IE6 SP1 Will Be Last Standalone Version 723
mokiejovis writes "Program manager Brian Countryman stated that "as part of the OS, IE will continue to evolve, but there will be no future standalone installations. IE6 SP1 is the final standalone installation." See the Microsoft TechNet article." Several of the people submitting this story have come up with elaborate theories about why: killing competition, etc. etc. I think the truth is just that Microsoft intends to integrate DRM very tightly with their OS and browser, and they're aren't going to try to backport that to, say, Win98, so they just aren't going to release new versions of their browser for old, DRM-less operating systems. In the future server-side browser detection may be more about detecting whether the browser supports the DRM your "web service" uses than what version of Javascript or CSS the browser supports.
Browser detection (Score:5, Interesting)
Browser detection has always been about identifying what capabilities the browser supports, or what bugs need to be worked around. Otherwise you wind up with sites that don't work in some browsers, and everybody bitches at you for not supporting them. The key is to not redirect to a page recommending that the user download IE or Netscape, since that really pisses people off.
I don't plan on producing DRM-protected content, so I don't plan on detecting browser support for it.
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Interesting)
You are missing the point.
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Funny)
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer!
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Insightful)
As opposed to developing a windows application where you have to work around windows versions, service packs and library versions installed? For example, a client requirement was to make an applications title bar flash when a query was completed. I had to write code to support Win9x,WinME+NT4 and Win2K+XP.
It's one company with one product, but many versions you have to code against. So it's sure as hell not moot.
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Interesting)
But think about the larger consequences here. Think about sitesyouwont be able to print.. or copy text out of or look at the source for.
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope. Micrsoft's DRM plans are truely midboggling. That's why you're going to have to buy new "palladium enhanced" hardware. With the new DRM the only way you ever "see the data" is on the screen. If you're lucky you can photograph it.
load some future drm-enabled webpage in winbloze on home network with linux box running ethereal, follow tcp stream, cut/paste code into file and view in mozilla, an open source drm-free environment.
Nope. You can copy the TCP stream, but it's all encrypted. Paste it into Mozilla or any other program and you have nothing but garbage.
It's some read hard-core shit. You hack into the monitor cable to grab the video and you find that's encrypted too. The video gets decrypted inside the monitor itself.
Hell, you hack into the keyboard cable and that's fucking encrypted too. Are you starting to get the picture? They have gone off the fucking deep end. The entire machine is one big fat lock.
You load up a program to snoop the raw data in ram and you find the ram is divided up into seperate vaults. There's no such thing as flat memory.
If you patch any of the system files all the DRM systems lock out. Considering that it's one big fat DRM machine I'm not even sure it'll even boot. If it does boot you won't be able to do much more than run Minesweeper, solitare, and notepad if you're lucky.
The machine will also only fully function while you are actively conected to the internet. Some of the functions periodically ping a cryptographicly authenticated time server. If your net connection goes down, or it doesn't get an authenticated response for any reason any time-relevant DRM stuff immediately locks out. That lock up can include programs, audio/video files, application data, even freaking e-mail. But don't worry, you can still play minesweeper while you wait for your net connection to come back up.
Microsft wants DRM to be invisible and ubiqutous throughout the system. People are suposed to take it for granted that everying is DRM'd. DRM content won't have an flashing DRM labels on it. You'll just find that all sorts of features like SAVE AS are missing. And it's not just that the feature is missing from the program. The machine is physically incapable of copying the file. How's that for nutz?
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Re:Browser detection (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Browser detection (Score:5, Informative)
So, yes, real places still give the 'download or die' messages.
Re:Browser detection (Score:4, Informative)
I recently graduated from Augusta State, and I know the issue has been pointed out to the people responsible for the service. They have taken an "it works well enough stand", and they would rather block access to the service completely rather than allow a student to experience a technical glitch caused by a browser that doesn't like some of their code (a paraphrasing of the response I received after complaining). Several members of the faculty have pointed it out, but they seem unwilling to update the browser detection code. The biggest problem is that it looks for certain browsers to allow access rather than to just block browsers with known problems.
Of course, they were still using Netscape 4.6 when I left this past summer, and Pipeline works with that...
Re:A question about that... (Score:5, Informative)
I was baffled by this with Capital One's banking site. I finally realized they were using JavaScript to detect the browser, which is totally independant of the UA string. No browser I am aware of allows changing what JavaScript reports.
JS browser detection is used frequently, but mostly to determine what JS code needs to be used. In some cases, though, the JS then redirects to the appropriate URL (the real site, or the "Upgrade Now" page).
Re:A question about that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Then, even if you do have "clever people" circumventing your access controls, you can still keep industry from adopting the circumventions. (Individuals might not care about the legality of their actions, but nobody is going to write a business plan around an obvious DMCA violation).
Repeal the DMCA (at the ballot box or at the point of a gun, I don't care how you do it), or live with its consequences.
Re:A question about that... (Score:5, Informative)
Download mozilla sources, look in:
dom/src/base/nsGlobalWindow.cpp
~ line 5830 you'll find:
aAppName.Assign(NS_LITERAL_STRING("Netscape"));
Change it to whatever you want -or- for a less permanent solution, make it read from a file. Recompile.
Already partly discussed here... (Score:5, Informative)
No more bugs in IE! Yea! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a pretty funny statement. The service packs are bug releases, hence they contain required changes that were not originally planned. How can Microsoft claim this is the last one that will be needed? Does this mean Microsoft will just abandon all of their users still running older versions of Windows?
I suggest this is just laying the groundwork for FUD to force users to pay Microsoft to "upgrade" their OS in order to replace the latest IE security vulnerability with a whole new set of problems, vulnerabilities, incompatibilities and restrictions.
Re:No more bugs in IE! Yea! (Score:5, Informative)
Yes. They already have for windows 95. Windows 98 isn't far down the road, as is ME.
Re:No more bugs in IE! Yea! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No more bugs in IE! Yea! (Score:5, Informative)
And yes, they will abandon older versions of Windows. Do they still support Windows 3.1?
Re:No more bugs in IE! Yea! (Score:5, Funny)
Just my personal bias, that.
Thanks michael (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't remember the role of the editor including giving personal opinions over and above those stated in linked articles. Why don't editors submit the story with a summary of other people's reasons, then post their own comment?
I do agree with Michael though, it seems fairly pluasible. All the same, it obviously has a competition-killing aspect to it, since Microsoft will tightly control their DRM technology, meaning that DRM-only web sites will probably be IE only, or at the very best IE plus other browsers whose licenses allow embedded proprietary code.
Re:Thanks michael (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thanks michael (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember: in a newspaper, the editorial is where the editor gives his personal opinion.
Re:Thanks michael (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Thanks michael (Score:4, Informative)
The primary duty of editors is the selection and placement of content. There might be an editorial page where an editor can give him or herself the role of columnist extraordinaire, but it's not germaine to the duties as editor.
Slashdot is primarily a discussion forum with links to news stories of interest, with a few choice words to help start the discussion. In this context an overt bias is expected and actually helps move things along.
Re:Of Editorials and Editors (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Of Editorials and Editors (Score:3, Insightful)
It's good to know that the "Everyone else is doing it, so should we!" mentality is alive and well.
Funny, for a while there I thought slashdot was trying to be better than just another news site.
Re:Of Editorials and Editors (Score:5, Interesting)
SCO is a big thing as well which gets hits, so even when there is no real news about it, we get "today's SCO news" posts.
It's getting harder and harder to believe the editors are genuine in their mantra that they simply post what interests them. Being corporate-owned, there are other motives at play in the selection of articles, the headline used, and the summary chosen or written.
On the net, popularity kills (Score:5, Insightful)
Basically, the promise of the net is everyone's a publisher, and can make something kewl, and show it to everyone.
The problem is if they do a good job of it, they get popular. Bandwidth bills go up. They can no longer afford the site, because banner ads don't get you shit. Unless you're a lowest common denominator genius like stile [stileproject.com] (but there's only one stile).
So, they either die, get bailed out by a benevolent donor, or get bought by someone who cares about all the page hits.
So slashdot purely existing as a "great tech news site" was not a long term option. Because being great means being attracting attention, and attraction attention costs YOU money on the net, not your consumers. This inversion is not necessarily the panacea it was thought to be 10 years ago.
Personally, I'm quite content to go on loving to hate slashdot for the forseeable future. Gives us gov't workers something to bitch about at coffee break.
Re:Thanks michael (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the most disturbing part of this whole story for me. Disturbing because this fits so well with what has been MS SOP for years now. I guess now that the fear of the GOV and litigation have been removed it is time to take monopolizing to the next level.
---
Of course I'm paranoid it's crazy not to be!
Re:Thanks michael... AGAIN (Score:4, Informative)
This is Telex4's point, in this comment's grandparent. "Microsoft will tightly control their DRM technology..." should not be the most disturbing part of the this whole story, because it isn't part of this whole story; it's the editor's OPINION.
This thread is having a petty argument over whether or not slashdot is a news site and whether or not slashdot's editors are truly editors in the journalistic sense.
1. Slashdot is a news site. They relay news, the same way local newspapers relay Associated Press articles and articles from better papers (NY Times, Washington Post, etc.).
2. Slashdot's editors are editors. Many people read slashdot exclusively, at least for this kind of news, and slashdot's editors are in charge of what stories go through and what their readers are subjected to.
3. Yes, editors do pass subtle opinion within stories in newspapers all the time. There's a difference between what they do and slapping "I think that..." directly after a story. What slashdot editors do DRAMATICALLY changes the articles they post. In this case, it changed a sotry about MS no longer bothering to make new versions of IE work on old Windows installations into a story about the tyrant software villains deftly attacking the open-source world.
Slashdot editors: C'mon, I know it's your site, but just cut it out, eh? I hope you realize how hypocritical you all are when you scold MS/SCO/etc. for spreading FUD.
Justice department (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Justice department (Score:5, Insightful)
You mean lost. Sure, they won in court, but it turned out, they couldn't compete with Microsoft politically.
Microsoft can do whatever it pleases now, it knows the government is a paper tiger.
Re:Justice department (Score:5, Funny)
I guess YOU have never gotten a paper cut. Those things hurt like a bastard!
Re:Justice department (Score:3, Funny)
There is more to the world than the good ol' USA, you know.
Europe, Asia, etc, may have something to say about it.
How about in Europe? (Score:5, Interesting)
On a similar note, wouldn't this make things even worse for Microsoft's with regards to the antitrust case in the EU? If I'm not mistaken, the Media Player bundling is a big deal already?
zMozilla beware!! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Why? Online banking works just fine today. The banks will cater to the lowest common denominator. If even 10% of their users have problems accessing their online banking accounts, the cost of customer service calls will by HUGE. Most features and services are designed to cut down on customer service calls.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Online banking today cuts-out everyone with a browser which doesn't transmit "MSIE" in the user-agent. Yes it sucks. Yes it's the reason I don't use online banking. And yes, it is damned stupid to be requiring a fundamentally insecure browser incapable of securely handling SSH sessions, for banking transactions. But tell that to your ba
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Our previous bank was IE-only, and their online banking was through (insecure) IIS servers.
Banking is a competitive business. If your current bank doesn't support your choice of browser and/or operating system, find one that does.
- Robin
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:4, Informative)
Speak for your own shite bank. I just tried mine, and its online banking seems fine with Mozilla.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:4, Informative)
> The banks will cater to the lowest common denominator. If even 10% of their users have problems accessing their online banking accounts, the cost of customer service calls will by HUGE.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I think there are a significant number of banks out there that currently only support IE. It seems to come up here on Slashdot every once in awhile.
Additionally, the number of support calls might increase, but the duration of the call will likely be short:
Customer: Um, yeah, I'm using Mozilla on <insert your favorite OS here> but I can't access the online banking page.
Support Person: Sorry, you have to use Internet Explorer to access our online banking page
Customer: But I'm running Linux!
Support Person: Sorry, we only support Internet Explorer.
Customer: Curses! I'm going to find a new bank then!
Support Person: Is there anything else I can help you with today?
{dial-tone}
I don't know about y'all, but all the banks I have been with could care less about losing a small fry like me.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Would the Root certificate provider sign this virtual implementation? Almost certanly not.
You could virtualize it at just about any layer. But the whole point of palladium is to ensure the whole thing is running on 'trusted [by the content provider]' hardware.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:4, Informative)
It achieves this using PKI and digital signatures, so a virtual version would need to forge the Palladium device's signature. That means finding the private key, which is a DMCA violation and, more importantly, practically impossible. It's 2048-bit RSA, which would take trillions of years to crack even using the most powerful distributed computing project.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Each passing day, MS brings the world closer to their MS-specific security model. As much as all of us want to avoid having to pay the Microsoft tax when we use technology, if left to their own devices, MS will attempt to erect a virtual toll-booth within as much aspects of technology as possible - be that the internet, PC's, or digital devices.
As developers, hardware specialists, what have you, we need to do our best to adopt, promote, and develop open-source technologies today, to prevent MS front owning what is now public domain tomorrow. "If we don't take action now, we'll settle for nothing later; if we settle for nothing now, we'll settle for nothing later." RATM. It might sound trite, but it applies to what is happening in tech right now.
Re:Mozilla beware!! (Score:5, Funny)
So how exactly has IE evolved in the last 5 years? (Score:5, Insightful)
As far as I can tell, development of IE's features was iced around 5 years ago. Compare and contrast with Opera, Mozilla, Phoenix
Re:So how exactly has IE evolved in the last 5 yea (Score:5, Insightful)
Mozilla is fast, stable, mostly bug-free (and what bugs it has are fairly straightforward to work around) and very standards compliant. The last is important: it means I know what will happen if I write certain code.
Wish I could say the same for IE. Even its bugs have bugs. (Though admittedly it is not as bad as NS 4.)
Re:So how exactly has IE evolved in the last 5 yea (Score:5, Funny)
(opens window to alley) Hey, get out of my trashcan! There's no more sandwiches in there... and let me ask you a question about Mozilla.
Mozilla's evolution (Score:5, Interesting)
--Pat / zippy@cs.brandeis.edu
Re:So how exactly has IE evolved in the last 5 yea (Score:5, Informative)
Opera, Konqueror and Mozilla supports more DOM modules than MSIE 6 SP1.
On MS website, they clam that.
This is not true....According to Microsoft own claims, through the document.implementation.hasFeature() method, Microsoft Internet explorer 6sp1 claims that it do not support DOM Level 1 HTML, but the DOM Level 1 XML returns true on the support question.
But...the node-type constraint, which is defined by the Node interface is not defined my MSIE6 SP1. In other words, Microsoft do not support ANY DOM modules at all.
Oh, so just send in a lot of Mail to M$... You all know that MSIE have full PNG support[2] since MSIE 4.... Thats what they promisted[3].----
Mike Menk
Grimstad,Norway.
[1] http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url= /library/en-us/dndude/html/dude03262001.asp
m l
[2] http://osys.grm.hia.no/html-repguiden/sshoot/
[3] http://www.petitiononline.com/msiepng/petition.ht
No Real Loss (Score:5, Interesting)
By bundling everything in together (probably with a mail client), M$ no longer have to worry about the opposition packages. It also would no surprise me to see integrated OS and Office package bundles/licenses, to keep out the competition.
As for the lack of support for DRM in Win98 being a motivation for no longer producing a standalone version, remember that M$ officially no longer supports Win98 installations.
Re:No Real Loss (Score:5, Insightful)
MS will have to worry about offices making the decision now. As much as integration helps future sales to MS-only shops, it stifles sales to shops that use mixed products. If I owned a business, such integration would make me wary of buying into a complete MS solution for fear of future commitment.
No (Score:3, Insightful)
If MS start bundling something 'good enough' for most with all Windows licenses for £20-30 extra then every shareholder out there would complain very loudly. If they put the price of Windows up significantly, the low end market will leave Windows and move to LindowsOS beacuse it's 'good enough' and would then be a really significant saving.
MS aren't that daft. Office isn't getting bundled with Windows any time soon.
Sweet! (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone got some champagne?
DRM is not a feature - no need for new browsers. (Score:4, Insightful)
When DRM comes around, I'm moving to something else.
Microsoft on its way out (Score:5, Insightful)
I think that Microsoft's grand plan to move the world over to Trusted Computing will end up cornering them into a one-dimensional business plan. Anything outside that market will end up thriving. Robust alternatives like linux and Mac OS will become the dominant platform because they will not corner themselves into discreet markets, but rather, will continue to expand.
If this is the last stand-alone version of IE they are betting that their operating system and plan is the *only* operating system and plan. If they make too many mistakes in their Trusted Computing movement they may fail entirely as a company in the near future.
Re:Microsoft on its way out (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Microsoft on its way out (Score:4, Insightful)
Secondly, Ms probably doesn't want "Anything outside that market". If you've ever studied business a day in your life, you'd know that companies tend to focus on what they're good at. Those who try doing too much tend to fail. MS expands into other markets, but very slowly and cautiously. They're printing money with Windows & Office, and if they lock people into it even more, well, then they're going to keep on printing money ad infinitum.
Please. Think before posting.
Microsoft cannot be punished... (sigh) (Score:5, Insightful)
2. Netscape et. al. convinces Gov't to sue MS for monopolistic, anticompetitive practices.
3. MS is found guilty of monopolistic, anticompetitive practices.
4. MS is slapped on the wrist by the Gov't and promises to play nice, ships OS update to remove the IE icon from the desktop.
5. {six months pass}
6. MS announces even tighter integration of IE into the OS.
Pity they weren't broken up.
Re:Microsoft cannot be punished... (sigh) (Score:5, Informative)
Why don't you research what you say next time?
It is a fact, as found by a US court, that Microsoft is not only a monopoly, but an abusive one, deserving of severe punishment. The Bush administration got a large sum of cash from Microsoft, and made it go away conveniently.
Where's _your_ research?
*blinks* (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:*blinks* (Score:5, Insightful)
Now that is an interesting point. MS got AOL to back down on the browser wars by giving them what amounts to a permanent license to IE for next to nothing. Now they're saying that there won't be an independant IE anymore for AOL to license or use. So AOL gets stuck with a out-of-date browser, or has to force its users to keep on the Windows upgrade treadmill. It also looses any chance of ever competing with Microsoft, and can now be killed any time Microsoft feels like it. (Through the old "Windows isn't done until Lotus won't run" tricks)
Wow. Those Time-Warner executives who're calling the shots are so much more business-savvy than the AOL ones who were in charge before. Why is it that whenever a company starts doing something criminal and anticompetitive, other companies start lining up to get their heads chopped off?
Re:AOL and MS (Score:3, Interesting)
Would probably be tough to call it anti-competitive too. "Look, we went to AOL and they did this contract with us!"
So MS has decided to stop competing? (Score:5, Informative)
In any case, it doesn't really matter. Strange that Microsoft would virtually abandon a project that could have much work done to it, and yet try to push along new OS/Office versions which really have much possible improvement.
Maybe they are realizing that they can't compete with the Moz group, and are deciding to go in through the back door, back to their old tricks.
Because the browser is free, and the OS costs $ (Score:5, Insightful)
As time goes by, more and more applications become web-based. These days, consumers are more concerned about the version of their browser than the version of their operating system. When you try to hit your favorite web sites, check your web-based email, etc., it doesn't matter whether you're on Windows 98 or Windows XP: the browser version is what matters. They know they can't simply start charging for browsers, so the way to fix this issue is to only do new browsers with new operating systems, and blur the line between the browser version and the OS version.
Bottom line, Microsoft wants to get consumers more interested in OS versions again. If consumers see a web site that says, "Sorry, you need Windows 2005 to view this site," then they have a much higher chance of opening their pocketbooks than if the web site says, "Sorry, you need IE8 to view this site."
Re:Because the browser is free, and the OS costs $ (Score:3, Insightful)
oh say like MOZILLA...
I have faith that the mozilla project coders will be able to implement any 'special' features microsoft adds to their browser. Especially if its based on open web standards like XML, CSS, HTML...
Laughable. Sad. (Score:5, Insightful)
No matter what your opinion is about the anti-trust trial or anti-trust laws in general, this is a clear display of how the Bush administration favors big business and selectively enforces laws in the favor of big business. The DOJ forced a "slap in the wrist" settlement against MS, and now MS and co. don't fear doing again what they were found guilty of doing before.
The Microsoft Asteroid (Score:3, Informative)
More and more people are not buying the upgrades for either Hardware or Software, because what they have is just good enough. This is driving manufacturers wacko. For word processing and basic home stuff, a few hundred megs of CPU speed is good enough. There is no compelling need. A lot of people are not doing the routine upgrade, and are getting off the treadmill.
Although their cash reserves gives them a decent shot.
Well, of course it will. (Score:5, Interesting)
Now that that case is put to rest it's about time they made sure that the next generation of DRM technology can't be run under WINE or on the MAC. The best approach I can imagine for this is to have is use an entirely proprietary API for IE and to update it with WindowsUpdate. It's not hard to imagine the newbie surfing along who gets this webpage.
Our web servers have observed that your computer needs several security updates available for free from Microsoft [here]. For the safety of our customers we cannot allow you to continue surfing our site until these updates are in place. We apologize for any inconvenience.
At that point the user is using the latest IE with DRM enabled with no idea how many or few sites need it. All your content can then be DRM protected by default with FrontPage, and the user's take is that everything "just works" when they use IE, and has intermittant and annoying problems with every other browswer. This strategy is getting old.
Its standalone now? (Score:3, Interesting)
As it currently stands the browser is effectively integrated into the OS and for all intents and purposes most people who use Windows don't view it as a separate component.
Try updating an older version of IE and see what it does to the OS. Try getting your aunt or grandfather to use Mozilla or Opera.
This is just a shipping simplification on their part not a change of policy.
Browser testing? (Score:5, Interesting)
Not that I need a version number, but I would like to know how they're going to dole out any updates to Javascript, CSS, and the like. I sure hope it doesn't become small updates like "CSS Update 12-2-04". The goood thing about browsers up until this point, new features were released all at once in slow updgrade cycles, which meant you were testing at a stationary, not a moving, target. I'm curious to know how this will be handled from now on.
And yes, yes I know, "code to standards", which is the way it *should* be, but in practice, there's the reality that not all browsers output the way you need them to (especially IE).
Re:Browser testing? (Score:5, Informative)
Hmm, I never figured out how to easily make IE6 and IE5 work on the same machine.
As a web designer, this worries me. How am I supposed to test my sites from here on out?
The way I do it is to use Wine on Linux. You can just have multiple fake windows directories, and switching between different installed versions of IE becomes a matter of switching a symlink.
Of course, if in future IE is not available as a separate upgrade, that approach won't work terribly well.
Re:Browser testing? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think Microsoft should be given a good dose of their own medicine. Code to XPFE [mozdev.org]. Write remotely distributed web applications [oreillynet.com] using XUL and friends [xulplanet.com]. Link to your application from a plain vanilla web site that contains an "only works w/ Mozilla" icon that points to the Mozilla site [mozilla.org].
Of course there's a big difference between coding Mozilla specific applications and coding MS/IE only applications. Mozilla is an open-source project built on open standards. MS could, if they so choose, implement any of Mozilla's features they like. The converse is not true.
If enough people get Mozilla on their desktop, and enough people start writing good XFPE applications, this could put a serious dent in MS's plans for world domination. Among other things, Mozilla doesn't require Windows. If you write a Mozilla application, you're doing cross-platform development. If the Oracles, IBM's, SAP's, ERP vendors and the like don't see the value of this, they are missing a golden opportunity.
Take the on-line banking example people seem to be so fond of today. You could build an extraordinarily rich on-line banking application on top of Mozilla today, than virtually anyone using any operating system could access. They would have to download Mozilla, which is free. Contrast that w/ writing to IE. Perhaps MS will someday offer an intriguing feature, but if you want your clients to enjoy the experience they will need to run the latest version of MS Windows. Unless they have a recent PC, it will cost them money to use your site. That's assuming they have a PC, and have reserved room on their hard drive to install an MS OS.
And then there's AOL. After years of investing in Mozilla, at a time when their labors are bearing fruition, they ink an ignominious deal with their biggest enemy. The board of directors should take the people responsible for this to the woodshed, spank them soundly, and send them packing. How could management be so ignorant of the value of their own assets? They could do things on AOL using XPFE [mozilla.org] that would make the MSN droids drool. What dopes. On top of that, how much further development do you think a billion dollar settlement would have funded?
What the hell? (Score:3, Insightful)
Q: Why is this? the anti-trust? (no further standalone)
A: Although this is off topic, I will answer briefly: Legacy OSes have reached their zenith with the addition of IE 6 SP1. Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS.
What, exactly, about web browsing could require 'enhancements to the underlying OS'? The only answer I can think of is DRM/Palladdium, but of course Microsoft does not want to say that. They want these "improvements" to sound like "features" that people would actually want. Perhaps they will play on peoples' fears of online banking and ordering?
Let's hope (Score:4, Funny)
Then the circle will be complete!
So does this mean there will be no IE7? (Score:5, Insightful)
My question is, does this mean that end users will have to upgrade their OS to receive a new browser version? If this is the case, that's a huge blow to web developers. There are still a lot of things that IE6 supports poorly or not at all: transparent PNGs, CSS2, etc. I'm not seeing any indication that Microsoft is concerned about the continuing development of their browser AT ALL.
IE6 has really stagnated, and since Microsoft and AOL settled, I firmly believe that AOL will stop paying developers to work on Mozilla/Netscape. If both IE and Mozilla stagnate, the people who lose are developers whose platform is a web browser. I'm concerned that the stagnation of both browsers may stifle the innovation of developers who wish to deploy applications to standards-compliant web browsers instead of to a specific platform. (This means that those of you who don't use Windows should be VERY concerned, because if web browsers stagnate now, developers will continue to develop for a single platform instead of to a standards-compliant web browser platform. Microsoft doesn't seem to be interested in extending IE's functionality -- instead, the company seems to be pushing developers to make IE plugins, which creates lock-in.)
The Web has only been around for 10 years, and has only really taken off in the last 6. I don't think browser innovation is at its "zenith", and I certainly don't believe that DRM is the only thing left to add to browsers. It concerns me that Microsoft (or at least that Microsoft spokesperson) seems to think this is the case.
Let's hope they're actually fixing what's wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Those of us who make websites for a living don't care what it's tied to as long as Microsoft can follow standards. If the browser is truly XHTML/CSS/Javascript compliant I don't care if it requires a blood sample to boot, it means that I won't have to do any browser detection or special cases to deliver a site to my clients, saving them money and me some grey hairs.
How about a new version of IE for OS X, eh? We've been stuck with this one for 2 years.
"i wont use it" arguements wont work. (Score:4, Insightful)
While that may work for some of us, big business ( the core of the market ) WILL use it, will upgrade and will continue to bend over to DRM.
Eventually 'we outsiders' will be pushed into a non operational status.. Sort of like trying to pay for a burger with out 'money'.. sure its not requred, but try to live outside the 'system'..
This is only one more step in the process of domination of freedom.
Sure ill fight it to the last like the rest of you.. but bitching about it on here wont do squat for stopping the process for the *masses*. ( i.e : sheep )
Re:"i wont use it" arguements wont work. (Score:5, Insightful)
- Ghandi (i think)
Capitalism to the rescue (Score:3, Interesting)
If there is enough people that wants or do not want something it will be provided.
Case in point, Internet Banking. There is not much value Added that a Bank can do. Remember Gates' much maligned comment a few years ago (pre interenet if I remember) that banking will be reduces to a few lines of code. He was close to being right, except Banks didn't want that and rebelled.
If there is a ma
This is a real quagmire (Score:3, Insightful)
Banks will offer discounted MS software or... (Score:5, Interesting)
At some point, bank X will say "we're now going to require IE8 to secure online banking".
People will complain and say "hey, but I only have WinXP, and I can't get Win2006" (or whatever it becomes).
Microsot will have contacted banks and negotiated a way for banks to giveaway (or sell) copies of the latest Windows version, locking in users who may have considered switching at that point.
Bank replies with (or promotes in branches)
"Hey - to give you the ultimate in security, we're going to require Windows 2006 - the best in security. If you don't have a copy, we can sell you an copy for only $29.95, which can be applied to your checking account over a 3 month period - that's less than $10 month for modern security!" or something like that.
People will just use it because it's going to be pushed by most major banks. MS is the only company that can afford to do this (buy mindshare from large companies) and they're about the only company can can't afford NOT to do it as well.
Perhaps banking with MS software will be 'free' and using something else (linux/mac) will cost a 'security fee' because you're using something that can't be 'trusted'. There are teller fees, why not 'browser fees' for 'untrusted' browsers?
Microsoft may have already bought a bank (or started their own) in the next few years anyway. Banking fees are certainly a stream of steady income. If WalMart can sell used cars (probably real estate at some point too!) does MS banking sound all that far-fetched? Perhaps everyone writing M$ will give the idea even more credibility!
Standalone installation?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
If WinXP wants to protect its help system, that's fine. But the IE frontend shouldn't have anything to do with that. And even so, there's no excuse for Outlook being undeletable. It doesn't show up in the Add/Remove applications window, even under "Windows components"
The reality behind this decision. (Score:3, Interesting)
- IE's layout & rendering codebase is a big, huge, monolitic piece of junk. It was no longer fruitful to maintain.
- The time is ripe for significant advancements in the browser space, and for integrating the notable advantages of a DOM-like model with the notable advantages of more traditional programming APIs
- Win32 is getting old. So is GDI. Unmanaged code is out. WinForms is crusty.
- Unless Microsoft introduces interesting and significant new technologies in the next version of Windows, it is going to see diminishing sales.
I'll let you do the guessing.An odd note in the transcript (Score:5, Insightful)
Host: Rob (Microsoft)
Q: when will IE get transparent PNG support?
A: Ian, I'm sorry, I can't answer that question for you
With this:
Host: Brian (Microsoft)
Q: Why is this? the anti-trust? (no further standalone)
A: Although this is off topic, I will answer briefly: Legacy OSes have reached their zenith with the addition of IE 6 SP1. Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS
It would seem that MS has painted itself into a corner with the feature set of IE. They seem to rely on the OS for so many things the browser does (like alpha blending, or the lack thereof). I wonder if the OS development team has oversight of the IE development team. There really isn't much reason that the IE team wouldn't be able to build a feature like alpha blending independant of the OS (lots of apps like Photoshop do this), unless they have been told not to deviate from the OS feature roadmap. Why else wouldn't the IE Program Manager be able to answer a question about PNG support? Sometimes it seems like the IE team is really just a department of the OS team, which is something that MS could not legally admit from what I understand.
Tim Berners Lee on ... (Score:4, Informative)
In any event, in this article, TBL - creator of the web - discusses what his greatest fear for it would be. In other words, what would harm the web most?
His answer: A "split" internet. Browser A is best used for this site, browser B is best for this one. DRM, thus, is technology that will do - as most of us are no doubt aware - more harm than good. It DESTROYS the ubiquitous nature of how one SHOULD be allowed to access online content. Time, ironically, has designed their site to be used with Browsers X and Y (Netscape and IE).
Today on Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)
But? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Erm... (Score:5, Informative)
Strategy reversal (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Erm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Wasn't that what MSFT was sued for in the first place? They bundle the browser with the monopoly OS in order to stamp out competition? Haven't they learned anything?
Well I guess they have ... they have learned that they can get away with it.
Re:Erm... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Erm... (Score:5, Informative)
If I get it right, MSIE 6 is already not available as a standalone application for MacOS - it has only a "sort of" presence as a part of the whole MSN for MacOS X [microsoft.com] package.
Re:All your whining finally lands on us... (Score:5, Insightful)
The community may bitch, but MS is doing the design. Why would MS's reaction to community bitching be the communities fault and not MS's fault?
You have a strange concept of responsibility. (Troll?)
Re:All your whining finally lands on us... (Score:5, Insightful)
I've always said it, and I always will, the community's incessant bitching about how insecure microsoft is has led to attrocities in design.
If security was designed in from the start, the design should be elegant and transparent to the end user.
Example: Windows file protection - to avoid DLL Hell. DLL Hell was pure and simple bad user habits (running in Administrator mode etc etc). So they made a system that completely bypasses security, and disallows everyone on your system from changing files... even administrators. It's a travesty, that's what it is.
That actually was a response by MS to programmers who felt like using a specific API in a specific DLL, of felt they could just over-run Microsoft's designs willy-nilly. Remember, the most pervasive Windows out there is still the 9x series, not NT and it's modern kin. Most users are root whether they like it or not.
Well, here we see another travesty: because of simple HTML script exploits, which under normal circumstances (ie, if you weren't running as admin) would have very little consequences, Moft has come up with another travesty, has introduced 'state' into what should be stateless... And as a result, I just can feel the hours and hours of headache that is now set upon us programmers, for the rest of time.
Two issues:
1 - Once a machine is compromised as any user, there are other ways to elevate privileges. IOW, runnig as admin usually has little or no effect to a serious cracker.
2 - If the security mechanisms are properly designed, you won't be spending "hours and hours" dealing with security. If you are, Microsoft will have done a piss-poor job (again)
I can clearly recall posts on slashdot, (but to be fair:
What is supposed to be and end user application is an integral part of the OS. Sounds like a recipie for exploits to me. Unless of course they implement stringent secutiry mechanisms.
All I have to say is BULLSHIT... IE has as many priviledges as the user running it - and as such, just as many, not any more than Mozilla running at the same user level.
But Moz isn't part of the OS. BTW, IIRC, IE (specifically MSHTML) is loaded into memory before a user logs on. That means that that part of the browser requires system level priveleges. Mozilla's "turbo" mode (whatever it's called) requires you to log in first. See a diffrence?
Now, because of that bitching, we have a 'lowered priviledge set'... something which isn't based on users... it's a whole policy scheme... It's introducing complexity where there is no need for any... Yadi yada... *Sigh*...
Security is never easy, but it need not be complex. The one thing MS usually does well is make life easy on thier drone^H^H^H^H^Hdevelopers (right, Mr. Ballmer?), so you may have an easier time that you think. Unless you're so used to security as an after thought, that it does become a pain. IMHO, that puts you squarely in the "Part of the problem" camp.
Boo on everyone.
No, shame on you for not wanting to have to do any work at all in order to have secure code.
Soko
No, you got it all wrong! (Score:3, Insightful)
Further improvements to IE will require enhancements to the underlying OS.
Emacs is said to be the text editor that pretends to be an OS, but the new IE will be the first browser that is an OS...
Re:Oh!!, Just another reson to talk to CTO!! (Score:5, Funny)
I have TCO meeting with my CTO in OCT and it'll be so boring I'll need a COT.
Re:Looking back on the Internet's development... (Score:5, Insightful)
Bond of trust? What fairytale world are you living in? Is copyprotection a bond of trust? How come there are all these shitty CD's being released that won't play on computers? Is that the bond of trust you are talking about? How about the news that moviegoers are going to be metal-detected when going to see Finding Nemo? Is that trust?
Re:My favorite question (Score:3, Informative)
If only MS could be bothered to fully implement web standards, it would be much easier to create nice looking sites.