Xerox Alto Computer 30th Anniversary 194
aheath writes "The New York Times has a story about the 30th anniversary of the Xerox Alto computer: How Digital Pioneers Put the 'Personal' in PC's. According to the PARC Factsheet "The Alto Computer (1973/1980)
included the Graphical User Interface (GUI), WYSIWYG editing, bit-mapped display, overlapping windows, and the first commercial use of the mouse." The concepts prototyped in the Xerox Alto contributed to the development of the Xerox Star, the Apple Lisa, the Apple Macintosh and Microsoft Windows 1.0."
*cork pop* (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:*cork pop*-fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is. (Score:1, Informative)
Re:*cork pop* (Score:3, Informative)
or one they refined to usefulness anyhows. If I weren't so lazy I'd go look it up somewhere
Re:*cork pop* (Score:5, Insightful)
The Alto was the first computer that met that design goal.
That same year, Xerox came out with the first laser printer and an ethernet network that connected the printer and workstations. The original network ran at 3Mbps.
See PARC's History page [xerox.com]
Re:*cork pop* (Score:2, Interesting)
The 3M challenge asked for a network of distributed workstations, each of which should be able to process 1MIPs, hold 1MB of RAM, and displa
I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:1)
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:4, Informative)
Actually I remember using Geos on my c64 around 85/86, and unlike Windows 1.0, there were a few decent productivity apps for it. M$ isn't the only company guilty of stealing ideas, it's just they're the only ones to consistently make bad implementations of what they stole .
Did you know the Lisa could also run UNIX?
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2, Informative)
Steve Wozniac wrote: Steve Jobs made the case to Xerox PARC execs directly that they had great technology but that Apple knew how to make it affordable enough to change the world. This was very open. In the end, Xerox got a large block of Apple stock for sharing the technology. That's not stealing outright.
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:1)
It's like if you had a shitty G.I. Joe missing an arm, a guy buys it from you for $10,000 and then fixes it up to near-mint and eBays it for $100,0
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, Apple had been planning the Lisa over a year before Job's visit, bit-mapped screen and mouse included. The Apple people mainly wanted to look at Smalltalk (too bad Jobs didn't "steal" that). They weren't particularly impressed with the laser printer or ethernet (Jobs was supposed to have hated networks with a passion).
The quote above was probably largely motivated by the (realized) fear that the microcomputer manufacturers would bastardize the idea of personal computing (the general view seems to have been that they were bright ignoramuses who completely ignored what the rest of the computer community was doing).
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2, Insightful)
For many reasons, Xerox was never going to capitalize on the
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2)
They made dos toolkits for developers and it was a pretty gui. I had great looking icons and everything on my 16 color cga monitor. It looked alot like the WIndows/Mac version.
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2, Informative)
Windows 1.0 in CGA mode was 600x200 black and white, if you had colors at all it was running in 16-color EGA mode. It also came with Paint, and a very early version of Win 3.1's File Manager, which was the main way to launch apps. And let's not forget Reversi
The Lisa was black and white, not grayscale. And yes, The Lisa 7/7 OS had a brilliant UI, and was a much more robust OS than MacOS would be for years to come. The UNIX variant it ran was Xenix (not sure if Microsof
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2, Informative)
Back in that day, Windows 1.0 pretty much had to be given away. Early Windows apps came bundled with a 'runtime' version of Windows that would be installed as part of the process of installing the App. This in effect made the Windows/App bundle into a temporary run-time Windows environm
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2)
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:1)
I'm guessing that you're referring to the Lisa...if you were, AppleWorks didn't run on the Lisa. I don't doubt that there was a similar productivity suite for the Lisa, but AppleWorks was an Apple II package. It was derived from an earlier Apple III
Re:I'm not too sure that the Windows 1.0 thing (Score:2)
And for some reason...... (Score:4, Funny)
*ducks*
Re:And for some reason...... (Score:1)
It's kind of like LISP. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:And for some reason...... (Score:2)
Re:And for some reason...... (Score:2)
Vi was somewhat influenced by Bravo, an editor that was developed on the Alto, according to this interview with Bill Joy [pdx.edu]:
Troll ! (Score:5, Funny)
vi is simple, powerfull and easy to use.
oo
vi is simple, powerfull and easy to use.
q:q
Re:Troll ! (Score:1)
Re:And for some reason...... (Score:3, Informative)
It has improved greatly. I only use
Re:And for some reason...... (Score:3, Informative)
It's just nuts to use anything else. Bring up many editors in a remote shell and you just go to a blankscreen (the editor used
Windows 1.0 (Score:4, Funny)
Dealers of Lightening (Score:5, Informative)
The section I found most interesting was the political battles over purchasing a research computer. After selecting a computer that was best suited for the job, they didn't get to buy it, and ended up building their own. A great story about how the pure research and deep thinkers mixed both worked together and battled against the engineers and the suits.
Non-registration URL. (Score:3, Informative)
Just think... (Score:5, Funny)
If you had a 1024 node cluster of these things you could load windowsXP in just under 3 months.
Re:Just think... (Score:2)
Re:Just think... (Score:2)
I didn't have the patience to let it boot up all the way, though. I waited and waited and waited. Then I heard the floppy drive start going *bip* *bip* *bip* as it started the POST sequence of s-l-o-w-l-y stepping the head up to the top track and back to home. I said 'forget this' and put the original (12 MHz!) crystal back in.
Re:Just think... (Score:2)
Nah- you don't have to be that old to remember those. Especially double-digit MHzes- plenty of 16 year olders grew up with original Pentium machines.
Now, you gotta feel old if you recall the days where people actually measured clock speed in KHz, not MHz. I mean, I'm only 22 and used to use 1 MHz machines all the time when I was a kid.
Alternatives to the GUI (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm willing to accept it was a pretty good jump of thought to create the gui on a bitmapped display after so much text-only based human-computer-interaction, but are there other ways of interfacing? perhaps other GUI ideas that we don't see just because they weren't first, and hence now the most developed?
Methaphors, Forms (Score:5, Interesting)
Not quite offtopic: back in the late 70s, some workstation designers decided they could do an intuitive user interface without waiting for bitmap displays to become affordable. The result was the form-based user interface of the CTOS operating system [byte.com], which ran on special proprietary hardware [cs.uu.nl]. Of course, like most proprietary systems, it was driven from the marketplace by IBM compatibles. Too bad, really.
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:4, Informative)
A whole bunch, actually.
The interesting part is, modern GUIs integrate both the "book" and "channel" metaphors alongside the "papers on a desk" metaphor. I certainly know that I don't use overlapping windows for anything but file-sorting; every program I run (exempting IM and Winamp) is maximized, and I switch between the tasks with the fundamental windows keyboard command, Alt+tab.)
Personally, I'm eagerly awaiting a better file system metaphor. Toss the "files and folders" lie, skip the "everything is a file" concept, and hop right into "Hard Drive is a database."
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:1)
as for the paging system I would prefer a right click menu or a pop up menu on the tool bar to tab between programs.
I mean I guess the task bar is close but that interface sucks...when will we get a mini thumbnail in the tab?
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:1)
IIRC, OS X has this. You can get ObjectDock [stardock.com] to have the same effect in windows.
As for BeOS--I keep meaning to give it a try, but I'm not sure it'll be worth it.
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:2)
Never heard of XP2FS. There's the open-source flight simulator, but I don't suppose that's what you meant.
Paging system? Whatever. Let's not trot out the tired old "it works best for me, so anyb
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:2)
"every program I run is maximized" (Score:2)
Lucky you, stupid web designers build their sites for you!
Re:"every program I run is maximized" (Score:2)
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:2)
Also, "channel metaphor" would seem to describe the virtual consoles on most Linux and a lot of Unix systems. I know text-mode diehards who insist that virtual consoles are more practical than any GUI.
One of the big design mistakes in early Windows was not making the book metaphor (I prefer to think of it as tabs that access specific windows in an app) a basic feature of the GUI. Instead, it provides tha
Re:Methaphors, Forms (Score:2, Interesting)
Jargon file (Score:5, Funny)
It says
Sadly, the prophets at PARC were without honor in their own company, so much so that it became a standard joke to describe PARC as a place that specialized in developing brilliant ideas for everyone else.
Windows 1.0 looks like "popdos" (Score:2)
Re:Windows 1.0 looks like "popdos" (Score:2)
scripsit cyber_rigger:
Star Division? Or Germany as a country?
Re:Windows 1.0 looks like "popdos" (Score:2)
I believe both came from Star Division.
A little better picture. . . (Score:5, Informative)
Can be found here [digibarn.com] -- odd little note, the original CPU is on casters, so I suppose it ranks as the first portable too.
Its blazing computational stats:
BCPL: 5-10 uSec for a simple expression
Nova Asm: 1-2uSec / instruction
Microcode: 170 nSec / micro instruction
Can be found with a lot of other cool information on its original programming language and some software on this very cool page [spies.com] by an Alto collector.
Neat machine. I think I want one now.
-----
Great milestone! (Score:2, Informative)
Some screenshots [zimmers.net]
And, let's not forget a TRUE genius and pioneer, Doug Englebart [ibiblio.org]. He predated the Alto. This guy is what engineering and technology is all about. Not the bunch of clueless kids (and women!) that are sucked into the indoctrination of universities these days....
Ah, my kingdom for a time machine to travel back to the 1960s. Men were men, electrical engineers actually liked electronics way before they went to school and there was no fooling around!
Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstations (Score:2)
SoupIsGood Food
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:2)
Thank god KDE and Gnome came around. Its amazing that until the turn of the century unix users had 1970's gui's.
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:1)
Looks aren't everything, you know.
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:1)
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:1)
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:2)
With due respect, this is gibberish.
30-pin RAM came first. It was 8 bits wide (9 with parity) so you needed four to make a full bank for a 386/486.
72-pin came later. It filled a 386/486 bank with 32 bits (36 with parity)
Some 486s took only 30-pin. Some only took 72-pin. Some took both. Interestingly, there may even be 286 and 386 systems tha
Re:Alto: ancestor to both GUI and Unix Workstation (Score:2)
Windowmaker is my favorite. I just really love the dock style of GUI. I even use it on my more powerful Athlon.
Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home 4? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:1)
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
On the other hand, it's much easier to find a
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
As for Alto's being rarer than an Apple I, that would mean fewer than 150. I can't think of any computer system that would be rarer, off the top of my head. Shame how corporate disposal policies are killing all sorts of historical computers.
Software is always the bitch though, isn't it? An acquaintance of mine has a Cray supercomputer, I think it's going on 2 years now...
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
But to think that 2500 (to 4500?) Alto's might have been pared down to fewer than 100 is sad indeed.
Note: The Xerox Alto is distinct and different from an "Altos" (name of the company) anything.
Out of the 1800 Beboxen ever built, wonder how many surive?
Re:Anyone have a Star/Alto they want 2 find a home (Score:2)
Yes, I do want one. I wouldn't butcher it and see if I could put a Athlon motherboard in it, or any of the other bullshit you see people doing with treasures like this. I'm willing to do the research to restore it, if it's not in working condition. And if it can be networked to a modern computer, I will do so... maybe even letting some respectul individu
pedigree (Score:3, Interesting)
I believe the pedigree should read: "the Xerox Alto and Star pioneered the GUI and mouse navigation in 1980 and 1981. these elements of the operating system while brought to the business mainstream by the Apple Lisa in 1982 (one year behind schedule), were brought to the common PC user in 1984 with the Macintosh."
Including Windows 1.0 in this company is a joke as Windows 1.0 was nothing more than a shell and not a true OS. In fact, it could be argued that Windows was a shell with DOS being the real OS up until Windows 98.
Re:pedigree (Score:1)
Re:pedigree (Score:1)
I wouldn't say that MacOS was really an 'os' anymore than the Windows 1.0 shell running on top of MS-DOS.
Also, I don't get it why they don't list the GEM desktop or GeoWorks. Those were early and fairly popular GUI environments too. Certainly more popular in their time than Windows 1.0.
Re:pedigree (Score:2)
Oh? And why not? I would be interested in what your definition of an OS is. It is true that the Classic MacOS (MacOS through System 9.2.2) had some serious problems in terms of its architecture compared with other operating systems (UNIX based), but it most certainly WAS an operating system inclusive of its GUI which was not simply a shell running on top of the OS.
Re:pedigree (Score:3, Interesting)
What difference does it make if it's a shell running on top of an OS, or an OS that has the shell embedded in it. Either one is an OS, and MacOS (before they gave up and just bought NextStep, the same way Microsoft bought the first version of MS-DOS, from an
Re:pedigree (Score:2, Informative)
Or the reverse could be argued. Lots of people here who are bigtime Linux/Unix advocates have made the case that one of the big problems with Windows NT is that the GUI is built in, whereas with Linux/Unix the GUI is seperate and not even necessary to the functionality of the whole. When Microsoft went from NT 3.51 to NT 4.0 one of the bad thing
Re:pedigree (Score:2)
I also, am one of them.
have made the case that one of the big problems with Windows NT is that the GUI is built in, whereas with Linux/Unix the GUI is seperate and not even necessary to the functionality of the whole. When Microsoft went from NT 3.51 to NT 4.0 one of the bad things they did was integrate the Graphics into the NT kernel, which reduced reliability considerably, and sabatogued the microkernel design.
This is one of the nice things
Re:pedigree (Score:1)
?
Don't you mean XP/NT (depending on when you move "the OS" away from 9x.) or Win95?
All that Win98 did over 95 was IE integration and some small tweaks. DOS was still there, still built-in--and still in a vital part of the OS through ME.
In Win95 MS bundled DOS closer to Windows, such that DOS 7
Re:pedigree (Score:2)
Yes, indeed. You are most certainly correct. What I intended to say was that Win98 was the last of the Windows based systems running on DOS, but my statement apparently was badly constructed.
Little known facts (Score:5, Interesting)
The other totally fun thing about the Altos was they supported network games. My favorite was Mazewars. This was almost certainly the first multiplayer FPS game in the world. Everyone played an identical looking eyeball. You zipped around a maze and shot each other (with withering glares, I guess). But you really needed to be good on the chord keyset to win.
They did NOT have overlapping windows! (Score:2, Informative)
Celebrating what Xerox Gave Away... (Score:2)
Thanks Xerox.
Re:Celebrating what Xerox Gave Away... (Score:1)
Re:Celebrating what Xerox Gave Away... (Score:2)
IBM requested a GUI OS and then allowed MS to use the concepts behind it, the same as they had allowed them to market MS-DOS, as compared to IBM's PC-DOS. And Windows 2.0 was the first to properly implement the GUI idea conceived for OS/2.
Re:Celebrating what Xerox Gave Away... (Score:2)
Consent Decree (Score:2)
The public domain has to be taken by force, it always has been and always will be. There is no room for charity in monoploly plans.
Re:Celebrating what Xerox Gave Away... (Score:2)
Your M$ bashing is virtuous, but when it leaks over onto other companies, you might want to be more careful.
All credit to Xerox (Score:1)
It was like the Vikings went to America and did nothing with the knowledge and it had to wait until Columbus went back to America (having read the Viking accounts) and then told everyone about it.
Full kudos to Xerox for ingenuity but not much else.
Debunking the "Apple Ripped Off Xerox PARC" Myth (Score:5, Informative)
Apple borrowed a number of elements from PARC research, but not all of them, and it did pay for the ones it did borrow. More details at: http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html [mackido.com].
Re:Debunking the "Apple Ripped Off Xerox PARC" Myt (Score:2, Funny)
But this proves indeed that they were ripped off.
the '73 alto had a GUI? (Score:1)
WYSIWYG (Score:5, Funny)
1) A very polite policeman at the door.
2) No electricity.
3) No management people.
4) Confused employees.
5) An envelope at my desk with a check for 1/2 of my pay.
6) On the memo line, it read: "WYSIWYG"
7...
8) no profit.
For more info (Score:2)
Ciryon
Apple Lisa Interface.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Altogether: a Xerox Alto simulator (Score:3, Interesting)
Because almost all of the interesting Alto software used the writable control store, it is important to simulate the Alto at the microcode level. The Alto used horizontal microcode, so several operations are done in each clock cycle, which IIRC was 170 ns. On an Athlon XP 1900+, the CPU simulation runs at about 1/4 real time. In order to obtain better performance, it will be necessary to do quite a bit of optimization, possibly including binary translation of the microcode into native host code.
There's no packaged release of the Altogether code, but it can be checked out from CVS.
the people of PARC (Score:2, Informative)
Irrelevant trivi
Re:the people of PARC (Score:2)
So who were the other 24? C'mon, dish.
Ahead of their time.... (Score:3, Interesting)
He said that he was so blown away by just one of the techs (the GUI, of course), that the potential of the other two were completely lost on him.
It boggles my mind how far ahead of the curve the PARC guys were. Imagine going to a demo session and having the demonstrators show you a working quantum computing laptop running from a fuel-cell with a virtual holographic 360-degree 3-D display. It must have been something like that... where each advancement is so groundbreaking that you can only absorb one of them in a sitting.
*sigh* Apple didn't "Steal" the GUI from Xerox (Score:5, Informative)
The early Lisa and Macintosh machines were less powerful than the last generation Xerox machines, but had better software support. The Xerox had several impressive demos, but most were incomplete. By 1985, the Macintosh had Mac Write, Mac Paint, Mac Draw, Hypercard, several Postscript-based illustration and DTP applications, and the very first GUI versions of MS Word and Excel.
Search the web for Apple/Xerox myths, you'll find the real story from several credible sources, including Steve Wozniak (Apple co-founder) who was still with the company at the time. www.woz.org may be a good start.
If it makes you feel any better, you may want to think of Apple as getting a taste of their own medicine with the Newton project. Like Xerox that pioneered a new area of computing, but allowed other companies to mass market smaller/cheaper models, Apple left the PDA market just as it began to take off. The Newtons were impressive technology demos, but were large and expensive and still had some quirks. Two years after Apple discontinued the Newton, everyone had a Palm.
Markov != history (Score:3, Insightful)
Given the previous mis-reporting (and I was around in the early 70s) I take issue with any one person or organization getting 'credit' for personal computing. It was time, in the industry, to do this. Already in tbe back of Scienctific American were half a dozen companies advertisting mini-computers that were targeted to a single researcher. I was on PDP 8s and soon thereafter PDP 11s which were mostly being used to support single people.
Allen Kay shold get credit for bringing to prominance the windowing environments that most of us now use.
-- Multics
New book on PARC's strategy and offspring (Score:2, Informative)
It describes what PARC was looking for in its research, the many spin-offs that we've heard of, and proposes a post-PARC theory for tech R&D funding / thinking with research from Intel, IBM, Lucent and others. I've posted a full review at http://www.mironov.com/pb/mar03.html
Strongly recommended!
Re:Happy Birthday! (Score:3, Insightful)
Lee
The Alto (and Star) kinda sucked (Score:2)
The Alto and Star had a number of dubious design decisions that led to the incredibly large boot time and low reliability. One was that the filesystem implemented disk allocation via a simple linked list; no file allocation t
Re:Apple Lisa (MacXL) booted up nearly10 times fas (Score:2)
When I was in kindergarten, my father bought a Lisa for his office. I'm now married with kids, so that gives you some idea of how long ago this was. I remember playing with it when I was a kid.
To this day, my father claims the Lisa was the best machine he has ever used. All the applications were completely integrated in a way that DOS and even Windows apps weren't for many years. You could draw up a diagram in the paint program and paste it into the word processing program easily. It was so solid that, AFA
How often do you boot, anyway? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, that depends on how often you boot it, doesn't it? At the time, Lisp machines took a long time to boot, but they stayed up for months at a time. Altos in use as file servers had similar uptimes. You must have had to boot your Lisa a lot if their time to boot was a big concern.
One reason Altos and their kin took a long time to boot was the multiple layers in the OS - boot loaders that load micro