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Technology

Help Wire Remote Laos Villages 291

Posted by timothy from the net-drop-in-every-pot dept.
rODbegbie writes "Lee Felsenstein is appealing for donations to help provide Internet access to remote Laos villages. The New York Times considered the idea one of the best in 2002, but they need to raise $25,000 to get this in place before monsoon season. Donations can be made using Paypal (mention that it's for "Remote IT")."
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Help Wire Remote Laos Villages More

Help Wire Remote Laos Villages

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  • I'm sure AOL... (Score:5, Funny)

    by craenor ( 623901 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:37PM (#5001018) Homepage
    Would be more then happy to send them a bunch of CD's if that helps.

    • Re:I'm sure AOL... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by jareth780 ( 176411 )
      The people of Laos don't need internet access, they need more food and a better standard of living.

      "Why don't you help them out with that, then?"

      I'm only one person. What can I do? Besides, I'd rather just sit here and surf the web.

    • and ... (Score:3, Funny)

      by Greedo ( 304385 )
      ... I now know where to send some of the $30 MILLION DOLLARS that my dear friend Mr. Mboto of Nigeria will be wiring to my account very shortly.
  • "... appealing for donations to help provide Internet access to remote Laos villages ..."



    I can't even afford my wired connection, let alone anone else's wireless conection!

    Sorry to be stingey, but I need to read /. from home too :)


  • Do they really want to do this before monsoon season? I'd suggest after myself...less damage to the wires...
    • the rains will come every year, they have to be build so that they'll survive it.

      however, you really want to work with electronics in an all-out-end-of-the-world-rain?

  • Weirdly appropriated money (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:41PM (#5001058)
    People need food and shelter before they can worry about getting online. I know that it's stupid to say that they should be donating something else, but...it just seems like there's a huge push to get underdeveloped areas on the 'net instead of taking care of necessities first.
    • it just seems like there's a huge push to get underdeveloped areas on the 'net instead of taking care of necessities first


      I "think" that the "deep thinkers" are thinking that educating these people w/ the Internet will teach them how to take care of themselves. They are probably thinking this will open their ees to a whole new world of possibilities and ideas that they are not accustomed to ....

      But honestly, I think it is more like the scene in the "Sum of All Fears" where the people that live in huts, selling nuclear bomb materials to terrorists are putting pleas on the Internet for help. The "deep thinkers", like those people on TV that want you to feed a child for 70 cents per day, don't want to be bothered by raising money for these people any more ... they want them to go out there and beg for money themselves!

      (j/k) :)


      • Kudos, I've been to Burma (same part of world), and in many places things have not changed since the 5th century. Men and women ply their work in the rice fields, all implements are handmade, their mode of transportation is the water-buffalo.

        The average salary per day worldwide is less than a dollar. With that investment, you could feed a person for nearly 70 years.

  • Hmmmm (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Gortbusters.org ( 637314 )
    This sounds interesting, but what is the total value proposition for internet usage to a bunch of village farmers?

  • CommentAnticipator: (Score:5, Funny)

    by mumblestheclown ( 569987 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:42PM (#5001064)
    CommentAnticipator says:
    • Will the computers run open source software?
    • Aren't there more valuable projects that we could spend money on?
    • Jokes about the guy pedalling running out of power just as half the pr0n picture is downloaded.
    • In soviet russia, computer bicycles you
    • Comments about pop-up ads, spam, and the fact that internet access is no guarantee of anything.
    • A few semi-related comments about land mines.

    • Re:CommentAnticipator: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      In Soviet Russia, comments anticipate you!

      (...thank God I remembered to post AC)

  • More important things than the Internet (Score:5, Insightful)

    by stevejsmith ( 614145 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:42PM (#5001067) Homepage

    I don't think that Laos needs free Internet connections. I think what they need is houses, and a literacy rate above 60%. How do expect a small village, only 60% literate, to know how to use the Internet? In a country where the phones to people ratio is well over 1:100, I doubt that the Internet will be of must use.

    I'll repeat what I said about India regarding the Simputer: there are more important things than the Internet. You know, food, water, shelter during the monsoon season

    • Re:More important things than the Internet (Score:5, Insightful)

      by plierhead ( 570797 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:54PM (#5001202) Journal
      I don't think that Laos needs free Internet connections. I think what they need is houses, and a literacy rate above 60%. How do expect a small village, only 60% literate, to know how to use the Internet?

      I agree theres a whole lot of other stuff they need more than internet access. But, if thats whats on offer, I wouldn't say it is useless because of high illiteracy rates. It might only take one semi-literate person in a small village, AND some compelling content, to plant the seeds for others to teach themselves to read. It might be surprising just what people can teach themselves, and perhaps the internet could be the key to reducing illiteracy.

      • Re:More important things than the Internet (Score:4, Informative)

        by stevejsmith ( 614145 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:00PM (#5001267) Homepage
        However would you disagree that $25,000 worth of teaching jobs would probably be at least twice as useful? When teachers get paid less than $500 per year, that could buy five teachers for ten years. A much better investment, I would say.
      • I think this goes in under the whole "give a man a fish, and he has food for the day; teach a man to fish and he has food for a lifetime" sort of concept. Consider the following: a lot of villagers in the world are suffering because the only way they can obtain capital to buy a small piece of land or tools for their farm is from local usurers. In some countries, like India, non-profit (but not "operating-at-a-loss" either) banks specializing in so-called "microloans" have sprung up and have substantially made it easier for the poorest of the poor to obtain credit. The biggest problem is the sheer cost of outreach...

        (Also, because someone asked, this page [jhai.org] describes the hardware and software... it's basically Linux with a localized version of KDE.

    • Amen to that.

      Maybe we should do something about AIDs, mass starvation, and the infant mortality rate in third world nations before we start handing out chat handles and email accounts.
      • While you can't eat the cable or the towers that would need to be built, the information one can get for it, provided the technology be provided to the people, may be quite valuable.

        I, for instance, could contribute hardware, if I ran a company like linksys. Money on the otherhand, I would give towards other, more direct things. So don't bang the charity of it all. If it was giving away cocaine, well.. that's bad :)

    • Re:More important things than the Internet (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Draxinusom ( 82930 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:07PM (#5001329)
      Did you bother to read any of the linked webpages? First of all, there are plenty of useful applications for the internet: to get accurate and timely information about crops pricing, to stay in touch with relatives scattered by poverty and war, to bid on things like construction jobs. The bare necessities are also desperately needed, but it's not completely inconceivable that one communally-owned computer could bring much more cost-effective and immediate benefit to a village than, say, literacy education, which while necessary in the long-term is expensive and doesn't pay dividends for years. Secondly, if you take what's been written about this project in good faith, this is something that the Laotian villagers asked for. It's fantastic that you seem to know better than the people themselves what they need, but unless you're going to put your money where your mouth is and pony up some housing, why deride the efforts of people who are actually trying to help?
      • This is something that the Laotian villagers asked for.

        I don't think it's reasonable to expect 4th-worlders to necessarily know what's best for them.

        I've heard a story from a missionary to SE Asia describe this problem. He asked an utterly destitute mountain village what they needed, and first they said more alcohol. When he urged them to focus on the absoluete necessities, what would improve their standard of living, they discussed amongst themselves... and replied, "We've decided that what would really make our lives better is having a karaoke machine like they have in the town."

        It took the missionary and his wife a year just to teach them basic hygiene.

        Somehow, I don't think having access to cnn.com and cnet.com is what these people really need...

      • Sure, that's what they asked for, and I don't mean to be ethnocentric, but do you really think that they know what's best? The farmers are interested in one thing: earning money. The Internet would benefit these farmers. However, what about the people earning half as much in the slums? Don't you think they need it more than the farmers do? Sure, the farmers are poor, but these people in the slums are poor-er. In the end, nobody will end up earning even close to the cost of an iMac, but those who can't even afford the CD-Rs might be a little better off, and maybe some day they can even afford their own pair of chopsticks.

    • Re:More important things than the Internet (Score:5, Insightful)

      by raju1kabir ( 251972 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:11PM (#5001360) Homepage
      I don't think that Laos needs free Internet connections. I think what they need is houses, and a literacy rate above 60%. How do expect a small village, only 60% literate, to know how to use the Internet?

      So you don't think that anyone should be able to do anything beyond subsistence until everyone has been raised to their level?

      You have to keep education and opportunity moving forward, or else there's no room for people to grow into.

      Among the 60% who are literate, some will do great things given the opportunity. They will also be able to prepare their society for a smoother transition into greater capacity when more resources are available, because computers will not be alien to them.

      Of course, you and Trotsky are free to disagree with me.

      • I think that education would move along faster if they spent the money on teachers rather than on Internet access.
        • I think that education would move along faster if they spent the money on teachers rather than on Internet access.

          This isn't Laos government money getting spent. The amount of money available is for all practical purposes unlimited.

          People who think teachers are useful will donate to hire teachers. People who think computers are useful will donate to buy computers. These are by and large not intersecting groups. Some donors donate to technology projects. Others donate to more traditional projects.

          Very few donors (or individuals) wake up one morning and decide, "I want to donate a fixed amount to empower Laotian villagers!" and then search for the first approach that comes along. Instead, they are solicited by projects based on their history of funding certain types of efforts.

          As for the general question of teachers vs computers, both are useful. In many cases I think a computer is more useful than a foreign teacher with imperfect language and cultural skills who will learn more about Laos than they'll learn from him/her. An effective Laotian teacher would be the best of all, but they may be in short supply and I suspect the reason for this is not because of a shortage of salary money (i.e., direct staff funding) but rather a shortage of the institutional educational resources that are required to manufacture effective teachers in the first place.

          • I agree with everything you said, and I doubt that this $25,000 will ever be spent on teachers (I know I sound critical, but I think that if it's not going to be spent on anything else but Internet access, it's still a good thing), however I think that getting a Laotian teacher would be easier than you think. They aren't working because there aren't jobs, and there aren't jobs because people don't have the money to employ people to work in jobs. I think that if the $25,000 was used as salary they could attract some teachers.
    • God forbid they have a way to get information on weather, or have an avenue which could help them get a better life. The internet is about communication, and open comunication and shared knowledge is the path to improving life.

      I can see someone like you a few hundred years ago:
      "the poor have for more important needs then this, Gutenburg!"
      • I think that the Internet is a great thing for the farmers. But what about the other people in the village? They are poorer than the farmers and need the money more. So yes, the Internet would most likely be a help to farmers, but then you're forgetting about the people who can't even pay for the food from the farmers.
    • I agree that surfing slashdot is a poor substitute for food, shelter and medical care.

      But consider that access to the net can help with many of the basic things. You may not have a doctor, but you can find medical info on the web. You can learn new and better ways to grow food and build shelter rather than whatever your grandfather was taught by his grandfather.

      And not least, by knowing about what goes on in the world, you can become a better informed citizen and less of a clueless and easily manipulated pawn of whoever is in charge.
      • Yes, but medical EQUIPMENT is better than MEDICAL ADVISE. And you could higher a real doctor for that kind of money (USD 25,000 is a lot in Laos). And plus, don't you think that they would put up a firewall similar to the Graet Red Firewall of China? They're a communist country remember...

  • Pointless (Score:3, Insightful)

    by geek ( 5680 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:43PM (#5001076)
    Most people in Laos don't have computers or even a need for one. Why would internet connections be "one of the best ideas of 2002"??
    • You're missing the point. Or maybe you didn't read the article. A bicycle powered computer is being developed for the people in Laos, which is in addition to the internet connection. If even a few farmers are able to find out the weather, it could increase income for crops, and help the country become more developed.
  • Is it going to tear down the newly paid internet access and require more donations?

  • Who initiated? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tau_bada ( 465512 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:44PM (#5001092)
    Is this project at the behest of the villages or an outside person assuming only positive things will result? Cultures have been quickly torn apart by ideas which seemed positive to outside initiators.

    • Re:Who initiated? (Score:4, Informative)

      by ntk ( 974 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @06:16PM (#5001969) Homepage
      It's my understanding that it was initiated by the locals, who asked for access to information and knowledge about stuff like crop prices.

      I wrote a bit about this in my Irish Times article [oblomovka.com] on the project:


      Farmers will be able to monitor the price of crops in the town markets, negotiate group purchases with the other villages, and make business deals without having to spend days travelling away from the farm. And families will be able to make direct contact for the first time with the Laotian Diaspora - relatives who've left the war-torn area to earn money in the capital of the country, and beyond.

      Cheap technology like this, dropped into the very poorest of countries, may provide a chance for these nations to leapfrog into the digital revolution.

      Of course, there'll always be someone who'll argue that providing this kind of technology to the least developed countries of the world is missing the point: that we should, as Bill Gates said recently, be spending our money instead on medical and food projects. And, of course, everyone involved in the Jhai project suggests we should do that too. But it's notable that it was the rural villagers themselves who asked for ways to communicate and gain knowledge, not the foundation.


      Info about donating via Paypal [oblomovka.com] here.

  • oh for the love of god (Score:3, Interesting)

    by tps12 ( 105590 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:45PM (#5001098) Homepage Journal
    This is just rediculous. Couldn't we focus on giving them something a little more practical like, you know, food, clean water, and medical supplies?

    I'm just sick of the techno-fetishism that's taking the place of true humanitarian efforts and generosity. These people don't need cell phones and microwaves, they need basic living supplies. Let them establish some hygenic standards and bring the infant mortality rate down, and we can worry about convenience later. Never mind that the health effects of wireless networks have not yet been studied in great detail. For heaven's sake, we could be sending these people to their graves with invisible radiation!

    The PayPal thing is just insult upon injury. I'll make my donations by check, thanks, so none of my money goes to line the pockets of some hokey e-business that can't even protect its own databases (and doesn't claim to!).
  • There's just one problem. How do you bring the Web to people who don't have phone lines -- or even electricity?

    The NYT article then explains that the villagers are powering their computers using pedal-power. I wonder how long it'll be before they use pedal-power to power their cell-phones and pda's?

    And I wonder if the amish will start using technology like this? I know they are (mostly) strictly against electricity, but this could be a loophole.

  • Is this necessary? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by rblancarte ( 213492 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:45PM (#5001105) Homepage
    I just came back from a small village in Mexico about the size of this one. They have internet access now, but I have to ask: Do these people really need it?
    These people have gotten along fine without computers, why do they need them now?
    Sure, it is a nice convenience for tourists when they travel to these areas, but you can't tell me indiginious people, such as these, truely need internet access or computer usage.

  • You're Joking Right? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by _Neurotic ( 39687 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:46PM (#5001108) Journal
    Remote Laos villages?
    Sorry but speaking as an American, I'm more worried about wiring remote US villages and schools.
    • The Peace Corps is the single most effective anti-terrorist technique used by humans in recorded history.

      No, really. If you solve people's immediate problems, there is less cause for extremism. The cheapest, most effective way to end terrorism, is to make foreigners happier. If we can help some village in Laos better able to market it's goods, this could help you and I, sitting in our warm cozy chairs in the US of A.

      Your ROI in Laos can be higher than your ROI in Kansas. This is enlightened self interest. Welcome to classical liberalism.
    • Speaking as someone who's not American, why does your comment not surprise me.
    • Wow! I've been accused of being both a Nazi and a Jew in the same thread! LOL!

      BTW, I am neither. In any case, it's not that I don't believe in helping anyone outside of the US, it's just, I mean, wiring for the net? C'mon! How about running water and a decent road system?

      I tend to agree with some of the other posters in this thread that some people have their priorities whacked, acting as though Internet access is the panacea for all ills.
  • Geez, I hope that PayPal doesn't freeze their funds on them [paypalsucks.com].

  • I didn't realize that Henry Blodgett was now at the New York Times!

  • This crap is absurd. Did Al Gore start this? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by ThresholdRPG ( 310239 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:48PM (#5001136) Homepage Journal
    I am getting really fed up with these appeals to make the general population of either our nation or the world PAY for internet access for others. Internet access is *NOT* equivalent to food or health care.

    I realize we all feel the internet is a miraculous invention that is "setting people free." I generally hold this view as well. But it is not a necessity!

    This reminds me of all of the extra fees on your telephone bill that were put there by Al Gore. Yes, the "creating of the internet" that Al Gore takes credit for is largely the sneaky tax increases he jammed through Congress by adding numerous fees to your phone bill. That money is then used as welfare to (supposedly) give free internet access to low income folks. That is *NOT* the proper role of government.

    Similarly, bringing internet access to the jungles of Southeast asia is *NOT* the role of charitable organizations and it is certainly not the type of project that should be gobbling up the limited funds charitable people have to donate to causes in the world.

    Internet access is a part of a nation's technological and industrial infrastructure that needs to evolve organically along with the rest of its culture. You cannot take a country that is 50+ years behind the western industrialized world and plop down mondern internet technology. It makes no sense and it is a huge waste. If you want to help these countries economically, you need to help them get a basic economic infrastructure in place so they can actually grow in a normal fashion.

    This kind of crap is frivilous, back-patting BS being done by people who want to feel like they are "making the world a better place." In truth, they are accomplishing nothing.

    If you want to help out people in the 3rd world, join the Peace Corps.
    • They are mor elike 200 years behind in most areas. They have no plumbing in the large majority of the country and electricty isn't even a consideration.

      Even the ancient Greeks and Romans had plumbing for health reasons.
    • I guess it has become stylish to post before readin the full articles. Oh wait, that has always been in style.
      Internet access is *NOT* equivalent to food or health care.
      Kinda funny how you mention health care, but had you read some of the actual linked articles you would read about how the final link to the Internet from the 5 village WiFi network is located where -- in a hospital.
      This reminds me of all of the extra fees on your telephone bill that were put there by Al Gore. Yes, the "creating of the internet" that Al Gore takes credit for is largely the sneaky tax increases he jammed through Congress by adding numerous fees to your phone bill. That money is then used as welfare to (supposedly) give free internet access to low income folks. That is *NOT* the proper role of government.
      That's funny, I must have skipped over the part that mentions our government's role in all this.
      Similarly, bringing internet access to the jungles of Southeast asia is *NOT* the role of charitable organizations...
      I was unaware that there are base rules dictating what form of help a charitable organization is allowed to offer. Are you the head of the Charitable Organization Rules Committee?
      If you want to help these countries economically, you need to help them get a basic economic infrastructure in place so they can actually grow in a normal fashion.
      All in all, these five villages are actually doing fairly well. They are now able to grow surplus rice and they wish to export handmade textiles. The computers and network will allow these people to grow financially. As I understand it they either do now (although not from a local phone) or they used to use telephone calls to check market prices, etc. Access to the network and phone system that is proposed will incur charges, allowing it to be a self sustaining system. It sounds to me like they've got the basic economic infrastructure in place already, they're just getting a 200 year technological boost to help compete in the world market.

      Don't take this rant personally ThresholdRPG, I know I quoted from your post, but only out of convenience. It is pretty obvoius that the majority of people who have posted comments did not even bother to read a single link from the /. "article".

      Now... Since I've played the devil's advocate, my opinion: I think we've got enough things to worry about here in our own country that would make a better choice for my donations. Hell, if we're trying to give people Internet connections, how about our own underprivledged schools? Wouldn't it be great if we didn't have to look overseas for programmers, etc. etc. etc.
    • --I'm involved as a major hobby/avocation in my life with survival/preparedness issues. The internet has a wealth of information that these people can put to practical use in a "low tech" lifestyle. As pointed out in the articles, they can get better quality weather information, and seek out better markets for their produce and handicrafts. Perhaps better resources to find better seeds or better hand tools, lotsa stuff. How about plans to make home made solar cookers? And even getting an extra buck here and there from selling their stuff more efficiently means a lot to them. They can also find out better ways to get clean water, better and cheaper building techniques, they can use the net as a remote school for their children, they can find new alternative energy sources and techniques,etc,etc. Folks from those regions who are now living abroad can now maybe communicate cheaper via chat and email to the folks "back home", another plus. It's part of the need for better transportation and better communication that everyone needs-not just already "civilised" people. You can't advance as a people-at least economically- without more modern transportation and communications, it's hardly possible, and a "start" has a "beginning" to it, this looks like one of those "beginnings" to me.

      All in all it's a "good thing". I'm also in favor of helping various people around the world in so called "third world" and "second world" areas make a better living for themselves at home so they are less inclined to emigrate to the US, and the good will garnered by them knowing they received a little help and notice from rank and file joe sixpack "rich americans" might help to offset this growing mistrust and hate they are developing-at least they can "see" on the net what's going on around the world and not be forced to "guess" or only know what the local fatcat exploiters tell them. If all ya got is the local warlord giving you info, "something else" might help out-maybe anyway.

      What would be kinda neat is one year from now, some guy in one of these villages gets an account here and drops a story about what happened, how it helped his village, etc.
    • I am getting really fed up with these appeals to make the general population of either our nation or the world PAY for internet access for others. Internet access is *NOT* equivalent to food or health care.

      First of all, nobody is making do anything. They are asking for a dontation. If you don't think it's prudent use of your hard earned money, then don't give.

      Second of all, internet access is not equivalent to food or health care, but it could be considered as part of a close third. Communication.

      The internet is a very cheap but capable communications device. Email allows people who don't have a phone and can not pay of a service to send messages to love ones, as someone else stated.

      It does not mean everyone is going to have a laptop with 11b. There could be one office, similar to a telegraph office, for send and delivering messages.

      World news can be printed, everyday and distributed. How much would a newspaper subscription cost otherwise? Maybe it's read over the radio, maybe it's sold at a price closer to what locals can afford.

      This kind of crap is frivilous, back-patting BS being done by people who want to feel like they are "making the world a better place." In truth, they are accomplishing nothing.

      How easily you dispatch the hard work and efforts of others trying to do good for people that probably never could repay them.

      When was the last time you tried that?

    • bring the internet to somebody is not the role of the government, or the role of people that want to do that?
      That...Thats your arguement.

      If I was living day to day, as a farmer in a crappy village, I would want an avenue, any avenu, to improve my life. That includes a way to educate myself, get weather forcasts, or ways to infuse new ideas into my culuture. the internet is probably the best way to do that.
      and since the people of Laos ASKED FOR INTERNET ACCESS, I would think thats what they want, and have ideas on how they can use the internet as a TOOL to improve there lives. however, it was nice of you to say what they should get, and how othewr people should help them.
      Its people like you that make it so people won't help.

      Dumbass.

    • Peace Corps (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Nomar ( 138108 )
      Funny that you mention the Peace Corps...I have a good friend who just ended his Peace Corps tour in rural Thailand (about two hours from the Laos border). One of the main projects he worked on was writing grant proposals to fund a similar wireless infrastructure for hilltribe villages. In this case, it was mainly for use as an intranet. Having quick communication is basic economic infrastructure.

      I'll add that all of this was initiated by the hilltribes themselves. They see the benefits of technology and will probably use them in ways we don't expect, probably in ways a lot more useful than our websurfing.

  • Get to know Lee (Score:5, Informative)

    by ch-chuck ( 9622 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:51PM (#5001171) Homepage
    Read an interview here [opencollector.org].
    Lee was involved in getting public access terminals deployed in the early 70's in San Francisco, created the Pop 'Tronics "Penny Whistle Modem" project, and the highly collectible SOL-20 personal computer, member Honbrew Computer Club - this guy was /there/ during the genesis of the personal computer revolution.

  • Gee, I'm sure glad that the related links table for this article gives me the opportunity to "Compare the best prices on: Consumer Electronics" via OSDN's Pricegrabber...

    Sad...
  • My in-laws live about 30 min from St. Cloud minnesota and can't even get dial-up access. I have broadband where I live and don't really consider it very helpful, I can live without it just fine, maybe what they could really use in these remote places is better healthcare, or clean water or something. The ability to download massive amounts of pr0n is not gonna help anyone anywhere.

  • In this village... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by dillon_rinker ( 17944 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @04:55PM (#5001224) Homepage
    Do they have clean running water?
    Do they have a sanitary sewer system?
    Do they have locally sustainable agriculture?
    Do they have regular medical care?
    • Do they have clean running water?
      Do they have a sanitary sewer system?
      Do they have locally sustainable agriculture?
      Do they have regular medical care?

      There are lots of places in the US right now that don't have these things. 1000's of Americans leave below the poverty line, many without basic healthcare.

      Should they be denied net access because of this?

      The people could use the internet as cheap communication with the outside world. That alone would be worth the effort. Not to mention downloading teaching material etc.

      The internet is a cheap communications device, that's something every culture/society can use.

      Think outside how you use the internet for at least 5 minutes.

    • Re:In this village... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by reconbot ( 456259 )
      No offence but shut the hell up. I'm currently a little blown away that this made it to Slashdot because well.. I know the guy. My mom used to date him, and this summer on a trip to California I sat and had lunch with him and heard all about this. (Take in mind it was just over lunch)

      First off the big deal isn't Internet its telephone - VOIP acutely. This is a place where running wires is almost impossible and maintaining anything is complicated due to changing governments. Honestly I'm not sure how he plans to deal with the governments, but he does have it right when it comes to how to deal with the wires. This is a guy who's designed a few wireless systems before, he can make this one work.

      But, back to the point. They don't even have telephone over there. Each village no matter how friendly to each other has to send a person trekking through the mountains to communicate with them. Now the big thinkers on Slashdot can tell you how important communication is to a community, I won't. And this project would be worthwhile if it only got the villages talking to each other. VOIP can be routed to the traditional POTS given the proper equipment, even on a country scale. I don't remember if he was going to hook the phones up to the rest of the world (or if he could yet - the local government is weary about this whole project) but I do remember that if he doesn't do it, he'll leave it so it *can* be done.

      There was also a nice little discussion about how just email access to the internet could allow them to research better farming techniques, even diagnose medical problems. (Maybe not perfect or all of them but better if they had no doctor.) I was busy eating some delicious.. I don't know what it was - Thai food - good stuff. You'd have to ask my mother the details on this one. But honestly I'm sure any of you could come up with 1000 better ideas right now then an Old Techie, an Herbalist, and a kid just starting in college could do, so I'm not going to go rush and bother and bother anyone on account of this.

      Now secondly as smart as Lee is I doubt he's an export in providing constant water access, or digging sewers in the jungle, or on medical care. They don't even need sewers. Laos has people who live there to worry about that. They've been living there for quite a while so I'd think they have a good idea how to deal with things like sewage and drinking water.

      The lunch was a lot of fun. I just went and read the post about his youth career of providing terminals for free. The biggest challenge was the terminal server (I'm sure it was called something else.) because it broke all the time and when his group got it, it came with zero documentation. Not that it helped much anyway when they finally landed a copy of the multi volume set. He also talked about designing the first video card. There is some debate over if it was exactly the first, but he doesn't care enough about the whole thing. The kicker behind that card was that it was designed and made so they could make better games. The current terminals were too slow to do too much in the way of graphics so they made one that was a hell of a lot faster. Some magazine featured it and asked what it's baud rate was (they were looking at it as a new kind of terminal) and they figured it out to be a couple of thousand times faster then anything else around.

      He's a good man and I'd like to have lunch with him again. You learn a lot just talking to a person.
    • nope, but now they will have a way to find out how to do those things for themselves.

      if people only focused on the immediate needs, and never took the time to learn new things, we would still be in the dark ages.

    • Yes, apparently they do have most of the basics covered:

      "Project Results: Phon Kham Village

      Lead contacts: Khamfanh and Noy Chanthavong
      Villagers have done a 10-year vision for their village and two six-month workplans. They have rebuilt their primary school and have developed funding for the local secondary school. They contracted the digging of four deep wells. They have stocked and lobbied for staffing of their local clinic. The women's association has started a cooperative bank. Through this nascent institution they have expanded the opportunity for weaving and poultry production to the 200 poorest families in the village. They are test marketing two products in the United States: high-end weaving and basket crafts. They have upgraded the care of their water buffalo by professional training in vaccination of 23 farmers. Next steps: next six-month plan, developing women's projects, rice expert assistance."

      Further, the people in the villages asked for this directly:

      "A year ago I was approached by Lee Thorn, a Vietnam Vet and Director of the Jhai Foundation, who from a perspective of reconciliation has been working with a group of five villages in Laos. After having been uprooted by the bombing of the Plain of Jars, the villagers have little left but their solid social structure. Lacking electricity and phones, they asked Jhai Foundation for a way to make phone calls so that they could communicate with relatives overseas and to secure local crop pricing information. They also wanted the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing so that they could bid on things like construction jobs."

  • This is indeed an incredible idea - maybe a bit far-fetched, but considering how poor and remote these places are, such measures are the only way to get connected to the rest of the world.

    Some folks might be interested to see my photo gallery of a recent trip to Laos: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~mdw/laos/ [berkeley.edu]. While there, we met a young novice monk who gave me his e-mail address!

  • one of the best in 2002

    What! Are they daft? I think bringing clean water and medicines to remote Loas villages a better "idea" and more beneficial than an Internet hookup.

    What's next? Recycled Gameboys for kids in Somalia? "Oh sorry. We don't have any food for you today, but we do have this wonderful Gameboy with Tetris instead."

  • Aye ... welcome to the slashdot donation network . (Score:4, Interesting)

    by SuperDuG ( 134989 ) <be@@@eclec...tk> on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:05PM (#5001306) Homepage Journal
    I think we need a new category with the Southpark Salley Struthers head as the icon for all "Cries for monetary help".

    And of course ... more of my opinion on the post ...

    Like I said to mandrake (a company) and many before on the slashdot donation network, NO ... the only thing that I donate to is things I can directly control. IE scholarships, trusts, etc. I wanna know who I'm benifiting not the well dressed president of the NON-PROFIT organization. I still can't believe the black-tie events I've been invited to in the name of "Charity" ... I love the fact that "feeding children" requires a fucking charity dinner ... how about this ... invite everyone to a charity dinner and then don't have one, make them see what it's like to be hungry.

    As far as internet in Laos ... laughable ... I would really like to see the benifit of this ... not from the begging for money site too. Plus ... $25,000 because grants won't come in time ... pretty optimistic about those grants coming in.

    You all really have money to burn after the holliday season? Why dontcha look at what's happening in your own backyard. Call your old college and tell them you want to start a scholarship (they won't mind really). Education is the key to it all, don't care what you say.

    • Yeah, it makes sense to be concerned about who is running a charity. The reason I got interested in this particular project is because Lee Felsenstein is running it.

      Felsenstein's already got quite the track record:

      He ran the Homebrew Computer Club [opencollector.org], and helped kickstart the PC revolution. His framework let Woz and Jobs sharpen the ideas for the Apple in front of a community of peers. His framework for the club emphasises open architecture rather than competition between inventors, something that you still see in the PC world. Basically, he's doing for Lhaos what he and a few others managed to pull off for the United States a few decades back. Oh yeah, and I remember the folk who said that putting a computer in your home was "laughable", and he asked to "really see the benifit of [that]".

      Felsenstein also invented the first cheap modem, the first portable computer, and the first community network.He wrote presciently about the "Commons of Information [opencollector.org]", years before most of us had even thought about these issues.

      I reckon I owe him ten bucks in just paying my backdues for the improvements he's already given my life. If he said he was doing the same for the Invisible Underground Mole People, I'd give him the time of the day.

      But he's not. He's doing it for Laotians. The guy who runs the Jhai Foundation, Lee Thorn, is an old Nam vet. In case you don't know this bit of American history, the US dropped more bombs on Laos than the Allies did on Germany and Japan combined. They're still trying to clean up the munitions and put their country back together again. Thinking about it, I probably owe them at least a buck, too.

      You rant about going to black-tie events, but when somebody asks you for cash via a thirdy-party Website run out of a DSL line, you're suspicious. Too suspicious, even, to do some basic research on the implications.

      Damnit, boy, that's why they do those fancy dinners. So that touchy guys like you can be reassured that this a proper "above board" appeal without you having to bother doing any original thinking. You think your local college spends money more wisely, just because it's a college? You think that the banker at your trust knows what's being done in your name? How much money do you think they wasted getting you to think this way?
      • You think your local college spends money more wisely, just because it's a college? You think that the banker at your trust knows what's being done in your name? How much money do you think they wasted getting you to think this way?

        I didn't say give to a college, I said give to a scholarship. Aid a student who is trying to better themselves through an education.

        A trust in the name of the owner can't just be moved by the banker? That money is yours or the person who owns it's account to do with as they please, 9 times out of 10 to help someone or something.

        I never said I gave to black tie events either. I think you completely missed my point so I'm not going to hide them in vague sentences of explanation.

        1. Make a difference in your own backyard. Increase the level of living for your next door neighbors in turn making your level of living higher (push pull action). Don't blindly give to some project for a country that is poor because of poor decisions of the past (remember how young even america is).

        2. Don't come to slashdot looking for money, historically slashdot has refrained from making itself into a pledge drive, but low-and-behold a new trend is starting

        3. Screw LAOS ... I think we as Americans have done enough in that part of Asia as far as lives spent and money as well. I know who was on what side, but I think it's time that we as Americans give it a rest in that part of the world.

        4. I'm a greedy bastard who worked for his money and I know that all you have to do to make as much if not more than me is get off your ass and try.

  • oh sure.... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Lxy ( 80823 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:05PM (#5001308) Journal
    I live in a large US city, 20,000 ft from the CO. My only option is dialup.

    If I move to a grass hut in Laos, I get high speed wireless.

    Yeah.....

  • This sounds like a very noble project. However, I'm concerned that we're creating yet another spam haven, a la South Korea.

    Are any safeguards in place, such as installing servers with closed relays and a truely-enforced AUP?

  • Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:16PM (#5001392)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • I've spoken out before that this is just a bad idea. Laos is a land with almost universal illiteracy, poor health care and few utilities like electricity and sewers, and now Felsenstein wants to set up internet for the elite ruling classes. I doubt that your average Laotian rice farmer will see much benefit from the internet, he's too busy farming when he has time to spare from caring for his malaria-riddled children. He'd probably prefer something more useful like some mosquito nets or a refrigerator. Most of these people are living in Stone Age conditions and people expect computers will improve their lives? They'd be happy to just move up into the Bronze Age, let alone the Computer Age.

    Send your money where it will do the most good. Laos needs many things before it needs the Internet. Here are some charities that spend their money directly on real-world projects like improving literacy through education, better sanitation and health care, care for orphans, landmine removal, etc.

    Darunee Fund for Education in Asia (Laos)
    http://www.daruneefund.org/asiamerica.htm

    Project Happy Child Laos
    http://www.happychild.org.uk/nvs/appeals/eur asia/l ao.htm

    CARE
    http://www.care.org

    UNICEF
    http://www.unicef.org/

    Of course, these are URLS from just a few minutes of googling, after weeding out the religious nutcase missionaries. Give your money where it will do the most good, where it can save a life. Forget computers and the Internet. They'll come to Laos when the Laotians are ready.

    • ". I doubt that your average Laotian rice farmer will see much benefit from the internet"

      thats because your not an Laotian rice farmer.

      Wouldn't it be good if he could get a forcast? for his crops? How about looking up different farming techniques? How about an avenue where he can get a child to learn some skill, move to the 'big city', and send some money, or supplies back to the village every month?
      then that will lead a way for more children to move out.
      This is a tool that gives them the some small control over there future.

      • You are mistaking the medium for the message. Weather forecasts and agricultural techniques can be transmitted just as easily by AM Radio or print media. The Internet is not an essential part of this equation, it adds massive complication to a simple problem. The problems of Laos are not essentially technological, so the problems cannot be solved by the application of high-technology.

  • CONFUSCIUS SAY (Score:2, Insightful)

    by PD ( 9577 )
    Internet is like fortune cookie without rest of meal.
  • Cabling is a bit premature and NOT doing them a great favor.

    Apart from the need to address the lack of food, shelter, clothing, education, uh, "somebody stop the shooting please," telephones that actually work, telephone lines that can actually carry a signal, a country side as rugged as it is lovely, swampy as it is drowned by occasional monsoons, rats the size of corgis, insulation eating cockroaches the size of Norwegian browns and a host of other disadvantages.

    Its not a good long term solution. WiFi is better.
  • into the discussions of people who didn't bother to follow up the links, but, here's a little snip:

    "Of course, there'll always be someone who'll argue that providing this kind of technology to the least developed countries of the world is missing the point: that we should, as Bill Gates said recently, be spending our money instead on medical and food projects. And, of course, everyone involved in the Jhai project suggests we should do that too. But it's notable that it was the rural villagers themselves who asked for ways to communicate and gain knowledge, not the foundation."

    There's a certain first world reverse snobbery going on when you send them a bag of rice, they say "Thank you, but what we really, really want right now is some effective means of communication," and you reply, "Well you upitty little pajama wearing dirt farmers. After all we've done for you already. Here's another bag of rice. Now shut up and be greatful."

    Please note that this project was founded by a person who participated in the bombing of Laos in the 60's and now wishes to do what he can to make up for it. So let's all ridicule the hell out of him, ok? What the hell would he know about what they really need anyway, just because he's out there in the jungle with them?

    Beyond that this is one of the most seriously cool hacks I've ever heard of, by one of the most seriously cool hackers ever, who was creating underground network hacks before most Slashdot readers had diapers to piss in and invented the portable computer.

    They're not just buying some shit from Dell and shipping it over. They're scratch building it to meet local conditions, including the computer and power source.

    If I had the money I'd be delighted to give them the whole wad, and deliver it in person to Laos, just to be able to help with this puppy.

    KFG

  • Excuse my skepticism... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Pollux ( 102520 ) <speter AT tedata DOT net DOT eg> on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:43PM (#5001635) Journal
    But something's not adding up here.

    1) We're delivering internet access to a remote country to remote villages in a far-east Asian country. Villages in that area (Laos, Vietnam, Thailand) consist mostly of small farmers and laborers who have probably never heard of the internet, let alone a computer.

    2) The reasons the villagers need computers are (taken from the article):

    a: a way to make phone calls so that they could communicate with relatives overseas

    b: to secure local crop pricing information.

    c: the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing so that they could bid on things like construction jobs.

    A sounds understandable. B...that would work as an excuse here in America, but it doesn't make sense for Laos. Remembering some old cultural information, most farms there are very small-scale (a few acres at the most), meaning that farmers wouldn't own silos. Along with the lack of huge harvests, there's seems to be no necessary need for them to periodically check up on crop pricing. And option C? ...if you read the article, it says that "This year, they're living in the 19th century; next year, they'll be in the 21st," meaning that they're doing this right now with pencil and paper, or by oral arrangement. Why a pressing need to move them into the 21st century?

    3) Expenses (again, from the webpage):

    a: $1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant

    Why are we paying a "consultant" to set up a single computer system in a remote village? Typically, someone who volunteers the time and energy to undertake such an adventure finds ways of appealing to travel agencies to cut expenses so that volunteered dollars go further.

    b: $1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer

    Why in the world are they paying $1,500 for a computer system for "the use of small spreadsheets and simple word processing"? Sure, many readers might think they're just buying a "new computer" without knowing how to get cheaper deals elsewhere. But the supposed letter has some very detailed information: "...interconnected by Wi-Fi (802.11b) digital data links and coupled to the local phone system several miles away. Through this system VOIP (digital telephone) calls could be placed to the local phone lines..." If they have that technical knowledge, they should know very well how to set up a cheaper computer system (As cheap as $400 for a new Lindows system including monitor, etc) that will accomplish the same thing.

    c: $2,500 One Complete Village Set-up

    What the hell is this? "Complete Village Set-up?" I didn't know that we were turning this into a profitable business when it involves volunteered donations! I mean, seriously, look at this supposed "line-item" description of what the project costs:

    $10 20 lbs. shipping costs
    $25 Keyboard
    $50 Headset
    $75 Antenna
    $100 Battery
    $250 Bicycle Powered Generator
    $450 CPU or Mountain Top Solar Panel
    $850 Base Station
    $1,000 One RT US-Laos Trip for One Technical Consultant
    $1,500 One Complete Jhai Computer
    $2,500 One Complete Village Set-up
    $3,000 Relay Station

    $25,000 The Full 5 Village System

    This sure doesn't add up to $25,000! And why does the village need a solar panel if they're going to generate electricity with a bicycle generator?

    This list keeps getting longer and longer. Why are they setting up a wi-fi network when much of Laos is mountainous and forest? That kind of terrain will eat up any 802.11 communication!

    On top of it all, how are they asking for donations? Through PayPal. A slick way of getting easy money, and an easy way to bag and run.

    Now, I could be completely wrong, and all this might be an actual true organization with good intentions. But as I said before, something just isn't adding up.
    • the computer that are sold in the stores, or by dell, would not last a week in laos.
      They need something durable, and that cost dollars.

      however, if you are interested, you shouod contact them, tell them your concerns, and see what they can do to prove there not fly-by night.

  • With their pie-in-the-sky beliefs. Lets go give some Laotians Internet access! Nevermind the fact that there is no health care, no sanitation system, little education, diseases and very little food. Grow up.

  • MIT's Nicholas Negroponte said it best (Score:3, Insightful)

    by madro ( 221107 ) on Thursday January 02, 2003 @05:52PM (#5001744)
    Here's the quote:
    "In the comfort of being digital, we forget the enormous leverage a single Net connection provides to, say, a rural primary school in one of the hundred poorest nations. In these places, there are no libraries and almost no books; the schoolhouse is sometimes a tree. To suddenly have access to the world's libraries - even at 4,800 bits per second - is a change of such magnitude that there is no way to understand it from the privileged position of the developed world.


    But the [rest of the world] understands. World leaders realize that the most precious natural resource of any country is its children, and that the digital world is key to education. For this reason, development is starting not only to include but to mean telecommunications."

    (http://web.media.mit.edu/~nicholas/Wired/WIRED6 -0 1.html [mit.edu] for the original.)

    To be fair, Negroponte got the 'how' wrong (he thought satellites would provide cheap internet access), but the why is spot on. People talk about how you can't leapfrog 50-200 years of development to catch up to the industrialized world ... but third-world countries can't wait around -- they *must* find ways to accelerate the process and skip stages (like the industrial revolution, perhaps) in order to build an economy to support their citizens.

    We talk about helping the poor in the US or in Europe ... you want to see poverty? Get to the rural areas of Asian countries. Do whatever you want with your money -- but at least hope the project or something like it will somehow succeed.
  • Unless I can be proven otherwise, I will assume that those technological resources will only end up going to the rich and powerful of those remote villages. I was raised in a poor remote area of Europe and I have traveled extensively throughout poor areas of developing countries and typically -- this is what I've witnessed.
  • and education before we hook them on the web ??
    I really think the digital divide concept just goes to show how little the politico's actually understand or care about the real world average working joe. Kids are starving on the streets without medical care and we are worried about email access ? Granted some of these problems can be partially address via electronic education but the fundamental problems cannot be solved by web access.

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