New Transgaming WineX Release 318
Thunderbird writes "Transgaming released a new version of WineX. Winex allows you to run x86 windows games and programs on x86 Linux. It includes allmost full directx support (up to 7 including direct3d). " I'm still skeptical of their business model, but I subscribed anyway in the hopes that The Sims and its expansion packs will work soon. They look legit, although I only own 2 windows program (The Sims, Diablo 2, and their expansion packs)
so I don't have much to test it on.
The Sims (Score:1)
"MandrakeSoft and TransGaming Bring Gaming to the Linux Desktop"
Re:The Sims (Score:1)
Look at the compatibility list! (Score:3, Interesting)
Nonrandom Link [cmu.edu]
Re:The Sims (Score:3, Informative)
So if you own the sims for windows and want it to run on linux, you're SOL unless you want to shell out another 70 or 90 dollars.
Macrovision ??? (Score:3, Flamebait)
At least linux programmers will be able to protect their work from piracy and stop the widespread copying of cd containing GPL software.
That's a big hope for the hole FSF foundation which will be able to maintain its value and retribute its shareholders.
Re:Macrovision ??? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the page (about half way down):
So there you have it. They probably had to license SafeDisc so the could properly run protected software.
Don't feel bad, these mistakes happen to all of us. ^_^
(BTW: since I'm on the subject of corrections, the hole your thinking of is 'whole' as in everything, not hole as in an empty space. Hehe.)
Re:Macrovision ??? (Score:2)
Yes. Further to that, I wonder how it's being distributed, because Transgaming claim that:
[transgaming.com]Any idea if the Macrovision Safedisc code is in there? (I know, I know, I'll find out myself tonight).
Re:Macrovision ??? (Score:3, Informative)
Following your link the very first sentence reads:
The source code to TransGaming WineX (minus copy protection related code, for now) is available through VA Linux's SourceForge website.
Re:Macrovision ??? (Score:2)
Neat! I posted a cut-and-paste of that sentence, so Transgaming have updated it very rapidly. Good for them.
Re:Macrovision ??? (Score:5, Informative)
-Gav
--
Gavriel State, CEO
TransGaming Technologies Inc.
gav@transgaming.com
http://www.transgaming.com
Thats not why (Score:2)
I'm Subscribed, I will tell you why they licensed safedisk.
Windows games use safedisk, in order to run them you need Safe Disk for Linux.
Also, about shareholders, If this style economy works, You'll be able to subcribe to KDE, to Gnome, to any project you want and essentially you'd become like a share holder.
So I suggest you do you part, Subscribe to transgaming, its only $5 a month so I know you can afford it, even if you dont play games, if you want Linux to be successful, do your part. If you cannot contribute code, stop being a greedy bastard and subscribe.
TO programmers contributing code to actual open source projects, How would you all like to get paid for this? The only way is to subscribe to transgaming, prove to the world that people can make money from open source, and in the future you may be able to make money in the same way.
Wolfenstein (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Wolfenstein (Score:2)
Also, single player has been disabled: "This release doesn't contain the single player binaries of the game. The menu command to switch to single player is present in the interface, but it is completely inoperant."
Forget it. Maybe when single player is activated I'll go for it. I don't want my gaming to depend on fools whose "low pings only" servers won't accept a 50 ping..
Re:Wolfenstein (Wait for the Boxed Linux Version) (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Wolfenstein (Wait for the Boxed Linux Version) (Score:2, Informative)
True supporters support both (Score:2)
Which means you buy Linux games AND you subscribe to transgaming.
Supporting transgaming supports alot more than games, its also supporting a new open source economy which could be used for alot of other projects.
Re:Wolfenstein (Wait for the Boxed Linux Version) (Score:2, Insightful)
it was half-assed attempt at something no one really cared about
I think it's much better to buy a game once and be able to play it both platforms
Re:Wolfenstein (Wait for the Boxed Linux Version) (Score:4, Informative)
What about people who (Score:2)
Who have the Windows version and who dont want to buy the same Game TWICE!
Think about that.
Theres a market for Wolfenstien, that Market is to Linux users of today. The Transgaming Market is for Linux users of tomorrow, who have a windows game and dont have the money to pay twice.
I hate to say it.... (Score:3, Insightful)
This is about the only game that I want a windows box for at the moment.
Re:I hate to say it.... (Score:1)
Re:I hate to say it.... (Score:2, Informative)
For the time being at least Electronic Boutique will refund you fully and with no-questions-asked if you return a game within 10 days. It doesn't even matter if it's opened.
Re:I hate to say it.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I hate to say it.... (Score:2)
Re:I hate to say it.... (Score:2)
WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:5, Informative)
In a nutshell: WINEX potentially gets more Windows people into Linux where they can use WINEX as a crutch to play the games they need while using a "better" operating system. (good) However, WINEX also promotes the use of Windows software and insulates programmers from cross-platform considerations. (bad)
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:5, Insightful)
Just what cross platform considerations are you refering to--in regards to games? The buying public has spoken and it has said that Linux games do not sell at retail. Even id, the last holdout for retail Linux titles decided after Quake3:TA that retail Linux games sales were not a viable proposition.
Game developers are not being insulated from cross platform considerations. They don't really have any to be insulated from. For good or bad MS has provided the necessary tools to make Windows a viable gaming platform. Linux isn't at the same level. Buying a Windows game and playing it on WineX is not casting a vote against retail Linux games, nor is it paying the enemy in some OS holy war. It's the only way people will be able to play 1st run titles on Linux. That will not change in the foreseable future. Whether or not the developer gets money from a Windows game sale or a Linux game sale doesn't matter. The developer still gets money and the customer gets a product they want. That should be all that matters.
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:5, Insightful)
So which is better, a hard reboot of the machine in Windows, or a process restart on a still running, and stable OS in Linux? I'm pretty sure restarting a process is a lot nicer on the expensive hardware you've purchased to run that nifty new 3d game, than killing power to that hardware unexpectedly because one process killed the entire OS.
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:2)
What "automated tool" are you refering to? The viablity of Windows as a gaming platform goes much beyond the DirectX APIs. It's far more friendly to end users. You don't have to compile your video card drivers, window managers, and sound card drivers. You don't have to recompile your kernel to get joystick support (or, quite possibly, your video card and sound card drivers to work), you don't have to know about RPMs, configure, or make files. You just have to insert the CD and click "Install" from the little window that appears.
Even in the dark ages of DOS gaming, where you had games that shipped with upwards of 50 different video card drivers and almost as many sound card drivers you didn't have to recompile your OS, application, or drivers to get it all to work. Linux, for all of it's power, is still very unfriendly to end users. Until it becomes as easy as Windows for the end user it will not make inroads onto the desktop in appreciable numbers.
Without those installed desktop #s then game companies will not see a reason to do native Linux games to be sold at retail. Even if they did produce the games the retailers will still balk at having to waste shelf space on Linux games. The profit margins for the games will be non-existant.
Linux gaming is not a profitable business at the moment. Linux users can either suck it up and use WineX to play the games that interest them, dual boot Windows, or spend their time addressing the shortcomings of Linux to make it more readily accessible to end users in the hopes of increasing desktop installations.
Id fucked up. (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember BeOS 4.5, if you purchased that you got both the X86 & PPC versions in the box.
Same again flr Claris Works, if you purchased that you got both the Win16 & Mac Classic versions in the same box.
Gobe's now doing it to, they are porting their BeOS office suite to Windows & Linux. If you buy the boxed version you will get all 3 versions in the box.
That's what Id should have done.
Stores hat having to stock multiple versions of the same application. By using cross-platform bundles stores don't have that problem
Re:Id fucked up. - No, I disagree. (Score:3, Informative)
They had to justify making the Linux port. So they released a Linux version in its own box to see how it would sell on its own.
If I recall correctly, Linux supporters were asked to buy the Linux version and download the Win32 executables from the web site - so you were essentially paying for 3 versions. Also IIRC, the Linux version was released later. That didn't help sales much (since most people who actually want to game buy it quickly), and it makes you wonder if id took that into account
I disagree with the statement "id fucked up" because it was probably pressure from their publisher (Activision?) that made them release the Win32 version ahead of the Linux version and skewing the numbers. I'd like to see a less biased (but similar) test done again in the future. Unfortunately, it probably won't happen at id, one of the more influential developing houses in the games biz.
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:2)
There were hardly a handful of functioning 3d accellerated graphics cards available. Even then their performance was not that of their windows counterpart.
Its a new day and there are a great deal more drivers available under linux. X has progressed a great deal as well.
Its time to stop using the Quake3 example. I think the sales of Return to Castle Wolfenstein would be better a better mark for comparisons.
Quake3 is a very bad example (Score:2)
Ideally, Id should have simply released 1 package with both the Windows and LinuxX86 versions on it, and relied upon the registration process to identify who ran what.
Re:Quake3 is a very bad example (Score:2)
I waited for the Linux version and I've been playing Quake since Quake1. I preordered Quake3 directly from Loki... as soon as they had the discs pressed, they sent them out right away to people who bought the game. They shipped the pretty box and manuals once the contractor had manufactured / printed them all. So Loki kinda went out of their way to make sure us Linux gamers got our version as soon as possible.
* The Linux version only sold in the premium metal tin box, for US$50. The Windows version sold in the cardboard box for US$30. Again, which route are you most likely to take?
1) Until fairly recently, I have never seen the Windows version of Quake3 for $30.
2) The tin box was a sort of collectors edition... after that batch, the rest of the Linux Q3 copies were sold in cardboard. Any tin boxes you saw on the shelf were likely surplus from the original batch.
* Finding a retail store that stocked the Linux version was difficult. If you didn't live in a large city with a computer specialty store, you had no option - you were going to buy the Windows version.
On the contrary, I saw several stores (I'd estimate 50% of the ones I checked out) that carried Q3 Linux. However, not all of these stores stocked them in with the "regular" video games... sometimes you'd have to look for the shelf that displayed Linux distributions and software and you'd see the Q3 among them. I don't mean backwater ma & pa stores, I'm talking about Software Etc, Electronics Boutique, Babbages, et al.
Re:Quake3 is a very bad example (Score:2)
And I was talking about the way most folks buy their games - they walk into a store and walk out with the game.
What part of "live in a large city with a computer specialty store" wasn't clear to you?
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:5, Insightful)
It does promote development of software for the MS Windows platform, but commercial games development for Linux is in a bad way anyway, and we can hardly blame Transgaming for that.
However, as a user, if I can take a game off of the shelf and run it on a Linux system, what do I care if it was developed for another OS? "Oh, Microsoft Windows, is that thing still going?". What Transgaming should be ( and I think are) doing is persuading Windows developers to test their stuff on WineX. If they can convince them that for a few days work, they could get even a 1% hike in sales, they might succeed, and a few days work by fifty games companies will save Transgaming a hell of a lot of work in trying to make the platform fit the game.
As an ex-commercial games developer, I'll stick my oar in and say that most games projects don't consider cross platform issues until well into development. If it's a choice between getting a version to market for one platform, or waiting six months or a year to add multiple platforms, most publishers will press for option 1 on economic grounds (which is why it will be great if Transgaming can persuade even a few of them to tweak for WineX on the basis that it's a cheap way to break into a new platform). In other words: there's never time to do it right, but always time to do it twice. ;-)
Re:WINEX: Good & Bad (Score:2, Interesting)
Wine X is VERY Important (Score:2)
Regardless of the gaming community, Transgaming is more than this, Transgaming is a model, a new way for open source projects and companies to make money. It is very important that we prove the successfulness of this Model by support Transgaming.
Transgaming is not for the current people using Linux, its more for the Windows users who will soon be switching to Linux. Transgaming will make them switch, Once they switch, Game developers will make games which will actually sell.
You see, if a developer sees millions of gamers using Linux, the developer has an option, make a Linux version, or let these people use the Windows version with transgaming in which transgaming makes the money.
However with millions of gamers in Linux, theres also going to be more gamers who want NATIVE ports, who will buy the Native Linux port instead of the Windows port, or who will buy both.
So the Transgaming market really has nothing to do with Loki porting games. Last Loki has proven their model is not going to work, people need games quick, quantity sometimes is more important than quality.
The last thing I want to say is, right now the most important thing you can do as a Linux support is to support transgaming. By supporting them, if you arent a coder and want to contribute to Linux, now is your chance. IF you are a coder, you can help build an Economy up so you actually have a chance at making money for your Linux projects.
If Transgaming is successful, KDE, Gnome, Xfree86, and other important projects may do the same thing. This would give us more influence over the projects, it would give programmers money they deserve, and EVERYONE in the Linux communiy not just the programmers would be able to contribute.
This is GOOD for the Community, and its an issue more important than gaming.
Games do work sorta well, apparently. (Score:3, Informative)
Disclaimer:
(from http://www.transgaming.com/gamepage.php?gameid=9 - The Sims)
TransGaming's fully optimized Linux version of Maxis' hit title works perfectly. Packaged Windows version will *not* work well with standard WineX due to lack of optimizations
It seems like they still have to optimize, but it's encouraging that these things are working in the first place.
Re:Games do work sorta well, apparently. (Score:2)
you dont need this to play half life. or any game that also has support for openGL.
Good idea... (Score:2)
I've fussed with WINE for a couple of years now, occasionally getting some useful work out of it. I think WineX is a great idea. Games should give WINE a pretty good workout. And if it crashes, hey, it was only a game. This should benefit all WINE users.
Translation (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Translation pt 2 (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Translation pt 3 (Score:2)
I've bought versions of Windows many times over the years, and sometimes it does recognize all my hardware, and sometimes it doesn't. However, I'm content to let windows use any drivers it wants, and can't bother to hunt down the most stable drivers for it, or even the proper drivers for some hardware. Even if I had good drivers, I've installed and uninstalled so many things over the years that the cruft leads to blue screens of deaths frequently. I might even have a virus eating away at core system files, but I'm too lazy to check.
Linux never gave me permission to mess with core files as a non-root user. It has never locked up on me.
Isn't linux great?
I'm sorry, it just seems that 99% of the slashdot crowd assumes that a normal, healthy installation of windows crashes all the time. Sure, windows does crash, and I've seen a BSOD or two, but rarely on healthy hardware and software. A crash is the exception, not the rule.
End Rant.
Re:Translation (Score:2)
Two programs that I remember using productively are SyStat and Inspiration. Yeah, I got a lot of segfaults at first, but after enough tweaking it ran stably. Which brings me to my point.
Let the gamers do the tweaking and we'll all benefit!
Bussiness model. (Score:2, Interesting)
You're not alone. I have a friend working (in a gaming company) on a quite powerfull 3D engine. It's been already used for a deer huting game or what was it. The whole code runs under Linux/mesa(opengl) on full optimalization without any problems. They use even openal for audio effects.
The game which runs on this engine uses some (very redundant MS Windows dependent sw (activeX or such)) so the result won't run anything else but MS windows.
However, it'd take a week or so to port to Linux but noone is willing to do it.
Re:Bussiness model. (Score:2)
It would take a week in programmer planning time, which equates to about a month in real time of tweaking and wrestling with an unfamiliar compiler and debugger and coming up with different workarounds for the known buggy bits, then another six man months (minumum) of testing, and X thousand dollars training up support staff, and positioning a new development channel, and persuading retailers to carry the boxen. Then you sell 5 copies, and the project manager that authorised it is looking for another job.
Ex-games programmer speaking. I'd love to see more games developed cross platform from day 1, but it's a matter of brute economics. No matter how cheap it looks, the fixed overheads for developing, testing and supporting a Linux port override the sales potential. Even MacOS ports are risky propositions.
WineX is an interesting alternative. You really can spend a week tweaking to get your game to run on WineX, which might be worth the extra 1% sales you'll get through your existing channel. But there's still the tech support issue though; even if you put "WE DO NOT SUPPORT THIS PRODUCT UNDER WINEX" in Second Coming font all over it, people will still phone up and ask.
Risky porting. (Score:2)
That's sobering, when you consider two things:
1) MacOS users are more likely to actually pay for software than Linux users and
2) MacOS is a much larger slice of the desktop market share than Linux.
--saint
Bussiness model is ok. (Score:2, Insightful)
you lose ~user/.config but thats not very important for me or most of the gamers. You also get a speed decrease which is not good but Transgaming seem to be working very well on the issues. Wolfenstein (altough OpenGL) shows 30% decrease from win version, not to shabby. DiabloII is also very playable in D3D.
Transgaming has also stated that when they got 20000 subscribers they will bring back the code to the main wine tree. Don't think that counts for SecoRom and SafeDisc though.
The best thing is that I can go out to any computer or toy store and buy a game that works with Linux, the native ports are quite hard to find in sweden.
I applied for a VISA today just for this service. They are well worth the money.
Re:Bussiness model is ok. (Score:2)
I want them to publicly disclose their current number of subscribers and update it regularly- at least monthly, since that's the time segment by which subscriptions are divided. I actually don't even have hardware that can use the software I've paid for yet- I subscribed in hopes of rewarding an effort to create free software.
Transgaming has taken a bit of a risk, and I really hope that they are able to pull it off- if this business model works for them and the community gets their code, this will be a great way to solve the problem of how to reward the *creation* of code (which is scarce) as opposed to the *copying* of code (which is not). I will buy proprietary products if there is a reliable and realistic commitment to eventually free them when the authors have been properly compensated.
But we need open disclosure of these numbers. I subscribed for three months, but if I don't know how many subscribers they have at the end of that time, I intend to ask for a refund.
Bryguy
Re:Bussiness model is ok. (Score:2)
If they are public, then their quarterly revenue may give you some idea of the subscription level.
Re:Bussiness model is ok. (Score:2)
Their competitors (who? Loki?) will find it difficult to capitalize on this information unless they release the same information. Even then, it's not clear how they could use this information to their advantage. Finally, markets can't operate efficiently without the free flow of information. We have the right as consumers (and especially as customers) to demand this information.
Here [transgaming.com] is transgaming's business model, which you'll notice mentions the street performer protocol and 20000 subscribers explicitly.
Bryguy
Re:Bussiness model is ok. (Score:2)
I think that if the number is growing at a rapid rate it will help them out immensely, to release it, by getting more subscribers and potential backing from other companies.
While I want to know the numbers actually (Score:2)
For marketing reasons, It would be bad for the company.
I support transgaming. I dont want them to show numbers that may be in the hundreds.
When they get about 10,000 then they should show numbers.
This is good! (Score:3, Informative)
Many people complain that there should be a Linux port and not to use emulation software. Wine is not an emulator and provides a set of APIs for cross platform conformity. This makes it possible for those companies that want a Linux port but do not have the resources to create a Linux port to program for these APIs in their Windows version making the software Linux/Mac/BeOS/etc compatible. This also allows for a single executable to be maintained instead of several versions.
It also allows those of use that dual boot to have one less application to switch to Windows for. Once we no longer dual boot and Windows leaves our hard drives, then the Linux ports will come as Linux will be more of a mainstream OS.
No, this is not better then a native Linux port, but it IS the next best thing!
Locked into Transgaming for games? (Score:3, Interesting)
liB
The games that works now. (Score:3, Informative)
Yes, this is karma whoring but the site felt kinda slow and I thought we needed to know what we are talking about
The Sims
Total Annihilation
Tony Hawk Pro Skater 2
Total Annihilation : Kingdoms
Raiden II
Atomic Bomberman
Redline
Ultima Online Renaissance
American McGee's Alice
Mortal Kombat IV
I-War
Starcraft
Freddi Fish 2 Haunted House
Sudden Strike Forever
Allods 2
Rehash
Warhammer 40k: Final Liberation
Fallout 2
Panzer General 2
Manx TT SuperBike
NHL 98
1nsane
Elasto Mania
Darius Gaiden
In the hunt
Return To Castle Wolfenstein
Funkflitzer
WarCraft II
Half-Life and Counter-Strike
Carmageddon
Diablo 2
Commandos 2
Sacrifice
Command & Conquer Red Alert 2
Baldur's Gate 2
Air Offensive: The Art of Flying
7th Legion
Grim Fandango
Dune 2000
Myth The Fallen Lords
Championship Manager 2001/2002
Caesar III
Hitman CodeName 47
Shattered Galaxy
Jedi Knight
Red Baron 3D
Command & Conquer: Red Alert
Tigershark
Baldur's Gate
Russa-German War
No Emperor: Battle for Dune??? (Score:2)
Say what? No Emperor: Battle for Dune?
That game is a nasty thing. In an effort to foil cheating it does a check for a debugger (which WINE seems to feel like) and if so quits with a message telling you to close your debugger.
hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:4, Interesting)
how much is a copy of win98 going for these days?
Re:hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:2, Interesting)
and source code? who gives a fuck? playing games should be fun, not having to rag your way through reams of c to get the bastard running. don't expect too much in the future, either - to the best of my knowledge there has never been a 100% accurate emulation of a non-trivial system ever.
c'mon, leave this open source bullshit behind you and get an operating system that proper games will work on. you know you want to.
Re:hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:2, Interesting)
And as for "who gives a fuck" about source code, I do, and so does anyone who wants to and has the ability to modify, fix, or enhance any aspect of the product. How are you supposed to enjoy playing the game if the OS it runs on has a bug, misfeature, or ather annoyance that the vendor refuses to fix? Or are you going to claim that Windows 98 is perfect in every way?
Besides, for a lot of us games are not everything. If the games won't run on a reasonable platform, I won't play the games. If there's a product that makes some of those games run on a reasonable platform, then how is that not useful to those people? If you're not one of the people to whom it is useful, then don't subscribe or use it, and quit trolling.
Re:hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:2)
Yep, useful product. It lets you play Windows games on Linux, thus providing more games on Linux. More is usually better than less.
Aging or not, some of the games it enables are great games. I play Counter-Strike more often than any other game.
Yes, WineX will be more useful when it can run more and newer games; that doesn't make it useless now.
playing games should be fun
I agree. This has nothing to do with whether WineX is useful or not. When WineX works perfectly, all you have to do is run the game's installer under WineX, then run the game. Very simple, no source required. Early, bleeding-edge adopters may suffer more and work harder. This merely means that WineX isn't fully done yet. So, you don't want to mess with it until it's fully done? Fine with me.
to the best of my knowledge there has never been a 100% accurate emulation of a non-trivial system ever
First of all, you don't need 100%; you need "enough". There are plenty examples of non-trivial systems being emulated accurately enough. How about, for example, Windows XP? It has huge amounts of code to emulate Windows 98's guts, so games written for 98 will run on XP. And the whole NT family has always had a Win16 subsystem that usefully runs old Win16 apps. Plenty of code from UNIX gets ported to Linux because the compatability is good enough. I could go on.
Second of all, it's already good enough to play Counter-Strike, Starcraft, and a bunch of other games! So WineX itself refutes your argument.
c'mon, leave this open source bullshit behind you and get an operating system that proper games will work on. you know you want to.
Oh, I see: you are a troll, deliberately wasting my time. Silly me.
steveha
Re:hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:2)
To quote you:
I should have known better than to try to make a reasonable response to an article containing that. I suppose it's possible you intended it as a joke, but it wasn't very funny.
I won't waste any more of either of our time. Have a nice life.
steveha
Re:hmmmm.... maths...... (Score:2)
i was deadly serious. if the current situation continues then linux will never become a viable gaming platform for several reasons
It's true that gaming is not Linux's strongest area. But for those of us who like to use Linux, the WineX technology is very interesting.
If Wine can play Counter-Strike (and it does) that's over 50% of all my gaming right there, with no need to reboot the computer out of Linux! I'd be willing to pay some money just for the convenience. I have other reasons than gaming to use Linux, but if I can do all my gaming there too that would be nice.
If all you want to do is play games that were released when Win98 was out, then all you need is a computer running Win98, and I'm glad you are happy with yours. That is no reason to tell me that I know I want to dump Linux.
it does amuse me to see you all kludging around just to get games working on the architecture they were originally designed for
Heh. But that's not completely fair; I'd say Win32 and DirectX are part of the total system architecture that the games were designed for.
steveha
Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:5, Informative)
I've been following the WINE project for quite some time now, and I've been cheering for them from the sidelines the whole time. They've picked exactly the right way to go about their project (provide a Linux version of the Win APIs, not emulate Windows) and once complete, they will have contributed a signifigant service to the community.
But I wonder about their choice of licence.
The nature of WINE is that it is very modular; it's not so much a great big tool, as a toolbox full of little tools, where each "tool" is another successfully ported Windows API call. Wine will be "complete" when every possible Windows API is duplicated in Linux-native code.
As such, it's a program that is very responsive to massive development parallelism - once you have a certain core functionality established, you can hand off large chunks of the API-space to other developers, and they can hack away at it at their leisure. Once they have a given API call working, it can be folded back into the main tree.
It's analogous to the SETI@Home or Distributed.net efforts, where an "API call" is a "work unit" Once the entire API "search space" has been completed, the project is done.
(Of course, this is an over-simplification. Windows itself is not so nicely modularized, with APIs calling APIs and lots of undocumented side-effects. But at a course level, WINE does suit parallel development pretty well)
But WINE is licenced BSD. As such, there is no compelling mechanism that requires that any "work units" be re-submitted back into the main project. It is entirely possible for aome entity to port a core series of Windows APIs, and then withold the source from the WINE community. Entirely legal, but very, very bad form.
And yet, that appears to be what TransGaming is doing. They are working on (from what I can tell from their website) porting the DirectX APIs - absolutely essential for getting games (probably the most compelling reason for using WINE in the first place) to function. They have staked out a key, core component of the WINE project "search space".
And they have licenced their portion of the work in such a way that it taints the entire project. In a nutshell, you are prohibited from _selling_ any product that uses WINE and their source. So if you want to write a DirectX Linux app, and sell it, you're FUBARed.
Furthermore, you can't use any of their source as examples or help in porting other APIs that may be related, because of the tainting effect.
The end result is very much like Microsoft's "Shared Source" where you can see the source code, but you can't actually _use_ it in any meaningful way.
It's worth retelling the story that lead to the creation of the GPL - Stallman was having problems getting a printer to work. He knew that if he had access to the source, he could get the printer to work, and that he could pass out copies so that everyone with a similar printer could get it to work too. The manufacturer refused to provide source, on the grounds that they made their money selling the drivers.
Which is more important, a company making money, or people getting their stuff working?
There are 3 essential aspects of software freedom: Universal availibility of source, Freedom to modify that source, and Freedom to redistribute modified source any way you want (as long as these freedoms are not denied to those further down the chain) TransGaming is providing the first two, but steps on the third - and by doing so, sabotages a worthy community effort.
If only WINE had been been released under the GPL, then this situation could not have occurred!
And a big, HUGE thumbs down to TransGaming, for taking this step in the first place! Yes, they are simply trying to protect their business model, and I understand that. But I offer than any business model that requires poisoning a community effort in this way in order to ensure its success is a business model that should not have been attempted in the first place.
I will not be making use of TransGaming's code, and I encourage others to do the same.
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:5, Insightful)
We will not release that code under a less restrictive license (such as the Wine license) unless and until we have a paying subscriber base of at least 20,000 users.
Now that's a big if, you are correct. What if they go out of business at 11,000 subscribers? They are under no obligation to do anything with their code.
However, they seem to be pretty nice, and I suspect that if they do go under, and I hope they don't, they will release the code anyway, no matter the number of subscribers.
"Poisoning a community" is a gross over-reaction to their system though. Maybe you should think about the fact that Wine specifically chose BSD not GPL. The initial Wine developers had a choice and they made it. You have to respect their choice, even if you disagree with it.
"Patronage" is a Good Thing (Score:2, Insightful)
Patronage - "pay us money so that we can continue to work on this code and release it to the community where you can benefit" - is an entirely appropriate and decent business model for this kind of activity.
Hard to enforce? Absolutely. Patonage by definition relies upon the goodwill of others. And sad as it is, there are lots of people who will choose to reap the reward without contibuting.
But TransGaming have it backwards. As it sits, their current methods are closer to extortion "If you ever want to see the code released without strings, pay us money" than true patronage "If you want to see us continue to contribute quality code, pay us money".
Patronage I support. If they were to release their code under the WINE licence today, I'd cut them a cheque immediately.
Extortion I do not support. Do the right thing FIRST, get paid LATER. Do not expect my support at the point of a sword.
Thats why you subcribe dummy! (Score:2)
If you dont subscribe they may not have money to continue their work.
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:2)
Easy.
Who begin?
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:2, Troll)
If everything used the GPL, all the software in the world would suck as badly as the GPL'd crap on freshmeat.
The only two GPL'd programs that are worth downloading are GCC and The Gimp, and neither of them are revolutionary. They're merely acceptable substitutes for commercial programs that are much better. One could argue for KDE and Mozilla, too, I suppose.
The GPL would have languished in obscurity if it hadn't been for the Linux kernel, and it's time that RMS faced that fact. From now on, it's the Linux/GPL!
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:5, Insightful)
From the Transgaming sources [transgaming.com] page:
Either you didn't know that, or you think they're liars and chose not to give them even the benefit of the doubt by bringing it to our attention. Of course, that still leaves the "problem" that WINE is BSD rather than GPL.
Here's the thing. If you, or another GPL evanglist wants to replicate Transgaming's work (or the whole of WINE) under a GPL license, there's nothing stopping you. They've even given you their source code to look at to help you clean room it. That fact that you choose not to do that does not reflect on Transgaming or WINE, it reflects on you.
Perhaps you think that it's better to have nobody doing this than to have a "poisoner" like Trangaming doing it? If you really think that, I'd be delighted to hear you explain why. Is it GPL or nothing for you, and if so, why not spend your time being part of the solution rather than casting slings and arrows at Transgaming?
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:5, Informative)
The WINE implementatin of Direct3D would have improved at the same slow rate of other parts of WINE that are not commercially funded. None of the work that we've already contributed back to WineHQ WINE would exist (our work on DirectSound, 2D DirectDraw restructuring, DirectInput, OLE Automation, and general bug fixes).
There would be no opportunity for our business model experiment with the Street Performer Protocol, which could serve as an effective model for other, similar projects.
You're also right in that this *is* about people getting their stuff working. Nothing stops anyone from taking the code and doing whatever they want with it to improve it to get their software working. If they want to redistribute something commercially, they can come to us to negotiate an appropriate commercial license. If they're commercial developers who want to sell a Linux port that uses our DirectX code, is it unreasonable to ask them to pay to support the project? Under the GPL, of course, they could not do such a thing AT ALL.
-Gav
--
Gavriel State, CEO
TransGaming Technologies Inc.
gav@transgaming.com
http://www.transgaming.com
So what's stopping you now, then? (Score:2)
What is stopping you, now that you have your subscriber model up and running, from re-licencing all your code BSD and immediately merging it back into the WINE main tree?
The people who began the WINE project - for better or worse - chose the BSD licence for their code. Why will you not respect that decision, and do the same for your portion?
Open Source projects, irregardless of the actual licence, are community efforts towards providing free and functional software. Nowhere is it implied that there is any fundimental right to make money doing it. It is, at its very core, a philantropical operation. Code is _donated_ to serve the greater cause.
If you can find some way to do this for a living, as have many developers who work for Red Hat, hey, more power to you. There's no fundimental right to make money off your work, but neither is there a prohibition _against_ making money either.
Except where your business model, designed to generate that money, collides with the values of the community you are a part of.
Has TransGaming contributed to the WINE project? Of course they have. But without the thousands of hours of DONATED time and effort done by other people working on the core of WINE, TransGaming would have nothing to base its work on. TransGaming (from what I have seen) cannot exist without WINE, but WINE can very happily exist without TransGaming. Developmental progress might be slower, but at least portions of the project wouldn't be held hostage.
What gives TransGaming the right to demand payment for its contributions, when so many more people have contributed as much or more and expecting no payment in return?
As a potential patron of TransGaming, I am willing to contribute financially to see coders employed working on a project I have an interest in. I cannot pay a whole salary, but I can make some small contributions, expecting that others will do the same, and that the net effect is that TransGaming can continue to do effective work full-time. Not a problem. Not an issue. In fact, I wish I had MORE opportunity to do this sort of contribution on projects I want to see done, but don't have time to work on myslef.
But the road that TranGaming has chosen I find distasteful and borderline extortive. How do you justify this behaviour?
.
Re:So what's stopping you now, then? (Score:2, Insightful)
If you choose the BSD licence, then you effectively tell the world that what TransGaming is doing is OK with you. Thus it is not a matter of respect if TransGaming keep their code to themselves. It would be a matter of disrespect if someone persistently demanded (and for no good reason maybe?) of the WINE project that they changed their licence.
> Has TransGaming contributed to the WINE project? Of course they have. But without the thousands of hours of DONATED time and effort done by other people working on the core of WINE, TransGaming would have nothing to base its work on.
What gives TransGaming the right to demand payment for its contributions, when so many more people have contributed as much or more and expecting no payment in return?
This is ridiculous. For each IF-THEN statement I write, I am not forced to go to the Temple of Logic to pray my thanks to Lord Aristotle for doing research on the precursor to first order logic.
If you need to stand on the shoulders of giants to make your livelyhood, then that's ok. Science and civilisation both depend on that ability. It is really only religious people who demand that "the spirit in which Plato did this or that" should be "respected" by all living beings for several hundred years to come.
>But the road that TranGaming has chosen I find distasteful and borderline extortive. How do you justify this behaviour?
I suppose they would simply deny that your personal view on their work is screwed and leave it at that?
Re:Perils of the BSD-style licence of WINE? (Score:2)
IANAL, however, from what I understand of copyright law this wouldn't be possible.
As long as you don't use any of their source, including #include files, then you're alright. Where Troll Tech can control the QT licensing is that you need to use their #include and other source files to write a QT-based application.
However, if you are targetting DirectX, there's no really no telling whether you are targetting Microsoft's implementation of DirectX or TG's. As long as you A) don't include any of their source in your project and B) don't distribute TG's binaries with your program, you can sell your Linux-based DirectX application all you want and they cannot stop you. Simply include instructions with your program on how to obtain WineX from TransGaming.
That's it. Writing an app to conform to a particular API would be considered fair use as long as you don't have to use TransGaming's source to write your app. Simple.
Suffering DirectX programmers! (Score:2)
Windows Gaming is a Good Thing (Score:4, Insightful)
It is a good thing that almost all games are written for Windows.
The reason is that we don't want a moving target for developers who are writing commercial titles. In the console gaming market, you can buy a PS2, XBOX, SNES or whatever, and only play games for those platforms on those boxes. Any developer who wants to capture the whole market must port to each platform. This is slow, frustrating and helps neither the game house nor the consumer.
In the PC market on the other hand, you can write only for Windows and not worry b/c you know you'll hit the vast majority of consumers. John Carmack is fond of saying that all Linux game sales ever don't add up to one medium selling Windows title. So people aren't about to write games for Linux unless they want the techincal challenge/fun.
WINEX is great. We need to accept the fact that people will continue to write games exclusively for Windows (and that they should!). And we need to find ways to make those games work on other platforms if we want to use other platforms to play them.
I really don't think this should be a pro/anti Microsoft discussion, just an evaluation of the reality of the situation.
Re:Windows Gaming is a Good Thing (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that it's a good temporary solution, sure. But the reality is that we need a good gaming API or library that works well on ANY platform and is OPEN. This should be organized by people in the industry for the sake of the gaming industry.
Sure, developing a game for one platform is good for consoles - but why consistently be controlled by the direction that one company (MS in this case) wants to go?
In order to keep the best interests of the industry and consumers ahead of monopolistic (this is no longer opinion) companies, they need to create (or amalgamate and improve) existing OPEN libraries for use in HIGH PERFORMANCE, BLEEDING EDGE modern games.
Put MS in the loop, of course - they already know a lot about this sort of thing. Heck, it might even be in their best interests to open up DirectX. Wouldn't that be mighty nice (and unlikely) of them?
Not just for subscribers.. (Score:3, Interesting)
So if you don't feel like paying, build the source if you can. Takes a long while, and if it fails, oh well, shell out a bit of cash for your software for once
Transgaming is a decent company, even if they don't bend over backwards to give away all their work for free. This is a bad expectation for Linux users to have, and when commercial Linux projects receive such criticism, it makes commercial vendors more and more hesitant about releasing linux products.
Re:Not just for subscribers.. (Score:2)
Since WineX's only real work is done in the DirectX department, shouldn't it be easy for you to fold their changes into the main tree yourself, by updating all the DirectX related files under the /dlls folder of the source tree?
winex ups and downs (Score:3, Interesting)
it was my desire to rid my life of that heinous win partition that finally pushed me to toss $15 at transgaming. i have been VERY pleased with the results.
my rationalizations: first, gaming companies are not going to give up writing games for windows. most of them won't even produce for the mac, so how can i expect them to pick up linux anytime soon? loki, loki, loki...save it. i have loki games all over the place, but last time i checked, loki doesn't do diablo. and that is basically ALL i do.
so i use winex, which gets me diablo. call me a pragmatist, but i like to use my computer for whatever i choose. the workaround that is wine exists and i don't mind using it.
i know this all sounds rather flamish, but i am trying to point out that pragmatism certainly won't kill anyone in this arena. i buy linux games whenever they are available rather than their windows siblings. but these are games we're talking about. free as in speech doesn't really apply (in my mind) and they certainly aren't critical to my (or anyone else's) existence. that's why they are called games.
will my use of winex change the balance of gaming? nope. if i only buy games made for linux, will THAT tip things? nope. it would take more gamers than linux has users to do that. is winex good or bad for linux? i don't know. if we suddenly had more games for linux, would it necessarily draw more people to it? i don't know. what i do know is that until the games i play come in linux flavors, winex it is.
disclaimer: all i use at home is debian and the only non-free software i ever run is game related...preaching to the converted and all that...
Your copy of the sims won't work! (Score:2, Insightful)
It costs $89 and comes with a special copy of the sims that has been specially re-written to work with WineX (as well as a 3 month Transgaming subscription).
The normal windows version of the sims DOES NOT work with transgaming, and it will never do so.
Transgaming say this is because "it uses a complicated mixture of 2D and 3D" and that they had to re-write the graphics engine to get it to work.
Some people think that Transgaming are lying, and that they are doing this to make people buy the mandrake Gaming edition (for which they get a cut), but Transgaming seem like nice guys, I don't think they would do anything so underhand.
--Htwo
needs DX8 (think XBOX and games) (Score:2)
they have been telling developers (M$) that xbox was 8 for a long time now so why go with DX7 ?
really they should aim for DX8
xbox libs are not getting updated anytime soon like a PC can so you have an unmoveing target
I know you would need a Gefource 3 but hey most people would have these anyway if they attempted it
regards
john jones
Re:needs DX8 (think XBOX and games) (Score:2)
Re:needs DX8 (think XBOX and games) (Score:2)
I really wanted to subscribe (Score:3, Informative)
The real test for me was Baldur's Gate, something that didn't work with just plain Wine. WineX got farther than Wine, it managed to play the movies and actually start the game. However, just like Wine, the games stutter like mad and never achieve anything close to respectable speeds. I think it's a problem with my sound card, but I'm too lazy to set up the ALSA drivers, which may solve my problem. And I'd be really upset if I went to the trouble just to have it not work due to something else.
Anyhow, I'm planning on trying it again if I replace my sound card, or if I get time to try out ALSA, but I'm not holding my breath. No one else that I've seen has had this kind of problem (everyone either doesn't work or does, no one seems to have stuttering in all games) so I don't think it'll get fixed anytime soon. I really wanted this to work, and I'd still like to subscribe if I could get this working. But this is the classic problem with Linux and I'm not ready to fork over money if I don't believe it's going to work for me.
Re:I really wanted to subscribe (Score:2)
if you want games working then you must subscribe, (Score:2)
If You Want Me To Subscribe, Get Games Working (Score:2)
Support Transgaming for the good of Open Source (Score:3, Interesting)
It gives you far more freedom than buying products from a store.
First you get to vote on the features and on what the programmers do, so essentially you have the power of an investor moreso than someone who goes to a store and buys a license to run some software.
Second, after you pay, its released and YOU own the code, however it takes 20k people for this to happen so i suggest you all help this company out.
People who dont play games should still subscribe, while you may not pay games, if you want other Linux projects to be funded in this way, then you need to first prove this method works by supporting it.
So do your part and perhaps it will help the open source economy, tis only $5 a month so unless you are some kinda penny pinching greedy bastard you can afford this.
Tech question - which video/sound cards? (Score:2)
I ask cause they're servers, and I'm pretty sure I didn't buy top-end graphics or sound cards, so my question could be phrased as:
1. what is the low end setup I'll need supported by Mandrake Linux 8.1 with WineX - minimal sound and video cards for reasonable playing of The Sims and probably WarCraft I/II and StarCraft.
2. what is the top end setup currently supported by Mandrake Linux 8.1 with WineX - basically what cards could I buy that it will support well? And for that, is there something I should get so that I can run Black and White while I'm buying.
I'd like to spend less than $200 total if possible.
Thanks!
-
Re:Anarchy Online (Score:3, Informative)
Too bad there's not enough of me to have an effect on any market statistic relevant to game developers.
If it works why would you have a reason to pay? (Score:3, Insightful)
Duh. if you want it to work you'll have to pay. Else its not going to work.
You have to get this out of your mind, that programmers need to eat too. If you want anarchy online, then subscribe and tell all your anarchy online friends to subcribe, and vote for anarchy online.
Until then, Anarchy online is going to stay way way down at the bottom of the list because the people subscribed want Black and White, and Starcraft working perfectly along with Civ3.
Re:And the other alternate is...... (Score:2, Informative)
For gaming???? (Score:2)
Excuse me, have you ever used VNC? Can you imagine pushing 1024x768x32 at 60FPS over a VNC connection?
I use vnc quite a bit, and it's OK if you're running an XTerm... under twm. Anything else gets slow.
I guess Solitare would work.
Re:winex nah (Score:3, Insightful)
meaning it's wicked easier for developers to make stunning games on a Windows platform, and then it's stunningly more lucrative.
three years ago Steve jobs tried to start the same initiative and john carmack (who you should damn well know) was brought in to consult/lend legitimacy. still, three years later the state of Mac gaming is "much better" then it was but still "shitty" compared to what is released exclusively on Windows.
now the point i am making is this (and this refers to gaming so don't read too much into it), MS spends billions, and won. Apple Spends millions and stays alive, linux does not spend.
there are native linux games that kick so much ass, we should all be assless. and dammit, i will buy them, i will buy them all just because of the penguin on the freaking box.
but i like games. A lot. so I have to have a 2k box running. that's all there is to it. yes i have a PS2 and a Dreamcast and a game cube on the way. but that is for the tony hawks and the grand turismo's and the sports games. the stuff i prefer to play is not available on consoles (and would suck if they were) not available on Linux, and might be available for the Mac next Christmas (maybe).
So I hope WineX kicks all the ass left after all the native linux games got tired and stopped kicking so much ass. that way I won't have to duel boot my wee 12Gig laptop HD. and i can play Arcanum and Tux Racer on the same platform when i am out of town. (or hiding in my office)
Re:Other than games? (Score:2, Informative)
AFAIK, wineX is solely concentrating on DirectX and its components. Excel IIRC does not use DirectX, therefore WineX should have no bearing on it.
Re:Bankrupt in six months (Score:2)
Re:Bankrupt in six months (Score:2)
Just because Canada isn't the highest doesn't mean taxes aren't a problem. And they are a problem, because they discourage enterprise and hard work.
RE: Secondly, the "brain drain" is bullshit forwarded by "tax cut" advocates.. it makes a nice meme but has little substance.
Well, as someone who was born and raised in Ontario but who moved to the USA in 1997, let me say that yes, me and several others in this office and others do exist, and yes, we moved for twice the pay, half the taxes, and greater opportunity. So now that denying we don't exist doesn't work, I fully expect you to pull the "they're traitors" apologism out of your hat.
Re:Bankrupt in six months (Score:2)
Ah, the "rich people are inherently selfish and evil, because they don't want to give away the fruits of their hard work to support those who refuse to work. Good little citizen. The auberge Grand-mere and the HDRC fatten on your taxes!
RE: When I pay my taxes I am co-operating with my neighbour, a much better tact than to boorishly 'compete' needlessly...
Tell you what, then. You guys run your commune, and those with drive will ultimately take over. Enjoy the slow slide into a ten cent dollar.
RE: As for *your* leaving, thats your business. I live in Windsor, I dont need anyone to tell me about the differences between the US and Canada... I can see it everytime I drive through Detroit. "Detroit" doesnt happen in Canada.... inspite of the riches in the suburbs, the city is a wasteland... and it is precisly this "i work hard for myself" attitude that prevents real opportunity for all.
I see. Obviously you took a look at Detroit inner-city slums and said "if this is capitalism, give me Trudeau any day." You might want to check out communist China, Cuba and/or what Communist Russia was like to get an idea of where Canada is headed.