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Electric Car Capable of 180mph 375

Posted by michael from the burning-rubber dept.
niclas_b writes "This electric car is pretty cool. It's not cheap and maybe not very practical. But very cool nevertheless." Might as well throw in a link to their homepage as well.
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Electric Car Capable of 180mph More

Electric Car Capable of 180mph

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  • Something's Wrong... (Score:5, Funny)

    by BaconLT ( 555713 ) <spam&tomainoonline,com> on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:33AM (#4385549) Homepage
    I think the link is broken, it took me to a picture of the car in Demolition Man.

    Maybe it was Total Recall, not sure.

  • what do you mean not very practical? (Score:5, Funny)

    by ashkar ( 319969 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:36AM (#4385561)
    • Potential Uses
    • Prom
    • Groceries
    • Emergency Power Backup
    • Ho-Mobile (the chicks dig it and there's a big back seat)
    • Making all the NOPI kids cry when you beat them
  • - type: Lithium-Ion
    - Current capacity, Voltage: 88 Ah, 3.75V
    - Amount of energy/Voltage: 55 kWh / 315 V
    - Batteries weight 600 kg

    Aha! So now I know what the mobile phone manufacturers use as the reference when announcing the battery lifetime of these cool new 3G phones :)

  • Umm..... right. (Score:4, Informative)

    by NeuroKoan ( 12458 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:46AM (#4385591) Homepage Journal
    While I was going to make some insightful comments about continual growth of electric cars lately, this 'product' is just plain laughable.

    In my opinion, something that is more important to the future of electric cars (and a testament to their potential) is the Toyota Prius Rally Car [supercars.net]. It recently just finished a 5,000 mile 3 week rally [ultimatecarpage.com]. Didn't finish first, but finished (which, as any rally fan will tell you is a challenge in-and-of itself). At least Toyota's accomplishments are tangible.

    And seriously, whats with the 8 wheel design?
    • And seriously, whats with the 8 wheel design?

      The 8 x 73HP motors, for instance! That makes 55 kw (73 PS) x 8 power, and 100 Nm x 8 (72.33 lb/ft x 8) between 0-5500 rpm of torque......

    • Re:Umm..... right. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Buttercup ( 22814 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @03:21AM (#4385814)

      And seriously, whats with the 8 wheel design?

      To begin with, as the page explains, it means no dive or squat during braking or acceleration. It also means smooth cornering. It means, as your other respondent mentions, 8 motors with power evenly distributed to each wheel. It means that the car can lose wheels and continue to operate normally. It means the vehicle prototype can be adapted into limousines, trucks, buses, and other large vehicles.

      Basically, it's completely kickass, and you call it "laughable" because it's not what you're used to. Good job, man.

    • How can you compare a fully electric car to a hybrid? I wouldn't compare the Honda Insight to this Kawasaki either even though it's part wimpy gasoline engine and part electric.
    • It's true that this sort of electric car is really a concept car. Eventually something like it may appear on everyday roads but not for years.

      Something like the Prius is showing a possible future. It's not selling that well as yet (relative to normal cars) but is at least quite practical.

      What is needed are electric cars which can function almost as well as a normal car (in terms of range and speed). Until recently most alternative fuel cars had maximum speeds of about 40 mph and a range of about 50 miles before needing an hours charge. Unless cars like these are available very cheaply then how many people will buy them?

      Something like the Prius has the best of both electric and petrol cars and represents the present and near future. This huge supercar thing represents, at best, something vaguely from the distant future.


      • It's not selling that well as yet (relative to normal cars) but is at least quite practical.



        Well, we had to wait 3 months for ours and our friends waited 5 months. In it's first 6 months in the US it sold 2x more than Honda Insight did over 12 months. They've throttled production but that's about to change. I've heard that Toyota has something like 4 hybrids instore for sale next year. Even with throttled production, they sold 100,000 cars as of last August 02'. Essentially, 2 years of worldwide( US/Canada ) sales.



        About Toyota Prius [toyota.com]

        LoB

    • Electric cars have enourmous torque from zero revs, and most have to use clever electronics to prevent over enthusiastic drivers from lighting up the tires when they stomp on the go pedal. ... and this baby is large and heavy! I bet they thought "must have 4wd", then thought "outside the box" [picture fingers outlining box shape in air] - hey 6WD!

      OH YER!

      If that mother can put down 1000HP through 6 wheels, I bet it takes off like a scalded cat!

    • Power 85.8 kw / 115.1 bhp @ combined rpm
      Torque 465.05 nm / 343.0 ft lbs @ combined rpm

      heh... that's more torque than most truck engines, actually =).

      i guess this really confirms the rumor that the electric motor on the prius is so powerful (torque-wise) that they had to tone it down a bit to get reasonable (as in, slow-ish 8-10s) acceleration times (and reasonable fuel economy -- after all it's supposed to be a gas-sipping car). and remember, that torque is available at any rpm.

      I would not be surprised that an eletric-motor assisted car would do better than a straight int.comb. engine car (if you can save the weight on the batteries, say, use ultra-caps or something)... This is true *especially* in acceleration, which in any race that involves actually turning, would be one of the, if not the most important stat (while braking into a turn, your engine is still redlined and charging up the capacitors for that speedy exit)

      • yeah, I wish Totota let a bit more current to those electric motors off the line. Not so much for me( right ) but for those who find it not quick enough. When the Prius starts on a cold morning, they keep the gas engine running in a special mode to get efficient ASAP. During this time, they let more amps to the electric motors and it does have a bit more gitty yup. The silent acceleration is a kick after years of always hearing a gas engine roaring. Hearing an engine crank seems strange now... :)

        Maybe the next Toyota hybrids will have an option for a little more battery for a little more gitty yup.

        LoB
    • And seriously, whats with the 8 wheel design?

      That's for keeping a good relationship with the petroleum countries.

      Look, if you wont be spending as much on gaz, you got to spend that oil somewhere else. And that, my friend, is TIRES!

      Imagine the amount of frictions those back wheels are gonna have eh?

      But this car is also about money. If we're not going to spend as much money destroying the planet with gasoline, we might as well do it with a TRUCK LOAD of batteries!

      And we might as well spend all our remaining money repairing dang expensive motor wheels for every frickin potholes we'll be ramming into, at 180MPH!

      Coz that, my friend, is the green way. GO! Environmental-friendly cars! A new era is beginning.

      (And for those moderators out there, this is called sarcasm.)
    • While I was going to make some insightful comments about continual growth of electric cars lately, this 'product' is just plain laughable.

      [...]

      And seriously, whats with the 8 wheel design?

      That was my first thought too, but on closer inspection, this looks less like a car and more like a small bus with a nicer-than-usual interior. Under that category (luxury chartered bus), it could easily work.

  • checked out the pics... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Xpilot ( 117961 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:47AM (#4385597) Homepage
    Parallel parking that thing is gonna be a bitch. :)

  • Pictures of the Car (Score:5, Informative)

    by Grip3n ( 470031 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:48AM (#4385599) Homepage
    Because it's not in the KAZ article itself, pictures of the car are available here:

    http://web.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~hiros/kaz/pict.html [keio.ac.jp]

  • Electric Car that goes 200mph+ (Score:5, Informative)

    by bjschrock ( 557973 ) <bschrock AT gmail DOT com> on Friday October 04, 2002 @01:49AM (#4385606)
    The Spirit of Oklahoma electric car can go over 200mph. Granted, it's a formula race car built for speed and definitely can't carry 8 passengers, but it is faster...
    Here are it's specs [ou.edu].

  • 180 mph motorhome... (Score:2, Informative)

    by radiashun ( 220050 )
    check out the 3rd or 4th picture on this page [keio.ac.jp]. add a TV, ps2, and a mini-fridge and it's a quick, comfy miami to seattle trip :-)

  • I wonder... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by obii ( 196264 )
    1. How can 75PS make a car drive 311 km/h? (Specially with a weight of roundabout 3 tons)
    2. How far will the car go when driving max speed of 311 km/h? (Does this mean driving 20 Minutes, and then the batteries are empty?)

    • Re:I wonder... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by homb ( 82455 )
      To answer your first comment:
      How can 75PS make a car drive 311 km/h? (Specially with a weight of roundabout 3 tons)

      Notice that they have one integrated "in-wheel" motor per wheel. Each motor achieves 73 PS. And there are 8 wheels, so that's 73*8 = 584 PS
      If you combine those 584 horses with the extremely aerodynamic look of the car (close to teardrop shaped), the top speed of 311 km/h would not surprise me. Once you get those 3 tons moving, most of the work is to combat friction.

      For question 2 regarding the range when driving at max speed, we can only speculate. My guess is that if it can do 300km at a constant 100km/h, then at 311 km/h you probably can't do much more than 60-80kms. Which means that you'll rip through those in about 15 minutes. :-)
      But the question is: while we can wonder who can manage a constant 311 km/h for 15 minutes on asphalt, what is the acceleration cost for stop-and-go traffic which is much more common these days?

  • Woah... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zakabog ( 603757 ) <.john. .at. .jmaug.com.> on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:01AM (#4385634)
    Running Performance 14.5 sec. (0-400m)
    A quarter mile in only 14.5 seconds? Or am I reading that wrong?

    Max Speed 311.67 km/h
    Top speed, 193 MPH

    Gross weight 2980 kg
    Gross weight, 6,569 pounds!!!!! WHAT! That's 3 tons!

    There's gas powered cars that weigh 1/4th that, have 15 second quarter miles (400km), and a top speed of 150 MPH (241 km/h). Is this some kind of cruel joke? Can't they put that engine and battery into a smaller frame and get an electric car good enough to compete in an actual race? That thing looks like a long minivan... If there was a cheaper version, with a MUCH better shape, I'm sure alot of people would buy it.

    • Re:Woah... (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Hellasboy ( 120979 )
      A good reason to why they chose this size for it is because the number of batteries this car needs are enormous. Sure, you can put it in an elise (probably not, but just work with me) but you'll have enough charge to get up to 30mph before it dies. A Rolls Royce weighs about the same.

      How many 8 passenger cars do you see doing the quarter in 14.5 seconds?

      but that shape sure is damn ugly
      • number of batteries this car needs are enormous. Sure, you can put it in an elise (probably not, but just work with me) but you'll have enough charge to get up to 30mph before it dies.

        Maybe I'm missing something here, but there is an Electric Lotus Elise. It has quite reasonable acceleration performance (but is speed limited to 150kph/90mph I think). There's some details here [sandsmuseum.com] but a lot more links are listed on google.

        I'd be tempted but I've already got a Lotus. :-)

        Simon
    • Gross weight 2980 kg
      Gross weight, 6,569 pounds!!!!! WHAT! That's 3 tons!

      You had to convert kilograms into pounds to figure out how many tons it weighed? Here's a hint: 1 ton is 1,000 kilogram. It's a lot faster to calculate that way.
      • Actually no I didn't have to, it was for the people who don't know the metric system I was trying to help them understand, obviously I do know it if I was able to convert kg into pounds... Besides by your rule the car only weighs 2.9 tons, when it really weighs 3.25 tons.
      • You had to convert kilograms into pounds to figure out how many tons it weighed? Here's a hint: 1 ton is 1,000 kilogram. It's a lot faster to calculate that way.

        In the US, one ton is 2000 lb (also called a short ton). One Metric ton is 1000 kg (also called a long ton, at 2204.6 lb). In the US, when you ask for one ton of material and don't specify long or short, the short ton is common usage and typically assumed.

    • You just nailed the major reason that we're all not driving electric cars right now on the head: Batteries. As soon as a high-enough, affordable, and long-lasting battery is developed, gas cars might actually have some competition. But as long as a decent battery pack weighs 2000 lbs by itself, lasts two years, and costs $50,000 (a typical hi-performance NiMH pack), then we're not going to be seeing consumer electric cars anytime soon.

      Be nice to your Chemical Engineer friends, they are the ones that will eventually solve the problem.
      • You just nailed the major reason that we're all not driving electric cars right now on the head: Batteries.

        Personally, I'd have to argue semantics here. The reason we're not driving electric cars right now is "storage". This problem can be solved with batteries, flywheels, pure hydrogen fuel cells, etc...

        Fuel cells are on the way, and will probably be the ideal solution. The fuel cell will either run on pre-separated hydrogen, much like a battery stores pre-generated power, or it will run off enhanced liquid fuels. In the first form, it will be called a zero emmissions vehicle, the emmissions having been generated at a power plant somewhere else at an earlier time in a more controlled environment. The second form will be a low-emmissions form, but if proper fuels are chosen the emmissions should be negligible. For example, filling it with biodiesel (i.e., reformulated corn oil) should result in incredibly low emmissions.

        The other advantage to fuel cells is size. The fuel cell system would probably use several large capacitors and batteries for short term boost accelleration, but overall the system would be much smaller and lighter than a comparable battery system.

  • Screw cool. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by blair1q ( 305137 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:01AM (#4385637) Journal
    How far will it go on $15 and 2 minutes per week of refueling labor?

  • Sorry, but... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Snarfvs Maximvs ( 28022 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:06AM (#4385652)
    ...that's a really fast electric *RV*. Not an electric car. THIS is a really fast electric *CAR*:

    http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero_pages/tzero_ho me .htm

  • At last! (Score:4, Funny)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) <teamhasnoi@yahoA ... inus threevowels> on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:17AM (#4385676) Journal
    The mother of the Pontiac Aztek has been found! The dad is the new Cadillac.

  • comments on in-wheel drive system (Score:3, Insightful)

    by lingqi ( 577227 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:29AM (#4385710) Journal
    It's cool that they put everything (motor / reduction / brakes) in the wheel, but i fail to see the point of it... to be honest:

    the reason you buy high quality name brand wheels is because (beside the "looks cool" and "got $$ buring holes everywhere") it gives a lower up-sprung weight. which means that the car does much better in the ride quality, easier to tune the shocks / suspensions, etc. by the way, different brake rotors would allow the same thing -- but people usually go for bigger rotors for the stopping power, and try to make sure the wheel themselves are as light as possible.

    this is kinda important when you want your car to be performance oriented, as these guys are certainly trying to demonstrate -- but this combination of technology will ultimately yield a car that "can go 180mph but the ride really suck", or "if you want reasonable ride quality, then our entire million(s) dollar technology won't work"... self-defeating by my standards, anyway. =)

    gotta say, though... damn... 600kg of batteries; that's over 1300 lb. some small cars (say, lotus elise) weight about that much...
    • *sigh* Unless you racing that car. Unsprung weight is a non-issue in most passanger cars(or should I say bus in this case). The suspention setup could easly be designed to make up for the extra unsprung weight.

      If you looked at the car, you'll know that it's obviouly not built for performace at all, just speed. Cars that are tuned for performace will have a horrible ride anyway. The only thing this car is going to be lacking is cornering performace. But since it's not a racing car, who cares?

      Anyway. The point in putting it all in the wheel means there is more space in the chassis, the also, the biggie, hardly any moving parts at all. No gears, no diffs, not even a driveshaft anywhere.

    • "the reason you buy high quality name brand wheels is because (beside the "looks cool" and "got $$ buring holes everywhere") it gives a lower up-sprung weight"

      Nine times out of ten your aftermarket rims are much heavier than your factory steelies. Even factory alloys tend to be pretty hefty. No, there are 2 reasons to buy aftermarket rims. 1. A larger rim (plus sized) yields a shorter (and usually stiffer) sidewall, and that cuts down on sidewall flex during hard cornering. 2. A larger rim usually has a larger internal diameter (the side that faces your brakes) so when you throw that Brembo Gran Turismo kit at all 4 corners your rims will bolt back on. Oh, and they look cooler..unless they're chrome.

  • I just cant shake the feeling thats its just a CGI (Score:5, Funny)

    by rufusdufus ( 450462 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @02:58AM (#4385767)
    I keep looking at the photographs and can't shake the feeling that what we are really seeing is the class project for realistic computer graphics. The car is just too glossy and perfect looking, even inside.

    Maybe I'm just getting paranoid, because of this Beetle [cox.net]

  • They've tempted you with a non-Internal combustion vehicle. Now that you're interested and go "Oh yes, I finally can just plug into my house and Pay the electric company for my power and not the gas station".. Then they unveil it. OH MY GOD THAT THING IS UGLY... and they tell us thats the only way you'll ever have a fast electric car.. a big heavy ugly ass machine. Thus the sabotage of zero-emission vehicles is complete. On a side note.. if we all just plug our cars into our house to charge it... electric companies then will have to produce more electricity.. then burning more of what ever fuel they use. Thus creating more polution.. or possibly some other environmental effect or danger even if your electric company doesn't produce from fossil fuels right..?

    • Electricity is more effecient that gasoline. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by MikeFM ( 12491 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @03:42AM (#4385859) Homepage Journal
      Even the worst electric plants are more effecient than the ebst internal combustion engines at producing and transporting the resulting energy. Even counting the loss of transferring the energy into batteries.. hauling the batteries around in the car.. converting the electricity into making the car go.. the electric is still more effecient. The main downside of electrics however is that it's harder to store at the same space efficency... meaning that batteries need to be a lot bigger that a tank of gas to get the same range. Batteries are getting better but they still can't squeeze as much into the same space. They can also be slow to charge unless you have the money to spend on a fast charger and batteries able to stand being charged that fast. However common EV's can more than provide enough range for the average person to drive to work.. go to lunch.. go back to work.. make a few stops on the way home.. and get home. The cost of fuel is typically way cheaper than gasoline even if you just plug into an outlet in your home and of course you have the option of using solar and wind to recharge your vehicle which of couse costs you nothing other than the upfront cost of installing your system. Insurance is usually cheaper for EV's also as they are usually very safe to drive as they have no parts that can explode and the batteries absorb impact during a crash.
      • Even the worst electric plants are more effecient than the ebst internal combustion engines at producing and transporting the resulting energy.

        That's of course true, but for an electrical car you have to first convert chemical energy to electrical (in the plant), convert it back into chemical (in the car battery), convert that back into electrical and finally into kinetic energy.

        Those losses add up.

        • The electric is still more efficient according to studies done by tree huggers. It is probably more efficient to use gasoline according to a study done by auto manufacturers.

          In reality, it is not exactly known. Some studies have come close to trying to calculate all the steps involved. One that I've read (i don't have the link) had many of the things to calculate. The only way we'll ever know is if we do a earth to car efficiency study. How much energy is expended pumping the oil or mining the coal? How much energy is spent transporting the oil/coal? How much energy is spent refining/generating the final fuel (petrol/electricity)? How much energy is lost transporting the fuel (tankers/transmission lines)? Finally how efficient is the vehicle at getting the available fuel to usable motion?

          1) Electricity is almost always made with local coal/hydro/natural gas/sun/wind. Petrol has a large portion from countries that are unstable. Places I don't think the US should stick there long noses and risk my relatives going to war.

          2) Generation of electricity has efficiencies based on economies of scale. Much of the really bad pollution is cleaned out. Power plants usually drop their output during the night to points that aren't as efficient. If timers, time of use meters, and other strategies are implemented, electric cars can recharge at night. This additional electric load can be used to keep the plants operating in their most efficient power range. IC engines don't have all those benefits of size. They need to be cheap and useful so some of the pollution is allowed. I think that the refining of oil to petrol is very efficient. They use many of the byproducts in other ways.

          3) tankers on the road to transport fuel to the stations is hard on the roads, fairly dangerous, possible terrorist targets. Transmission lines are not lossless. I don't know the exact amount of power lost in the lines and the transformers. But it is fairly clean. Generating your own electricity from solar/wind/geothermal/hydro eliminates the losses in the lines since it doesn't have to go that far.

          4) Pumping gas into your car is pretty efficient but the engine itself is very wasteful. So much heat is generated that cannot be used unless your in a cold climate and use the heater. Electric vehicles have inefficiencies from the battery charger (power factor/line losses), charging batteries produces some heat. Discharging batteries produces heat. The speed controller is generating heat and the motor is not 100% efficient (usually 80% - 95%). When stopped in traffic the electric vehicle produces no heat or anything. IC engines keep running even though they don't need too. Can you imagine all the fuel wasted sitting in rush hour traffic?

          These are all factors to consider. Down sides of electric vehicles are generally the range and weight. But how often do you really need to travel over 60 miles non-stop? If you do then you shouldn't have an electric vehicle as your main source of transportation. I call electric vehicles a good second and third car. If used as a primary vehicle you should get friendly with your local auto rental for the longer trips that the EV can't make.

          What really pisses me off is that more vehicles are hybrids. These would be a great help to the pollution problem. If every SUV, bus, car, minivan were hybrid. They still aren't ideal but they would be perfect as a primary vehicle with your second/third vehicle being all electric. Even better would be a plug in hybrid that could run all electric for short trips (store, work) and then when you need to go farther it can run in full hybrid mode.

          I'll quit rambling now.
  • First of all, this is obviously a concept car. If you read the article and take a look at their homepage the idea comes forward.

    As someone else allready stated, the weight is huge and 8 wheels is strange for a passenger car. However, on their homepage it is made clear that they created a standard chassis on which a bus, truck or passenger car can be build. Further more, it's interesting to see their concept as it shows that perhaps the future of automotive transportation lies in a totally different concept than currently used.

    You can compare it to toyota's electric car or the lotus elise but those cars are made with todays concept of building cars. The engine built in the wheel is a refreshing thought as it surely leaves alot of room for a developer to design the card without compromising for motor compartments etc.

    Off course it does raise questions like what would be the price of a new wheel and such but somehow i don't think the audience for this type of car will be impressed by it's maintenance costs.

    Besides that, i think it's a refreshing design. But that's pure personal prefference.

  • National Electric Drag Racing Association (Score:5, Informative)

    by stereoroid ( 234317 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @03:06AM (#4385789) Homepage Journal

    Speaking of performance electrics, don't forget NEDRA [nedra.com]. Their current champion, "Current Eliminator IV", uses Dragster - 336V of batteries and did a standing quarter-mile in 8.801 seconds. I wonder what it sounded like - a two-tonne bumble-bee on crack..?

    I second the previous comments about the need to keep wheel mass low - low sprung weight is a definite goal of performance cars. It's hard to call this thing a car, it's more like a bus, since it seats 8 and weighs 3 tonnes...

  • We automatically expect a van-shaped vehicle to be tall and wide, but some of these pictures [gaura.com] show that the Kaz is smaller than it appears. It's still a good size, but not the enormous beast that one might suppose.

  • More details in the pdf, people! (Score:5, Informative)

    by jonr ( 1130 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @04:16AM (#4385915) Homepage Journal
    People here are umbeliveable! "It's ugly", "It's a fake", etc. It's not fake, I have seen footages on TV of this car, even on race track(!). It is no uglier than a standard limousine. The 8 weels are there for a reason. Blow one or two and the car keeps going. And it steers with 6 of them, making it very nimble compared to the size of it. Since there is no huge-ass gas guzzling engine in the front, the whole length of the car can be used for a cabin. 8 weels means it can carry more load. (Limousine with a hot tub? ;)). And I have full confidence that some designer can make a decent looking car out of it. :)
    http://www.gaura.com/ev/kaz/pdf/KAZ_s.pdf

  • Battery technology still a problem (Score:5, Interesting)

    by panurge ( 573432 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @04:19AM (#4385919)
    The big problem I see is the availability of batteries. For instance, companies like Ovonics are supposedly commercialising NiMH (the technology BEFORE lithium.) I have been trying for two years to design a half way reasonable electric bicycle. I have a battery specification which is within the range of claimed traction battery designs in NiMH (12 or 13.2V, 5-60AH, 600W over 5 minutes and 400W average over discharge. Hardly rocket science.) Yet a battery of this spec is still not available on the commercial market except in limited series production to large customers. The obvious conclusion is that the technology isn't yet marketable. Which means that lithium ion has a chance when...2020? As for fuel cells, they have been a promising technology for the last 50 years plus, but the problems (world supply of platinum limited, high temperatures needed for high efficiencies, corrosive media, thermal management, carbon monoxide and dioxide poisoning, seem always on the verge of being solved but never getting there. And don't forget that unlike a battery, a fuel cell's output is limited by the membrane capacity: the ability to produce high peaks for short periods is missing. The last time I read an article on the future of fuel cells was the dead wood version of Scientific American in 1999. I'm not aware of any real breakthroughs since.

    Meanwhile, the direct injection electronically controlled turbo diesel just goes on getting more and more efficient, and cleaner. And smaller. And lighter. And more reliable.

    • a fuel cell's output is limited by the membrane capacity: the ability to produce high peaks for short periods is missing

      Can't you just put a large capacitor in series with it to solve that problem?

      [fuel cell problems] world supply of platinum limited, high temperatures needed for high efficiencies, corrosive media, thermal management, carbon monoxide and dioxide poisoning

      Membranes are getting cheaper and cheaper as the technology progresses. Not sure what you mean about the last one, the only output of a fuel cell is pure water. The high temperatures can easily be dealt with... there are even small fuel cells that run laptops these days.

      seem always on the verge of being solved but never getting there

      Well commercial fuel cells have been around for a while. My local swimming pool has been powered by fuel cell [futureenergies.com] for the last couple of years. I'm tempted to buy a domestic one for my next house. GM has promised mass production of fuel cell cars for 2008.

      The last time I read an article on the future of fuel cells was the dead wood version of Scientific American in 1999. I'm not aware of any real breakthroughs since.

      Where HAVE you been??? Even if you only read Slashdot you would see articles about fuel cells in laptops [slashdot.org] (plus obigatory dup [slashdot.org]), Sci American 2002 about GM [slashdot.org], Wired article about GM $1bn bet [slashdot.org], and more. Fuel cells are a big deal today.

      Phillip.
      • Sorry if this sounds a bit sharp, but anyone who thinks a capacitor can hold enough energy to give a short boost to a vehicle (let alone being in series...it would be parallel) isn't qualified to discuss the subject. If you think batteries are a big,heavy way to store energy, you ain't seen nothing till you come to capacitors.

        I ask again: where are these commercial fuel cells? How long does it take to build up mass in a new technology? I'm going to be using a Zimmer frame before these babies are parked at the mall in large numbers.

    • Lithium Metal Polymer (LMP) batteries will be perfect for automotive applications once the cost comes down. They have excellent energy density and a better life expentancy than most of the alternative. One manufacturer that comes to mind is these guys [avestor.com] but there are others creating similiar technologies.

  • What about just *one* motor? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Gordonjcp ( 186804 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @04:24AM (#4385927) Homepage
    I'm surprised that no-one has pointed out that one of these motors, kicking out around 75hp, would power a small family car just fine. Using only one motor and a transaxle would probably let you fill the existing engine compartment and fuel tank areas with NiMH batteries, giving a Ford Fiesta/Escort sized car (small/mid family car) with reasonable around-town performance. You could also stick the 75hp motor and batteries in a Nissan Micra-sized car, for a small car that goes like hell... The standard, non-cat, carbie Micras have about 55-60hp, and the new shape ones are all about 50-55hp. 75hp and *no* noxious emissions would be pretty damn useful in something that weighs 550kg wet.
  • It looks almost like it was designed as a lemosine or something, for carting around rich environmentalist actors :)

    That this can go 190 miles an hour isn't really that impressive, especialy given that it probably has motors on all 8(?!) of it's wheels.

    There are actualy a lot of niche electric cars for sale that will go pretty fast. Perhaps slashdot could look them up and do a comprehensive story.

    Oh wait, that would require real work, nevermind...

  • And the point of this vehicle is? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @04:49AM (#4385965)
    I mean, it's a 400kW vehicle. Why electric? 400kW is 400kW whether it's petrol or batteries. You still have to generate and store the energy so you're still throwing similar amounts of C02 into the atmosphere when you use it.

    So, at 400kW, I don't see the point of the thing. BioDiesel or methanol fuel cell based, I could see the point of.

  • It still lacks on the most important aspect (Score:3, Informative)

    by laoman ( 141742 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @06:11AM (#4386148) Homepage
    That's range. 300 Km when running at a constant 100 Km/h speed. I wonder how much range it has under normal conditions (going 100-120 in the highway, 0-60 in the city). 150-200 Km perhaps? That's not good enough :-(

    My dad's Passat 1.9TDI does 1000 Km under normal conditions, with just 55 litres of diesel. I know. I've measured it.

    I've read a few IEEE articles on EVs in the past, and range seems to be their major problem right now. Also, Lithium batteries tend to die every couple of years and need to be replaced (too expensive).

  • Expensive ... but mostly impractical (Score:3, Insightful)

    by jimfrost ( 58153 ) <jimf@frostbytes.com> on Friday October 04, 2002 @06:13AM (#4386151) Homepage
    It's nice that the car is fast, but really the performance if EVs is limited to power output, not technology. If you want a really fast EV use more or more powerful batteries or shed weight ... no surprises there, and no funky new technology needed. We can make an EV as fast as an IC car without a lot of trouble, but it won't have much range.

    In my mind the practicality of these vehicles, independent of cost, revolves around the range versus recharge cycle. If it takes more than a few minutes to do a recharge, and the range is less than a thousand miles, then they're just not good enough for a general-purpose vehicle.

    This is why hybrids are interesting ... recharge cycle is a tank fill.

    What I'm waiting for is someone to look at making a hybrid where the engine is always on, always producing power, but the generator is producing a bit more power than the thing normally will need and charging a capacitor stack rather than batteries. That gives you acceleration (for awhile) but is much lighter and cheaper than batteries and since the engine is operating efficiently all the time, and requires quite a bit less power than if it were producing motive power directly (eg a few hundred cc ought to do a pretty good job) it should still be more efficient.

  • Oh yeah. Let's just stomp that sumbich flat.

    Pretty cool ride but I don't see the use unless they can start making CHEAP EFFICIENT solar systems. Of course, I should probably just ask Santa for a pony because I am more likely to get that down my chimney that effective solar power with oil and coal so CLEAN.

  • Better Alternative - The Air Car (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Pratip ( 14939 ) on Friday October 04, 2002 @07:05AM (#4386248)
    I think the Air car has a better chance of working, not only due to cost, but the licensing model as well. They will grow through selling the factories, not the cars. Check the website to see how many licenses have been sold.

    None in North america, 40 in China alone. http://www.theaircar.com [theaircar.com]
  • "Three words, Sully - Eight Wheel Drive!"

    OK - I get superb cornering in my front wheel drive, four wheels on the ground Neon. So does the Skip Barber racing school. 8?

    Why 8? You have to be adding all the inefficiencies of all the wheels when you add wheels. Granted some of us can't live without a dualie or full-time all-wheel drive, but we're also willing to live with the slight inefficiency.

    Maybe it's still more efficient than an 8-wheel or maybe a 4-wheel IC engine and traditional transmission and transfer cases, but it can't be more efficient than a 4-wheel electric with a motor on two wheels, and I can't imagine steering all those wheels is a trivial problem for engineering the steering.

    (Footnote - go read up on the transfer of Paul MacCready's electric car to GM ("We can't put a motor on each wheel. What if one fails? The thing'll do donuts!" Never mind that many IC motor mount failures will collapse the nearby wheel assembly to the same effect...)

    Geez - the guys at Pep Boys battery & tire dept. will drool and throw a rod when they see this thing limping in once a year...
  • Those wacky French have managed it, here is the BBC article [bbc.co.uk] and here is the actual car website [bellwether...active.com]

    I wonder if the air tank explodes when damaged?

  • I'm I the only one who thought that on first seeing the car.

  • Might as well throw in a link to their homepage as well.

    Yep. Killing one site at a time just isn't enough for old Slashdot now, is it?
  • I like the name...there's just something about "Kaz" that rings a bell. Now, if it could only rip rocks...
  • Yes, the car can do 180mph but can the webserver handle 180hpm (hits per minute)?

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