Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing' 952
This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.
Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas (Score:5, Interesting)
But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold [usbusinessvisa.com], unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas (Score:5, Informative)
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
It is quite clear that the US companies are using the tactics of outsourcing purely for their own financial benefit. It is extremely naive to think otherwise. And this is not just a US phenomenon. Every company around the world that outsources cheaper expertise and/or labour is doing just that... trying to get a competitive edge over its rivals by cutting costs. And I am sure that all the Indian developers (all but some of the greenhorns fresh out of college) know this fact when they're getting into it.
So why do the Indians still do it?
The Indian software firms use the US necessity as an opportunity to grow themselves internationally. An Indian company bagging a key US contract can proudly proclaim their achievement and use it as a differentiator amongst its local peers.
Some of the developers, who are geekily inclined, love the opportunity of doing some 'quality development' and so they hardly complain. Others are overjoyed at the prospect of travelling to the US and hence jump onto the bandwagon!
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!
With the US (and the global) economy having gone through a rough patch over the last year, the Indian companies have slashed their margins big time, to remain attractive for the Us companies to continue doing business with them. And I think the Indians have understood that in the immediate future they will need to stay one step ahead of their competitors by being the cheapest even though India has managed to brand itself as a key mover of the knowledge-based economy.
Differentiating on price (Score:5, Interesting)
supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent
His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)
Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.
I did find it amusing in a previous
Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.
Price is King (Score:3, Interesting)
IMHO, it is not just price but the extent to which companies and governments will go to keep the price of their labor low. If it was just the free market at work, wages would raise, and all boats would rise together. Tieing large anchors to the labor force, will cause everyone dependent on wages to sink.
Re:Price is King (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Differentiating on price (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, the english is better in the Philippines. There are two national languages in the Philippines; English and Tagolog. America actually occupied the Phillipines from the time of the Spanish-American war until the 1950s, when it was offered Statehood. The Philippines declined and became a sovereign nation, but still had American bases until the 1990s. During this time, English became as widely spooken in business as Tagolog and it is considered a pre-requisit to get a job.
I have visited the Philippines twice and my fiancee is Filippina. I have also done business with Philippino companies and have directly witnessed their work ethic. I have been working in the Silicon Valley for 12 years and also have experience with Indian workers and Indian companies. I can tell you with full certainty: Philippinos have better work ethic, are generally smarter and have a higher degree of education, speak english more fluently and work cheaper than Indians. The one downside is that, since this is not well recognized, there are not as many companies doing outsourcing in the Philippines. Yet.
Competition to India is coming. And it is not just the Philippines. Asia cranks out more engineers than any other part of the world. These guys are smart, ambitious and will work for nothing.
For my dollar, however, I would still rather outsource to Russian firms. They have the best engineers in the world (outside of the Silicon Valley itself).
Re:Accents etc (Score:3, Insightful)
Get out of the national media and you'll definietly hear more regional accents.
But by and large, not having an accent is measured against the national-level broadcast media.
Resentment or Networking Opporunity? (Score:4, Interesting)
On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.
Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure they won't...
But they might find themselves sadly out of luck because of high "cost to exit". See, the capital involved in IT is the knowledge, therefore, the people. Companies are irrelevant. Trying to change the outsourcing provider means discarding currently invested capital and starting from scratch.
The reason this is
Can I have my old dot-com job back? (Score:4, Funny)
Here's a question for them (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Here's a question for them (Score:4, Funny)
Numbers and figures. (Score:5, Informative)
-Srividya
Re:Numbers and figures. (Score:3, Informative)
7000 INR = 154.79 USD
50 INR = 1.10 USD
Re:Numbers and figures. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars (Score:5, Interesting)
I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.
Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).
The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.
Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.
Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.
One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.
Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).
$$$ in developers pockets... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:$$$ in developers pockets... (Score:5, Informative)
I might be able to answer that in real terms for outsourcing projects (instead of just relocating the jobs)
During the dotcom and shortly after, the going rate for Java developers was around $100-$120 per hour (Northern California). To undercut the competitors and local contractors, an Asian software company bid on (and received a contract) to supply Java programmers.
The billing was at $80 per hour. Out of that, the programmers on site received the following:
:)
a. $40-$50 per diem fees (yes, that's right.. per DAY)
b. free fuel
c. a rented car
d. rented housing, situated reasonably close to their office
Each of the outsourced contracts typically ran for 8-12 months. Obviously, the programmers were also flown in and back home by the parent company. Now, you figure the margins
Disclaimer: this is just one case.. so YMMV
Average experience? (Score:5, Interesting)
What's the diff? (Score:4, Insightful)
And this was not the case here in the USA during the "Dot Com Boom"? I sense an invalid argument...
Re:What's the diff? (Score:3, Insightful)
What argument? He never said that this wasn't the case during the dot-com days (it clearly was). He is just trying to get a feel for the scene over there, how similar it is to the scene here in the late 90s. A valid question if you ask me, especially considering that most of us have no clue about the average Indian programmer.
Mark
Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... (Score:4, Insightful)
While there is a degree of truth in your argument, let's not forget, for instance, that HTML/HTTP was invented in Europe, as was Linux.
Code Monkeys v. Architect? (Score:5, Interesting)
First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?
If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?
Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?
Quality of life (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Insightful)
What you said couldn't be more true. People in the US are screaming about worker right and such, but where I was working, there as this thing called "Freedom to Work Law" which states something to the effect that if you want to quit you got the legal right to do so, and if your boss want to let you go, he can do so at the moment notice - so much for job protection.
The result of such law and working environment? Well, when my boss' in his office, everyone pretends to work hard; when he is off, no one work, Period!
Oh, Med insurance, co pay, and deduction are entirely different matter. Talk about the US education system with its "Left no Child Behind" initiative - what a joke.
By the time all these things figured out, my pay checks was much smaller than what I would make here in Canada, where I have to work for a grand total of 37.5 hours per week.
Did I say my US employer only expects me to work a minimum of 45 hours per weeek?
Yup the previous poster was just trolling.
Bye America.
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Insightful)
My first rule of thumb is..."I do not work for free". I work, I work hard, and do what it takes to get the job done, but, I do not work for free.
Look into contracting, friend...at least get paid for the work you do. I'm a contract employee...kind of in both worlds. I get 4 weeks a year vacation/sick time...10 holidays..until last 2 years..didn't have to pay anything towards my benefits..now, I pay $8/paycheck for full coverage (med, dental, eye).
Good jobs are out there, but, you gotta be flexible...and go to where they are...
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Funny)
Was that when you were working in India, or when you were working in California?
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Informative)
No.
Are you allowed to organize into unions?
There are no unions for engineers/programmers. The companies have two "unions" - NASSCOM for software and MAIT for hardware.
Legally, nothing stops anyone from organizing a union, but on the few attempts made by some engineers, the HR guys across several companies - including US owned operations - shared info and blacklisted those engineers. (Basically HR people are the same kind of scum the world over. Refer to Catbert for details.)
How long is your work week?
Legally 40 hours. People may spend 50 to 60 hours if required. Usually it is, thanks to the stupid conference calls that US managers love.
What are your working conditions like?
Standard dilbert cubicle.
What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
Vacation = usually 25 days a year. This may be called "earned leave" or "privileged leave" and is encashable for money if not consumed.
Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.
Medical = Rs 15000/- a year for misc medical expenses.
Medical insurance coverage is required.
Profit sharing = optional. Wipro gives it. Can't say about any others.
Stock options = optional. I know some people who are millionaires. Yes, in US dollars. I've not made a penny. Yet.
Hope this helps.
Re:Quality of life (Score:3, Funny)
Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.
Medical insurance coverage is required.
So what you're saying is, benefits are better in India than they are in the U.S.
Plenty of Jobs, good benefits, I think I'm moving to India.
Re:Quality of life (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Informative)
Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.
Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.
How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.
What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)
What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be atleast 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.
I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about$350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.
Re:Quality of life (Score:5, Informative)
Also note that American white collar workers have the longest work weeks and shortest vacations of pretty much any country in the world.
As for medical and dental benefits, those are factored into the compensation, and are not a hidden cost.
Two Q (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."
11K/year (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:11K/year (Score:5, Insightful)
(Ultimately, it should be hoped that living costs will come down in those US cities, but the monkey wrench in the works is housing: people are not willing to sell their homes for less than they paid for it, and with low interest rates on financing, they haven't felt a reason to yet.)
Re:11K/year (Score:3)
Re:11K/year (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:11K/year (Score:3, Insightful)
First, they aren't expected to live off this. These jobs are expected to be filled by part time workers - house wives, students, etc - to provide them with a little extra income. But should a person with any shred of ambition decide to make a career in fast food, they can end up drawing a larger salary than someone who spe
Re:Where do you live? (Score:3, Informative)
Working-age adults:
Combined unemployed, self-employed, temprorary and part-time workers: approx. 40M or 18.9% of eligible workers.
Not in the work force, approximately 60M or 33% of eligible workers.
Total: 51.9%
Which means fewer than 50% of working-age adults were holding down full-time, permanent jobs. And this was in 1997, when the economy was doing rather well, if I recall.
Population vs. population with jobs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Hmm (Score:4, Funny)
Education and Training (Score:5, Interesting)
Education Costs (Score:5, Interesting)
How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)
Re:Education Costs (Score:3, Informative)
Real estate prices and cost of living (Score:5, Interesting)
Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?
Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?
Biggest Contrast (Score:5, Interesting)
-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size
Re:Biggest Contrast (Score:3, Interesting)
---Internet Connection
I use a dialup at home... but that suffices for part... but good broadband *is*available for very affordable rates. including 128 kpbs ones on CDMA mobile phones
----electricity
This is the biggest grouse for a Bangalorean. We still depend majorly on Hydel power.. it was set up in 1902
---Water
Summers can be very dry sometimes
---Living space.
Bangaloreans, traditionally prefer indep
Cost of living? (Score:5, Interesting)
How about food for 1 month?
Utilities, etc?
Re:Cost of living? (Score:5, Informative)
Depends on how far it is from what americans call "downtown." See, unlike in the US, people in Indian cities prefer to live *near* downtown. So rents are much much higher if the flat is close to where the offices and shops are. Such a flat might cost around Rs 25000/- per month (around $500/-) and would be 1500 sq ft in size. 20 minutes away would be around Rs 10000/- per month. 30 minutes away would be around 5000/- per month.
How about food for 1 month?
I can eat out every night for less than Rs 300/- per person per night. If I cook at home, it'll probably cost me around 50/- max. (That's around $1 and change.) I don't have breakfast, and lunch is Rs 25 at the office - that's 50c to you.
Utilities, etc?
I assume that means water and power.
Let's see - power would be between 500/- to 1000/-
Water would usually be included in the flat rent or building charge. Say another 1500/- which would include water (unmetered) plus security and the use of the building gym and/or swimming pool.
Respect (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Respect (Score:5, Insightful)
I would not phrase the issue the way you have quoted.
I would instead, with experience in the matter, address the dichotomy this way:
It's not that the Indians are not capable of all those things; they are. But it is a matter of maintaining your core competencies, and ownership of design. Any outsourcing contractor has only one stake in the success: money. You have a stake in the success in many ways, and should always work to refine your own designs until they're perfect. No other firm in the world cares how effective your products are. These offshore companies excel at turning a definition into a production: that's their business model. The outsourcing houses are not geared up to do your designs for you, to read your minds, to focus-group your market, to educate you, or to replace you.
Paraphrasing the old maxim, Make it work, make it work well, then (get someone else to) make it work cheap.
American Programmers (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:American Programmers (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't have to be bitter, it works both ways: many european companies prefer hiring US firms to do software or hardware projects, depriving local computer engineers of their jobs, because of the higher taxes and stricter employment regulations in the EC. Nobody in the US seems to complain about this, or feel bad about jobless EC workers, so why should Indians should feel bad about the US programmers they put out of a job?
Re:American Programmers (Score:5, Insightful)
1/7th of what the job is worth *in the US*. In India, I suspect they're pretty well paid.
That's the flip-size of globalization my friend: since the end of WW2, the US have been busy opening new markets abroad for themselves. Now the new markets in question start to have the ability to compete on the same fields as US industries, and the ole globalization tactic is backfiring.
The USA hurt european countries bad in its days too, now it's their turn to get hit by emerging countries. Every part of the globe has had a glorious economic world-domination era at some point in history, be it Portugal, Italy, France or Britain. America's has started to decline. Tough luck, you're watching History in progress.
China and India have slowed down the Japanese economy, and now they're banging on your door guys. Time to get used to 10+% unemployment, like the rest of us.
What are Indians' attitudes toward the West? (Score:5, Interesting)
And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.
Re:I agree and disagree with you (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.
I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.
As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.
Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.
Distorting the Economy (Score:5, Interesting)
Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?
Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?
What about the long-term? (Score:5, Interesting)
---
The Simpsons (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:The Simpsons (Score:5, Interesting)
Apu represents the stereotypical image of an Indian. I personally find it quite amusing, others may have a different opinion. Of course, like any other stereotype, not everyone fits that description. What makes India so interesting is the different subcultures within the country (these differences are more pronounced than the subculture differences in the US), people skeak different languages in different states, different types of food and in some cases different types of clothes as well. So Apu cannot represent a typical Indian
Apu & Manjula are indeed Indian names - not very common but not uncommon either. So are the names of all their kids
Re:The Simpsons (Score:5, Insightful)
Tech Center Job Prestige (Score:4, Interesting)
Interview Question: starting your own businesses (Score:4, Interesting)
Questions to ask (Score:4, Interesting)
Why are so many Indians in American CS programs? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs (Score:4, Interesting)
Have you planned better than us? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hopefully you guys are able to weather the storm better than us.
Reverse resentment? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Reverse resentment? (Score:3, Insightful)
If so, I believe resentment of India or its people is misplaced. I'm a U.S. programmer; I'm fortunate in that I haven't lost my job to outsourcing, at least not yet. If I did, however, the "blame" would reside perhaps with myself, perhaps with my employer, or perhaps with the stockholders that my employer answers to. Pre
Do they all buy Gateways? (Score:4, Funny)
(It's a joke people!)
For love or money? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.
Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?
What is the standard of living like? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:What is the standard of living like? (Score:4, Informative)
And for the living costs $11,000 does not makes you live like a king for the stats
1) An average flat with (2-3 rooms) costs between Rs.5,000 - Rs. 15,000) per month on rent. But these flats are still below par with what you would call an average flat in USA.
2) Buying a flat would cost you around (Rs. 1,000,000 - Rs 2,500,000 ) and thats average (as above ).
3) A car costs between Rs. 250,000 for a Maruti 800 (a 800 cc car with no frills not even an A/C )
to a Ford Ikon (a low end luxury car yeah we call it a luxury car ) for Rs. 500,000 and yeah they have a lot of other realy luxury cars like Mitsuibishi Lancer , Mercedes Benz but they are all out of reach of even a good earning programmer. Most programmers would generally own a two wheeler as the cost of running is low due to low petrol (oops gas) consumption (petrol is Rs. 36 / litre approx )
4) A music CD would cost around Rs. 100 to Rs. 300. A DVD for Rs. 400 Rs. 1,000.
5) A decent shirt would cost in excess of Rs. 500 and a decent pair of trousers arount Rs. 1,000.
6) Food costs are arount Rs. 50 - 100 if you cook at home or Rs. 75 - Rs.150 if u eat out. The cheapest coffee at Barrista (the most popular coffee shop chain here) costs Rs. 30.
7) And yeah a desktop costs around Rs. 30,000 for an economy machine to Rs. 50,000 for a decent one.
8) Telephone costs aroud Rs. 1,000 pm under basic use and Rs. 2,000 to Rs. 3,000 if u make more call or are using dialup internet connectivity (and 98% or so use it).
9) Broadband is either not available or if it costs around Rs. 2,000 pm with dload speeds of 20 kbps (yeah thats b-band in India).
There are other basic eminities but this can give an idea of living costs in India and yeah $11,000 gives you only a decent living below par a middle class in USA but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West and there are a lot more people earning a lot less than us.
free software in india... (Score:5, Interesting)
i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?
Does it work? (Score:5, Interesting)
The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.
From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)
So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?
New Indian Startup Companies (Score:5, Interesting)
The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.
Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job ? (Score:5, Interesting)
Questions (Score:3, Interesting)
2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?
3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?
(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!!
There is a bright side (Score:3, Interesting)
First, outsourcing is not new. Every great industry has been built on the ruins of another, somewhere else. Textiles, agriculture, automobiles, shipbuilding, steel,... we've always seen jobs move to where they cost less.
Secondly, although this always hurts those losing their jobs, it almost always brings much greater benefits back than those jobs would keep. Example: without the cheap Asian ships and cheap third-world sailors who man them, everything you buy would cost much more.
Thirdly, there is nothing quite as stimulating as the collapse of one industry to create new ones. Do you really wish you worked in a coal mine? Much of software production has become so routine and monotonous that it's the modern equivalent of industrial labour. There is a reason why these jobs can be done more cheaply, and it's only partly because the Indian workforce is cheap. It's also because the very jobs have become banal.
Consider China, the factory of the world, sending its goods to every country and region of the world. China, which is today the world's second largest importer of goods and services. Instead of trying to compete with a Chinese DVD player at $15, consider that Rolex sells more real solid gold $15,000 watches in China than in any other country.
The rise of the Indian technical support industry should be seen as a sign of hope: thousands, millions of new customers for the leading-edge products that you should be capable of designing and delivering.
Trade is not a pie that you slice and share. It's a reaction that needs constant movement to keep active and grow. Every new Indian job means new opportunities and jobs here in the US as well. It just takes imagination and drive to make it happen.
Well, I do have one question for our Indian colleagues: how do you feel about the bitching that most Westerners show when asked about Indian IT? I mean, presumably you studied hard and feel that you're allowed to compete fairly on an open market?
US dependence (Score:4, Interesting)
Opportunities for Promotion (Score:4, Interesting)
Innovation (Score:3, Interesting)
Answers (Score:5, Informative)
I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd. [tcs.com], India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.
Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.
Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.
Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?
I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.
How much experience do most Indian programmers have?
I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.
How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?
Personally, it bothers me
Education? (Score:4, Interesting)
Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.
Simple question, but with an explanation: Why? (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:
1. Basic computer knowledge is lacking.
Worst example: A simple hardware problem (insufficient air circulation due to a blocked fan) was twice diagnosed as a software failure and the computer owner was instructed to back-up 40+ Gb of data on to CDRs, format his hard drive and reinstall XP. Remember, this happened *twice*. When the first reinstallation didn't fix the problem, he was told to do exactly the same thing again. (Obviously without the back-ups.)
2. Poor communications skills.
Not just poor English but fundamental communication failings, such as not listening properly and not making any apparent attempt to understand.
I was in a situation last year when an Indian tech support person decided that to disgnose a faulty hard-drive I must follow his instructions for dismantling my own PC. He wanted every component unplugged, removed, and then re-assembled. I tried to follow his instructions but he used left/right and front/back interchangeably, as if there were no difference in meaning, and after half an hour of nervously removing components I was starting to feel a bit out of my depth. If we went much further I wasn't confident that I'd be able to put everything back together so I stopped there. I re-assembled the PC and decided to buy a new hard-drive even though the faulty one was still under warranty.
So my question to Indian tech workers would be:
In my experience, over several years and dealing with dozens of different tech support people, I have found that Indian staff are significantly less knowledgeable, less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?
Organised Crime (Score:3, Interesting)
Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?
If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?
Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this [hackerintel.com] article.
- Nicholas
Here is one question for you guys (out here) (Score:3, Informative)
coaxed, forced, badgered, bombed into succumbing an still when the same
free trade by the virtue of its definition turns around in one particular instance
there is so much insecurity, so much fear and so much FUD ?
Is it okay to export almost everything you can think of from genetic seeds to WMDs
to third world under tremondous pressure but when they can do a small job
better than you guys you start screaming bloody murder?
Have you all ever stopped and considered why there is so much terrorism in
middle east but why India has grown relatively peaceful (inspite of america's
staunch support to the biggest terrorist neighbour of India that it conviniently
turns a blind eye to while children are taught to hate america in their early
days at holy-schools)?
have you wondered that if you stop looking at the world like the British did,
a place to plunder, loot and exploit maybe, just maybe, the terrorism would
stop since people will have decent meals to eat and your own kids dont
have to get blown into pieces in Iraq so Bush can bask in glory, while
he re-defines marriage so he can deny basic rights to half the people ?
Wake up folks.
Geek culture in India? (Score:5, Interesting)
In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.
Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?
Re:Geek culture in India? (Score:5, Interesting)
Cheating in Indian Colleges? (Score:3, Interesting)
Customer Service (Score:5, Interesting)
In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?
Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?
-Goran
VA's push for Outsourcing (Score:3, Interesting)
Do you find it amusing that they try to stir up emotions by posting offshoring stories on slashdot to increase ad revenue from those hit hardest from outsourcing? Many readers voice their hatred of the act and are infact boosting the revenue of a company whose survival rests on the increased move of jobs to foriegn countries.
Do you consider VA Software to be a respectable organization?
VA Software Provides Better Governance For Offshore Outsourcing [vasoftware.com]
VA Software Uses Own 'Offshoring' Experience to Tune Flagship Product for Hot Growth Market [oocenter.com]
Hypocracy (Score:4, Funny)
Given that the US has reaped the benefit of capitalism for hundreds of years which has seen them (and the rest of the first world) exploit the third world ruthlessly, do you not find it hypocrytical that US IT workers are now complaining about receiving 'the back of the invisible hand'?
Raising required minimum pay standards (Score:4, Informative)
Why do companies want to use them? Simple-- to save money. It's never been a mystery despite how people want to lie about it. The desire to outsource? It's the same reason: "The Bottom-line."
So while I have read in previous articles that Indian IT workers actually argue that it's not the pay-cost-savings, but the quality of the work that is winning large contracts in India. So I would like an honest bit of feedback on this burning question:
If the U.S. lawmakers were pushed to write legislation that requires that outsourced labor earn 10% over American "fair-market" wages, would that be something you could get behind? Or if you think 10% more is too much for better quality, how about Equal to American "fair-market" wages for the same work? If you think that such law would threaten your current employment status, I think the argument about "quality" doesn't quite pass the acid test.
Sure, this is an embittered question, but it's one that demands honesty rather than a whole lot of flag waving. I think it's great for India and Pakistan that they have a resource that is working for them -- their people. I think it's great that thousands of people are rising above the poverty line! I want global economic improvement just as much as the next guy and possibly even more. But I don't think it requires that the U.S. economy suffers in order to improve another part of the world.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that any benefit that requires the failure of the U.S. economy would do so much more to harm the global economy that any improvement to other parts of the world wouldn't be enough to balance it all out and we'd be looking at a global economic crisis.
To illustrate my point, look at what happened to the entire Asian economy when Japan was going through its banking crisis. When the economic super-power that is Japan was suffering, it threatened not only to reduce it to ruins but to take all of asia down with it.
Consider that the U.S. currently holds the largest international consumer base in teh world. We buy stuff from EVERYWHERE
So not only are we taking U.S. dollars all but completely out of U.S. circulation in the U.S. never to return (because who BUYS anything from the U.S.? We're in a trade deficit with almost every nation we trade with!) buy buying labor overseas, but we're losing jobs in the U.S. which results in decreased buying power of our consumers!
This is no longer merely a threat of trading off our manufacturing and buying more from overseas, but this is a situation that has the potential of destroying our consumer base which would ultimately crash the world economy as far as countries supplying manufactured goods to the U.S.
Treatment to Americans? (Score:4, Interesting)
Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?
Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?
Finally, are there even many immigrants?
Re:Questions... (Score:5, Insightful)
1. How's it feel being detested by most of an entire industry back in the US of A (with the exception of the bean counters) ?
I'm a developer in the US, and I still have my job, but I'm having a hard time finding a software job in the geographic area where I want to move. But I don't detest the Indian people, nor do I feel that they've "stolen a job" from me. They're people like us. They want to make a living, they want to provide for themselves and their families, they want what most of us want. Jobs are available, and they're taking them. It's not like they're gathering together in some secret clubhouse buried under a cavern in the Himalayas and plotting how to make Americans' lives miserable. The reason this is happening is because of globalization, and personally, I still haven't decided if I think it's a good thing or not. I'm not going to have the knee-jerk reaction of "Of course it's bad", because the fact is, monetarily speaking, one of me is worth about four top-notch Indian developers. At the same time, though, enrollment in CS and engineering in US schools is plummeting, with the exception of foreign students. Globalization is great until relations break down between us and the country where our talent pool lives.
So speaking as an American programmer whose current livelihood is threatened by globalization, I can say that I hold no grudge against India, Russia, China, or any other country whose citizens are no less human than I am, and whose governments have the same capacity for corruption as my own. My job is marginally safer, since I work for a defense contractor. But it's just a matter of time before my job goes away too, and I'm willing to change careers if I have to. Sure, I could rail against India and American CEOs and bean counters, but that won't put food on my table.
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Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther (Score:3, Interesting)
Not a stereotype: I've got a Bangladeshi mom