a lot less power than IEEE 802.11. This makes it suitable for use in your next keyboard and mouse, your PDA, etc. You don't want to replace a battery in your keyboard every week! Nor does a keyboard or a mouse need an IP address (yet! :) )
Also, Bluetooth support adds $5 to the cost of a device today. In a years time that will be $2, in two years time $0 as it will be a standard integrated part of PDA CPUs, etc. The chips are small, easy to integrate, etc. 802.11 adds a lot more to the cost of the device ($20+), uses up power (to transmit further) thus requiring more/better batteries (more $$$).
We all know the solution is wireless electricity distribution.... :) Tesla didn't finish his work in this arena though, and nobody has looked at it since or cares.
Re:WPAN? (Score:2, Funny)
Great idea. Um... why are my CDs sparking?
Bluetooth is noncompetitive (Re:WPAN?) (Score:5, Informative)
Bluetooth's advantage is low power, making it suitable as a "cordless" technology. But 802.11 can be run with less power than the legal limit, again invading Bluetooth's turf. That's probably Bluetooth's Achilees Heel -- it's not that much better than 802.11 at what it's better at (low power).
Further putting a nail in Harold B's coffin is the actual Bluetooth spec. I've looked at it and IT STINKS. They have a preposterously complex protocol stack for doing simple things. They literally take the packets, serialize them, put in an RS-232 emulation protocol (control pins & stuff), stick Hayes AT modem commands atop that, and run packets atop THAT! Truly demented. Work done by a committee that had NO FREAKING CLUE what they were doing. That as much as anything explains the lack of interoperability. (802.11, at least, is easy to use, like other 802-family protocols.)
Which is too bad, because a $5 Bluetooth chip with micropower battery drain really would complement 802.11 and other things. But that's not what the corporate sponsors put out.
Re:Bluetooth is noncompetitive (Re:WPAN?) (Score:2)
Thankyou very much. That's all I need to know about Bluetooth.
Re:Bluetooth is noncompetitive (Re:WPAN?) (Score:2)
Why do I want another wireless card in my laptop or on my home network router, if I can stick with the WLAN stuff I have now? And don't quote the "voice" business from the article, I'm not in the habit of talking into my PDA, and voice-over-IP routes better anyway. Sure there might be home-intercom applications, but voice-over-ip at 10x the speed should handle that nicely :-).
Not true, you only need the HCI-layer (Score:2, Informative)
Mikael.
Re:Not true, you only need the HCI-layer (Score:1)
As you said, the only reason you would want to mess with RS-232 is if you had an existing product that you wanted to Bluetooth-enable very easily.
Also: There is no specified physical transport for HCI, but USB and RS-232 are suggestions only.
Re:Bluetooth is noncompetitive (Re:WPAN?) (Score:1)
Well, TI just announced around a week back that the have come up with a BT chipset with a BT controller which costs $5.And if U don't require BT controller,it costs $3.So here goes ur first objection. The problem is that the early movers in the technology spent a whole lot more on the h7w and s/w so they r gonna charge you for that.But as of now, it has become cheap.
>Further putting a nail in Harold B's coffin is >the actual Bluetooth spec. I've looked at it and >IT STINKS. They have a preposterously complex >protocol stack for doing simple things. They >literally take the packets, serialize them, put >in an RS-232 emulation protocol (control pins & >stuff), stick Hayes AT modem commands atop that, >and run packets atop THAT! Truly demented. Work >done by a committee that had NO FREAKING CLUE >what they were doing.
Well dude, I don't know why you said that...trying to sound more knowledgable than U really r about BT I suppose. What you r referring to is RFCOMM, the topmost layer which is required by applications which run on old serial ports, so don't expect it to be faster than a serial port. But for BT aware applications, you don't need to use serial ports and as has been pointed out, U can just use HCI or a combination of HCI and L2CAP.
>That as much as anything explains the lack of >interoperability. (802.11, at least, is easy to >use, like other 802-family protocols.)
Interoperatabiliy is one thing which caused the delay in BT in the first place. But to sort this issue, they have got unplugfests. And besides, if the product is certified to be bluetooth compliant( yes, they have an obligatory certification program), you can be sure that you won't have interop problems.
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
I assume the
The energy isn't directly dangerous to humans like microwaves, but in some situations they can conduct deadly house current through open air and you're as cripsy as if you stuck your hand in a wall socket.
Aside from that, there's quite a few fun stunts you can do with them. You can hold a florescent light in your hand and it will light up. If you're real careful you can even "touch lightning".
A main problems with using them for wireless electricity distribution is that they don't have much range and most of your energy gets broadcast out into space. Oh yeah, and I don't think it would be too healthy for your electronics to get anywhere near them
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Wireless electricity distribution (Tesla) (Score:1)
Re:WPAN? (Score:2)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Re:WPAN? (Score:2)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
The author is basically stating that the techonology *should* be used for simple device connection, and not complex network connections..
I think..
:)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Re:WPAN? (Score:1)
Phony my butt! (Score:1, Redundant)
I personally think Bluetooth is a joke. Remember how USB was supposed to eliminate all the wires to our PCs? You know - one or two USB cables to the box. The monitor and keyboard would have USB ports on them so you could plug other stuff into them, etc, etc. But it hasn't really happened. Yes, USB is making inroads but VERY slowly and NOT because of bandwidth issues. USB 2 will be nice but its not gonna speed up adoption of USB. Bluetooth will be similar. WHo cares if your PDA uses a serial or USB port or wireless to talk with your desktop? Personally? I'd prefer to have wires for security (do I want my contacts and calendar broadcast to to my cubemates?) Thanks, I'll pass. Printers? Maybe - but serisouly, use a thin, easy to route USB cable.
I don't need a pico net on my desktop. I need a smartly designed setup where wires run a minimum distance because defvices can be chained, etc. My mouse should plug into my keyboard (duh!) instead of running along side its wire. (Appel got that one right) My keyboard should be able to plug into my monitor. My camera - go to the monitor or keyboard. Speakers? Whatever. You get the point.
I just don't see the killer apps that will make Bluetooht more than an annoyance.
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:2)
My cordless phone works in 2.4ghz, and it can handle the interference from AirPort. Other technologies should be expected to play nice" and handle interference as well.
This is a well-written article that clearly articulates what needs to be said. Many got caught up in the Bluetooth hype (and many of those same people are now caught up in the 802.11 hype). What they don't understand is these technologies serve fundamentally different needs; that is, they are solutions to different problem domains.
As such, comparing the two and determining one to be better is almost always meaningless - it would be like comparing a car and a bicycle for getting around your school's campus. The car doesn't make much sense because of the overhead of starting it up/shutting it off/parking, and the fact that there are few well-defined area to drive in. The car is made for longer-distance travel. A bicycle, on the other hand, is made to go shorter distance, but it can manuever many more areas. To consider the car or bicycle a better OVERALL transportation solution is meaningless, because it does not speak to the specific needs a user has at a given time.
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:2)
Yes, keyboards with 2 USB ports on them are available everywhere, and for not much money. I have my mouse plugged into my keyboard. You can also go the Microsoft way and pay more for the keyboard and mouse with the same functionality (like I did). But I agree, USB has not done much for getting rid of cables. My mouse does not have a 2 ft cable because it can assume it is plugged into the keyboard, it has a 5ft+ cable so it can be plugged into a computer. That is why PCs now have tonnes of USB ports in them.
Monitors with USB support seem to cost a lot more than without USB support though. There is no good reason for this in my opinion...
To be honest, I don't want to have batteries in my mouse or keyboard, and prefer the cable. For a PDA - it needs to be recharged at some point anyway, so recharge it via USB or Firewire and sync at that time. Scanners and printers are fixed, they don't need wireless capabilities. So the only need for wireless at all is for people with laptops who want to pay $200 for a wireless LAN card instead of $40. Just so they can surf the net in meetings or whatever...
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:1)
I do intend to get a wireless card when I get my laptop, being able to slap the thing down anywhere is great!...
However there are other very good reasons for wireless... If you need to traverse, property that is not yours, a road way or just save money by not having to run wires outdoors; Sometimes wireless can be a much cheaper solution especialy when compaired with the cost of profesional wiring..
(sp:)
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:1)
There is a good reason for this - bandwidth. Sure you can run 127 devices off a USB port, but the data rate to each one isn't going to be great. Certainly if you must get a USB CD burner, you would want to run it off a different USB node to your USB sound system or scanner.
I don't know how many USB ports modern computers have, as opposed to the number of plugs you get - any one know how most computers do 4 usb ports?
Michael
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:1)
e.g., KT266A: 3 controllers, 2 ports / controller = 6 ports, total bandwidth 4.5MBps
However some motherboards actually have an integrated USB hub - was it the ASUS A7V that had this as an option - you could have 7 USB ports off that one (Two controllers in the chipset, 2 ports / controller, one port went to a 4 port hub).
Re:Phony my butt! (Score:1)
I see your point though, but I can see it being useful for more ad hoc, mobile communications...eliminate passwords to access computers...negotiate payment with vending machines...adolescent dating games...transmittal of electronic business cards...keyless entry....
USB is great (Score:2)
USB2 is a mistake; it has all the cost of FireWire without the functionality. It will probably be widely available, but it won't replace FireWire.
Bluetooth covers roughly the same space as USB, but it offers wireless convenience. I hope it will catch on and become cheap: the less wires the better as far as I'm concerned. And if Bluetooth is done right, it should be reasonably secure (certainly a lot more secure than the Logitech wireless numbers people buy right now).
Bluetooth & 802.11b are capable of Co-Existenc (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Bluetooth & 802.11b are capable of Co-Exist (Score:1)
How does the bluetooth protocol handle two bluetooth enable PC//Laptops being with in range of eachother. I see two thing happening, people in apartment sideby side typing on eachothers computers. Or just two of you own PC fighting it out. Also if you go bakc to the appartment... couldn't you just sniff your neighbors' typing in there passwords
(sp:)
Re:Bluetooth & 802.11b are capable of Co-Exist (Score:2, Informative)
If you want to guarantee that you and only you can connect to your cellphone, you go through a process called "pairing". This assures that my cellphone will only talk to MY bluetooth PC Card and not my neighbor's.
It all depends on the level of security you wish to use on your bluetooth devices.
On a related note, 802.11a uses 5.4GHz (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:On a related note, 802.11a uses 5.4GHz (Score:1)
In my opinion the real problem with 802.11a, now that bandwidth and interference is no longer an issue, is range. But perhaps this could be solved by using a microwave amplifier [rfamplifiers.com]. The shorter wavelength of 5.4 GHz means that transmissions in this band have more trouble traveling through walls, floors, furniture and other obstructions, according [nwfusion.com] to Cisco's Ron Seide.
But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:5, Interesting)
In the home there are very few devices that I would want to have on a wireless network that do not have an AC cord attached - so power consumption is not a big issue.
The other problem with Bluetooth is that it tries to define its own stack for everything. The developers appear to be part of some OSI holdout 'IP will go away' group.
On the security side 802.11b screwed it with WEP, only that does not matter that much because you can still use IPSEC. With Bluetooth the security model is homegrown as is the encryption algorithm. If someone wants to make a name for themselves in the crypto world go hack the Bluetooth crypto.
The author of the piece is a well known bluetooth developer. When a group like that suddenly starts saying 'we can work together' it is pretty much an admission that the other side has established a dominant market position that can't be reversed.
If there is genuinely a need for a low power Wireless lan then I would much prefer that someone do 'low power 802.11b' rather than attempt to reinvent the wheel.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
That's not what the piece says, and it's not what I've heard. It's to make everything talk to everything, in a standard, wireless way. More like a replacement for USB than a replacement for Ethrnet.
The author explains why they don't use "IP"-- the devices just aren't powerful enough to implement it. He also mentions that the spec includes PPP.
Who would know more about the purpose and functionality of bluetooth?
If the 802.11b is dominant and sufficient, why would IEEE be working to incorporate Bluetooth into its own standard? I don't know why you care so much about this. If Bluetooth's not useful to you, you don't have to use it.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Hmm, you don't seem to have read the bluetooth web site then. That was their 'big idea' 12 months ago.
If the 802.11b is dominant and sufficient, why would IEEE be working to incorporate Bluetooth into its own standard?
Ever been member of a standards group?
All your statement tells me is that someone in the IEEE has a bluetooth axe of some sort to grind.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Some standards seem to do this. One day they say they'll do X. When people investigate it, and find the standard is a bad way of doing X, then the originators say it's the way to do Y. When people investigate and find it's also a bad way to do Y, then they're told it's the best way to do Z. Repeat until the standard fades away.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Bluetooth does AT LEAST one thingI want to do (Score:3, Informative)
That's one of of many purposes. I for one would be most unhappy to part with my Bluetooth wireless headset. That headset is one of the best investments I've made this year - apart from the bluetooth-enabled phone that I use it with :-)
Bear in mind that Bluetooth and 802.11b have different purposes. Making a wireless LAN with Bluetooth is just a pointless as making an 802.11b enabled phone.
bluetooth wireless headset? (Score:1)
Re:bluetooth wireless headset? (Score:1)
Sort of...
It's an Ericsson HBH-10 Bluetooth headset coupled with an Ericsson R520m triband phone. But the new Sony-Ericsson web-site has been designed by some flash-nut so after a certain point the URL stays the same.
Furthermore, I couldn't find the phone on the US version of the website. That doesn't mean that it is not on the market in the US judging from the Ericsson newsgroup [alt.cellular.ericsson], just that Ericsson won't tell you about it.
So here is the link to the UK website [sonyericssonmobile.com]. The headset is found under accessories.
BTW, nice website you've got.
Re:Bluetooth does AT LEAST one thingI want to do (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, except that an 802.11b enabled phone would effectively be a VoIP cell phone. If the freenets [freenetworks.org] have their way, you could set up your own VoIP gateway back at home on your broadband connection and have your very own cellular phone, sans air time charges. Naturally, it would be a little flaky and a little limited compared to the commercial cell networks, but you did hear me when I said sans air time charages, right? The same goes for contracts.
And besides, all those issues will be solved [sourceforge.net] eventually [sourceforge.net].
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:1)
So when you want to look up a phone number from your laptop, you will need to call your laptop from your phone? And then more phone numbers for your PDA, digital camera, and mp3 player too? How about hands-free headphone? Can we put a GPRS card in the headphone?
> In the home there are very few devices that I
would want to have on a wireless network that
do not have an AC cord attached - so power
consumption is not a big issue
Devices that I'd like to have wireless connection with my computer: mouse, keyboard, PDA, digital camera, mp3 player, gamepad, mic, headphone, remote control.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Actully with SS7 layer switching it is pretty easy to do call forwarding. But you only need a phone number to receive voice calls, not to make 'em.
I would rather mess with that than trying to get my cell phone to make data calls for my laptop. For a start I don't want to be messing with two sets of batteries. On most of the occasions I need to do data communications I have my cell turned off because I am in a meeting. That is if I bother to carry it which I don't most of the time. But having to worry about two wireless links to fall off?
If you want wireless keyboard, Logitech sell one already. I have one in my office, it is OK but I am not too keen on its security. I can see a small advantage to having a standard there, but I would much rather there was something less meglomanical in its scope and had real security not more amateur hour stuff like WEP.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:1)
I could see doing away with the cellphone if something just as portable has access to a GSM/GPRS network, such as a PDA. Then bluetooth headsets become pretty cool. Beware devices such as the trio which have no device-to-device communications - everything goes through the GSM network where it will cost money. I think that palms talking to palms or other devices without the need for infrastructure such as cell towers, will become increasingly important. My own interest is multiplayer games.
Re:But Bluetooth does nothing I want to do (Score:2)
Err hello, what laptop is there that offers Bluetooth today?
GPRS has always been intended to support PCMCIA format plug in cards.
What you call 'reinventing the wheel' I call 'introducing a completely unnecessary technology into the process'.
LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
Gawyn
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
Maybe it's just me, but it feels like lately there's less moderation. Like I read stories and there's a lot less moderated comments, and when I metamoderate I'm starting to get less than 10 comments to metamod. Oh well.
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:3, Informative)
When your computers talk to each other they use a LAN. PAN are for keyboards, mice, printers and that sort of things.
The idea is that you should be able to take your palmtop computer and put it close to a mobile phone, keyboard and printer. Select "connect" (With appropriate security.). Then use the keyboard to download somehting and print it. You could do this today with USB, the idea is to have it act seamlessly with wireless tech.
Compared to LAN's you could say that a LAN is for moving a lot of data (1Mbps +) and a PAN is for doing "magical" things with your equipment.
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
Re:LAN / PAN? (Score:1)
A LAN OTOH, is wired, and is for devices in the same or other rooms, connecting devices such as computers, network printers, and possibly access points to external networks.
It's a matter of scale, in both data transfer and
the distance.
PAN = ~6ft. radius
LAN = House, Office, Small campus
Practial answer -- they can and do work together (Score:3, Informative)
Look at UPS $100MM Project. [cnn.com] (CNN.com story)
Symbol Technologies helped them do it and have been working with the IEEE (pdf file) to make sure 802.11b and Bluetooth don't destroy each other.
But the important point here is that co-existence isn't automatic. You've gotta know what you are doing!
Re:Practial answer -- they can and do work togethe (Score:1)
Also pretty interesting 802.15 task group 1 for WPANs(TM) [ieee802.org]
Two entirely different purposes (Score:3, Informative)
802.11 = local area radio network. Same as Ethernet, but wireless.
Journalists like to pit things against each other to generate drama. It makes their analysis less bland. Too bad that it completely screws up their vision of the market . Bluetooth and 802.11 are filling two entirely different ecological niches. True, there is a little bit of overlap, but they are more complementary than anything.
Re:Two entirely different purposes (Score:1, Informative)
Here is the real picture:
900 MHz - portable phones (land line)
2.4 GHz - wireless ethernet (802.11b), wirefree (and more reliable) substitute for usb cable applications
5.4 GHz - hi-speed wireless ethernet (802.11a), wirefree substitute for firewire (and digital video) applications
low power versions of 802.11b are currently being worked on and will supercede anything developed by bluetooth - and if you really want to talk locally at bluetooth speeds use IR - direct lines of sight are easy to arrange in a PAN (personal area network) and IrDA operates at 4x blue tooth speeds and costs next to nothing
Re:Two entirely different purposes (Score:1)
Exactly - and that is indeed its purpose. Bluetooth was never intended to be a competitor with 802.11a/b. Would you use 802.11b for a wireless headset for a mobile phone? Of course you wouldn't. Bluetooth is perfect for that.
Re:Two entirely different purposes (Score:1)
Maybe you don't.
The reasons I like this headset so much is
Do we really have to support the battery companies that much?
No. The headset contains a rechargeable battery that is charged with the same charger, I use for the phone.
Re:Two entirely different purposes (Score:1)
--
Re:Two entirely different purposes (Score:2)
Actually, it can be done with approximately n cables, using a hub or ring architecture. All n computers on the internet are connected with MUCH less than n^2 cables, for example. That is why ethernet is so popular.
not so different (Score:2)
If Bluetooth manages to live up to its claims of low power consumption and low price compared to 802.11b, then it offers a genuine advantage. If not, it's just another superfluous standard.
As free as the air (Score:3, Interesting)
Or so some would have it. Is anyone else getting sick of fees to do anything marginally useful? The ariwaves are public property and should be used for the public good, not simply to raise revenue for private companies. Whatever "standards" are adopted, let's see to it that the air itself is free.
Wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
In fact, these rules prevent private companies from strong-arming their way into the market just because they have lots of money. Suppose that IBM coveted the same radio spectrum as your favorite community-hippie radio KHIP (yes, I'm guessing this will apply to you, Erris... don't ask me how I know). With the rules in place now, they can't simply start using it in a way that would interfere with your ability to enjoy the Arlo Guthrie marathon currently playing on KHIP.
Wireless bandwidth is a limited resource, and there needs to be a minimal set of rules to regulate its disposition (akin to the Land Title Registry for real estate for example). Without these rules, no one gets any productive use out of it, and you will find there is no "public good" for you to defend.
Got prions, Moo Cow? (Score:1)
The government is only a tool, though I'm sure they enjoy recieving the $500,000 per year a comercial radio liscense costs. Why should I bite into the hideous comercial music troll? Because it's a good example of high fees being used to artificially limit the use of a public resource. How else are they going to raise that kind of money and pay their staffs and buy loudspeakers, advert vans and all the rest of that ugly noise? How else can five publishing companies dominate the music industry? The rules have been bent to benifit a few companies at the public expense.
There really is plenty of bandwith to go around. Check out the 72 empty TV channels on an old tuner dial. Why is it that only a few broadcasters owned by GE, Westinghouse and Disney use it? Do you really think a free market dully regulated for the public interest would have all that redundant commercial noise, but mostly empty spectrum? How many reruns do you need to see before you go buy that soap? Great use, a productive use you say. Barf, I say.
The price of broadcasting and computing equipment has come down to the point that a member supported digital network is possible. What barriers really exist? Most US suburbanites can afford antena towers, directional broadcasting equipment and multiple computers. We've seen plenty of implimentations right here on Slashdot. Trolls, who wish to fill up such broadcasts with adverts could be taken down under a proper leagal framework and pull based networking. People can co-operate to help themselves, without paying absorbadent fees to useless and annoying third parties. The physical devices are cheap and getting cheaper.
Networking bliss seems right arount the corner, but then I hear from folks like you. If such a network does not emerge, it will only be because tellephony, publication and entertainment interests are able to control the airwaves for their own benefit. They do that through government regulation and soothing talk that comforts and leads silly cows to the milking stalls.
Re:Got prions, Moo Cow? (Score:1)
hmm. how about exhorbitant?
Bluetooth and 802.11 (Score:4, Interesting)
Interference (Score:4, Informative)
Fortunately some modifications have been suggested to Bluetooth which should significantly reduce the problems. Let's just hope that these are incorporated into any mass-market bluetooth devices or it doesn't bode well for wireless internet access via 802.11b in some places, for example, coffee shops, where you are also likely to see a lot of mobile phones...
Frequency-hopping systems generally use frequencies from within a wider band but keep jumping between them, so they don't interfere with any one other user for a long period of time. Trouble is, this doesn't tie in very well with ethernet/TCP protocols where performance is seriously impacted by packet loss. (Sure, the packets are resent, but TCP treats packet loss as congestion and slows down).
I love wires!! (Score:2)
You gotta love... (Score:1)
Coexstance (Score:2, Informative)
A few months ago I attended something in NYC called "PC-XPO" I'm sure a bunch of you have heard of it. It's a pretty large event. Many, many big companies come and show off their stuff. IE Compaq, Intel, AMD, etc.
Every station at this place was connected in some shape or form.
I would have to say that there were apprx. 1000-2000 computer systems there at one time. There were a lot of laptops operating wirelessly (802.11b). Also a significant amount of desktops were also working wirelessly.
Interestingly enough, several vendors were showing off their "new" bluetooth technology (like Toshiba, printer companies, etc.)
Point is, I must have brain cancer after spending so many hours there (no, not really). Who knows how many were transmitting across that frequency band. *BUT* they were all working in coexistance, and at very high speeds. There were some pretty smart people who designed the show, so they must have thought of the problems with the two technologies.
Interesting.
Oh, FFS! (Score:2)
What is it about this concept that is difficult?
Combine it... (Score:1)
With technique one can switch a radio circuit from BLuetooth to 802.11 and back without changing hardware. Looks nifty to me...
Visser.
Low Power 802.11? (Score:1)
Re:Bluetooth is dead... (Score:1)
The power level of Bluetooth transmitter is 0dbm. I guess ur body can take a singal of this powerlevel...I am not sure of WLAN though.