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Anoto-based Pens From Logitech 429

flanksteak writes "Logitech has announced the IO Pen, a ball-point pen with a memory. You write stuff with the pen, then drop it in its USB cradle and your bad handwriting appears on your PC. The pen is to be released in November. How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?" We've run some previous stories about this - no telling how well it actually works until it's tested, though. And at $9.99/notebook, the paper is about three times as expensive as regular paper.
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Anoto-based Pens From Logitech

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  • It's not really a pen, per se, since you cannot use it with regular paper. What good is the pen, since it can only be used with the special digital paper?
  • by mooman ( 9434 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:42PM (#4514232) Homepage
    Just lend this pen to people anytime they need to sign something.

    Viola, you've captured their signature and can forge it whenever needed...

    1. Lend pen to important people
    2. Blackmail and defraud
    3. Profit!
    • by Scott Tracy ( 317419 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:48PM (#4514320)
      Unless you loan the pen to someone who has the special paper, that won't work.

      Anoto uses paper with grey dots on it, aligned in a grid, that (for some reason or another) is part of a larger 60,000,000-sq-km unique grid (so no two pieces of paper are the same). The 'pen' has a camera in it, that captures the grey dots as you write, and stores the coordinates. This must use very little memory, but does force you to use more expensive (and likely harder-to-find) paper.

      Still, I've preordered mine at amazon.com for $199. It's supposed to be available Nov 8.
      • Unless you loan the pen to someone who has the special paper, that won't work
        "Hey, will you sign this picture of you that I printed off the Internet? Umm... could you sign in that white area there? Sorry about the grey spots, my printer's kinda on the blink... Thanks!"

        But really... I don't think having the famous person's *signature* is gonna get you that much. After all, they've been giving the friggin' things away forever... I'll bet Plato did autographed copies of the Apology for his friends...

        And what does a viola have to do with anything? :p

      • The reason that the grids are unique on different pieces of paper is so that software can get some context about what you're writing on. The statement that no two pieces of paper are the same is not entirely correct. Each piece of paper in the larger grid is assigned a unique ID. That ID is mapped to a particular application, so that by calling the Anoto lookup service, software could know that you're filling out an insurance application, or that you're sending e-mail to somebody. It can then interpret the ink intelligently, since it can then determine where the various fields are on the page and what they mean.
      • by thelexx ( 237096 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:50PM (#4514982)
        Must be nice to have so much money just laying around. At 5%, in 20 years $200 becomes $865. When it's shown that this thing is going to rock the world, and they make it a little less clunky looking, I'll consider it. Until then, my money is going toward retiring somewhere that the drinks are served in pineapples by scantily clad native women.

    • by Rantastic ( 583764 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:58PM (#4514415) Journal
      Viola, you've captured their signature and can forge it whenever needed

      Actually, no. At least, you can't beat signature recognition devices that way. They look at presure changes, speed, and strokes, none of which are captured by this device.

    • Is it Logitech or Enron that is producing this pen?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:42PM (#4514233)
    "The IO pen only works when used on location at one of Jupiter's moons"
  • Wireless? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Shamanin ( 561998 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:43PM (#4514238)
    What about the amount of power this would require? If my guess is correct, it would seem that they are using a USB connection to avoid excessive power consumption during download transmission of data.
  • by Doomrat ( 615771 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:43PM (#4514240) Homepage
    Is 3 times as expensive as something as cheap as paper really that much of a problem for a new technology like this? Compared to most, this isn't so bad.
    • And its cheaper than buying a tablet PC to lug around to meetings. Its especially when most people already have atleast one pc at their desk. This method doesn't require another device besides the pen.

      I don't like palm pilots for their limited input functionality and tablets are too big and bulky. This by passes those problems.

  • by misterhaan ( 613272 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:44PM (#4514253) Homepage Journal
    Digitally capture handwritten emails
    excellent! now i can keep a record of all my handwritten e-mails as well as my typed ones!
    • by TheTomcat ( 53158 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:53PM (#4514367) Homepage
      I once had a boss who would [have his secretary] PRINT all of his emails before reading them, then handwrite replies and [have his secretary] type them into his email client.

      Now he can automate his stupidity.

      S
      • I was once an intern in an advertising company who was trying to break into internet advertising, since this was 1996 and the web ads was supposed to be the Next Big Thing.

        I was a recent college grad with Internet Experience (TM). Part of my job was to, yes, print out webpages of successful web ads and bind them in a folder for their strategy meetings.

        Needless to say, they never really landed any big contracts, and were forced to stay with their Junkmail business.
    • I think the best thing about this is the possibility of getting emails from people written in their own hand! Yes typing is quick and easy but it is so monotonous and uniform. Why should an email from my gf look the same as a email from my boss?

      • Why should an email from my gf look the same as a email from my boss?
        it shouldn't! if your girlfriend talks to you the same way your boss does, you need a new girlfriend!
        (that or you have a lawsuit against your boss . . . )
    • Doesn't this go against the whole concept of the "paperless office" that was so popular a few years back?

      Just think, we don't have to print out every incoming fax, we can save notes and e-mails typed into the computer... then this thing comes out, and we get to *write* everything down again.

      Yeah, sure, it'd be useful for people who usually take paper notes anyway (like me), but for the whole "making communication easier" thing, it seems like a waste of perfectly good paper to scribble out a quick e-mail to someone with this pen.

  • by modus ( 122983 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:44PM (#4514254)
    "How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?"

    Well, seeing as how Sony Ericsson have already announced a pen using this technology that supports Bluetooth (http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=ERIC_CHA TPEN), pretty darn cool.
  • Paper. (Score:2, Redundant)

    by unicron ( 20286 )
    What's the point of the special paper anyway? What makes it special and how does it relate to the storing digitally of what you wrote? I dont' see why regular notebook paper wouldn't suffice for writing stuff down the old school way while the pen digitally stored that information.
    • The special paper has a series of dots that the pen reads to track its movement. The data is stored in the pen.
    • Re:Paper. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Fnkmaster ( 89084 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:49PM (#4514329)
      Because it doesn't store what you write per se. It has a miniature camera that tracks the microscopic dot pattern on their proprietary digital paper, and uses the location of the surrounding dots to exactly identify its coordinates over time. So it really stores a sequence of coordinates, which it then dumps to PC, which reconstructs the lines connecting the tiny coordinate "snapshots" and results in writing.


      I can certainly imagine ways of doing that that DON'T require digital paper. Either this was the easiest way to implement it (unlikely) or they saw that the real margins for this market are in selling digital paper on an ongoing basis (much more likely).

      • Re:Paper. (Score:4, Insightful)

        by ivan256 ( 17499 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @02:31PM (#4515448)
        I can certainly imagine ways of doing that that DON'T require digital paper.

        Just out of curiosity, how else would you do it? You need to compensate for the fact that people pick up the pen and move to a different spot on the paper while they're writing/drawing. How would you deal with that without special paper.
    • Re:Paper. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by mooman ( 9434 )
      No kidding. If you need special paper, then how is this really much different than writing on a graphics tablet?

      I think the more practical device would be a run-of-mill-looking clipboard that you could clip any kind of paper to, write on it, and store that image..
      I think that offers more flexibility (like automatically filling out "forms" in triplicate, storing receipt/stub information for business travellers, and so on) and would be easier to incorporate wireless into. Shoot, you could even put an inconspicuous PCMCIA slot into it for a wifi adapter, disk drive, or whatever...
      • They did this, it was called a CrossPad [lnl.net] developed by IBM and marketed by Cross Pens. Unfortunately, they EOL'd it and no more were produced. They were even working on a newer USB version, which I beta tested, but that disappeared, too.
      • Re:Paper. (Score:3, Interesting)

        by pmz ( 462998 )
        If you need special paper, then how is this really much different than writing on a graphics tablet?

        It's like a Steno pad. You take the wireless pen and the wireless pad of paper wherever you go (meetings, brainstorming at the park, etc.). The handwritten graphics (letters, drawings) are stored within the pen's own memory to later be downloaded to a host computer via USB. Imagine the possibility of automatic meeting minutes (the most boring task imaginable now streamlined)!

        An awesome application for this would be for college students in addition to professionals. Imagine being able to train an OCR program to convert class notes into plain text files which can be categorized on a disk. Imagine being able to grep for topics to avoid having to flip through hundreds of pages of notes.

        The downside is the Windows XP interface in the screenshots. If Logitech is smart, they will also support UNIX/Linux/MacOS. If they are really smart, they'll use Java or really good C, so they don't have to start from scratch on each platform. If it will be truly Windows-only (and remain so at Logitech's discretion), then Logitech needs to go to hell, because there is simply no excuse for non-portable applications now-a-days especially considering the revenue potential of this pen.

        I think the more practical device would be a run-of-mill-looking clipboard that you could clip any kind of paper to, write on it, and store that image.

        The clipboard is a good idea, since the grid is embedded in the backing. However, clipboards can be somewhat clunky to write on due to their size. Smaller pads of paper can be more naturally held in one hand while writing and flipping pages can be done very quickly. If there is a way to make a clipboard behave like a Steno pad, that would be worthwhile.
    • From my understanding of it, the paper is covered in little dots that are roughly in a grid pattern, a camera in the pen looks at the dot pattern to determine where it is on the paper, and then stores that information.

    • Re:Paper. (Score:5, Informative)

      by Lil'wombat ( 233322 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:00PM (#4514436)

      The deal with the paper is that the pattern of dots is unique and no- repeating up to a area about the size of the North America. The business plan behind Annoto is to license sections of that mapspace to companys.


      Catalog company X could license 100 sq ft for use in their catalogs - using 2mm at a time for a check box next to each item in their catalog. When you check the box, the pen records those cordinates, when you download the map locations trigger an order form to be filled out on the company's catalog web site. Or 3M could sell POST-IT Faxes - a post-it with a check box to fax, so that when you link your pen with the internet , the message you just scribbled is faxed away.

      My only concern with the company is the Cue-Cat esque business model of makeing people have to pass their informtion through the annoto servers to perform anything useful.

    • Well, the special paper has dots that are tracked with a camera in the pen. But the question is, why does it need the dots even? My optical mouse doesn't need dots to work.

      Of course you might run into focus problems, like if you pulled the pen up it wouldn't know where on the paper it was. There are a number of ways to get around this, such as an ultrasound range finder connected to a focusing lens (pretty expensive tech to put into a pen, but if were already putting cameras in 'em), or an accelerometer or gyroscope position finder.
    • The point is: How does the computer know when you started the next character? Or moved your hand to the next line. If it somehow read the rollerball to record your movement, you would end up with one big scribbled spot.

      Unless you wrote in cursive, and in a circle
  • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Logitech (Score:5, Interesting)

    by SexyKellyOsbourne ( 606860 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:45PM (#4514273) Journal
    Logitech has made some really cool stuff lately -- their speakers are an absolute steal and are better at half the price than anything put out by Creative or Klipsch.

    Too bad this pen reports in a proprietary .PEN format, however -- and even exported to JPGs, the files are probably too big to be used on PDAs, in emails, and other things.

    But worst of all, the software that decodes it REQUIRES the .NET framework to run -- so much for Linux!

    We should write Logitech and request free file formats (like an export to PNG) and free software with open drivers, not some program that forces .NET upon you!
    • Rimshot... (Score:4, Informative)

      by Inoshiro ( 71693 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:31PM (#4514738) Homepage
      "But worst of all, the software that decodes it REQUIRES the .NET framework to run -- so much for Linux!"

      This .NET framework [go-mono.net]?
    • Re:Logitech (Score:2, Interesting)

      by JordoCrouse ( 178999 )
      But worst of all, the software that decodes it REQUIRES the .NET framework to run -- so much for Linux!

      Well geez. It seems to me that USB is a standard, and unless Logitech encrypted the data they are sending across the line, it should be an easy thing to use USB Snoopy (http://home.jps.net/~koma/) to read the packets and determine how the bytes work.

      It shouldn't matter if they used .NET or GWBASIC to write the driver, because the driver for Linux would have to be different anyway.

      I can't believe you actually got modded up for that.

      • Re:Logitech (Score:4, Funny)

        by RestiffBard ( 110729 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @02:31PM (#4515450) Homepage
        why is it assumed that when new hardware comes out that the "linux geeks" will just figure out how to use it anyway, eventually. why not just create the thing with openness in mind?

        its hardware. why must it be proprietary? the money for this device is in the friggin paper! not the device drivers.
  • by Torinaga-Sama ( 189890 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:46PM (#4514279) Homepage
    You know, I can't even read my own handwriting on regular paper, what good is it going to do if i can download my my own chickenscratch?

    Thats why I went to typeing in the first place.
  • I believe Wired ran an article on a company that was working on this. I don't believe it was logitech however. Several thousand invisible dots were crammed onto special sheets of paper that the tip of the pen could discern. Each dot was uniquely spaced allowing for the pen to recognize its location on the paper.

    Applications including automatic faxing, emailing or saving of documents simply by checking off a box in the corner of the paper. I would like to think it was wireless as well.

    I only wish I could remember which issue it was in
  • How it works (Score:5, Informative)

    by interiot ( 50685 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:47PM (#4514297) Homepage
    This page [logitech.com] describes how it works in more detail:
    • Digital paper with Anoto functionality is created by printing a proprietary pattern of very small dots on ordinary paper that is perceived by the eye as a slightly off-white color. The dots have a nominal spacing of 0.3 mm (0.01 inch).
    • As you write, the built-in digital camera in the pen continuously takes pictures of the patterned paper. Then, when you place the pen in its cradle, all of your writing is transferred automatically to your PC.

    So my first question is: how much writing can it store if it's constantly taking pictures?
    • 40 pages at a time. (Score:2, Informative)

      by Prince_Ali ( 614163 )
      That is according to Logitech.
    • Re:How it works (Score:4, Informative)

      by TheTomcat ( 53158 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:58PM (#4514421) Homepage
      I'm sure it doesn't store whole pictures, in much the same manner that an optical mouse only sends coordinate (delta) information, not whole captures.

      Also, optical mice (mouses), used to require special mousing surfaces. Now they work (nearly) anywhere (not on glass.. shiny black, etc.. I keep mine on my pad of graph paper, 'cause the wood on my desk is glossy and doesn't track with complete accuracy). I suspect that if this technology catches on, they'll be able to do away with the special paper.

      S
      • But the big difference is when you lift the pen/mouse... this pen will want to know where it is in relation to the other words you've scribbled on a page. Each page is unique so it can tell what page you're writing on -- otherwise it would record scribbles on top of each other. (A 'page-change' button wouldn't work because if went back and added notes to page you wrote last week, it wouldn't know which page)
      • Re:How it works (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Polo ( 30659 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:34PM (#4514773) Homepage
        I don't know why this got moderated up, because I don't think the poster quite understands the technology.

        The special paper provides unique coordinates. You know which page is which, when you've changed pages, when you've gone back and annotated old pages, what type of page you're on. You could define special forms and print millions of them, and be able to tell what data was captured and what (unique) form it was written on - even what the order of capture was. It's quite a powerful concept.

        I mean, I can see forms that are all identical and print on the same coordinates. Maybe this would be good for anonymity and cheaper to reproduce.

        There are already plenty of handwriting capture pads and stuff, but the special paper really is the technology, not the pen.
        • I understand, it's unfortunate that I didn't express myself properly in the original post.

          What I really meant was: if this paper is really as inconvenient as "special" mouse pads, someone, somewhere will come up with some way of doing without.

          Maybe microscopic sensing.. who knows?

          S

    • Well, the "pictures" if you think about it really only need to track where the dots are in the local camera scope. So they probably would only need a few 10s of bytes per snapshot, if the local dot coordinates were stored. Hopefully, though, the pen should contain the "map data" to determine coordinates from the local dot locations (i.e. the interpretation of the local dot patterns is on-board on the pen), so you only need to store an x and a y for each snapshot.


      Figure 10 snapshots per character written for decent resolution. Even if we figure the pen had 8 megs of some solid state storage built in, that could store an awful lot of writing in either case (80000 characters, assuming 100 bytes total per character written). That's more notes than you are going to take in quite a few of those organic chemistry lectures.

      • A) Apparently my estimate is close, since Logitech says about 40 pages at a time.

        and

        B) I believe that the entire "map" is described as 60,000,000 sq.km. of dots varied by page, so it obviously ISN'T stored locally on the pen, and the pen must store the local dot coordinates to the camera position.
    • Re:How it works (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Nogami_Saeko ( 466595 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:00PM (#4514439)
      It's more likely calculating movements the same way an optical mouse is. Just storing direction and distance data by calculating the difference in pattern at a high sampling rate, so it should be able to store quite a lot of it.

      Wonder if you could scan the paper in and print your own...

      It's possible that the off-white colour is actually florescent or something and the pen might use a UV light source to track the movements.

      Seems like the old inkjet / razorblades selling technique. Give them the technology (cheap?) then sell supplies. I won't buy-in to that type of technology.
  • Kludgy? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by rkent ( 73434 ) <.ude.dravrah.tsop. .ta. .tnekr.> on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:47PM (#4514307)
    At the risk of sounding unsupportive of new technology, the description of this thing makes it sound a bit kludgy. It appears to basically be an optical-mouse element tracking a regular ballpoint pen.

    Of course the ability to digitally record your penstrokes is super cool (and I wonder how much memory is in there? How long could I write before I had to dump it?), but requiring the digital paper to go along with it... well, that smacks of Gillette's approach to razorblades.

    Initially, I thought it was going to be some kind of system for actually tracking the literal ball that does the writing. THAT would be neat; normal paper, normal ballpoint pen, and recorded to boot. Then again, I know some optical mice work even without the special patterned mousepad, so I wonder if there's a chance this would work on regular paper...
    • Re:Kludgy? (Score:2, Informative)

      by Myko ( 11551 )
      How long could I write before I had to dump it?

      up to 40 pages at a time
      (from this [logitech.com] page

    • well it my be kludgy now - but at least its being worked on and that they managed to get it into a small package.

      Give it a while - someone will come up with a non-proprietary-paper-requiring version with wireless - then all geeks can rejoice.
    • Re:Kludgy? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by wavedeform ( 561378 )
      The main problem with trying to use the ball for tracking is that you would only know relative movement. Writing involves a lot of absolute positioning. The custom paper is cool because the pen knows where it is on the paper at all times. I can imagine a system with gyros and accelerometers that allows for capturing handwriting without a special surface, but I think that you would have to align the pen with every use.
  • erasing (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sploreg ( 595722 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:48PM (#4514312)
    How does it handle erasing? Can you digitally white-out your mistakes before it is uploaded? It's a neat idea, but I don't see many people using it. The only thing worse than a paper trail is a digital trail.
  • by Dark Coder ( 66759 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:48PM (#4514319)
    Oh dear...

    First, a poster of someone else's face (facial recognition evasion).

    Second, the goey fingerprint duplicator,

    now this walk-by signature hacker on a PDA?

    What would be next?

    Hijacking IRIS pattern (simply stareing at the bathroom mirror)?

    Stolen DNA pattern?

    There is no solid defense against unrevokable but stolen biometric parameters.
  • by RestiffBard ( 110729 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:56PM (#4514392) Homepage
    then I went to the website and learned that unless you use windows its a paperweight. not even a heavy paperweight.

    I didn't even bother to find out how much it was. I really liked the idea at first but upon learning that I need MS IE and .Net in order to use the thing my desire to have one went out the window.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:56PM (#4514401)
    I have tested the Sony Ericsson Bluetooth Pen paired with their T68i GSM phone. I was evaluating it for a possible global industrial applicaiton.

    I must say that while the concept is great, the technology isn't "there" yet. During my test, I had various tracking problems when filling out a digital paper form.

    Also, if a form was successfully filled out, the handwriting resolution was very dim. The image quality was acceptable if the form was filled out in big, bold, and neat manuscript letters.

    This might be acceptable for some applications, but daily, our millions of customers have millions of writing styles.

    There simply wasn't a way to increase the resolution for productive use with our proprietary industrial OCR engine.

    I'm going to keep up with the technology and wait for improvements in this area. The concept is fantastic and I expect the technology will be more refined within a year or so.
  • If this takes off, then they've created the first PC-based "razor-blade" market - companies make nothing on the razors, all of the (very high) profits are from the blades - outside of printer consumables.

    Assuming, of course, that they've patented & copyrighted things well enough to require you to buy Logitech (R) (TM) supplies.

    I've always loved Logitech products. If this takes off, then good for them!
  • by bflong ( 107195 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @12:57PM (#4514407)
    The subject says it all. Optical mice can track movement on almost ANY surface. Why should this pen be any diffrent? Needing special paper completely ruins this product.
    • It's not just that it tracks relative movements like an optical mouse, it also needs absolute coordinates. For one thing, when you pick up your pen, how does it know where you put it down again? Also, it needs to support stuff like checkboxes on the page that say "EMAIL", "FAX", and so on. Otherwise how would the software know you were putting a mark in the checkbox? How would it know you're using the fax page with checkboxes on the left, rather than on top, etc.?

      See, they have a gigantic "map" of every piece of paper and what's on it. Every piece of paper (or maybe just every type of product, rather than individual paper, I'm not sure) is unique. So that's how it knows what you're writing on, how big it is, where the "active" areas are, etc.

      This way you don't have to learn any special symbols, and the pen knows exactly what you're writing on without you telling it.

      Of course, if you're suitably paranoid, you might come up with some "unintended consequences".. does this mean each page is unique and can be ID'd? etc...
    • by tswinzig ( 210999 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @03:36PM (#4516273) Journal
      JESUS H. CHRIST. If I see one more comment like this modded as +5 I'm going to cry!

      The paper *IS* the technology development in this case. If you don't understand that, please look at their site again!

      If you would just think about how this could possibly work for a second, you'd realize that.

      Imagine a pen that works your way -- like an optical mouse that tracks movement. Write a long letter out by hand, and upload it to your computer. How would you expect it to look? If you said "just like my letter," you're wrong! With your 'optical mouse' technology, you'd get (if you're lucky) one long sentence.

      The special paper is what allows this thing to know WHERE the pen tip is at at all times. You could draw a circle in the upper right corner, draw a square in the lower left corner, then go back and draw an X in the circle. Then flip a page in the notebook and write a letter. Then go back to page one and draw some more objects.

      Now stick the pen in the USB device, download it, and you'll see two separate pages, just exactly as you drew them.

      And this is only scratching the surface... no pun intended.
  • Check here [lnl.net]

    It didn't do very well, applications never were developed for it. And the handwriting recognition wasn't very good either, but I never took the time to train it. A.T. Cross unfortuantly stopped making it.

    It used any notebook, but it had a special back you had to put the notepad in that recieved a signal the pen emitted. It only used serial, but this was back when USB was just showing up on the scene

  • big deal... (Score:4, Informative)

    by Lumpy ( 12016 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:00PM (#4514445) Homepage
    I would much rather have the old trackpad pen recording system... I can use any paper I desire, and just use the magnetic pen over the thin backplane that my paper is on... easier, better and costs less than the overprices $200 + another $200 a month in special paper.
  • 200 years? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Reality Master 101 ( 179095 ) <`moc.liamg' `ta' `101retsaMytilaeR'> on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:01PM (#4514457) Homepage Journal

    The first true breakthrough in pen technology in 200 years

    Er, the ball-point pen invented in 1938 [about.com] wasn't a "true" breakthrough?

    Yeah, I've always thought that ball-point pens were overrated. Fountain pens forever, baby!

  • "How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol"

    Would it be called the BlueInk protocol.

    WEll - if they did have one with Wireless capability I am sure the CIA would love a few thousand to give to visiting diplomats and anyone else in general.
  • by dpbsmith ( 263124 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:04PM (#4514479) Homepage
    Apparently the pen recognizes absolute position on the paper by recognizing x-y coordinate information encoded in the dot pattern.

    Well, is every page in the special notebook unique? And is each NOTEBOOK unique?

    Suppose you are keeping lists on pages 10, 18, and 26 of a notebook. You add an entry on page 10, flip to page 18, add an entry, flip to page 26, add an entry and download. Now what? Do you see the complete list on page 10 as it appears on the paper? Or do you see a series of separate one-line images?

    Suppose you write a note on page 3 of notebook A and then write another note on page 3 of notebook B, when you download them do you see both notes superimposed on page 3 of "the" notebook?

  • by Gruneun ( 261463 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:04PM (#4514485)
    We had a somewhat similar piece of hardware for whiteboards, though it didn't require special boards. A suction-cup-equipped sensor stuck on the board and special sleeves fit around the pens. Because we had several sleeves (for several colors) we could get pretty accurate results saved to a nearby, wired desktop. I liked the idea that all the new equipment was non-consumable and we could use our original boards and markers.

    If Logitech really wanted to impress me, the paper could be any paper, placed in a small portfolio sleeve with sensors in the corner. If they're using a template printed on the paper, just make it bold and dark, so it's easy to see through the a sheet of notebook paper. I could teach myself to write on the last piece of paper in a notebook and pull the sheet out when done. It would be much more useful to me than trying to justify a $10 notebook every couple of weeks.
  • I saw the original demoed at CTIA in Orlando earlier this year. Was very impressive when coupled with a bluetooth phone.

    One example used email forms on a pad. You wrote in the different boxes like TO: and SUBJECT: then the message below. When you marked the box checked SEND the message was squirted to the phone via bluetooth, then over the air. You could send text or digital ink which would be included in the email as an attachment.

    This looked to tbe the best way to send email if all you had was a phone. No funky predictive spelling do-dads on a standard phone keypad.

    The logitech looks like they managed to both dumb-down and encumber the thing. USB cradle? IE? .Net ? Yech!

    If the original Anoto pen was available for $199 I'd buy it. No cradle, no 20MB software loads, just use it with your bluetooth phone.
  • Could someone who knows tell me if it is possible to create a version of this idea that works with regular paper by tracking the ballpoint instead of taking pictures of special digital paper? It almost seems like Logitech has purposefully tied this product to digital paper for the sole purpose of creating recurring income. This reminds me too much of the printer and ink model. There is no way on earth I'm buying such a pen if I have to buy special paper to go with it. Give me a digital pen that works with regular paper and costs less than $70, and I'll strongly consider purchasing. Add some kind of wireless functionality (bluetooth, or even IR) so I can transmit to my PC or PDA, still for less than $70, and there is no way on earth I'm not buying the product.
  • From the FAQ [logitech.com]:
    I use Netscape exclusively as my web browser; do I still need to install Internet Explorer?
    Yes, but only if your system has an older version of Internet Explorer installed. Since Internet Explorer is a core component of Windows, many features of the Logitech io Software are dependent on the program. However, installing Internet Explorer does not mean you must use it as your browser; you can still use Netscape as your default Internet browser.


    Remember when Microsoft, during their DOJ trial, claimed that Explorer was intractable from Windows? That it was such a core component that could not be removed without crippling the whole OS? Not only were they wrong but they were caught fabricating evidence in the form of a VHS tape with telltale impossible graphics and they were busted, wholesale.

    Well this is just an example of how that fabrication -- and by extension Microsoft's influence -- affects a fair market negatively. Netscape, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror ...all out in the cold because Microsoft created their own necessity.

    "Core component" my ass.
    • Well this is just an example of how that fabrication -- and by extension Microsoft's influence -- affects a fair market negatively. Netscape, Opera, Mozilla, Konqueror ...all out in the cold because Microsoft created their own necessity.


      This is absolutely wrong. I agree that the fabrication in court was stupid, and MS's idiotic legal team could have won on factual grounds IMHO. Of course it wouldn't cripple Windows, per se. But a lot of software (not just logitech's) use the MSHTML component from IE. What logitec is saying is that a newer version of IE contains a DLL or two that they need. This is not taking over Opera, etc. because it has nothing to do with browsing the Internet nor does it have anything to do with your default browser.
  • Why not Mac compatable? OS X has great handwriting rec. in it - transfer the .pen file to Ink and pooF!

    dot NET=dot SUCKS

    Can I photocopy the paper to make my own?

  • Not that I think this is likely... but since each piece of paper is somewhat unique (one sheet from a 60,000 km^2 area.) Couldn't this be used for some kind of tracking. Microsoft uses media player (with their new update) to grab these .pen files, looks at the dot patterns to see which piece of paper it was written on, then figures out where that paper was sold. I'm getting my tinfoil hat ready now.
  • by limekiller4 ( 451497 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:09PM (#4514535) Homepage
    From the FAQ [logitech.com]:
    Why do I have to install the .NET framework?
    The .NET framework is necessary for some of the functions of the Logitech io Software.


    Oh isn't that special...
  • Logitech claims this is the first true breakthrough in pen technology in 200 years [logitech.com], but I guess the invention of the ball-point pen in 1888 [ideafinder.com] doesn't qualify. Sigh... gotta love marketing hype!!
  • One company has a dayminder that has a pressure sensitive pad under the paper and it transfers the data to your palm pilot that sits in a little cradle in the other side of the dayminder. This product does not require any special paper so lifetime costs would be much lower especially if you already own a Palm device.
  • Obviously I must have one. :^)
  • How is this different than the crossPad ? I got one of these on clearence at Staples about 3-4 years ago. Its a pen that has a radio transmitter in it, you write on regular paper on a special tablet. This records everything you write in the pad, and on paper. When you get home, you sync it to your computer (rs232, no usb) and viola, your notes ready to be converted with the included IBM handwriging recognition software.
    How is this thing any different, besides the usb?
    I really love my crossPad, its nice to have a paper copy, and a digital copy of everything I jot down.
    -Mkl
  • Is paper faulty somehow?
  • i love how they always show pictures of technologies like this where everyone happens to have perfect handwritting, with perfect spacing and tabing so that when it is imported to a PC, it still is decently usable. If i really wrote like that, I'd never have to use a computer. What they need is some kind of active translation like the writting similar on an Newton or Palm Grafiti.
  • Check out terminatorX [terminatorx.cx]
    No I mean really check it out, check out the turntables section. [terminatorx.cx] See the one made by toqer? Yeah thats me... Well anywho, on with my comment.

    I know 3 DJ's (more hobbiest) and I spent a little time watching how they scratch records, mix and all that good stuff. I noticed that when they scratched, they had a special slip pad underneath the vinyl so it would slide smoothly. This got me to thinking that it was the record that provided the most tactile feedback to the DJ, and not just the turntables.

    So I did that first prototype, it works good, but black doesn't reflect well enough so I would like to do something different. Here comes my big question to the people in the know.

    Since this device is more than just a mouse (it takes pictures and sends them back to the pc) could you track the position on the record with a visual cue? Like a pattern, a barcode or something? I'm thinking if it could be done, just distribute a PDF so people could print up thier own records.


  • www.seikosmart.com [seikosmart.com]

    I think I will still prefer the InkLink [seikosmart.com], especially since it clips to any pad of paper, not require special digital paper. It is also only $100 vs. $200 for the io pen (SmartPad: $100, SmartPad2: $150) and works with PC(windows they should say), Palm, and PocketPC

  • I loose about 1-3 pens a week. So how much would that turn out to be?

    Second question: Is there anyone old enough to remember why typing was invented? I thought it was invented so that we don't have to read ugly handwriting.

    My professor's handwriting was really bad. Once I recd a post-it from him and went to ask him what it says. He was out of the office, so I asked his secretary. Well she couldn't read it. By chance his son came over there (then a UC Berkeley student), neither could he read it. Finally one of his colleagues (they had worked 15 years together) could read it. It was all non-technical. Now imagine if he had this pen and he sent all his emails in his hand-writing.

  • How cool would this be with support for a wireless protocol?"

    Good luck. I seriously doubt logitech would provide information on developing such a driver for this device.

    Boycott Logitech [fperkins.com]
  • Seiko makes a similar product, although it requires a reader at the top of the page you use, you can use any kind of paper, so it's less expensive in the long term. It uses USB to connect to a computer or it can send the data via infrared to a palm or pocketpc

    here is the company info about it [seikosmart.com]

    I got it to take class notes and it works great. The only bad thing is having to re-position the clip after you write on each page...

  • by stienman ( 51024 ) <adavis&ubasics,com> on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @01:42PM (#4514900) Homepage Journal
    This is essentially a glorified 2D barcode reader. The camera captures enough information in the little dots to know where it is with good precision in the 60 thousand killometer 2 dimensional barcode.

    They couldn't use an optical mouse mechanism because it can't tell where on the page it is. They have a 60 thousand kilometer space so if you go back to the same page you wrote on a week ago and make changes then it'll show up on the correct page.

    They could simplify it, though, by allowing generic pads to be made where each page in a pad is unique, but if you want to change to a different pad you have to scan the top bound ridge first so it knows you're on a different pad. The pads are currently expensive because each sheet has to be printed individually. Make it simpler with the suggestion above and you can at least make the pads duplicates of 90 different printed sheets.

    I suspect it'll flop. People will only buy the special pads for the pen, but they won't always have a special pad available when they want to write something down.

    I think a simpler technology could suffice here with the parts of an optical mouse. It only needs to know which words are continous, and you can reformat their actual layout later, if needed, on the computer. Add a cheap accelerometer and it'll have a good idea of where things are in relation to each other. Add some powerfull post-processing software and it'll be able to eat drawings as well, matching up areas where the camera saw previously drawn lines.

    In the end, this is a hardware solution to a problem begging for a software solution.

    -Adam
  • Think about it- all of your grad school notes (becuase undergrad courses are worthless... 'cept maybe the ones you take in your senior year, unless you take "basket weaving 101" your last semester so you can spend time getting drunk and laid...oh wait, I'm on slashdot...)

    kept for posterity- better yet- all of your grad school and PhD stuff in a format you can easily save and print out later. Sounds like a note takers dream for those qualifying exams!

    This should be standard issue gift for any friends/relatives going on to higher education.
    -

    Actually, I could justify this for work- frequently I take notebooks worth of notes, just to save 'em off for that one day where I will transcribe everything to a notes file... YEAH RIGHT.

    This would take the work out of it.

    I'm buying 3.
  • This product would be useful if it did not require special paper. The paper requirement is going to make this a niche or early adopter product at best. What I don't understand is why all these tech companies are moving to pen based products, especially the tablet pc. By the time the technology is solid, most purchasers will be comfortable with keyboard and mice interfaces, tablet and pen computing will be relegated to specialty uses. Just go to any college computer lab. Freshmen type 50 wpm with 10 IM windows open.A large amount of the people who desire pen based products will be dead in 15 years.
  • The other gotcha about the IO (and, Anoto thus far in general) is that it is ballpoint-based. there really is nothing in the technology that makes is particularlly suited to ballpoints. So, you get a very expensive crappy pen.


    Why not multimode? Have modules to support a rollerball, fountain pen, or even a mechanical pencil?

  • Easier ways... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by MrIcee ( 550834 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @02:03PM (#4515124) Homepage
    This just seems to me to be an overpriced way to sell a lot of specialized paper. The entire concept of paper where every sheet is unique (dot wise) from every other sheet means immediatly it's got a finite lifetime (like, imagine a warehouse fire where 2 million reams of the stuff disappear).

    I'm surprised that nobody has done anything novel such as a small coil in the tip and a ink ball that has a partial metal structure. In such a system you should be able to sense the ball movement and direction. The ball would be super cheap and could be your renuable revenue stream by selling the replacement ink cartridges. Furthermore, such a sensor would be so small that it could easily be placed into just about any profile - not the bloated fat (and probably uncomfortable) pen they came up with.

    I mean, isn't a pen nothing more than a very very very tiny mouse ball? Sensing it's rotation and position should not be hard asuming you can fiddle with the balls composition.

    I don't see any novel technology here, only bad design.

  • Why? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by OverCode@work ( 196386 ) <overcode@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @02:59PM (#4515818) Homepage
    This is not a troll; I'm serious in doubt as to why this product is useful.

    Notepads are useful largely because they're essentially disposable; you can scribble as much as you want without worrying about running out of paper or about it costing too much. $10 for a replacement notebook is a bit steep. I usually pay $1 or so for my notebooks.

    So I can get an image of my notebook pages... doesn't a $50 scanner do the same thing? Ok, so a scanner takes a little while and only handles a page at a time. Is that limitation worth $150 to that many people, especially with an extra $7 per notebook?

    Cool technology, but I doubt this will be a successful product.

    -John
  • by Julian Morrison ( 5575 ) on Wednesday October 23, 2002 @03:25PM (#4516122)
    Is your neighbor hoarding pencils? Since the Prevention Of Subversion Act (2009) was passed, all pens have been required to have proper government wireless logging. Owning a pencil is illegal. Report hoarders to the police! Your house may be inspected for contraband at any time - if we catch you with illegal untapped writing materials, the penalty is incarceration as an enemy combatant in Traitor City X-ray. Remember citizen, information is the poison by which treason subverts patriotism. Eternal war for eternal peace! Heil Bush!

"A mind is a terrible thing to have leaking out your ears." -- The League of Sadistic Telepaths

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