Automakers to Make Diagnostic Codes Available 185
Rubbersoul writes "As reported on /. a few months ago independent auto repair shops are a bit tense about not having access to car computer diagnostic codes. Well it seems that now the auto makers will share these codes after all. According to an article at CNN the codes will be available to all professional mechanics as well as amateurs working out of their garage at home. Good to see the auto makers came around on this one, even if it did take Congress to help a bit."
Mod Chips (Score:1)
NO (Score:2)
Re:Mod Chips (Score:1)
No, since those who are competent already know. I am am afraid of those who are just now thinking of joining the business... Already too much black sheeps out there. Hell, I think the whole car chipmod community consists of black sheeps with a few whites outlaws among them...
Old news no? (Score:2)
That Check Engine light was the most annoying thing! When was it lighted, I'd never know if it was signaling 30 seconds to warp-core breach or just a glitched oxygen sensor aft of the catalytic converter. The damned "owner's manual" was pretty vague about it, like "Check Engine: Check Engine". Garages can plug into a port, get it in text, then make "expensive engine repair" noises.
We already had access to the diagnostic codes..... (Score:1)
Re:We already had access to the diagnostic codes.. (Score:2)
Re:We already had access to the diagnostic codes.. (Score:1)
I highly doubt that you're going to enlighten much of the
I drive a Subaru Outback, in America, and I only use Linux...
Re:We already had access to the diagnostic codes.. (Score:2, Informative)
you still are not going to get them free, but they will be availiable in updates some day before we all die to professional test readers.
presumably this will also include the equivalent to the "mode 4" international code for the wacko ones. "mode 4" is also known as "reset," turns out the $$$ light on the dash.
wanna check out scanners, including build-your-own, try
http://www.batauto.com/technical/scaninfo.shtml
and for code lists for specific cars, try
http://www.batauto.com/technical/
and click what you want. as usual, you get what you pay for, no deposit no return, use at your own risk, etc. etc.
A big Deal (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a bigger deal because it means that people publishing the codes will no longer face the prospect of being sued for posting it and means that, in this case at least, the auto makers (with pressure from congress) decided that public good out weighed copyright law.
Re:A big Deal (Score:2)
[It] means that, in this case at least, the auto makers (with pressure from congress) decided that public good out weighed copyright law.
It's more likely that they believed that, had they not done this, congress would have found a way to open it forcibly in the interest of free trade or something.
Re:A big Deal (Score:3, Insightful)
But the dealerships start to be at opposition with the manufacturers when warranty claims are made. Perhaps they got too much opposition and sowered the OEMs a bit too much!?
Cheaper? (Score:2)
Which means that private mechanics will charge more to analyze the codes since they have to pay a "reasonable price" which negates:
Some automakers felt more comfortable giving the information to their dealerships, which must keep the data confidential under franchise contracts. That often meant higher costs to consumers, since dealer labor rates tend to run $10 to $20 per hour higher than independent shops, according to AAA.
Unless, of course, someone creates something like carwarez.com
Re:Cheaper? (Score:1)
You can bet that the internet enthusiast groups (RX-7s, Z cars, DSMs, Whorevettes, F-bodies, etc) will share this sort of stuff among themselves. Hell...we're already doing PDFs of entire shop manuals and such...and somebody had to scan 1000 pages front and back for that to happen....this looks like it will already be in a digital format, ready to pirate...err...share that is.
we fear change (Score:1)
Re:we fear change (Score:1)
well of course. He has plans for the microsoft car [uni-oldenburg.de]
Block Exemption Changes in Europe (Score:2, Informative)
This means a number of major changes in the industry including the right for independent motor dealers to buy directly from manufacturers (as franchise dealers do now), and for them to have the right to the information required to service these vehicles at a fair price.
Some more info on this is available here [osborneclarke.com].
Cool (Score:2)
Re:Cool (Score:1)
Depends on the error message...
"'PC Load Letter'? What the fuck does that mean?!" -Office Space
Its about time (Score:1)
And i really dont want to hear about 'use license'.. its mine. i paid for it.
Re:Its about time (Score:1)
If i fork out $ for a 'box'. its mine and all that it takes to make it work.
If i lease a box, or a service ( like cable tv ).. then different story.. But im talking purchasing it in my rant.
Once it enters my home i refuse to allow anyone else to dictate what i do with it.
If YOU want to follow letter of law, no i dont have a 'right' to reverse engineer.. rememeber DMCA?
However i wont
This is a Good Thing (TM) (Score:2, Interesting)
There has been a recent trend in mom'n'pop (well just pop usually) mechanic stores fading away because of big companies sucking up all the businness. Ever seen those commercials that compare Joe Blow mechanic to a big time Jiffy Lube or NTB buff? Notice how the mechanic is portrayed as a greasy hungover hobo, and the friendly neighborhood WalMart-of-cars mechanic is clean cut, muscular, educated, and reviewing what appears to be a concise list of repairs with the client. I'm not against corporations coming to town on a political level, but it stinks to drive out in the country and seeing mom'n'pop stores taken over. And with all of the computer chips and advanced parts requiring really expensive tools to fix, it's nice to see something to go against that trend and empower the small guys again ;)
music (Score:1, Interesting)
I'm not sure I follow... (Score:3, Informative)
The OBD-II Homepage [obdii.com]
OBD-II Codes [about.com]
OBD is an interface standard (Score:4, Informative)
What the codes mean is the point.
Re:OBD is an interface standard (Score:2, Informative)
Seems the feds figured that if they "required" every vehcile manufacture to use the OBD-II physical interface, they would all be standard.
Sad thing is most manufactures pin out on the interface is different.
Re:OBD is an interface standard (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I'm not sure I follow... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:I'm not sure I follow... (Score:2)
This is not source Code. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:This is not source Code. (Score:2)
As in windows the codes require a bit of "interpretation." ala the Book of Daniel...
Guess What? (Score:1, Troll)
Re:Guess What? (Score:2)
Next to Useless (Score:5, Insightful)
The codes will be USELESS to a mechanic. A mechanic needs a "TOOL." A mechanic is not a programmer or engineer. He will still pay $300 for the tool to read the codes. he will still pay $100 per 'module' for each car's codes he wants to read.
He can do that now. So the hope is that more tools will be developed and that will bring the cost of the tools down.
Don't confuse this with any ability to modify anything. These will be read only idiot codes like "o2 is out of range" or "Low Voltage."
It still takes a good mechanic to find the problem and often, VERY DAMN OFTEN, the codes are simply misleading the mechanic when his nose and ears have already given him the answer.
Re:Next to Useless (Score:2, Informative)
Agreed: the biggest advantage will be a general price reduction, hopefully.
While the codes are generally useless to a good mechanic, the ability to reset them on many models is the tough part. Among others, BMW was notorious for this. I haven't worked on one for a while, but the "service reset tool" was DOD expensive, and a total scam.
Re:Next to Useless (Score:1)
My friends thought it was silly to see me put my key in and move it back and forth really quick when I installed a new O2 sensor once.. heh. Ohh well.
Not So! (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the same stuff Free Software Philosophy seeks to fight: closed systems that take rights away from the user. You bought the car....why can't you figure out what is wrong with it on your own if you choose to do so? Why do automakers want to keep your property a secret from you?
NOT NECESSARILY Re:Next to Useless (Score:1)
if you can't hear, if you can't see, if you are colorblind and chasing wiring, you have some handicaps in the way of fixing a car. same for not having the diag codes from the modules.
none of this has anything to do with reverse-engineering the real-time process code in any of the modules, or using the airbag controller as a circumvention device so you can play DVDs over the heads-up display. it is the equivalent of self-diagnosing system outputs like S.M.A.R.T on hard disks.
Re:Next to Useless (Score:3, Informative)
The OBD-II codes have been around and they are helpful for the most part. What has been needed are the non-standard manufacturer specific codes.
I wish I could purchase a good scan tool that would work on the major brands for $300. With software, leads, and adapters for domestic only I think our Mastertech package was over $2,800. That's domestic only, no imports, and it is never current. I'm just now getting updated for 2002 model year vehicles.
You are correct that it still takes a good mechanic to find the problem. A good mechanic stays current with his training. Todays mechanic is not a programmer, but he is a technician.
Using the scan tool to read diagnostic codes won't tell the mechanic exactly where the problem is. He has to know the systems well enough to understand what the on board computer is telling him. The ability to read the real time data stream is important too, maybe even more important than knowing waht the diagnostic codes mean.
It is important to understand how the on board computer arrived at the diagnostic code. You have to know what test is run, how it is run, and what the conditions for the test are. If you don't have that information then you are correct, the codes will be misleading.
There is a Tool Call AutoTAP and OBDII scanners (Score:5, Informative)
I have all the Codes for my Grand Prix GTP.
Yes A lot of people mod their cars, reprogramming the PCM or ECU can give you more HP and remove speed limiter etc.
I'm one of those guy who tweak on the cars, i'll be setting DTC's left and right, i just use autotap and look up the code and do the necessary correction to fix the problem.
Sometime friend who have Service Engine Soon light on their late model car I tap in and check out the code (Which cost $75 at the shop) so we'll get idea on the problem with the car before we take it to the shop.
There are palm size code readers and scan tools also.
Look for multiline, serial gauges that coming out in a few month that let you monitor various parameters of your OBD II car and they're reprogrammable too with serial interface.
GNU Automake (Score:4, Funny)
I best cut down on the wine I think...
Re:GNU Automake (Score:1)
But what would getting rid of windows apps help with?
Ohhh, wait a second....
Re:GNU Automake (Score:1)
Incidentally, why do people think it's cool to comment that others are morons with no life? Do you honestly think people care or actually don't realize that by posting that, you yourself admit that in reality, you're really a moron with no life?
Will it have hidden commands like the R2D2 robot? (Score:1, Funny)
Select first, third, then fifth gear, then turn on the radio = "Call Princess Leia on my cell phone"
Doubtless you can make up others
Re:Will it have hidden commands like the R2D2 robo (Score:2)
Corps are shafting us again (Score:4, Funny)
Never mind.
Just keep on driving (Score:1, Troll)
My beat-up Chevy Celebrity has had that yellow "Service Engine Soon" light on for years, and it runs just fine.
The whole thing is nothing but government waste, as there's a lot more pressing issues at hand than forcing companies to publish every single detail of their trade secrets.
Re:Just keep on driving (Score:1)
Re:Just keep on driving (Score:2)
Re:Just keep on driving (Score:1)
The "check engine" light is there to tell you that a sensor is malfunctioning/out of spec. Something IS wrong with your car and it will probably cost you more $$$ in the end. Just because a car "runs" doesn't mean that there are no problems. Often the sensor codes are triggered during specific events such as heavy acceleration/hot/cold engine that won't show up while idling so emmissions and other basic testing likely won't indicate any problems. Under some circumstances, the engine may even be operating under "open loop" which means that it is ignoring most sensor data and instead using factory established default values in order to keep running.
Considerable fault-tolerant design goes into the computer control of modern engines. For safety reasons, they will continue running as best they can despite significant problems. (except over-heat conditions which could cause fire)
By driving with an engine out of spec, you may quickly wear out your expensive catalytic converter... or worse. A car will most often pass state emmisions tests just so long as the catalytic converter is not used up. The garage could get true diagnostic readings at the O2 sensor, not at the tail pipe.
The code may also indicate a transmission fault that may be eating away fuel economy and cause transmission overheating such as if the "torque-converter clutch" isn't locking properly.
BTW, on most american cars, there is a "trick" to get the car to read back the fault code without an expensive scanner. These days, many parts stores such as "Advance Auto" will also read-out the codes for free.
The government's role here is to reduce pollution and improve highway/vehicle safety. By giving more people access to the diagnostic information(most of which has been "hacked" already), it means that on average, cars will operate better since fewer problems will be ignored.
Don't just keep driving... also, flip a switch. (Score:3, Insightful)
The Chevy Sprint and Geo Metro and other Chevy cars of that vintage had a blinking "check engine" light, which would go on automatically as soon as you hit 30,000 miles, and each 30,000 miles, after that.
This was a result of a single-pole, double throw switch in the odometer. There was also a single-pole double-throw switch inside the fuse area (below and two the left of the steering wheel). In other words, a standard two location three-way switch assembly.
The "corrective" action for the blinky light was to bring the car into the dealer, pay them a lot of money for "scheduled maintenance", and whatever engine parts they happened to have an excess of in inventory in their parts department that month.
And for them to toggle the position of the switch in the fuse holder, to turn off the blinky light until you'd gone another 30,000 miles.
Hooray for blinky lights that get people to spend money at the dealer!
-- Terry
Re:Just keep on driving (Score:1)
Watch out! "check engine" light can fail emissions (Score:1)
His "check engine" light had been on for quite a while. He had taken it to a mechanic to see what the problem was when it first came on. The mechanic said that code was for evaporative and the reason was that the gas cap wasn't on tight enough. Well, he cranked the gas cap tight from then on, but the light came right back on.
He didn't give it anymore thought since he was tired of paying the mechanic $100 to "scan the codes". That is, until it came time for emissions inspection. My advice now, don't go to the emissions place if your "check engine" light is on, there is NO WAY you will pass, that's exactly what the tech's there told him. Anyway, disconnecting the battery for an hour or so clears the codes (at least for this car), so after he did that, he took the car back; rejected again, "sensor's aren't ready".
To make a long story short(er), a few trips to the mechanic and emissions place later, he's passed and has a new evaporative "switch" (parts $17, labor $40). This, of course, is after several $100 "diagnostic" fees.
So, watch out, some states have decided that they'd rather not test which cars are actually polluting beyond the regs, they'd rather screw over people whose cars are in spec.
====
TopoFusion [topofusion.com] GPS Mapping software featuring trail networks.
Re:Just keep on driving (Score:1)
Automake? (Score:1)
I wonder if the autoconfers will have anything to say about this.
Alan
Is this news? (Score:2)
Re:Is this news? (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, it is news. No, auto makers such as BMW and Volkswagen were not releasing the diagnostic codes. This made it impossible for non-dealer repair shops to diagnose a variety of problems on newer model cars.
My father is the supervisor of the auto shop at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, and he was very concerned about this, as they certainly don't want to have to outsource any repairs on their fleet. These days, much of the work in diagnosing car problems involves hooking up a computer to the car and asking the car's computer, "OK, what's not normal?". It's not quite that simple; you still have to know what you're doing in order to figure out what's wrong (not like a dialog box pops up and says, "Mass air flow sensor bad. Replace? Y/N).
Anyway, I spoke to my father today to make sure he had seen this article, and he said that basically the auto makers have said, "We promise to release the specs if you don't pass a law saying we have to do so." He doesn't really trust them, but is hopeful, and will wait and see.
Reprogramming the existing computer... (Score:1)
Automakers were concerned the legislation would require them to turn over the calibration codes...
The calibration codes would have been very usefull to the car hacker community. Too bad we can't make 'em give up the goods.
This is old news... (Score:2)
new mini-ITX car project? (Score:2)
I think in some systems you can get (and maybe set) your fuel-to-air ratio, which controls how rich your car is burning gas and to some extent power. Turbochargers are based on providing extra air flow allowing for more gas to also be mixed in.
Even if you can't stat your car on the fly, it would be quite cool to have the onboard PC able to do something other than play Mp3's.
I'd like to wire one into the speedometer and gas gauge, then have it calculate milage based on speed and the current fuel/air ratio.
Checksum error. Now terminating system: brakes - phorm
Re:new mini-ITX car project? (Score:3, Interesting)
We'll probably end up recording all the codes into a public mysql db that can be queried or integrated into the core code.
This would allow the UI to display the EXACT problem ("Your 3rd spark plug from the left is firing oddly - please check") instead of just "check engine". Very good news indeed.
Re:new mini-ITX car project? (Score:1)
I suppose the user will need to connect the mini-itx to the appropriate terminals, then simply enter his car make/model/year and it the rest will be done by freediag? I could help with an apache-webpage based interface, if you need assistance?
phormix at phormix dot com
Diagnostic code list: (Score:3, Funny)
CODE 0000-FFFF:
YOUR CAR IS BROKEN. BUY A NEW ONE.
New product idea (Score:3, Interesting)
Imagine: you're doing the monthly check, and discover that your mileage has suddenly dropped 10%. Even before something goes wrong, you could take it to a garage and give them strong diagnostic data.
When the time comes to sell the car, you can provide a day-to-day profile of the car's history: every oil change, fillup, and repair automatically logged. Real examples of winter vs summer and city vs. highway performance.
Seems to me that the technology is already available, and some of the functions are already in place. All that really needs to be done is for someone to hack together an interface. Any takers?
Re:New product idea (Score:1)
In-dash access (Score:2)
- had access to the engine diagnostics codes
- could override/modify some things (e.g. shut down one injector, select Canadian shift regime)
- had a summary screen that showed engine & transmission status
- let you access the body computer (e.g. heat, A/C).
I had hoped that was the coming thing, but they charged too much for the touch screen. The dealership was forthcoming with info on the codes, or you could buy the service manual at a reasonable price.Too bad. A great car, still looked good, my wife loved it, I could work on it, but we couldn't get parts to keep it on the road any more.
I much don't care... (Score:2)
I mean, my car is a lease. If there's any trouble whatsoever it goes back to the dealer for servicing. In fact, it's in their best interest not to fuck the car up since they have to cover repairs under warranty, and they have to buy the car back at the end of the lease. So long independent mechanic, I barely knew thee.
Although I'd probably be mad if I tinkered with cars in the same way I tinkered with computers and didn't have the open source equivalent.
Re:I much don't care... (Score:2)
Huh? If they mess the car up and it lowers the value YOU are on the hook for that amount. They had a set buyback value and mileage in your lease, if it is worth less and/or has more mileage, YOU pay for that, not them.
Appologies to Agent Smith... (Score:1)
Once my car is fixed, there's no need for me to be here. Do you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside my car's diagnostic mode. You have to tell me how...
this is very good (Score:1)
also i know a lot of people which has been same problems, actually one of my friend had his car just staying on the parking lot unrepaired because he couldn't get the schematics to fix the problem, he had his car sitting there over 6months until he gave up and took it to professional hands, he had it waiting there like 2months so that everything else had been repaired before he gaveup...
Stealing airbags? (Score:1)
Is my FUD-finder broken or am I missing something here?
Happening in Europe; EU standard EOBD (Score:2)
This months issue of Elektor Electronics [elektor-el...nics.co.uk] has full details on the interface, with next months issue presenting a do-it-yourself EOBD diagnosis adapter. They also do an OBD-2 to RS232 adapter for those geeks wanting to play using their laptop in true "The Fast 'n The Furious" style.
VAG-COM (Score:1)
Codes for motorcycles? (Score:1)
Not quite what you think.... (Score:1)
You folks just aren’t getting this (Score:2, Informative)
Do you understand? This is huge. Huge, huge. This is indeed the "opening" of the closed information source. It's as if MS agreed to open *all* proprietary informational resources (private KBs, training, diag tools, etc.) that were previously used only by their premier tech support reps.
Now will most mechanics avail themselves of this? Heck no. Most don't know or care how to truly troubleshoot; there are easier ways to flag hours that don't involve trying to convince a skeptical customer that you're not ripping them off.
But to those who love troubleshooting, this is manna from heaven. Take codes for example. An earlier poster said they were useless. If all you had was the description of the code, that's a correct statement.
However, if you also knew the exact criteria the PCM needed to see before throwing a code (this knowledge will be one of the takeaways from this act), you could then use your understanding of the proprietary system (a second takeaway) to straightforwardly troubleshoot and fix it.
Make sense? This is a hallmark day for savvy techs (or rather, August 31, 2003 will be <grin>).
Cheers,
-jm
Re:Trivia For Nerds, Stuff That Doesnt Matter (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:Hack your car (Score:2)
Re:Hack your car (Score:2)
Re:Hack your car (Score:4, Insightful)
Read the article.. (Score:2, Informative)
Believe it or not, that actually has a good bearing on if something is wrong with your car. People who fix their cars at home (or the car tuner) actually likes to look up what caused that Orange Light of Death, but from most car companies (most being the American ones) the code it displays is kept secret from small garages or individuals.
This allows the do-it-yourselfer or the entrepreneur garage to repair their vehicle with the aid of the vehicle. Score one for the little guys.
Re:Read the article.. (Score:2, Insightful)
There's a reason they're called "idiot lights", you know. :)
Olds Achieva (Score:1)
I've been getting by without it though;
(yes, I had the common cracked head gasket issue)
Re:Read the article.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Marge: Homer! The check engine light is on!
Homer: Ohhh no! The tape I put over it fell off.
Or something to that effect. Either way, it is highly probably your mechanic charged your $500 and did some fancy work and just disconnected the check engine light. It happens all the freaking time.
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Hack your car (Score:2)
Re:Hack your car (Score:2)
Hopefully said systems have a Lithium battery back-up that's more reliable than my PalmPilot's.
Re:Hack your car (Score:2)
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Hack your car (Score:1)
Re:Oh boy, open source cars!!! (Score:1)
"Worse - my car's been Slashdotted"
Re:Oh boy, open source cars!!! (Score:3, Informative)
This is describing the OBD-II (onboard diagnostics) codes. OBD-II is required on all new vehicles sold in the US since 1996. The protocol is open, but manufacturers would add additional information that they did not disclose to outsiders. Throttle position, fuel flow, intake temp, etc were all easy to decode but other codes were proprietary.
And, yes, I am one of the people interested in this
Re:Oh boy, open source cars!!! (Score:2)
Sounds like what Microsoft did to Kerberos...
Re:Oh boy, open source cars!!! (Score:1)
Re:... This isn't new (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Not good... (jetpacks) (Score:1)
no, i'm not a salesman, just think this shit is WAY WAY WAY overdue.
Re:Not all that significant.. (Score:2)
The truth is, most manufacturers were already on board with this policy.
Re:Not all that significant.. (Score:1)
On the other hand GM released their codes and some guy wrote a nifty program (WinADLD) that allows you to hook right up to the computer for the cost of a home made cable (about a buck).