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Technology

Solar Surgery 255

Posted by michael from the burning-ants dept.
Chris writes "Scientists in Israel have developed a device based on a concave dish that intensifies sunlight by a factor of 15,000. By focusing this light into an optical fiber and delivering it to an operating theatre, the team says its solar-surgery setup promises to be a low-cost alternative to laser surgery." Everyone who used to operate on GI Joe figures with a magnifying glass is cheering for this to be commercially successful.
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Solar Surgery More

Solar Surgery

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  • Poor anthills. (Score:4, Funny)

    by Typingsux ( 65623 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:42PM (#4127168)
    Will we see the eradication of ants by bored suburban kids?

  • And what happens when it's cloudy?

  • Great.... (Score:5, Funny)

    by digitalamish ( 449285 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:42PM (#4127174)
    Now I only have to hope my surgery doesn't get rained out.
    --
    "That's Homer Simpson sir. One of your drones from secotr 7G."

  • Bad idea (Score:3, Funny)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:43PM (#4127177)
    Middle of surgery a cloud rolls in front of sun.
    Doctor:Oh shit!
    Nurse:Doctor, it looks like we won't have sunlight for another 20 mintues.
    Patient:Can I get some more anestesia then?

    • Rare occurence (Score:2, Funny)

      by T-Kir ( 597145 )

      What about the opposite?

      A surge in sunlight (solar flare, whatever else)...

      Doctor: Oh shit!

      Nurse: Doctor, it looks like you've gone through the patient, and through the operating desk, and floor. And the blood is pouring down into the coffee vending machine on the next floor! (sorry about the morbidness of that last bit)

      Patient: (not very well at the moment, and not saying anything)

      • Not a problem. Well, the blood wouldn't be. That much heat would sear the wound. Maybe a drop or two would seep out but a beam that powerful would seal the wound very well.

    • Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Total_Wimp ( 564548 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:00PM (#4127367)
      I can't help but wonder that if regular concentrated sunlight can produce good results then can regular concentrated incandescent or fluorescent lights also produce good results. It seems to me that this is a spread-spectrum vs. coherent light proof-of-concept since there's nothing particularly special about sunlight itself (other than being free and bright) My guess is that manmade lights would still save lots of money over lasers but you could work 'em in the basement at midnight. TW
      • _OR_ you could unplug the light array and plug in your normal surgical laser, KISS.

      • Re:Bad idea (Score:4, Insightful)

        by evilpenguin ( 18720 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:37PM (#4127667)
        I'm afraid there are several special things about sunlight. One of them is that, like laser light, it is a coherent beam (all the rays are parallel). Actually, it isn't really, but we are so far from the sun, its rays are effectively parallel; the divergence is so small as to not matter. This allows the light to be concentrated and thus the power effectively amplified. You can't do this with light from other sources. That light scatters in all directions and thus a lens or mirror will deflect the light at various angles. You can't concentrate it at a point. That's the whole reason the laser was such an important invention.

        On a totally different (but slightly relevant) subject: Does anyone else remember being subjected to a dopey little song in elementary school that began:

        "The sun is a mass/of incandescent gas/a giant nuclear furnace..."

        If you do remember a dopey little song like that, how does the rest of it go? (In case you are frightened of violating the DMCA, this would fall under fair use. If not, well, we could become a wonderful test case for the EFF or ACLU!).
        • I don't know about elementary school, but it looks like a They Might Be Giants Song. http://www.crosswinds.net/~lyricsarchive/round7/gr eg7.html [crosswinds.net]
      • Incandescents MIGHT work, but you'd need a bank of them to replace the sunlight. The sun is over 83,100 lumens [geocities.com], and a 100W bulb is 136 lumens, so that's 612 bulbs.
    • Or

      "Nurse, you never told me about this eclipse."
  • Humm... Sun Light? Does anyone else see a problem with this? This machine sounds like the Skin Cancer 2000.

    • Re:Skin Cancer (Score:4, Informative)

      by Bonker ( 243350 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:48PM (#4127246)
      If I undestand correctly, (and physics majors please correct me) UV radition is not transmitted along with color light radiation when light is reflected (by most reflective materials). Instead, it's absorbed by the reflecting material and transferred into heat. Therefore, what reaches the patient has no damaging UV component.

      • Re:Skin Cancer (Score:3, Informative)

        by Xeriar ( 456730 )
        There are type of glass that aren't transmittive very far into the UV spectrum. Many materials we think of as transparent are merely 'filters' for our own visual spectrum, like a red light filter, for example.

      • Re:Skin Cancer (Score:2, Interesting)

        by pdp11e ( 555723 )
        The article mentions "concave dish" signifying that we are dealing with the reflective optics. Assuming that the mirror is Al coated (very reasonable assumption), we are talking about 90% or more of UV reflectivity. Some posts in this thread were referring to a "different focal lengths" which is non-applicable to the reflective objective (there is no chromatic aberration in the absence of dispersive media). Now the fiber light guide is a completely different proposition. It is probably not UV transparent though it might be. Anyway it is trivial to filter out UV if desired. That finally brings us to the cancer risks associated with the possible UV irradiation. The mechanism that triggers cancer growth involves cell mutation due to the photo-dissociation of the DNA. But it is also necessary that the mutated cell survives and produces a new generation of (now) tumor cells. With highly focused radiation of the "light knife" it is highly unlikely that any of the irradiated cells can survive.
    • Just cover the lens with something that blocks the UV component.
    • This machine sounds like the Skin Cancer 2000.

      In the sense that it vaporizes the targetted cells before they have a chance to become cancerous, yes, you're absolutely right.

  • Won't work (Score:5, Funny)

    by Mantorp ( 142371 ) <mantorp 'funny A' gmail.com> on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:44PM (#4127203) Homepage Journal
    Since operations now can only take place on sunny days, surgeons won't be able to golf as much.
    • Smithers: Well, Sir, you've certainly vanquished all your enemies: the Elementary School, the local tavern, the old age home...you must be very proud.

      Burns: [stuffing money into his wallet] No, not while my greatest nemesis still provides our customers with free light, heat and energy. I call this enemy...the sun.

  • Cheaper than Frikin laser beams!
    • Although the parent post was meant to be humourous, the point may be valid. In areas where power is unreliable, and equipment is expensive, something like this might be (if you'll pardon the expression) just what the doctor ordered.
  • I'm sure you'll all slam me if I'm wrong,
    but doesn't laser surgery use specify frequencies of light to localise the burning amongst other things?
    • well yes, laser surgury often does use a specific band of light to target types of tissue and avoid (and in fact in some cases pass strait through) other tissue.
      However, as an avid user of surplus crap, there are LOTS of materials that can filter all but a specific wavelength of light (say you ONLY want red light, or blue light, or maybe you JUST want red light filtered out) and I would think that if you wanted a specific spectrum of light, you'd just slap on the appropriate filters and KAZZAM you've got the correct wavelength for those difficult to treat tumors/warts/nasal cavity lodged cheesie poofs.
    • There are several ways to solve this, and one of them is extremely clever. Let the light pass though a lens (rather than strictly using mirrors for all your lenses). Different frequencies (colors) of light will refract slightly differently (well, the ones off-axis), unless you have chosen the lens material carefully to avoid this. (Yes, think of the pretty rainbow that a prism makes from sunlight.) These different colors will focus at different distances from that lens. By positioning the end of the optic fiber at different distances from the lens, you selectively pick up different wavelengths.

      There was a Japanese company, which made (makes?) large sun-tracking Fresnel lenses, for placement on rooftops. At the focus of the lens, an optic fiber (maybe more of a light-pipe) collected the light, for piping into your building, so that you could have sunlight in your house. They took advantage of this spectrum-separating effect to exclude UV and IR as desired from the pipe.
      (Those systems, although certainly quite a fine nerd-toy, were ghastly expensive, IMO. Sorry.)

  • great (Score:3, Funny)

    by Jonny Ringo ( 444580 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:45PM (#4127216)
    if you live anywhere but Seattle.

    • Re:great (Score:2, Funny)

      by smcn ( 87571 )
      Reminds me of a t-shirt I had when I was a kid.

      "In Washington, you don't get a tan, you get rusty"

  • GI Goe! (Score:5, Funny)

    by American AC in Paris ( 230456 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:46PM (#4127224) Homepage
    Everyone who used to operate on GI Joe figures with a magnifying glass is cheering for this to be commercially successful.

    ...I used to 'operate' on GI Joe figurines with firecrackers wedged into the rubber-band spinal cord.

    When do we get to see the real-world equivalent of that?

  • They best be putting those giant "WARNING: Sunshine in use" sirens up everywhere they use this.. There's a reason we stay underground...

  • Perfect Target Market! (Score:3, Funny)

    by cybermace5 ( 446439 ) <g.ryan@macetech.com> on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:50PM (#4127269) Homepage Journal

    This is a great invention for Vegans...all their cooking must be done in the sun. Now they have a natural alternative to pollution-spewing lasers.

    Maybe now I can finally get that extra-dark tan I want.
  • http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/games/showca rds/A/ant_city.html

  • Mobile Surgery (Score:3, Insightful)

    by InnovATIONS ( 588225 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:52PM (#4127285)
    It seems to me that the real importance of this is the ability to be able to have a mobile surgery suite that can be taken to places where reliable electrical power does not exist, or perhaps field surgical hospitals in disaster areas. And yes, that IS big news to the poster that suggested that this was somehow misdirected priorities.

  • Best where electrical power is questionable.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by King_TJ ( 85913 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:52PM (#4127292) Journal
    Despite all the jokes on here about it, I think it has applications in 3rd. world countries where reliable electrical power isn't a given.

    In countries like the United States, every hospital has backup power generators, uninterrupted power supplies, and so forth -- on top of being connected to a pretty reliable power grid. I can't see someone choosing sunlight over an electrically powered laser beam for surgery. The greater initial expense of the laser is quickly offset by money lost on surgeries that couldn't be performed due to weather conditions.

    In a relatively undeveloped country, however, this might make a lot of sense! It could give new options to doctors who simply couldn't count on a laser-based setup to function reliably, or couldn't afford it to begin with.
    • not to mention this allows the military to move their hospital units a lot closer to the lines (which is good for multiple reasons, including helping humans survive), and gives them less of a logistical tail (who needs fuel for generators when you can use sunlight)
    • In a relatively undeveloped country, however, this might make a lot of sense! It could give new options to doctors who simply couldn't count on a laser-based setup to function reliably, or couldn't afford it to begin with.

      Yes, like Palestine. The Israeli government could get PR points by making the technology available in the West Bank and Gaza.

      Of course, then they'd setup military checkpoints and not allow Palestinians access to it. Then they'd start bulldozing hospitals with the excuse that they housed military laser technology.

      Bush won't approve of the whole thing because it has something to do with solar technology. Long discussions with his advisors will then be required to explain to him why we can't just drill in national parks and focus petroleum for surgery.
    • Despite all the jokes on here about it... scalpels.

      In a relatively undeveloped country, this would make a lot of sense!

  • It is interesting to use concentrated sunlight for surgery, but electricity is still a more reliable way to generate light. I would imagine that some high intensity incandescent lights could be concentrated similar to sunlight, and woundn't be dependent on weather and the earth's rotation.

    Where this technology might be useful is in remote areas where electricity is not available. But where electricity is plentiful, this technology seems more like a novelty, like "Sun Tea".

  • Wavelengths (Score:3, Informative)

    by barista ( 587936 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:53PM (#4127299) Homepage
    The article was a little short on details. I work for some ophthalmologists, and they use different types of lasers for different purposes. The way it was explained to me, the main differences were in the wavelengths they use. Excimer lasers are good for LASIK and such, while argon or krypton lasers are used for retinal repairs. Carbon dioxide produces an infrared laser for photocoagulation or for cutting.

    Since it's still in the nascent stage,it will be interesting to see what they eventually come up with, especially if they can isolate different wavelengths.

  • common sense? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tomstdenis ( 446163 ) <tomstdenis AT gmail DOT com> on Friday August 23, 2002 @12:54PM (#4127312) Homepage
    To all you lame yuppy idiots replying with "oh its cloudy" here are some questions you should have asked

    1. What is the annual amount of sunshine where this is to be used? [hint: chances are its high]

    2. What is the cost of this device and its use say versus the laser setup [hint: chances are their low] .........

    Tom
  • sergon in the second grade. before i even knew it!! had i realized that i coulda made some serious lunch money. well, i guess i put in my pro-bono time.

    if it took them a med-school degree to figure that out maybe i need to start a med-school too. after all, i know all about mag glasses and insects, GI joes... by grade school. talk about the brains!! now all i need to add is the damn optical fiber. I even injected frogs with ink. how many years before *they* figure that one??
  • Doctor: "Nurse what happened? I just hit him with a small burst of sun light and he went up in flames."

  • I think the obivous issues with clouds and night issues and such will cause some serious issues with the usefulness of this. What surgeon wants a tool that only works 4-6 hours during the day, assuming there aren't any clouds. I don't want my surgery to be schedualed depending on the weather.

  • Solar flare. (Score:5, Funny)

    by reality-bytes ( 119275 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:04PM (#4127401) Homepage
    All you need is a good size, unexpected, solar flare during an operation and 6 hours later the surgeons will be trying to explain to you why you now have a second rectum! :)

    You smell something burning?.......
    • All you need is a good size, unexpected, solar flare during an operation and 6 hours later the surgeons will be trying to explain to you why you now have a second rectum! :)

      Hmmm. I wonder if goatse was a test volunteer.

  • Obligatory Simpsons Quote (Score:5, Funny)

    by Raul654 ( 453029 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:06PM (#4127427) Homepage
    Hibbert: This is such a beautiful day, I don't know why we don't operate outside more often.

    [Tennis ball falls from sky into open wound, ECG flatlines]

    Hibbert: Time of death.. 10:15.
    • Smithers: Well, Sir, you've certainly vanquished all your enemies: the Elementary School, the local tavern, the old age home...you must be very proud.

      Burns: [stuffing money into his wallet] No, not while my greatest nemesis still provides our customers with free light, heat and energy. I call this enemy...the sun.

      And now Monty can add free surgery to the list of services provided by his nemesis!
  • Forget about ants, I want to cook chicken. Do you think that those guys were practicing on dead chicken breasts, and not eating the results?

  • Lighting your office (Score:4, Interesting)

    by gouldtj ( 21635 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:07PM (#4127438) Homepage Journal
    I've always wondered about the idea of having natural light in a large building. I wonder if you could concentrate the light this much, it would be economical to run one 'super fiber' down 30 stories, then split it out. I would love being able to get natural light instead of the flourecent stuff...

    • Well that would require some sort of a Rebigulator which is a concept so ridiculous it makes me want to laugh out loud and chortle...

    • Re:Lighting your office (Score:4, Informative)

      by mbessey ( 304651 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @04:06PM (#4129242) Homepage Journal
      Here's something close [solatube.com] -Mark
      • A guy I work with has these in his house. He absolutely loves them. He says that the amazing part is how much light they concentrate to really brighten things up. Even at dusk they still put out alot of light. He also likes that they don't pull through alot of heat (we live in Phoenix) and that they are more private than skylights.

  • Boon for the third world... sorta (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Embedded Geek ( 532893 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:08PM (#4127443) Homepage
    So, as I understand it, we're talking about a laser analoge that needs no electrical infrastructure, should require little or no maintenance, and should be relatively cheap to mass produce. For certain procedures, this will be a real boon for poor countries.

    There are limits, though. The thing that a laser is real good for is high precision procedures (think Lasik) that will still require all the infrastructure to operate robotic machinery (computer, electrical power, etc.) Also, the big health issue in real poor countries is access to sanitation, trained health care workers, and vaccines (on that last, say what you will about Bill Gates, but he recognizes his philanthropy is better spent on vaccines [gatesfoundation.org] than PDAs and gizmos for third world hospitals - the knee juerk techno solution I would've lunged at).

    Still, this is a great development. Will it completely change health care in poor coutnries? No. But it is another (very useful) tool in the toolbox for health care in poor countries.

    • Bill Gates, but he recognizes his philanthropy is better spent on vaccines [gatesfoundation.org]

      God always warned about gifts from Satan.

      In any case, Gates spends a few million a year on such charity endeavors. This is the equivalent to you or I spending about $3 a year on charity, scaling income and wealth down using a simple ratio.
      • Actually, I've heard this argument before and crunched some numbers after hearing a story on NPR about modern philanthropy. He's well behind the number one philanthropist, a guy who is driven to spend as much of his few hundred million on charity (he was running around 50% of his income into causes every year). Gates ranked number three, giving a couple of percent (I can't remember the exact number but it was not "$3 a year") of his income each year. (And,yes, I only count income - I wouldn't expect anyone to give an anual percentage of their assets)

        My reaction was like yours... then I looked at my own giving. I don't go to church, so I don't put money in the plate every week like my folks did. I give stuff to Goodwill and gave my old Honda to Red Cross last year, but in truth that's just to get rid of clutter around the house. Yeah, I buy girl scout cookies, and susbscribe to PBS, but those are hardly acts of philanthropy in my book, 'cause I'm getting a tangible, immediate gain. Occasionally I cut a check to a charity, but it really isn't that much. Looking at my tax returns, it was well under 1%.

        The fact is, I believe my giving is representative of most Americans who don't regularly go to church or temple or are intimately involved with a specific charity (little league coach, etc). He's giving a larger slice than many people are and he's putting it towards a very sensible cause with the vaccines (and, no, I don't defend him giving Windows away in the schols, so don't harp on that). Even if Bill is just giving 5% for the tax write off, who am I to judge him?

        The moral: You can condemn Gates on any number of issues, bith as a businessman and a technologist, but he's a lot more complex than the simple good/evil labels we humans love so much.

        • Gates has said he will give away an actual percentage of his assets.

          His goal, I think, is to have given most everything away before he dies (though that will likely include endowing institutions which will outlive him)

          We will see what comes to pass, but I think he will go a long way to dispersing his wealth. He got a lot of bad press about his record with giving. Some people tried to shame him by comparing him to his late mother , but I am not sure it was fair. Gates strikes me as a very focused and involved person. I can't imagine him disposing of large portions of his capital without being very involved in the process. But at the time he was very involved with Microsoft.

  • This is like a WMD against the ant community. (Then again, so is a shoe).
  • It burns!
  • We won't be able to perform that emergency bypass operation until daylight.

    But we're in Alaska!

    Yes Sir, and that means we only have to wait another couple of weeks.
  • I wonder how they keep problems like a sudden cloud... or worse yet, a roosting pigeon, from suddenly blocking the light.

    I'd hate to be *under the knife* when a bird suddenly cuts off my source of light.

    I'd also like to be assured, before they put me under, that they can complete the operation while the sun is still up. "I'm sorry sir... but there was this bird... and, well... and then the sun went down... and... well... oh well.".

  • Would someone doing a rain dance during surgery be charged with attempted murder?

  • Isn't it ironic? (Score:4, Funny)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:39PM (#4127683) Homepage Journal
    You could get skin cancer while having skin cancer removed.

  • Solex Agitator stolen! (Score:3, Funny)

    by ByTor-2112 ( 313205 ) on Friday August 23, 2002 @01:51PM (#4127831)
    This just in. Device prototype stolen by lone assassin who charges $1 million her hit. British secret service sending their top agent to retrieve.

  • SPF 15,000 Sunscreen??
  • Why not just use the sunlight for powering a laser via solar cells instead? You get just the wavelength you want, and could conceivably have a battery backup.

  • uv? (Score:2)

    by ddt ( 14627 )
    Doesn't that increase your UV radiation exposure by a factor of 15,000X, too? Sounds like a cancer risk to me unless they have a filter for that.

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