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Graphics Software

NVidia NV17M Mobile GPU Preview 149

Posted by timothy from the but-sir-this-is-needed-for-spreadsheets dept.
Mathew Solnik writes: "A year ago nVidia set the laptop world on fire with the release of the GeForce2 Go mobile graphics chipset. Today they push the envelope with the release of the NV17M mobile graphics chipset. Offering unmatched performance in 3D gaming applications, the NV17M promises to put nVidia at the forefront of high end graphics solutions for mobile systems. This GPU is much faster then the Geforce2 Go and is more or less the Geforce3 for laptops. Check out AMDZone for the preview." Pretty incredible how powerful laptops are, even given their lag behind desktop performance. This is far more powerful than any video card I've ever owned.
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NVidia NV17M Mobile GPU Preview More

NVidia NV17M Mobile GPU Preview

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  • I can't wait for some laptop-weilding punk to come and beat my nice desktop's Max Payne framerate. I guess I'm going to have to buy a GF3 just to stay on top of all those c-c-crazy laptop users!

  • Ugh. (Score:4, Troll)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:11PM (#2555796)
    A year ago nVidia set the laptop world on fire with the release of the GeForce2 Go mobile graphics chipset.

    <insert obligatory overheating joke here> Anyway, please pick the submissions a little more carefully. I don't want to read press releases on Slashdot.

    • Re:Ugh. (Score:2, Insightful)

      by terradyn ( 242947 )
      I see slashdot's role as trying to bring technology information to everyone's attention. I keep up with technology but keeping track of all the different news sites can be very time consuming. I'm glad they posted this news bite since I don't regularly visit amdzone. Mobile graphics is something I'm interested in even if you aren't. Keeping in mind the massive audience that slashdot has, I think you should be a little more open to the different articles that show up. I certainly don't think certain articles are useful to me, but know they will be helpful to many others.
      • I think the parent poster was objecting to the way the story read more like an advertisement for nvidia than an unbiased news story.

        Then again, Slashdot's never claimed to be an un-biased source of information.

        But really, he has a point--if I wanted biased hardware news I'd go to Tom's Hardware Guide. Let's keep Slashdot as objective as possible!

    • Re:Ugh. (Score:2, Funny)

      by mikeage ( 119105 )
      A year ago nVidia set the laptop world on fire with the release of the GeForce2 Go mobile graphics chipset.


      nVidia? I thought AMD was setting the world on fire...

      • A year ago nVidia set the laptop world on fire with the release of the GeForce2 Go mobile graphics chipset.

        nVidia? I thought AMD was setting the world on fire...

        ..and Apple, and IBM, and RedHat, and Amazon... Hell, no wonder we have global warming! The planet's on fire from all this innovation!

    • Well spoken. News is one thing, but copying part of a press release and submitting it as a story is just tasteless.

      And let us not forget that the GeForce2Go is an absolute piece of junk that hardly anyone uses. Compare it to a Radeon Mobility and there is no comparison...
      • the GeForce2Go is an absolute piece of junk that hardly anyone uses. Compare it to a Radeon Mobility and there is no comparison...

        Says who? Do you have some links to reviews or benchmarks that back that up?

  • Laptop Gaming (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Rosonowski ( 250492 )
    Personally, Laptop gaming is nice... except for
    -the small screen
    -the cramped keyboard
    -the battery life....

    I just don't see a reason, honestly, for having 'awesome gfx' in a laptop.

    • Re:Laptop Gaming (Score:4, Informative)

      by SquadBoy ( 167263 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:17PM (#2555840) Homepage Journal
      Not so much for gaming but in my last job I talked to many people who wanted "awesome gfx" on their laptops to do presentations using high end (http://www.ptc.com) cad/cam packages. It was just easier in many cases for them to do the presentation on a laptop. That is one of the business reasons for this.
      • SquadBoy wrote:
        Not so much for gaming but in my last job I talked to many people who wanted "awesome gfx" on their laptops to do presentations using high end (http://www.ptc.com) cad/cam packages.

        nVidia's mobile CAD/CAM GPU is the Quadro2 Go (just announced in August). You can get it now in Dell's first-ever CAD/CAM-specific laptop, the Workstation M40 [dell.com].

        -nukebuddy

    • Re:Laptop Gaming (Score:2, Informative)

      by wnknisely ( 51017 )
      I just don't see a reason, honestly, for having 'awesome gfx' in a laptop.

      Maybe not all the time but...

      I've stopped using my desktop machines and moved myself over fulltime to my laptop and docking stations. (I work in three different locations, and it was too much work keeping all three computers in sync with each other.)

      I'm pleased with all that my laptop lets me do - but to tell the truth, the graphics are pretty slow. I usually play 2-D games (like Age of Empires) and I miss my Matrox card on my desktop while I watch the screen "chunk" by on the laptop.

      So... it would be nice to have the power for gaming available if I wanted to use it.

      But I still probably just going to buy a console after Christmas. (I'm waiting to see which one emerges as the favorite (hoping for Gamecube...))

    • Re:Laptop Gaming (Score:3, Interesting)

      by ihatelisp ( 529132 )

      -the small screen

      You can connect the laptop to a monitor, or even a big screen TV in your living room. Moving a laptop to the living room is a lot easier than moving your desktop.

      -the cramped keyboard

      Who plays games with a keyboard? Get a gamepad or a joystick.

      -the battery life....

      It should be easy enough to find a electric outlet if you're indoor. When I carry my laptop on the go, I rarely have to use my battery.

      • Who plays games with a keyboard? Get a gamepad or a joystick.
        Wow, you must suck at Quake or any of its many derivatives. Heck, pretty much the only games you should play with a gamepad/joystick are sport sims or flying games.

        Last, who wants to have to cart around a gamepad/joystick in addition to all of the other crap you have to have to make your laptop work the way you want it to, just so you can play a game?
      • The best computer games use the mouse and keyboard for input. If you want to play games with a gamepad or joystick get a console.

      • Epic Games' Unreal Tournament and id Software's Quake 3 were both ported to various consoles recently. One of the target consoles had a keyboard and a mouse as an option (so you could get Internet access on it). One of the game companies (I think it was Epic, but I could be wrong) decided to implement PC-style keyboard/mouse controls (the usual setup is W/A/S/D for movement, mouse for aiming and shooting) for those who had the right hardware.

        The other (probably id Software, but again, I could be wrong) only included support for the normal console gamepad. I've heard rumours that this was for fairness, because they watched some games of a beta and realised how easy the keyboard and mouse users found it to frag the poor deprived people with gamepads :-)

    • Because I can't afford to own both a laptop for working out of the house/office AND a cutting edge gaming machine for those all night CTF sessions. I can ,however, afford a docking station for my laptop. The problem has been getting fragged before I even know I'm being targetted because my mobile Cirrus Logic chipset only gets 2FPS even when docked because the chipset was never designed for 3D gaming. At least with a mobile Geforce 3 it can turn down the heat/drain when running off of battery and turn on the juice when I'm docked. Best of both worlds.

    • Re:Laptop Gaming (Score:3, Insightful)

      by rlangis ( 534366 )
      Small screen? Are you high? 14.1" is very nearly a 17" CRT! Some high-end laptops are touting a 15" screen even. Max resolution (or should I say 'optimized resolution'?) is somewhere in the 1500x1400 range.

      Cramped keyboard? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't close keys a BOON while gaming? No more having to stretch to reach ctrl-7 - the keys are MUCH closer together.

      Uhm...if you game, and are on battery power... Why aren't you using the power block? Laptops aren't *always* about being on battery power.

      Mobility does not necessarily mean 'cut off from civilization'. If I had spurious amounts of cash, I'd buy a very high-end laptop. 30+ gig HD, GeForce Video, DVD/CD-RW, 15" screen, 256M at minimum... All in one, small, easy to carry package. The wife has a new Inspiron 8100. Everything, and I do mean *everything* is on board. Why NOT use it for gaming? I'd rather pack a 8-lb laptop over to my friend's house and plug in ONE cord (or two; one for power, one for network, if he doesn't have a WAP) than a 30-lb tower, 40+ lb monitor, a pack full of cables and other assorted hardware...

      I might be able to make more room for the Vodka!
      • Ah yes, the Dell Inspiron 8k series. I've got a PIII 1GHz, 512MB PC133 RAM, GeForce2(Go), and a 15" 1600x1200 screen.
        Plus, a builtin DVD/CDRW, 2 USB, IEEE1394, SVideo and normal TV out, 10/100 Ethernet, 40G HD and a decent sound card.
        With the CD builtin, the second media bay holds a second battery. Plenty of time to watch Braveheart on a plane as long as you don't need the floppy drive.
        As for gaming, the GF2Go is nearly as fast as a normal GF2, and it smokes the hell out of my home system right now. 100FPS Quaking. Just hook it up to a real monitor (which it will drive at 2000x1400 if your monitor will handle it), and suddenly a glorious dual-boot Win2k/Linux 7lb wonder machine. Who needs a desktop with this thing?
        Can't wait to get my hands on this GF3Go/NV17M thingy.... :)
    • As a Senior Network dude for a company that specializes in massively multi-user (isn't that getting old fast?) on-line 3D environment technology, I can tell you we're waiting with bated breath for these kinds of developments. Right now we use one of the laptops with the GeForce 2 Go chipset, and we'd love a laptop with this new chipset. More FPS with all the features turned on == better demo == better chance of closing a valuable deal.

      Also, when we developers travel, it helps to be able to work on the environment while on the move. Our system requires quite a powerful system (if you insist on running the various servers and the client all on the same box - *grin*) to allow you to do testing and full blown development on the move.

      So, _you_ might not see the reason for this, but believe me, a lot of companies working with any kind of 3D technologies certainly will, as will developers and people who like to go to a LAN party using something smaller than an SUV (moving my 19" hitachi monitor is a b*tch)....

      Tomb.


    • I just don't see a reason, honestly, for having 'awesome gfx' in a laptop



      Personally, I'd love to be able to take a laptop with "Awesome Graphics" and sound for that matter, to a Lan Party instead of lugging my desktop with me.

    • As a graphics researcher, it is important for me to be able to take demos on the road (and home, while on vacation, etc.) ... And a 15.1" screen really isn't that small although I can always hook up to a larger display or projection display if needed. As for batteries, I only use them while on the airplane. I have been putting off buying a new laptop just because I have been waiting for something more powerful than the GeForce2 Go!
    • Well, quite a few people can't afford two computers. If there is some compelling reason for them to own a laptop (say for instance they do a lot of traveling) then this would make a lot of sense for them. Work on the road, and play at home. Sort of like a high tech mullet =)

      Also there are ways around all of the limitations that you've presented:

      Small Screen - Actually quite a few laptops come with generously sized screens. I can't imagine a laptop with this kind of video card having a tiny screen.

      Cramped Keyboard - So what? How big of a keyboard do you really need? If it's that big of a deal get a docking station with a regular sized keyboard.

      Battery life - A/C adaptors rock your world.

      Anyway, just my two cents...

      Cheers!

      -Pointed Stick
  • when is nVidia going to get to work on the desperate need for graphically accelerated pda's?
    • While it'd be nice to play good 3d games on my Palm, that's far from a priority. I have some nice-looking games running on my Handspring Visor Prism already, including Race Fever (racing game) and Zap!2016 (vertical space shooter), which takes advantage of the full Visor Prism/Palm m505 palette of colors. It looks surprisingly nice, even though it slows down when it tries to render text and moving sprites at the same time.

      Although I assume you were actually kidding, I wouldn't be giving them any ideas. This is just the sort of crazy thing that Nvidia would do to destroy productivity everywhere. And besides, you'd need to wear gloves to deal with the heat, and have extra batteries in a belt pack or something just to power the damn thing.
  • Pardon my ignorance, I do not use laptops on a frequent basis. I hear a lot about great 3D graphics available on new laptops and I even have a friend or two whose replaced their desktop gaming system with a laptop.

    It sounds like the polygon count is high enough, so are laptops a viable gaming platform? (sure would make it easier to attend those LAN parties and smoke pot ... oh wait...)

    - Cheers,
    - RLJ

    • A friend of mine has a P3 1gig + geforce2go, I have a tbird 700 + geforce2gts. His outperforms mine in UT - he plays at 1600*1200, I play 1024*768. Its pretty impressive. The disadvantage of laptops, however, is price - a high-end AMD system can be built for aruond $600 + monitor, whereas a laptop costing that much would most likely be slow and have a terrible quality display.
      • The other big problem is lack of upgrade path. The new nvidia mobile chipset is great, but other than buying a new laptop, there is no way for me to get it in my toshiba.

        As such, your friend has the advantage now, but unless he buys a new laptop in the mean time, come Doom 3 (and other more intense titles) he's going to be left behind. (As I already am with the SavageIX in my Toshiba - it just can't run most modern games, despite the 650Mhz P3)

      • Actually, cost is not that much of an issue anymore. You can get an Inspiron 8100 for $1200! (check out www.techbargains.com) Also, you can get good deals on refurbished laptops (with the same warranty as a new one).

        Getting an LCD screen for a desktop that displays 1280x1024 is $600+. You can save a few hundred by not getting an LCD, but after using them for a while, I've sworn off CRTs (LCD = less eye-strain and crisper image).

        So at that point, there is no difference in cost! The only problem is that your upgrade path is *very* limited... however, at the end of your 3 year warranty (which is excellent), you can just sell that laptop (which will have a better resale in 3 years than today's desktops) and get a new one.

        Personally, after doing the math I decided I didn't need a desktop anymore. Now I browse the web and play Counterstrike from my couch/bed/bathroom ala 802.11b!
    • I use my laptop for just about everything. It gets probably 10x more usage than my desktops do. I have a Toshiba 850Mhz with the GeForce2 Go and it dual boots Linux for development and Win2K for gaming. It is pretty much my ultimate machine. Great soundsystem with headphones, and superb graphics performance. If doing visual development in X, having a 3d accelerator rocks, and I also do play Chromium BSU on there when I need a few minutes of utmost carnage to cool down my mind from a coding session.


      It works absolutely beautiful as a gaming platform and as a development box. I regularly play CounterStrike, Unreal, and Starcraft (real box breaker there..) I'm not sure of any game that is on the market that is not well playable on it.

    • Think "DVD" (Score:4, Informative)

      by mblase ( 200735 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:45PM (#2555976)
      The review/preview makes a big deal about how most laptop DVD players drain the batteries before the movie is entirely over, or very shortly after. Using a dedicated graphics chip to render the animation should improve the battery life by quite a bit.
      • Now that, is a really good point.

        It's high time I can watch the movie I want to watch on the plane ride, and not some cheese-dick 90 minute cookie cutter comedy.

        Cheers,
        -- RLJ

        Note the sarcasm in the plane movie comment, but yes, your point is well taken!

  • Laptop Gaming (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Renraku ( 518261 )
    Gaming on a laptop is unwieldy. Even though my laptop gets perfect FPS in TFC at 1024X768, I'd still much rather play it on my desktop (which also gets perfect frame rates). Even if I felt like installing my keyboard and mouse on my laptop, gaming on it just doesn't seem right. Besides, unless you're rich and have plenty of time to sit and play multiplayer games on your laptop away from home, a desktop is perfect for gaming usually.
    • Not necessarily. I've got a GeForce2 Go in my laptop. Besides the fact that it runs desktop applications a good deal better at 1600x1200, I often play games on it (either Docked or hooked up to an external K/V/M).

      It really is nice to be able to do _everything_ on one computer and to be able to carry that computer where ever you go (e.g., work, home, beach house, etc).
      • I have a Trident CyberBlade 3D in my laptop..gives me great fps in most of the games I've played on it (TFC, CS, Q3, Civ3, Alpha Centauri), and most of the applications I've ran on it (3d Studio, Photoshop, word processers) ran quickly, smoothly, and without undue lag. Its amazing that I spend most of my time in college playing with various games/apps on my laptop, but I couldn't really use it for serious gaming. A game of AC or CS-in-bed was nice once in a while, but it was way too tiring for my tastes. I'm not even going to take it to a LAN party at a friends house pretty soon, I'm going to lug my huge monitor and case up dangerously-steep, short-stepped stairs to secure my place upstairs...because laptops suck for gaming.
        • because laptops suck for gaming
          Not for me. When I'm plugged into my docking station, I get all the conveniences of a PC (e.g., monitor, keyboard, mouse) AND the portability. The only difference between this and most people's gaming rigs is that my HD runs a bit slower, but besides that there's nothing "sucky" about it. That's what I want. Anyways, that's the beauty of the free market. You don't have to like it, as long as there is a sufficient number of people like myself (they are), then it will be made.
          • I was talking about non-docked laptops primarily. Yeah, gaming will work for some people on laptops, I however, don't find it too comfortable/feasable. Granted, there are gamers who love their laptops for gaming and portability, I'm not one of them..portability is great, but a desktop will usually be my first choice. Now, gaming as in emulaters is a different story. Laptops are like, the best solution for us emu freaks.
          • My laptop with a GF2Go is actually a *better* gaming rig than my desktop - the HD is actually faster, because DMA is broken on the desktop due to a defective mobo.
            Mind you, it's only temporary, but said laptop is a pretty damn good gaming rig.
  • I've always hated playing 3D shooters on laptops because the screen seems to blur with fast movement. I would expect high graphics settings to produce lots of heat in that little pressure cooker lap top case too. Would be great if all the peices came together though.
  • Isn't there a huge loss of performance when it comes to the laptops screens? Are there actually screens available that will be able to handle 75hz refresh rate? (The rate needed to display 75 fps).
    FPS look great on paper, but will it actually result in an improvement in the playability?
    • That's true. I think most LCD's are set to 60Hz and you can not change that setting. The LCD's themselves probably don't refresh as fast as the signal going into them. Most LCD's also have a low contrast ratio which means that games with a dark setting (like quake) don't look very good.
    • Think about more complex scenes where framerate drops below 75fps. A faster GPU will probably fix this and that *will* improve playability. Remember, It's not about the number of frames you get when staring at a wall, it's the framerate you get when you're blasting away on an open plane with 50 enemies surrounding you.

      -adnans
    • Remember that most laptops have at least a VGA output as well, so while the advantage may not be so big on the LCD, carrying your laptop to someone that has a spare monitor for a LAN party or such, is still useful, and should let you choose 75Hz (or higher) refresh. Ditto with office presentations - often the laptop is run into a projector that accepts VGA connections, so if you have a need for accelerated 3d in presentations, you're not limited by the LCD's abilities.

      Also as its been said, there is the advantage of having a sustainable performance level for those heavy scenes.

  • I've been waiting forever for a company to come out with notebook video chipset that could actually play games at a decent performance level. This new chipset is probably faster than my TNT2 in my desktop machine. My Toshiba laptop came with some sort of pathetic 2Mb 3D acceleration that actually ran magnitudes slower than the software rendering mode. I'm curious how exactly the chipset will affect power consumption. Does this chip require a fan or some other non passive cooling?
    • They do have a thirst for power, a lot of it too. My dell system uses power at twice it's normal rate when playing graphics intensive games.
  • The availability of a decent GPU in a notebook computer is what sold me on a new notebook versus another desktop. I like being able to just pickup my notebook and walk into a LAN party carrying all my equipment in one hand and still have framerates that equal or best most of the people I play with. It's great.

    The downside is that the GPU likes to use power. Quite a bit too. With my Dell system with just one battery I can get 2 hours playing graphics intensive games. I almost made 4 just typing documents. That's fine for me.

    If I wanted to have longer battery life I wouldn't have gotten a machine that is classified as a desktop replacement.

  • Embeded DRAM (Score:3, Interesting)

    by scottnews ( 237707 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:26PM (#2555900)
    OK if this [tomshardware.com] doesn't make you drool, then you must be at the wrong web site.

    I can see Nvidia's next generation GPU to have embeded DRAM. This one is soo close.
    • sorry about hte spelling

    • Re:Embeded DRAM (Score:2, Informative)

      by 10Ghz ( 453478 )
      That ain't eDRAM. eDRAM the memory and core logic is located inside the same chip. Key advantage being that you can use ultra-wide memory-buses, giving you loads of bandwidth.

      What NVIDIA is doing here is simply to put the memory-chip in to the same die as the core is, but they are not one and the same chip, they seem to be separate. And the memory-bus is your typical 128bit-variety.

    • I can see Nvidia's next generation GPU to have embeded DRAM. This one is soo close.
      Speaking of which, whatever happened to Bitboys and their Glaze3D part which was supposed to revolutionize the graphics market by introducing embedded DRAM?

  • great and LCD refresh rates ? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by johnjones ( 14274 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:27PM (#2555905) Homepage Journal
    I never saw the point myself

    great you can mangle triangles and blit them to the screen fast

    OR

    have 2 hours more working time

    now on a trip on a train which would you rather have

    intel have finally woken up to power with transmeta breathing down their backs and you guys want to waste it useing these cards.

    hell Xscale / MIPS with a LCD controller on chip is way for me

    regards

    john jones
    • You can still buy THOSE machines. It's not like all notebooks are power hungry these days. There are a range of different notebooks that are available. You can get your high battery life business machine, or you can get your mobile gaming machine. People who buy these desktop replacements 'should' be aware that they are going to use more juice. That is perfectly acceptable. There has to be trade offs someplace.

      On a train? I would still take my gaming machine with. I would just bring an extra battery.
    • Or you could realize that people plug laptops in just as much as they run on batteries. Many people have them because they need the same computer at home that they use at work. Universal broadband will help but that's not the case quite yet. As for 3D, a laptop like this is essential for 3D artists and anyone who plays games on their computer.
    • I've been on trains with power plugs. They're geared to road-warriors. Just like some types of planes (well, perhaps 9/11 may have affected this .... haven't flown since).

      Low power + high graphics frame rates with full textures, shaders, and the whole nine-yards would be great. Given that right now it is an either or scenario, your choice of laptop has to be based off need. Don't get one of these power-consumptive laptops if your first concern is long battery life.

      OTOH, if you like some portability and some battery life (you have a window of battery life) along with the capability to take powerful 3D with you, these laptops are the way to go.

      Eventually, these and the low power laptops will maybe merge and won't that be a happy moment for all of us? :)

    • Re:great and LCD refresh rates ? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Tuesday November 13, 2001 @12:24AM (#2557066)
      Some things:

      1) When the chip is working with 2d, it does not consume max power. Like all processors consumption is based on how hard it is working. Now granted, something like this won't be as low power as say a Rage Mobility, it still has sufficiently low drain to work in a laptop.

      2) The target kind of laptops for this are, by their nature, large high drain devices. They probably have large LCDs (15"), fast processors (900mhz+) lots of ram and so on. Computers like that also tend to pack lots of battery power. We have some new Dell C810s at work with the GeForce 2 Go and when you stick both battries in they can really last a long time, even when doing 3d work.

      3) Some people would rather have a single system than a desktop and a laptop. In that case, having powerful grapics can be important. For some, work requires it, and for others, it games. And please, don't give me any shit about game on PCs or that you ought to own a console or the like. Having fun is important and some of us really like PC games.

      I get a little sick of people whining about the power consumption of digital devices in general. Yes, companies should strive to make devices that minimize power drain, and believe it or not by and large they do, however there are legimate reasons to want to own high drain devices with lots of silicon. If a tiny MIPS computer works for you, fine, use it, but please dont' assume that the rest of us don't have legitmate uses for beefier systems. That use may well just be to amuse ourselves, but that is a perfectly good use.
    • >>great you can mangle triangles and blit them to the screen fast

      what are you talking about?

      blit: the process of transferring a bitmap to a display surface via a blitter

      Just because you can use some fancy term doesn't mean that you know what your talking about.

      blitting is primarily a 2D process. The NV17M is a 3D accelerator. Geez get your poop straight.

      The bottom line is nVidia makes the best solutions for hardcore graphics on the desktop and laptops.

      You don't see the point! You'd rather have 2 hours more working time!

      Well there's people out there that would like 2 hours more of CounterStrike time.

      And obviously there is a market for chips like these out there. Or else nVidia would have stopped with the Go.

      You want to talk about transmeta. Well, I didn't see them at Siggraph this year. The premier computer graphics conference.

      nVidia kicked 3dfx and other's asses by putting out kick ass products that people want to buy.

      They did it by embracing OpenGL when everybody else was drooling over M$'s Direct3D.

      They did it by putting out vey good Linux drivers when other companies didn't give a crap.

      They did it by pushing the envelope. And they are doing it again by pretty much bringing the Geforce3 to the laptop.

      The only reason you call it waste is because you don't need the 3D accelerator. You'd rather be working away on the train.

      SL
    • There's a huge requirement for these where people have to demonstrate graphically intensive applications - like games :-)

      The company I work for had a computer custom built into an aluminium suit-case - a 'luggable' - so that we'd have decent graphics cards for demonstrating our products. A laptop is far far easier to transport, and far cheaper - and generally you can plug in somewhere when doing a presentation!

  • time for an upgrade.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Marcus Brody ( 320463 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:33PM (#2555925) Homepage
    Yes, this is a silly comparison:

    NV17M Marcus' home PC
    _____________________________
    350MHz 200MHz
    64MB 32MB
    2048*1536 640*320
    1 square inch 2 square feet

    Erm. Quake? Whats that....

  • Flawed numbers? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jeremy f ( 48588 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:37PM (#2555943) Homepage
    I'm beginning to doubt the performance ratings. The 17M rates at 40.9 fps for Max Payne at 1024x768x16, and 79.5 fps for Q3 at 1024x768x32. It also says for relative performance that in Q3, the 17M outperforms the GF2Go by 5x, and in Max Payne by 3.5x. I know for a fact that this cannot be the case, because I have an Inspiron 8000.

    Here are the benchmarks for my system:

    Q3 1024x768x32: 49.7. High Detail.
    Max Payne 1024x768x16: (no FPS display, definitely playable, I'd say ~24). Max Detail.

    The system is a 1ghz/256M running Windows 2000. Unless NVidia's benchmarks were done on say, a 500mhz laptop, I'd imagine much better performance than what they'd note; especially nothing that NONE of the benchmarks broke the 100 fps mark, when according to my numbers, they should have creamed it (Q3 1024 at 5X GF2 should have been 250 fps, and Max Payne should have been near 90).
    • you havent enabled 4x AA (also called quincux(sp?)) on your laptop. re-run it after enabling that in your laptop and see how crap you numbers really are. they should drop significantly.
    • I'd moderate this up if I could! It's completely true.

      I also have an I8K with a G2Go. And I get the same FPS scores as mentioned above. I'm a big fan of nVidia, but I think they've pulled out the hype machine a little to much on this one.
    • A lot of frame rate counts are also capped... unless you get into the driver and do some tweaking. Using a simple locale in our system and a low res with a low colour depth and few textures, I'm able to get some stupidly high frame rate for my GeForce 2 GTS (in the hundreds of FPS)... now if the tweak in the driver is turned off, that'd max at 75 or 85 (whatever the refresh rate was set to). Just something to beware when comparing frame rates. There is a setting (something to do with coolBits) that you need to set in your driver's config in the registry (on Windoze boxes) that'll let you uncouple frame-rate from the refresh rate (some versions of the drivers will give you a GUI road to this same setting). Tomb.
    • Look at the article again - all speed comparisons and quoted framerates are with anti-aliasing enabled.

      That's why the scores seem low, and that's also why there's such a dramatic improvement over the GF2Go and Mobile Radeon 7500.

      The NV17M does multi-sampled AA, which one texture lookup per pixel, instead of one texture lookup per sample. This gives considerably greater performance, but the quality of the texture filtering is not as high. The GF2Go and Mobile Radeon 7500 both use supersampling, which uses the slower (but arguably higher quality) method.

  • More and more companies are now purchasing laptops as the main machine instead of desktops. Granted, nobody should be playing FPS games at work. There are other valid uses as well.

    If there is an option to turn off sections of the GPU to suit truly mobile tasks, this could please quite a few.

    -FlynnMP3
    #include
  • What is this, a freakin press release? Taken directly from the marketroid website?

    Don't nobody say there's no real humor on the web anymore. Just read Slashdot. No, not the posts, silly, the articles. -moof

  • fire (Score:2, Funny)

    by Reikk ( 534266 )
    Please. Enough with laptops on fire. I cannot stand any more heat - my dell has already burnt the hair off my balls. Thank you, Reikk

  • My personnal wishlist... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tcc ( 140386 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @06:54PM (#2556010) Homepage Journal
    EVERYTHING is there in a laptop to replace an average workstation, but there's one thing I'd really like for overall performance boost... if you can stick a high power processor, high resolution LCD panel with super brightness, and have a 3d GPU in the lot, how about IDE raid, imagine having 2x48GB striped under your laptop, a second drive wouldn't take that much more volume (ok forget about the ultrathin or small laptops, we're talking about a nice workstation replacement here :)) I'd like booting off a laptop faster... IDE RAID would be the best solution for speed increase in that area. The drawback of course would be doubling the chance of losing data but then again you could also put mirroring or striping as options (so mirroring would actually ensure data integrity from disk drive failure).

    I am using a Dell 8100 notebook 512MB ram, external 80GB firewire drive for dumping data that I won't access too often, 48GB 2.5" drive, overall my rating is 9/10, it ROCKS, the IDE raid thing would really be welcomed but I know it's not a mainsream request, unfortunately.
    • Laptop hard drives are slow for a reason. They are smaller and use lower power than desktop drives. If you would prefer something that is larger and faster than the current laptop setup, the first thing you should request would be laptop hard drives that are more like desktop hard drives. I'm sure that your speed increase would be more heat/size/cost effective that way than with IDE RAID. The hard drive in a laptop is one of the biggest power drains. Two drives would be much worse.

      Hrm... perhaps. I wonder if reading 1MB from 2 disks uses a whole lot more juice than reading 2MB from 1 disk. The two disk option would definitely cost something in power, just because of the doubled seek costs, but iduno. Maybe it's not such a bad idea. Anybody with actual knowledge have any revelations?
      • Elwood P Dowd wrote:
        The hard drive in a laptop is one of the biggest power drains.

        Laptop drives draw about 2 watts if you are using them almost constantly -- less if not. The LCD screen draw 4 - 10 watts.

        -nukebuddy
    • I was looking at the new Dell laptops just the other day. The high end models (1600x1280 LCD and P3-1.13GHz mmmmm), have 3 drive bays, 1 CD or DVD, 1 HDD, and the 3rd can be used for: DVD-R Superdrive, CD-RW, 2nd HDD or a second battery. I don't see any reason why you couldn't run software RAID on 2 48GB drives on it.

  • ATi has a new chip too... (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ATI Unveils MOBILITY FIRE GL 7800
    World's fastest and most powerful mobile workstation GPU designed for 3D animation and CAD/CAM

    Read it here: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011112/122494_1.html
  • I don't own a desktop system anymore. Don't think I'll ever get one again, either. But I've had just about enough of "[1337] k001b0y" plastering me with the AWP just because my software renderer decided "this would be a great time to drop the fps to 2".

    So i applaud nVidia for this initiative. Here's to hoping that ATI can counter with an even better card :)


  • The review states that NVidia has vendors lined up. Yeah, right. Who are they, and why aren't they listed in plain view on the website? The problem with the GeForce2 Go right now is that nobody bloody sells it. Toshiba, yeah, but with dinky 1024 x 768 screens. Dell, yeah, but they're, like, Dell, and their hardware reliability is questionable. I acknowledge that high performance mobile graphics is a small niche market, but it's unfortunate to have so few choices when shopping for this type of device. And it's only gonna be worse for the next gen graphics chipset.

    Now, if IBM would offer me a PIII-M laptop with 1600 x 1200 display and a GeForce 2 Go (or one of these NV17M chips), I would happily pay for it. It would be very beneficial to me.

    sigh...
    • The problem with the GeForce2 Go right now is that nobody bloody sells it. Toshiba, yeah, but with dinky 1024 x 768 screens. Dell, yeah, but they're, like, Dell, and their hardware reliability is questionable

      Not in my experience (Now up approx 500 Dell PC's installed) Dell hardware is very reliable. It's their GeForce2Go drivers that could do with some attention. I've got 3 Dell 8100 here in the office, All three are absolutely brilliant, except mine has XP. And the video driver keeps forcing XP to crash. I had to install a BETA driver before the damn thing worked right. Now it is, I'm very happy. Not the first time I've had problems with Dell drivers, especially on newly released hardware.

      All in all, the GeForce2Go works incredibly well and so does the 8100. I rarely if ever need to use anything else and it's worth every cent.
  • I was a pretty hard core gamer before this thing called work creeped up! :)

    Anyway, are there really any hard core gamers out there that would be playing on a laptop?! I know I wouldn't. I know someone who currently only owns a laptop and he plays his Counter-Strike at work.

    If I owned a laptop, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be doing my gaming on it. I would want a laptop for doing work while on the road. Besides, I'd want the extra battery life from using a non-too-powerful GPU over the 3D capabilities any day!

    Anyways ... my $0.02CDN (about $0.000012USD)

  • Apple (Score:1)

    by XBL ( 305578 )
    I hope it finds its way into the PowerBook sometime soon.
  • Look at the stock chart over the past 3 months... totally the wrong direction compared to the NASDAQ :) http://quotes.nasdaq.com/quote.dll?chart=1&page=ch arting&mode=basics&symbol=NVDA%60&selected=NVDA%60 &elem=0 [nasdaq]
  • The cool thing about this announcement is that it probably means we will start to see NVIDIA's technology in smaller/lighter notebooks. The -2Go chips were great, but OEMs only packaged them in monstrous, heavy, machines like the Dell 8100. I assume this new chip is something like the low-end "MX" series, so it should be available in lighter notebooks (if not in ultralights).

    Finally I will get both my wishes - an easily portable notebook, with graphics hardware by the only company that can engineer a good graphics system. (news flash: ATI doesn't count. Their driver developers couldn't program themselves out of a cardboard box)
  • Hi,

    I know I'm going to get modded down of this, but why do linux users like Nvidia products, if there is only closed binary support for them??

    That defeats the entire purpose of using an open source and free Operating system. If I wanted to use CSS drivers, I would have stuck to Windows and had real support from Nvidia.

    Just makes me wonder, thats all

    Sunny Dubey

    • It depends completely on why an individual chooses to use a Linux environment (with the GNU utils or otherwise). I mean, there are a variety of reasons people may use Linux, beyond the source licensing. Free software, maintained by a distributed group of people is definitely a draw.

      Apparently having a single closed-source binary module defeats the open-source nature of the kernel and all the available software that is under an open source license. I personally have played with the source of a lot of programs, but have never felt the need to hack my graphics driver. Apparently I should be using some other platform, according to your logic.
  • cat /proc/sys/kernel/tainted if you have an nvidia kernel module loaded.
  • Hmmm interesting to see that Nvidia have updated their GeForce2Go. What I am more surprised is how little attention ATi's Mobility Radeon has had.

    From what I can gather ATi had not already kicked Nvidia's teeth in already but NV17M only *just* matches its performance!

    http://www.rage3d.com/reviews/hardware/mobility7 50 0/
    http://srd.yahoo.com/goo/Ati+Mobility+Radeon/2/* ht tp://www.sourcemagazine.com/csm/Forum3/HTML/000048 .html

    I will be buying a new laptop come January and will probably buy another Dell. Indeed they seem to be the only manufacturer that offers these high performance chipsets. Well except for Toshiba I think.

    So any ideas on which which one to buy?

    Regards,

    Po
    • Err....

      Something went nuts with cut and paste

      http://www.rage3d.com/reviews/hardware/mobility7 50 0/

      and

      http://www.sourcemagazine.com/csm/Forum3/HTML/00 04 8.html

      Po
  • The mobile Radeon 7500 was announced some time ago, and it made the GF2 Go look like crap too (not that hard really).

    Everyone gets hyped that this thing comes out, but ATI has already beat them to it, it offers similar features. I've heard that ATI's powersaving features are far more advanced too.

    Its also funny that they say that NVidia offers unmatched DVD playback, because they've always been awful at that.

    The benchmarks for the mobile 7500 were incredible, and NVidia is right out lying about their numbers, there is no way around that. It makes the Go look faster than the 7500, when the mobile 7500 was far far faster than a standard 64 meg radeon, and very close to a full blown Radeon7500.

    I believe ATI is also packing 32 or 16 megs of DDR with their mobile chip, giving the laptop manufacturer the option to add more, making it more cost effective. So all these new features, aren't new.
  • I've been wanting to upgrade my aging Toshiba Satellite, but so far every Athlon notebook I've found uses some lame graphics chip rather than nVidia or ATI Radeon series chips. And no SXGA+ or UXGA res screens either. Has anyone found one? Maybe we'll see them early next year when the 130nm Mobile Athlons come out?

    Maybe Micron [micronpc.com] will build one. Their new Athlon/nForce desktops look sweet, definite Dell-killers.

  • Obsolete in 1 hour!!! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Magus311X ( 5823 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @08:41PM (#2556450)
    Today my Dell Inspiron 8100 came in. PIII 1GHz-M, 384M memory, 30G disk, 8X DVD, 15.1" Super XGA+ screen that does 1440x1050, and a 32M DDR GeForce 2 Go.

    I thought I was king of the world. So I throw it on my LAN and go to slashdot...

    ... to see the upcoming GeForce3 Go be announced.

    Noooooooooooooooooooooo!!! It's not fair! ;*(
    -----
  • If it is anything like the GeForce 2 Go, it'll be 6 months before who see a laptop with this in it, and I will actually bet it's longers. The Turn around time with laptops and new hardware is longer, because laptops are tpyically used by business users, not gamers, and they simply do not purchase a new laptop every year. I think NVidia will find that their 6 month turn around time on new products won't work quite as well. I hope I'm wrong though, even though this makes my GeForce 2 Go outdated! :-) I'll give them this though, if it's as fast as the specs make it seem: just damn! The GeForce 2 Go is unbelievably fast for a laptop, and it sounds like they have some dvd decoder functions built-in, which is something most laptops need but lack, especially if one could output the dvd playing to the tv-out independant of the LCD output (possible, but not the greatest method, via twinview.)

  • Obligatory Open Source argument... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Speare ( 84249 ) on Monday November 12, 2001 @09:12PM (#2556569) Homepage Journal

    nVidia supplies source code only for the 2D functionality on their cards to date, apparently because their technology draws on some patent-encumbered features from third parties (rumored SGI). nVidia flatly refuses (and indeed cannot) release the specifications to Open Source developers.

    nVidia supplies a binary precompiled OpenGL-accelerated driver for Linux, or rather several varieties for different kernel configurations. However, those precompiled drivers are (1) not supported by some distributions (e.g., Red Hat) because they can't be properly debugged, fixed or improved by distribution-producing companies, and (2) are unstable for some people running Linux for unknown reasons. A badly written kernel plugin can wreak plenty havoc on the whole running system, with little protection.

    Matrox and ATi are more supportive of the Open Source world, because they are in control of their own technologies and see the benefit of many developers collaborating on their drivers. DRI support can move forward to get fast and safe access to video hardware without endangering the safety or security of the rest of the machine.

    One of the Windows technologies' biggest problem is the unexplained BSoD. Death from nowhere with little explanation. The major cause of BSoDs is poorly written device drivers which run in an unprotected ring zero environment. One bad instruction can ruin your whole machine's state. Is this what we want for the Linux environment? Are we going to keep adding unprotected, unknown and undebuggable closed source solutions into the Linux kernel, adding more and more sources of kernel lockups? Do we need to start talking about a PSoD (Penguin Screen of Death)?

    I'm looking forward to the upcoming drivers for new ATi Radeon cards, myself. Open Source DRI/DRM drivers and solid 2D and 3D performance. How about you?

    • I haven't checked recently, but can anyone attest to the speed and stability of the new ATi drivers for Linux? I know they've made leaps and bounds beyond what I've seen in the past, but from this post it seems like the new drivers are "upcoming."

      ATi's drivers for Windows have recently been a lot better, but in recent memory they've been pretty dodgy. My roommate has a well-utilized Radeon, and he's come across quite a few driver issues. Most have been resolved by this point, but it's taken a while.

      Yes, ideally these issues would be fixed quickly with an open source driver. But, would they? Some drivers tend to fall by the wayside, or end up with just as many crashes as so-called "unprotected, unknown and undebuggable closed source solutions."

      I'm looking forward to ATi's new drivers, but I'm not so sure how quickly they'll make their appearance, or if they'll be on par with NVidia's current "unstable" drivers.

    • Nvidia may not play by the RMS rules of Open Source but they do support it. The reason they don't use the standard interfaces is because they have a unified driver on i386 systems. (Linux, Windows 9x & NT, and I think beos all use the same driver, they just have a wrapper around it to interact with the OS) Do a google for the FreeBSD nvidia driver, it failed because of an incompatibility but they were supposedly very supportive of it.

      And yes it's unstable but they give very good support. I got a reply from them in 2 days. On a sunday.

  • I've got a Dell 5000 (factory recalled battery still hasn't blown up) and I have to say that I love it. I play CS and UT both with moderate detail, CS at 640x480 and UT at 800x600 and I can get about 32 to 35 fps (unless someone throws a smoke grenade). All I have is an ATI Rage Mobility with 8MB but its great already.

    Point being, I use it for everything. Gaming is just part of it. I have a 15.1 inch screen and I use it for business presentations. I go to University and I bring it with me so I can work in the library. We have stations everywhere so I can plug in power and ethernet or serial. Seriously, its great being able to put down 2-3 grand (CANADIAN!) and get something that can do that and still have power left over for some 3D design (only tried Bryce 4 so far, but it works OK) I've got a PIII 750 with 128 mb RAM and 12 GB of drive space. Oh, and I just used it at a LAN party two days ago.

  • The GeForce 3 has programmable vertex shader machinery that nobody uses yet. That's not in the GeForce 2 or NForce. Unless you're using that stuff, the GeForce 3 is roughly the same speed as the GeForce 2. The GeForce 3 has a much higher transistor count, reflecting the more complex pipeline.

    Since the XBox uses a GeForce 3 part, we should see games that use the vertex shader hardware real soon now.

  • How many PC's ship with the GeForce 3 as the base configuration (unlike its cheaprer cousin the MX)? The trouble is that the GeForce 3 with its power and expense is an ideal after-market card for those who want it.

    However, portables don't have that option. Assuming that the price for the NV17M is anything like the GeForce 3 (and nVidia will have real problems with its vendors if it doesn't), you're looking at adding a few hundred dollars to the price of every portable for power that only a fraction of the users will want.

    I can't see many manufacturers choosing this chip. I wonder what nVidia was thinking?
  • I work on the Sledgehammer Linux port, so I regularly compile binutils, gcc, glibc, kernel, X and other stuff on my machines. Besides compiling, I use the machines to run the simulator for the chip. I'd say I stress my machines more than most people.

    I have a Ghz Athlon workstation, a Dell 850 MHz Pentium 3 based Inspiron 8000 and a GHz Mobile Athlon based Compaq 1200Z.

    My workstation is between two or three times faster than both laptops. Now, how can that be when they have somewhat comparable cpus? Because of a fact that a faster cpu or graphics card can't change: The I/O subsystem in a laptop is so horrible that it's beyond comparison with our workstation I/O. And, have in mind that the x86 PCs have the worst I/O performance of all architectures. Whenever I fire up the simulator, then the laptops are pretty fast, because that is almost exclusively cpu bound. Compiling or other more full-system stuff makes the laptops crawl.

    I'd say to every gamer or hacker out there: Don't buy a laptop because you think it's a desktop replacement. The overall system performance on them sucks and you will be disappointed. By a laptop if you need a mobile computer.

    Bo Thorsen,
    SuSE Labs.

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