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Enlightenment GUI

State of the E-nion 188

Posted by michael from the dusting-off-the-enlightenment-topic-icon dept.
An anonymous reader writes: "Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) has posted a "state of the union" for the enlightenment project on their mailing list. It has been over 2 years since the last major release of the Enlightenment window manager. It looks like 0.17 is a ways off but it's nice to see an update."
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State of the E-nion More

State of the E-nion

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  • but even with the update it's hard to imagine it keeping up to, say, KDE. gotta check it out & compare, though, it's been a while

    • Re:evo is cool (Score:2, Informative)

      by localghost ( 659616 )
      Well, you could use it with KDE. It's NETWM [freedesktop.org] compatible, so you could just replace the kwin window manager with enlightment. If you want to try it out, just edit you startkde script, or set the environmental variable KDEWM to the path to enlightenment (that sounds funny) before you start KDE and it should use that instead.
    • It's probably less comparable to KDE or GNOME, but probably more comparable to say XFCE. KDE is a complete desktop with apps and a programming framework with GUI libraries and other stuff. XFCE seems to be more of a simple desktop which you are able to run apps. XFCE comes with it's own file manager, as does E17.

      I've been waiting for E17 to become stable. From what I have read and from seeing parts of E17 in action it's more of the desktop that I'm looking for. I don't need all the bells and whistles
  • 0.17 was not just an improvement, but a really different way of thinking enlightenment, something more near to KDE or Gnome than to WMaker or Ice... sad to see that development is slowing down...
    • Last time I checked out e17 trying to contribute meant:

      - Pulling stuff from cvs SPLIT and HEAD branches (both
      had working and broken pieces)
      - Finding some document describing the correct order to
      build two dozen libs/apps; there was no such up-to-date
      document on enlightenment.org
      - Build failures, this month here, next month there
      - Website says: "Don't complain it doesn't build. It does."

      Nothing kills motivation like being told the problems you
      are seeing and might even feel inclined to tackle don't
      e
      • I do agree that E17 development has seemed pretty "if you're not one of the core developers, you shouldn't be touching it," but it's moving away from that. The post linked to in this story is a good example of an increasing openness and attention to at least some documentation. A lot of documentation has appeared on enlightenment.org in the past month or two as well; the relatively new build notes [enlightenment.org] are particularly useful when trying to build from CVS.
    • It doesn't take too much to see that E17 is deadly slow. But itakes something to understand why it is slow.

      Typically in Open Software, the amount and quality of coders in the project is usually proportional to the task attraction, architecture design, exisiting code implementation of it and the existing team working on it. Therefore, one or more those factors are wrong with Enlightenment.

      The task is not less attractive now than it was in days of E16. The design has been even more improved. People are ex

  • stick to e16 for a wm, but e17 has nice stuff (Score:5, Informative)

    by Trepidity ( 597 ) <delirium-slashdot@@@hackish...org> on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @05:45AM (#5596888)
    If you want a working window manager, stick to e16; e17 isn't really being actively worked on as a window manager yet, and doesn't have many features. The work is on a lot of useful backend stuff; the joke is that once the backend is done, the window manager will be five lines of code. Take a look at the components [enlightenment.org] though. Many of them are in a very good state, and the E folk are to be commended for their excellent modular development -- many of these components are already being used by other projects (imlib2 in particular), and many of the others either are or soon will be in shape to be used in other projects too.

    Of course perhaps I'm a bit biased, since E16 is still my favorite window manager (a better way to view/edit remembered window/app attributes being my only real feature request), but I think the E17 team is doing a good job contributing to the overall Free Software codebase. And though it's a bit frustrating that E17 is taking so long, reading through the components is impressive -- everything is being engineered carefully. While many window managers hack things in, everything in E -- from the theming engine to the window decorations -- is carefully designed with a clean interface. Should be impressive when it's done.

    My only main worry about E17 is that it seems to be going desktop-environment-ish, a la GNOME/KDE, which I really can't stand. Hopefully we'll be able to turn all that off.

    • Re:stick to e16 for a wm, but e17 has nice stuff (Score:5, Informative)

      by koekepeer ( 197127 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @06:24AM (#5596971)
      [quote]
      My only main worry about E17 is that it seems to be going desktop-environment-ish, a la GNOME/KDE, which I really can't stand. Hopefully we'll be able to turn all that off.
      [/quote]

      it's going to be a desktop shell. they'll have an icon bar, a filemanager, and a desktop, epplets. now that would be rather okay, because i like their original ideas, and my guess is that it will outperform gnome/kde in that area. probably speedwise, and certainly interface-wise.

      i think E16 is the most easy to handle WM i have used (and i've used a lot of them). this is all a matter of personal preferences of course. the deal is, E has a tradition of being able to change those preferences to suit your needs. i think this is one of E's bigest merits (customisability)

      this will probably translate into the ability to switch off everything if you want to in E17. and you'll just have a WM again :)
      • Disclaimer, I have not yet learned how to program in C/C++ ( I am a biochemist and Java suits the needs of a one-man show much better )

         But I am thinking of learning C and the E stuff like Evas ( and the EProg extension ) are designed to make life really easy, so you can have a window with an image in it in less than a minute. I assume that I could still use the GTK+ tool kit for GUI work, but have the faster E stuff for the connections to X. So, in terms of it being a DE, I am excited and hope that the
      • This is a good point. I don't think the Enlightenment developers are aiming to create an environment. Instead, I think they're designing tools which will make it very easy to design a desktop environment around E. So if someone wanted to take it and add all the junk associated with a desktop env., then they'll be able to do so very easily.

        I think E itself will remain a WM, with some very nice tools and features.

        E16.5 is my favourite WM. I really, really dig its pager. But my biggest E16.5 gripe is wi
    • the E folk are to be commended for their excellent modular development -- many of these components are already being used by other projects (imlib2 in particular), and many of the others either are or soon will be in shape to be used in other projects too.

      Yes and no. Here's a quote from the article:

      ecore: Currently it has basic IPC wrapping, X wrapping, Evas wrapping, job handling ...

      I think it's kind of a bad sign when you have to write a wrapper for your own library to be released with your library
    • I loved e16, and it was my favorite WM for quite some time. My only big gripe with e16 is the fact that window cycling and focus handling sucks. I need window cycling such as in Metacity, ie. more graphical clues as to what's going on, otherwise I just have trouble with it. And the focus switching in e16 is just terrible, eg. when you close a dialog window the focus doesn't properly get switched back to the parent window.

      Other than that, e16 is pretty damn good. I _love_ the icon box. That is the bes

      • graphical clues for window cycling: like the color of the titlebar changes when it's active? like the alt-tab that switches between windows while showing which window is active?

        as for the focus-switching: sloppy focus is default. i couldn't live without it anymore, but hey...

        you can change focus policies though, and the keys to switch between windows, and..., and...

        i recommend you read documentation, and try out some features, before you start complaining... really, there's not a lot you cannot do with e

        • now, have you seen efm? (not maintained since they focus on E17 now). g(*&^mn, that was a fine filemanager. no clutter, a sort of mixture between command-line and graphical shell, simple yet effective windows (a-la mac-os classic), really gorgeous.

          "evidence" will basically be that -- efm features (icon-view, "typebuffer" micro-shell, with a browser-view a la Mac OS X thrown in for good measure), but on top of the new e17 libs. A working (if unoptimized) version can be pulled from CVS (cvs -z3 -d:pser

      • I never understood the iconbox even though I have used it. What is it? its a place where minimised windows sit?

        if so then you have a kind of graphical taskbar but one that only lists minimised applications so you cant find a non minimised window to bring it to the foreground.

        It just seems like a poor taskbar to me.

  • I'll be retired.... (Score:3, Informative)

    by redcliffe ( 466773 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @05:46AM (#5596892) Homepage Journal
    ...by the time that's released!

    (I've only just finished school)

  • Enlightenment (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I don't know about many of the rest of you, but I've been using E16 nearly nonstop (give or take a few weeks of experimentation with each of several other wms) since its original release four or so years ago.

    Its age causes the odd compatability problems (esp with nautilus), but there certainly aren't things which cannot be worked around...

    It does entertain me that nearly every user who was introduced to linux after RedHat switched their default wm to be sawhorse/sawfish has never even heard of what is sti
    • Its age causes the odd compatability problems (esp with nautilus)

      What type of problems have you had? I use nautilus and Enlightenment together and have not had any problems. Of course, I don't let nautilus manage the desktop (why would I want that when I am using Enlightenment?)
    • According to discussions on the e-devel mailing list, fixes to support the newer window manager hints that Gnome2 and KDE now use are in CVS and will soon be in a new snapshot release - 0.16.6?

      I'm waiting for them to iron this out and test it before I dive in. Enlightenment, Evolution and XEmacs are my work environment and I don't like messing about with that too much. All on top of Solaris/SPARC, if that matters to anyone.
    • It does entertain me that nearly every user who was introduced to linux after RedHat switched their default wm to be sawhorse/sawfish has never even heard of what is still arguably the best looking thing out there. (I've not touched KDE3.1 yet, but seeing as I have stylistic issues with most of the KDE 'way', my subjective opinion would probably remain the same even with such an experience.)

      Ironic, I used to run E or IceWM, then switched to Sawfish. I recently switched to KDE, and am loving every minute

  • Linux GUIs are worsening (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I know many of you won't like this post as most of you adore the Mac OS X interface, but I believe there is jus too much work being done to make Linux GUIs look nice. Intentions may be good but they don't look nice at all. They TRY to look nice but they fail... and miserably too. PLEASE lets focus on functionality and not so much on looks like those damn rounded windows and buttons. Christs sake its a functionality contest not a beauty contest.

    The Windows 95 interface is a great example in my opinion of a
    • I must admit, I got hooked on enlightenment when I saw screenshots of the "hand of god" theme.

      I checked out fluxbox about a year ago and I stopped using enlightenment. Now while I'm still looking forward to checking out e17 once the wm is mostly finished, I agree that there's a point where all the eye candy just looks cheap and garish.

      Could be that I'm just getting older, boring, don't have enough time to do window dressing [drbbs.com] or all of the above.

      Either that or the teletubby theme on XP ruined the whole con

      • IAWTP

        Every since enlightenment was abandoned by Redhat as stock option, I have been eternally let down by all other window managers. KDE 3.0 run as extension (kicker) to Blackbox or FluxBox is the only thing that will compare to the days of E.

        RH would do themselves a large favor by backwards compat'ing some of the apps that a few of us have all come to know and love through years of usage. Each new OS that comes from RH has me more cropped at the knees than ever before. And Enlightenment was one of the
    • They _try_ to look good? damn, do you wear ugly-o-matic glasses?! The newest versions of KDE look bloody marvelous, but still i stick with e16.. the reason? the lovely themes (personally i use the mac os Aqua theme), and.. my home pc is a 400mhz which i run as a workstation and server.. so i can't spend CPU power on KDE or Gnome...

    • The Windows 95 interface is a great example in my opinion of a excellent GUI. It's not too fancy but not too plain either.

      I don't agree. I think 95's interface is too plain and harsh to look at. People like to enjoy their experience on a computer. That is why interfaces like in OS X are popular. They look good, and they're fun to use. But I do agree somewhat, in that I like interfaces that are clean with hard edges ... not curves, and solid colors ... not gradiants. Sometimes window decorating goes

  • Argh! (Score:3)

    by Tyreth ( 523822 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @05:57AM (#5596917)
    How much longer? Enlightenment was my second window manager, Afterstep being my first. I loved enlightenment, made my system look so smooth.

    I've been waiting for e17 for so long, tried cvs occasionally but it's always got faults (unsurprising) making it not worth the effort. Especially now it's been declared as a glorified "test program" :)

    Evas looks promising though. I've just never found a home since Afterstep/Enlightenment. Ion was very, very desirable but a few applications are irritating. Still I think the pros outweigh the cons.
    • Your first window was twm until you figured out how to configure X... admit it!
      • > Your first window was twm until you figured out how to configure X... admit it!

        mouse, n. The funny shaped thing on my desk that I move around when I wanna type in a different xterm!

        (Actually, no joke - CDE sux0rz, but my Slowaris box has all four ugly-ass desktops covered with xterms and browser windows, so I don't notice how hard it sux0rz :)

  • it lives ? (Score:3, Funny)

    by SpiritC ( 163392 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @05:59AM (#5596920) Homepage
    if i think a project is dead i usually say the next version will be released just after E17

  • maintenance (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    * AC * dusts off the E icon

    <AC> still a few years left in it yet
  • I use e16 on and off and must say that as a Window Manger it is really cool in terms of being able to skin it. I can skip from and Aqua skin to a BeOS skin in a few seconds. Good place to look is at freshmeat [freshmeat.net]

    Rus
    • I can skip from and Aqua skin to a BeOS skin in a few seconds.

      Now that's what I call a practical selling point. Time to call up my manager and show him this post. He'll want to switch everyone over company-wide after reading this one!

      On second thought, maybe I'll just stick with tried-and-true fvwm...
    • Most WMs are skinnable now. So much so that "being able to skin it" is now an expected feature.

  • Worth the wait (Score:3, Interesting)

    by vandan ( 151516 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @06:13AM (#5596950) Homepage
    Yeah it's taken for ever. But you can tell it will be good when it gets here. There has been a long-running thread about a real-time background which represents the weather / time / moon-phase. Sounds _really_ sweet. Eye-candy galore once the libs are finally set in stone.
    I currently switch between E-16 cvs (it's got some work-arounds for rendering issues with later version of X) and E-17 cvs. Every so often I'll try out Gnome / KDE out for a couple of days, but I always end up getting annoyed enough to go back to E. It's just a better interface.
    • There has been a long-running thread about a real-time background which represents the weather / time / moon-phase.

      Umm, last I checked I could do that under any window manager on my box. It's just a matter of having one of the standard X toys like the daylight globe or moon clock (don't recall the executable names offhand) occupy the root window.

  • Woah! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Lolaine ( 262966 )
    I dont remember seeing the E logo in a slashdot posrt... it must be true it hasnt been news about it in ages ...
  • Granted, development was at a snail's pace as interest for it tapered off but E really broke ground on the linux desktop in terms of showing off how different (and excellent) X can look. Sure Afterstep, WindowMaker, etc all co-existed with E, but most if not all of the others were based on TWM. Enlightenment offered total customization, resulting in window manager eyecandy that was really unprecedented at the time. Over the years, how many people have been turned onto Linux from seeing a tricked-out E deskt

    • Re:Enlightenment one of the first... (Score:1, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Over the years, how many people have been turned onto Linux from seeing a tricked-out E desktop? I'd say a lot.

      I definitely agree with you there. One of Linuxs big selling points on the desktop is the configurability of the windowing system. The abstraction of the windowing system and the open nature of Linux have resulted in people experimenting with different types of interface. For a taster, check these out:

      FluxBox [freshmeat.net]
      Ion [freshmeat.net]
      PekWM [freshmeat.net]
      TreeWM [freshmeat.net]
      WindowLab [freshmeat.net]
  • ..will anyone still want it? They'll have to print up an Eprom that fits into my skulljack by then. Should fit right next to my CopTalk skillchip. ;)

  • Wow! I can't wait until Enlightenment gets out of alpha and 1.0 is announced!
  • Not trolling, but... ;-)

    1. Write heavily hacked code that create beautiful thing.
    2. Rewrite it, using
    2.1 a more object-oriented approach
    2.2 a more conventional approach
    3. Improve the code using heavily hacked code.
    4. Goto (2).

    Well, back to the topic - Enlightenment is what attracted me to the graphical world of linux, and well, I really hate them having put off my wet dreams when I was using efm (enlightenment file manager) several years ago. I thought that they will continue with the same codebas

    • Is that such a bad thing?

      If you view it as the hacked version being a prototype and the rewritten version being the product then it is much better than most projects that ship an improved prototype as the final version.
  • If you want to see something cool download evas (gentoo users just emerge evas) and run 'evas_test' ('evas_test_old' is pretty good too I suppose). You have to hand it to Rasterman, he knows how to make delicious eyecandy.
  • Is anyone working on making E16 working with Gnome / GTK 2.x ???

    I used to use Enlightenment all the time, it was my favourite window manager... but it very broken under Gnome2, and since I've moved to RedHat 8.0, I've missed it terribly..

    (btw: I now use KDE 3)
    • Kinda - I run gtk2 and gnome2 apps with E but I don't let gnome take over the desktop, that way I don't have to deal with panels or icons. I load most of the apps I need after xinit and then just flip through desktops to get whatever app I need.
    • yes. there is an 0.16.6 release coming out to address this problem actually. I am hoping to have it put out in the next couple of weeks.
  • ... as half a year ago when I saw them, which means they are either still the same or not up to date.
  • Although I do not use E, I have checked the progress of its development through www.cuddletech.com and their efforts to improve E and port it to Solaris. I actually like the idea of slow, methodical development as opposed to the "let's add every feature under the sun (no pun intended)" effort ending up in a convuluted mess of bad code and incomplete or non working features. My experiences with Gnome and KDE under Solaris attest to the "it's gotta look cool despite the bad code" effort. People complain abo
    • "I actually like the idea of slow, methodical development as opposed to the "let's add every feature under the sun (no pun intended)" effort ending up in a convuluted mess of bad code and incomplete or non working features."

      Actually let's not confuse one projects lack of resources with another projects wealth of resources. Both Gnome and KDE have become very useful desktops for normal users. E on the other hand in its current state is only appealing to a very small group of users and probably won't be feat

    • the only "feature" I can see that remotely benefits anyone is the ability to have more than four desktops (Gnome 6, CDE 4).

      I'll be picky and point out that you can definately have more than four workspaces with CDE. I'm not sure about an upper limit, but you can have at least nine, since that's what I've got set up on a Solaris workstation. Sun's got documentation [sun.com] to show you how to add more workspaces.

      If your only reason for using Gnome on Solaris is to get more workspaces/desktops, then you reall

  • updated document on website (Score:3, Informative)

    by koekepeer ( 197127 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @07:53AM (#5597132)
    see subject includes some other libs as well

    the link [enlightenment.org]

  • I really wish things would pick up... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Jerk City Troll ( 661616 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @09:23AM (#5597290) Homepage
    Evas is the technology in E17 that can really turn heads. For the uninitiated, it's a display library that abstracts the pixels, handling hardware accelleration and optimization for you. The concept is very similar to Quartz Extreme on OS X (except I don't see any of the functionality of Display PostScript).

    We really need Evas and the rest of E17 to get mature -- it's something that can potentially make Linux desktop technology take off in a big way. Think about an OpenGL accellerated composited windowing system. That would lend itself to all sorts of interesting possibilities for desktops.

    For one, we'd certainly get rid of a lot of the ugly artifacting and flicker that you see with Qt and GTK today (assuming they could somehow be ported). While a lot of that could be fixed with double buffering, you still wouldn't get all the benefits of Evas.

    If you wanna see what I mean, you can go and download only the Evas package and run a small test suite. If you've got an OpenGL accellerated graphics card, you're in for a real treat -- this stuff is incredibly cool.

    Now only if they would finish it!
  • I'll have $10 C&E
  • When I saw the title, I saw "State of the Enron"
  • it is wroth noting that there will be an 0.16.6 release in the coming week or two.

    Mostly just bugfixes, but also includes some stuff from Kim for running with current desktop hints from gnome/kde.

  • I'm planning to run Duke Nukem Forever on my E17 install.

  • major rewrite.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by neurojab ( 15737 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @12:02PM (#5597835)
    This is one of the annoyances of open source... the tendency of developers to undergo major rewrites.

    I've been following Enligtenment for some time, and the most annoying thing about it is that it undergoes a "major rewrite" nearly every major release. The new release always causes your current themes to break, and removes many of the features you were using.

    Major re-writes are something developers like to do, but in the commercial sector their bosses won't let them. Why not? Most of the value of the re-write is in the developer's mind: they see the code, no the final product. There are three kinds of expenses to doing a re-write 1) the cost to actually implement the rewrite and 2) time cost to not market your products in a timely manner ad 3) loss of marketability due to feature loss and increased bug count. Even though it's free, the enlightenment project suffers from these costs.

    Yes, I am a developer, and yes, I like to re-write. I'm just glad for my job's sake that my boss usually won't let me do it :)

  • e16 was just patched to work with current releases of GNOME and KDE, ie, e16.6 understands current hints.

    Lastly, evidence [sourceforge.net] (Screenshot [sourceforge.net]), the experimental e17 file-manager was accidentally left off the list because it resides in its own CVS @ cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/ evidence co evidence

  • Bush gives another State of the Union at The SmokeHammer [thesmokehammer.com].

  • Couple of comments/quick summary (Score:3, Interesting)

    by xcomputer_man ( 513295 ) on Wednesday March 26, 2003 @12:56PM (#5598163) Homepage
    - As Mandrake pointed out, a new patch has just been committed to CVS that will enable E 0.16 to support new KDE/GNOME Window Manager hints. For the uninitiated, this means that it will finally be possible for you to use Enlightenment as your window manager in GNOME 2 or KDE 3 (and get the best of both worlds, if you wish). So expect an 0.16.6 release very soon. :)

    - E17 as present is a moderately functional window manager, with few features but great looks. Expect this present window manager to be eventually nuked pending completion of the underlying libraries, to make way for the real Enlightenment.

    - There are several other libraries and apps that are being worked on, notably ebg, ebits, ecore, ewl (widget library), evidence (file manager, although a fairly separate project presently), entrance (login/display manager) and so on.

    Want to see what E17 looks like? Check out my collection of screenshots here [xcomputerman.com] and here [xcomputerman.com].

    And if you've ever done some sort of GUI programming, you need to check Evas out NOW! :)
  • First off, that page doesn't work anymore:

    "ERROR: Forum not found"

    Second, I have some E17 screenshots up.

    http://fire-eyes1.darktech.org/gal/e17-cvs

    I ask that you not view too many of the full sized versions, which show up if you click the thumnail, then click the result again.
  • If the above link does not work for you, try this one [enlightenment.org].
  • I love E! Always have, always will. I've just got over my last round of excitement for E 17.. Why do you torture me with E 17 news!! WHY WHY WHY!!!
    On a side note, the link in the article does not work for me, I get ERROR, forum not found...
    If you haven't tried E, I highly recommend it.

  • evas - (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gridlock-lkdn ( 652957 )

    It should also be noted that evas is disgustingly easy to code for - i was making simple windows with a couple of buttons (button code writen myself - evas is just the canvas not the widget API) and resizing decently in about 3 hours - that includes the time it took me to learn the API.

    In addition to a really clear and powerful API, evas is also provides heaps of typechecking and other debugging goodness. It picks up 90% of the errors for you, and you can fix them in a thrid (perhaps a quarter) the time i

  • Way back in the day when I finally dumped FVWM, I switched to E13 and it seriously changed the way way I thought of computers and GUI design. At the time it was a huge leap forward. Since that time elements of the E style have crept into several other platforms and UI styles, which is a good thing.

    Over a year ago I was just plain sick and tired of waiting for E17 (don't go off on the 'you should contribute' thing because they won't let you) and decided to check out OSX. I switched within a week. OSX is not
  • Maybe when E17 comes out, Patrick will put it back in Slack so I can get my Eterm back.

    I miss my Eterm... :^(
  • It was when I saw Enlightenment running on FreeBSD 3.0 that I was hooked on open-source software. The idea of a bunch of nerds cranking out free editors and compilers was fine in and of itself, but the artistry and raw sex appeal Mandrake (Geoff Harrison) and Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) achieved was completely unexpected. It was then that I knew I had to have this stuff. I still insist there is a place for art and personal expression in computer design, a position that so far only Apple appears to apprecia

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