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Technology

New, Flexible CDs Arrive 332

Posted by CmdrTaco from the but-I-liked-shattering-CDs dept.
Mortin writes "A company called Flexstorm has developed a new type of CD, dubbed flexCD, that is about 140 microns thick, 1/10th that of a normal CD, and most importantly flexible. The technical specs on this new technology are quite impressive, boasting a weight of only .6 grams on the flexCD 80. Producing a flexCD also only takes .3 seconds, less than that of a normal CD."
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New, Flexible CDs Arrive More

New, Flexible CDs Arrive

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  • They are pushing a flexable cd that plays in a standard cd drive with the use of an adapter.

    So the disks must be the razor.

    OTOH if these were availavle as CDR/RW it might make storage easier if you can reuse the adapters or get a drive that plays them natively.

  • Best of all (Score:5, Funny)

    by SVDave ( 231875 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:20PM (#3177595)
    Being so thin, it can be easily shredded, so there's no further need to keep your financial documents [andersen.com] on paper.
    • It is spectacularly simple to destroy a data cd if you have a microwave.

    • Re:Best of all (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Waffle Iron ( 339739 )
      Being so thin, it can be easily shredded, so there's no further need to keep your financial documents [andersen.com] on paper.

      I don't think that's such a good idea. Anybody with special equipment could probably read whatever's left of the tracks on the shards of CD. One shard could hold many kilobytes of contiguous data; even entire documents.

      Shredding a CD is kind of like printing all of your documents onto a single mile-long roll of paper, then slicing the paper into 1-foot long pieces. You could get a lot of info off of any one chunk.

    • Re:Best of all (Score:2, Funny)

      by tetro ( 545711 )
      Why do they have a naked guy bending backwards on top of another naked guy? Am I the only one weirded out by the company's website?
  • so now its going to be that much harder to break those damn AOL CDs

  • cd's in printed materials (Score:4, Interesting)

    by s20451 ( 410424 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:20PM (#3177598) Journal
    I'm old enough to remember when some books and magazines included analog records printed on sheets of plastic ... particularly music instruction books, and things of that nature. I'm looking forward to the days when you can tear a CD out of your favourite music magazine and listen to it ...
    • many music magazines have been doing this for ages (c.f. CMJ's New Music Monthly, for example,) and various music-making magazines (future music, computer music journal,) include data CDs with audio samples for music production. CMJ/NMM used to include the cds in cardboard sleeves but has recently switched to plastic sleeves. there's nothing new about this.
      • I think you missed the point. Records actually used to be printed on vinyl bound into books/magazines, just as a page. Not an insert, but an actual page. You could tear the vinyl record out of the middle and play it.

        This new CD technology would allow this to happen once again.

    • Re:cd's in printed materials (Score:4, Informative)

      by BigBlockMopar ( 191202 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:43PM (#3177696) Homepage

      I'm old enough to remember when some books and magazines included analog records printed on sheets of plastic ... particularly music instruction books, and things of that nature.

      "Sound Sheets", they were called.

      Memories:

      • "Sound Sheets should not be used with automatic record changers."
      • "Place Coin Here If Sound Sheet Slips"

      I remember as a kid, when Pierre Elliot Trudeau did that big constitution thing with the queen back in 1981, the newspaper came with Sound Sheets of the Canadian national anthem. Somewhere, I still have that and a few other sound sheets.

      One of them is a little mutilated. At the ripe old age of 7, I *had* to know what would happen if I put it onto the old BSR record changer.

      And now, it's consoling that a new generation shall know the horror.

      • Of course, one of the best had to have been the Deathtongue album in one of the Bloom County books - Opus on Tuba, and Bill on the Electric Tongue. Cool stuff. I've long since lost the album - I wonder if gnutella has it...

        --
        Evan

        • Of course, one of the best had to have been the Deathtongue album in one of the Bloom County books - Opus on Tuba, and Bill on the Electric Tongue. Cool stuff. I've long since lost the album - I wonder if gnutella has it...

          Billy and the Boingers Bootleg...still have mine, but I haven't had access to a turntable since '92. The track names you want to locate are "I'm A Boinger" and "U-Stink-But-I--U." (Hmm..Konqueror doesn't want to render the heart character. Maybe IE will.)

          Maybe it's time to see what's available cheap at the local used-stereo-gear shop...

      • Yep, Eva-Tone made them, they stopped making them about a year ago...

        see http://www.eva-tone.com/about_news.asp?Action=Read &NewsID=26 [eva-tone.com]

        -aaron


        • Yep, Eva-Tone made them, they stopped making them about a year ago...

          A year ago?

          Jeez, who was buying them a year ago?

          That's incredible. I'd assumed they were as far back in the past as the double-chamber McDLT styrofoam box (keeps the hot side hot and the cold side cold...).

    • Yeah, I remember old vinyl records being a part of Quisp and Quake cereal box packages. You could cut it out and play it on your Speed Racer record player. It was cool!
    • FlexiDiscs, they were called.

      And they came in a mag called Flexipop [geocities.com].

      But they were around long before that.

      The first recorded object I ever owned was a square flexi, and that was in 1968, before Flexipop even got the idea.

      --Blair

  • It's for sticking in magazines... (Score:3, Informative)

    by waytoomuchcoffee ( 263275 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:21PM (#3177600)
    This was tried before ("Thindisk Flexible Media"), as a new way to stick CDs into magazines. If you thought the AOL CDs were bad before, wait until next year.

  • An adaptor? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by diablochicken ( 445931 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:23PM (#3177608) Homepage Journal
    According to the specifications, this would require an adaptor to play in existing CD drives.

    If they're pushing this as a supplement to advertisements (distribution via mail, magazine, what have you), how are they going to get the adapters to people? How are they going to overcome the barrier of getting people to actually use the adapters?

    Seems like there's a bit of a bottleneck in this biz plan.
    • You realize they currently bundle real CD's with magazines, right? I can't imagine an adapter would be much (or any) bigger than a real CD.

    • Re:An adaptor? (Score:4, Funny)

      by b0rken ( 206581 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:16PM (#3177852) Homepage
      They can just give 'em out for free at Radio Shack!
    • you're right. however, you are thinking 'today' when they are thinking 'tomorrow' ... this isn't something we'll see for a while (unless the adapter is simply a case or a flash program).

      when cdrw came out, no cdroms could read them. soon after, ALL cdroms could read them. similarly with this (if it flies, and it should); cdrom/dvdrom and writers released after some date in the future will all be able to read this new technology, and at that point, you'll see flexible cds in the mail and in your cereal boxes.

      problem is getting this standardized and implemented into future drives. ...and let's not forget DVD players and CD audio systems -- great for the car!
    • In addition to the obvious comment "next-gen drives won't require an adapter", you're also missing the fact that you can ship a magazine with one adapter and fifty FlexCDs.
    • they've been secretly shipping these adapters for years in CD-R media, what do you think those clear top discs are for? :p
    • For their "FlexCD" to be playable in regular CD drives, it has to conform to the CD standards.

      A regular CD consists of a reflective data layer (aluminium in the case of a "pressed" CD) protected on the top by 10-20 microns of lacquer and on the bottom, by 1.2mm of polycarbonate. CD drives are therefore designed so that the laser focussing system takes the refractive index of polycarbonate into account: the laser is only in focus if the CD has an optical depth of 1.2mm*1.55 (the refractive index, N, of polycarbonate) = 1.86mm.

      If these FlexCDs are 1/10 of the thickness of a regular CD, then either they have to be made of a material with a refractive index ten times larger than that of polycarbonate (show me one!) or they need to use an adaptor (a "spacer" of some kind, perhaps just a disc of transparent plastic!) to keep the data layer at the laser's nominal focus.

  • This will bring a whole new meaning to the word "floppies." Funny, you will be able to fit Mandrake on just a couple of floppies, rather than a few hundred.

  • Why this will fail (Score:3, Insightful)

    by KurdtX ( 207196 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:25PM (#3177613)

    With our adapter, the flexCD plays in most existing CD and DVD devices
    Who remembers CD caddies? And how much you hated them? Why would you want to go back to that?

    And for non-technical people (the ones that can't set the time on their VCR), they're not going to be able to figure out how to use the adapter and will likely end up destroying their CD players, particularly if they try it with a slot-loading one.

    Sure, it will be great for people who like the CD inserts in magazines, and may be the best thing in the world for them, but I've yet to find an insert that would make me want to keep around an extra caddy just so I could play it. But then again, it would be nice to be able to fold up a CD and stick in an envelope instead of buying the special CD protective packages, so it might work.

    Oh, and what do those naked men have to do with CDs?

    • Re:Why this will fail (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jridley ( 9305 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:04PM (#3177793)
      Actually, I like caddies. I'm kinda pissed that I couldn't buy a caddy drive when I built my new Athlon XP last week. The old caddy drive was 2X and I just couldn't live with the speed anymore, so I had to cave and get a tray drive. Ugh.

      Try giving games to 3 year olds and see how long the CDs last. Then put them in caddies and see how long they last (hint: case 1, about 3 days, case 2, 6 years and counting).
      • What would have been perfect is if the cd format had originally been done with a plastic case around them, just like a 3 1/2 inch floppy disk. Unfortunately, the guy who thought up cds based them on records, and just didn't really think of a protective case.
    • Maybe not, I always hate taking a cd-rom or DVD out of the jewel case for fear of the plastic breaking and 12-24 bucks going down the drain. I'd much rather have a flexable, break resistant media and a broken adaptor costing 50 cents anyday.
    • Who remembers CD caddies? And how much you hated them? Why would you want to go back to that?

      Caddies made sense if you had several and you needed to switch CDs in your drive frequently. With six caddies, you could put each of your five most frequently used CDs in its own caddy. Then, when you want to change, you eject one caddy and slap another in. No opening jewelboxes, no delicately handlind a CD by the edge, no carefully placing it in a tray. Just eject and insert. Simple as a floppy. And back in the days when a 100Mb hard drive was considered big, people did a lot of CD-swapping.

      The problem is that the drive manufacturers decided to shave a few bucks off the price of a drive by only including one caddy with the drive. Thus, instead of making things easier, the single caddy actually made things harder, because in addition to opening the jewelbox, etc, you now had to open the caddy each time and gingerly insert the CD. No surprise that people jumped at motorized trays when they finally appeared.

      Nowadays, of course, hard drives can hold a hundred CDs worth of data on them, so no one needs to swap CDs much anymore.

      TheFrood

  • What's the point? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lostchicken ( 226656 )
    They are pushing this as a way to mail discs, right?

    If I do got one of these in the mail, I'll need the adapter. I don't have one (like most people), so they would need to send me one in the package.

    Guess what: the package is no longer thinner nor lighter than a regular disc, and it isn't flexable.

    Seems like a stupid idea to me.

    • Re:What's the point? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by wadetemp ( 217315 )
      How about for magazine subscriptions? If it's a magazine where they send you a demo disc or the like every issue, they'll just send you the adapter with the first issue, then never again. And then the benefits pay off... they can send multiple CDs per issue, from different vendors, and not have to worry about bulk.

  • Needs an "adapter" (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jfortier ( 141983 )
    This isn't as great as it sounds, because you have to "sandwich" it in their plastic adapter to get your CD player to read the disk. Since no one has any of their adapters sitting around the house, anyone who wanted to mail one of thess flexCDs out (which is supposed to be one of their main applications) would also have to send out the rigid plastic pieces, reducing the weight and flexibility advantages. If it ever catches on and people start keeping plastic adapters around the house, that might become unnecessary, but I can see this tanking because people can't figure out why their CD player/drive doesn't like this flexible piece of plastic.

  • toxic data? (Score:3, Funny)

    by spray_john ( 466650 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:29PM (#3177641)
    "The flexCD is non-toxic and may be used with food items."

    Holy crap! You mean I should have been washing my hands after using rigid discs?

  • How often have you thought "I would buy this CD if only I could bend it!" or, "I would buy this meat if only it had a flexible CD packaged with it!"
    • I would buy this meat if only it had a flexible CD packaged with it!

      Dude. I ALWAYS think that. Except for the edibility factor, meat is just not that appealing to consumers. Now, if it came with a "Beef. It's What's For Dinner" Flash animation on a CD, I would be all over it.
    • That's because you are not in the business of sending out thousands of promotional CDs. Lower weight means lower postage. flexibility means new ways of packaging for promotional handouts. They say they can also automatically insert them in magazines thereby reducing the cost of doing covermounts since the case isn't necessary. And they're quicker to print.


      These aren't aimed at the consumer. They are aimed at the promotions industry.

  • Now what does this remind me of? The magnetic disks on the inside of floppy disks. Does this mean that we'll finally start to see caddy-style CDs pick up in popularity? I really don't see that much else of a purpose for more flexible CDs, unless you plan to fold them up and put them in your pocket.
  • if they are 140 microns thick or whatever, wouldn't they be susceptible to tearing? I mean basically this is just like the foil data layer of a cd with very little protection. this would also make them more vulnerable to scratches and whatnot because you dont have a millimeter or so of plastic between the face and the data. a scratch that would not affect a normal cd may very well scratch all the way to the data layer of a thin cd.

    • Re:thin and flexible is great but... (Score:5, Funny)

      by wadetemp ( 217315 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:46PM (#3177706)
      The AOL CDs I get in the mail don't hold up very well either. They tend to break on the second or third (accidental) bending. They also scratch very easily, especially if I accidentally scratch them with a razor blade. Finally, after being broken in half and scratched, they don't make very good frisbees. I was kind of hoping for better things from this flexible format.

      • Gad...I didn't think people did all that physical manipulation of AOL CDs anymore. I thought we'd all switched to watching the lovely "light show" produced by placing the little guys in our microwaves and letting rip.


        The light show is less work and is purty to boot. Why waste time physically manhandling them?

        • A friend keeps AOL CDs in his car and chucks them at people he's trying to get the attention of, or at REALLY arsehole drivers. He's also quite accurate with them, and can tell you the weight/handling differences between different ad campaigns. Kinda creepy how he can hit a pretty small target from a decent distance.

          --
          Evan

    • Regular CDs aren't very durable, either. On the label side, all that protects the data from damage is a very thin layer of sprayed-on laquer. Scratches through this laquer are generally fatal to the data beneath, and are troublingly easy to create.

      The flexible CDs also use a very thin layer of sprayed-on laquer.

      I submit, thus, that these flexible CDs are as at least as impervious to harm their fragile grandparents, bit-rot and aluminum-eating microbes included.

  • Oh no... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by O2n ( 325189 )
    From the website:
    flexMail allows you to target your markets selectively, personally, and flexibly, combining our flexible media with traditional direct mail services.

    Tis spells more spam to me, so I'm not really sure I'm happy. Also, as a sysadmin I wouldn't want to go again thru "don't run magazine cds" for the people (obviously this is not the cd they were tought to handle :)
  • I wonder if these Flexible CD's will also be the same quality of regular CD's. Particularly, will they be able to last up to 80 years (IIRC, that's what consumer grade CD's can last up to).

    I'm guessing since the CD is made of more flexible material (and a polymer, which is organic), so it may be able to break down easier/quicker.

  • Jar Openers (Score:5, Funny)

    by cybermage ( 112274 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @04:58PM (#3177761) Homepage Journal
    Cool, If we could get AOL to send these out, I'll have a collection of jar openers to go with my coasters.
  • CDs are already the perfect size and rigidity, in my opinion. We should concentrate on packing more data into them (DVD, blue-laser, etc.), and making them more robust. I have never needed to bend a CD (what, am I going to put it through a fax machine?), nor would I like it if my CDs were bendy.
    • "I have never needed to bend a CD (what, am I going to put it through a fax machine?), nor would I like it if my CDs were bendy."

      I usually carry a few CDRs full of MP3s in my laptop bag. On one occasion, I went to pull one out of the bag, and it had actually broken in half. I've also had some scratched, jewel cases cracked etc. It seems to me that a CD that was more resilient would be a good thing in some ways.

      It should be noted that I don't treat my original CDs like I treat my copies. It costs me $0.50 and 20 minutes to make a new CDR copy, but $18 (+tax) for a new original.

  • Frisbees (Score:2, Funny)

    by sydbarrett74 ( 74307 )
    Lovely! So now I can turn my AOL CD's into rather *aerodynamic* frisbees!

  • Flexibility over Practicality (Score:5, Interesting)

    by pinkpineapple ( 173261 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:06PM (#3177804) Homepage
    Being flexible presents some advantage in the ad business as it becomes possible to send CD like junk mail. I (don't really) look forward to the days of getting Pre-approved credit card mail on this media. However, the format becomes quickly an inconvienience when you decide to keep and use the media. As an example, I remember when the DVD expert group was debating over as to protect the disc in the casing or not (like the Panasonic PD disk.) They decided not to, to the biggest regret of companies like Blockbuster who are irritating their customers by renting DVD with scratches and digs all over (I've got one of these DVDs with a cigarette burn in it!)

    I really like the tape format, and I enjoy the mini disc (MD) style, allowing me to throw medium on the desk without caring if it will get scratched. The MD format is almost perfect for me. It's smaller than CDs and fit in backpacks. It's too bad that it hasn't become more popular with increase storage and broader adoption by computer manufacturers.

    PPA, the girl next door.
  • Years ago, when phonograph players were common, companies would often ship flexible records inside magazines. You'd remove the record from the perforated plastic sheet and play it on your stereo.

    (get it? What goes around...)

    Sorry..
    • When I was in 1st or 2nd grade (1985 I think?) McDonald's had a contest where they gave out flexible records in the Sunday paper with some people trying to sing all of the items on McDonald's menu. Almost all the records had the people screwing up the song. If you got the one where they completed it, you won a bunch of money. A bunch of people were buying up tons of Sunday Papers and listening to the records inside.

      The amusing side-effect of this was that most of my classmates could sing the McDonald's menu. This is as far as I got:

      "Big Mac, McDLT, a Quarter Pounder with some cheese, Filet of Fish, a Hamburger, A Cheeseburger, a Happy Meal, Crispy Golden Fries, large or regular size..."

      It bugs me that an ad campaign that many years ago has me retaining that much information from it.

      • Big Mac, Mc Dlt, a Quarter-Pounder with some cheese
        Fillet-o-Fish, a hamburger, a cheeseburger, a Happy Meal
        Mcnuggets, tasty golden french fries, regular and larger size
        And salads, chef or garden, or a chicken salad oriental
        Big Big Breakfast, Egg Mcmuffin, hot hotcakes and sausage
        Maybe biscuits, bacon, egg and cheese and sausage, danish, hashbrown too
        and for dessert hot apple pies and sundaes three varieties
        A soft serve cone, three kinds of shakes, and chocolately-chip cookies
        And to drink a Coca-Cola, Diet Coke, an orange drink, a Sprite,
        A coffee (decaf too) a lowfat milk also an orange juice
        I love Mcdonald's good time great taste
        And I get this all at one place!
        The good time, great taste... of McDonald's...

        ugh.

  • This is no good for consumers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by seldolivaw ( 179178 ) <me@seldo.DALIcom minus painter> on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:24PM (#3177882) Homepage
    Okay, so have they invented a flexible CD? Not really. All they've done is separated the data layer from the rigid plastic layer, so that people will hopefully own only a few of the rigid "adapters" and loads of the data-handling flexCDs. FlexCDs are (a) easier to break than ordinary CDs (because there's no plastic layer protecting the thin data layer, and (b) place more of the cost of playing CDs on the consumer, since producers won't have to pay for the adapters after a while.
  • To carry my basic software toolkit, I have a 200 CD
    folio which is packed. I have to carry this 10-lb
    bag with me across the country all too often. A
    recordable flexible DVD folio with the same data
    would come in closer to 1/2 pound, and tuck into
    my laptop case. I'm hoping this progresses to
    DVD recordable in short order!

  • Performance at high RPM? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Ogerman ( 136333 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @05:31PM (#3177909)
    Since they're less rigid and have less total mass to 'average out' any irregularities, what happens when there's a small variation that slightly unbalances the disc? This wouldn't affect audio players, but I wonder if their stability would be insufficient to handle much higher speeds. I didn't see any specs on average maximum read speed.
    • Since they're less rigid and have less total mass to 'average out' any irregularities, what happens when there's a small variation that slightly unbalances the disc?

      I think the issue is not so much if there's an imbalance in the disc to begin with, but that the centrifugal force at high rotational speeds is enough in itself to warp the disk. IIRC, when the CD was introduced, Philips estimated the maximum speed at something like 48X. This has turned out to be pretty accurate - note that today's CDROMs have only been able to significantly break this barrier by using multi-beam heads at lower rotational speeds. I have to admit though - I don't know if they did that just to reduce noise/wear/cost, or whether it was due to the mechanical limits of the CD.
  • ... can be found here [flexstorm.com].

  • homecd (Score:2, Interesting)

    by bigattichouse ( 527527 )
    I remember a c-source project called homeCD that would print a postscript image of data sent to it as an ISO image, so you could literally print a REALLY low-data CD on anything, even paper... a few meg at best... you could print on transparency and back with foil for the same affect. Hope they haven't tried to patent the idea.
  • I think that the CD has to be quite flat for the laser to stay focused. So I assume that their adapter sandwiches the flex disk between two sheets of plastic. (This should also settle the questions about weight and balance -- the adapter is going to be the same thickness and very nearly same weight as a normal CD.) But get a little dust on it, and the disk is no longer flat inside the sandwich...
    • From the do-it-yourself dept :)

      How about using one of those clear bulk CDR protectors (basically CD disks with no media layer) on either side, and i fneeded a bit of stickum in the middle to hold 'em together?

  • specs converted from pdf to html (Score:4, Informative)

    by Khopesh ( 112447 ) on Sunday March 17, 2002 @06:33PM (#3178094) Homepage Journal
    in case you hate pdfs that could easily be done in html, adobe has a pdf->html [adobe.com] page.

    here's the specs in html [adobe.com].

    basically, there are two flexCDs, named 80 and 120 for their sizes in milimeters. The 8cm disk holds 200mb and the 12cm disk holds an unspecified amount (hopefully 702mb). each disk is 1/10th the thickness of a cd. standard minicd is 8cm and standard cd is 12cm. a 3.5" floppy is 9cm x 9.4cm.

    the adapter has two parts which sandwich the flexCD and go in the non-supporting cdrom drive.

  • Serious benfits? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fatgraham ( 307614 )
    What are the real benifits of a flexible cd? we dont need jewel cases to keep them straight? they surely cant take up any less space, roll a bit of cardboard up, does it now take up less space? i thought not.

    aside from frisbee related injuries, i cant see any benifit, just as i couldnt see any point to flexible keyboards (i never had a wobbly desk, and if i did, id take a power sander to it)
  • Now I reckon that if you put the "foil" in a tray CD player and just put a normal CD on top, it would spinup just fine most of the time.

    One wonders the extent to which they will try and engineer the requirement for the addapter into the system, if homebrew adapters (even if the above idea wont work) are frowned upon then we know for which side of that fence the system is designed.

    Personally I reckon they'ed be happy if they could get it to work adapter free, we shall have to wait and see.

  • DRM included. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by segfaultdot ( 462810 )
    Be cautious [flexstorm.com]:

    flexRights
    An innovative solution that allows content owners to offer a "test drive" of their premium content to the market for a limited time. New markets will benefit greatly from this service. A music company can "give" a customer an entire CD of a chart- topping artist for a week. After that week, the digital encryption technology "locks" the music, leaving the consumer with the choice of going online to pay and "unlock" the music, or purchasing the rigid CD from the store. flexRights can also be used with Video and software content.

  • Archive Performance Ratios (Score:3, Insightful)

    by 4of12 ( 97621 ) on Monday March 18, 2002 @11:14AM (#3180895) Homepage Journal

    It would be interesting to know how this technology compares in terms of

    1. $/GB
    2. GB/kg
    3. GB/cm3
    as an archive media versus magnetic disks and DLT.

    Perhaps the biggest drawback may be sheer capacity. I swear that a 600 MB CD is getting to be as useless as a 1.44 MB floppy relative to how much data needs to be archived.

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