Ford Launches First American Hybrid 635
Ford has finally rolled out their Escape hybrid SUV. Ford's website has more information. Ford will use Toyota's first-generation hybrid technology in the SUV (the 2004 Prius is Toyota's second generation technology). Best of all, the Escape is street-legal in residential areas. Update: 08/06 22:31 GMT by M : A reader points out that GM will be selling a hybrid pickup soon, but it isn't available for sale to the public yet, so Ford is still the first.
Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:2, Insightful)
Perhaps now the trend of ever increasing oil use in the USA and elsewhere can be reversed.
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:5, Insightful)
Why release a hybrid SUV? I am willing to bet that most people that would be interested in a hybrid vehicle would not want something that big. If I wanted a fuel-efficient hybrid car, I'd want something that didnt have to heave around 3000lbs of weight. It just seems like the "hybrid" and the "SUV" just cancel each other out.
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:2, Insightful)
I'd venture that some folks--like myself--that would be interested in a hybrid vehicle, might live in places that *nearly* require a four wheel drive vehicle during certain (seemingly endless) times of year.
Right now, I'm forced by my financial situation to drive a light, front-wheel drive car. Once winter hits, I loathe the thought of even having to cross this town (which NEVER plows their *#$@! streets) with my wife and infant in a puny front-wheel drive vehicle... Let alone d
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:4, Insightful)
1-SUV are gaz guzzlers.
2-Americans (and Canadians and many others for that matter) buy lots of SUV. Those customers are unlikely to switch to a prius or a civic, at least in the short term. SUV are more popular than ever.
3-30% better fuel economy in a SUV results in bigger fuel savings than in a small car on an absolute scale.
4-The added weight and size of the batteries matter less in a SUV than in a car because the SUV is bigger and heavier.
5-The price premium of the hybrid system is less of a deterrent to SUV buyers because they save more fuel (in absolute terms) and because SUV are tipically more expensive vehicules.
So, I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy a Hummer, I'm saying that people will not realistically give up their SUV any time soon. Since they won't mind as much paying the premium for an hybrid system, then they are a very good market.
Also, it pays for the R&D, which in turn will improve the performance of the hybrid systems and hopefully reduce the price.
To me, a hybrid SUV is a great short term compromise.
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:5, Insightful)
Not likely... (Score:2)
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:3, Insightful)
Currently, suburban spra
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:3, Insightful)
The rest of us think you look absolutely risible perched up in a 3 ton hunk of shit trying to negotiate a supermarket parking space. We stop laughing when you run over your dog/cat/child/grandmother because you can't fucking see out, though we perk up again when it snows and you slither into a ditch because you "off-road" vehicle is left standing by a
wow a hybrid that doesn't look like it (Score:3, Insightful)
FFS, cars have had that for decades. (Score:2)
Increased production would be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
You will never earn back the cost in gasoline. (Score:4, Insightful)
Until they cost the same as a similarly equipped vehicle these only are good for CAFE and feeling good about yourself (while ignoring the obvious fact you lost money on the deal)
Exactly (Score:3, Informative)
That $4,000 price premium buys a LOT of gas.
Of course this ignores any maintenance costs, which are probably higher for the hybrid (batte
Re:Increased production would be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Increased production would be a good idea (Score:4, Funny)
That's what trunks are for! If you really like the kids, you might even poke some holes in the lid of the trunk to let them breathe.
Why a Ford at all? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why a Ford at all? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why a Ford at all? (Score:5, Insightful)
No way. Read the "Lemon Aid" books sometime, especially regarding trucks and SUVs (I bought a Pathfinder a little while ago). Overwhelmingly, the Not Recommended vehicles are American, while the Recommended ones tend to be Japanese. This is on the basis of safety, reliability, and performance, all backed up by lots and lots of recall records and so forth.
Re:Why a Ford at all? (Score:3, Insightful)
Alright! (Score:5, Funny)
What's the damn point? I could just buy a used prius.
Re:Alright! (Score:5, Funny)
Plus you get to not see stuff in your rearview mirror accurately and totally run into other cars in the parking lot.
Re:Alright! (Score:2)
Now, you're supposed to actually, you know...look the hell behind you when you reverse...but that wasn't apparently on the SUV drivers' who hit me to-do list.
Re:Alright! (Score:5, Insightful)
I would bet insurance companies have already beat the government to it. SUVs cause more damage in accidents (higher liability insurance rates), and they cost more to repair (higher comprehensive insurance rates). Seriously, more people should consider Subarus or just the plain ol' family sedan, and, then, rent a darn truck when they need an SUV. They'd save a ton of money (and probably a ton of gas, too, literally).
Re:Alright! (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Alright! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Alright! (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Alright! (Score:2)
Let's hope it's price isn't too steep... (Score:3, Insightful)
Decent price (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Decent price (Score:5, Informative)
>Since no one in the US drives manual (except me
>it seems), I suspect $21,000 to start for most
>people.
Ford's web site - http://fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/index.a
It would be nice to see the government provide more tax credits to encourage use of these vehicles (less pollution, encourage new technology development, less gas use leading to less reliance on middle east oil, etc), but the existing credits are set to expire soon [ucsusa.org]. Meanwhile Bush wants to drill in Alaska [mountaininterval.org] for a minimal oil supply, but that's another story...
Re:Let's hope it's price isn't too steep... (Score:2, Funny)
Are you kidding? Half the draw of SUVs (to the idiots who buy them) is the bragging rights: "Yeah, I ponied up $48K for this monster. Worth every penny, though, every time I intimidate the compact in front of me on the highway into moving over to the next lane. All it takes is to follow them closely enough that you can't get a ping-pong ball between the bumpers." The more expensive it is, the more they'll like it. Sick bast
Re:Let's hope it's price isn't too steep... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not in the least. They're too big to fit in normal-size parking spots/garages; they roll over easily; they get lousy mileage; and they're not even that good for hauling things, as the cargo area is height-limited (and possibly occupied with seats -- not to mention that no SUV owner wants to scratch up his plush inter
Re:Let's hope it's price isn't too steep... (Score:2)
I actually would have gotten a Prius last year, but they were completely sold out in the Chicagoland area. There wasn't a single new Prius to be had for 6-8 months. That's w
Fansites (Score:2)
[sound of crickets chirping]
Still waiting for the Lexus 400h (Score:4, Insightful)
Toyota has been in the hybrid game longer than Ford and is licensing it's technology to Ford. My take is that Toyota will know how to implement it better.
Re:Still waiting for the Lexus 400h (Score:2)
While it may stifle some potential better designs, it makes the job of a car mechanic much less complicated.
Re:Still waiting for the Lexus 400h (Score:3, Informative)
So, Ford actually will benefit from the years of Prius experience, to some extent.
Ford also cross-licensed the Toyota hybrid patents.
[disclaimer: I just bought two Priuses -- I love the car!]
thad
Re:How about a Hummer instead? (Score:3, Insightful)
Using "environmentally friendly" technology in an SUV is a bit pointless - you know, like painting your coalburning firestation a pleasant shade of green.
Anyway, Ford actually do do some nice cars (Volvo, Jaguar, Aston Martin and (oops) L
Headline is wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0407/31/c01-
"Case in point: Toyota Motor Co.p. and Ford Motor Co.'s new Escape Hybrid SUV. Last March, the companies said they had concluded "licensing agreements for hybrid systems and emissions purification patents" -- lawyerly language that soon gave way to talk that the first hybrid SUV from an American automaker was actually powered by Toyota.
Even if it wasn't. "
Just to point out (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Headline is wrong (Score:2, Interesting)
BTW, although hybrids are the new chic-ness in cool rides (and 15 years ago those same people were all diving for SUVs, but whatever) no one's done a careful analysis of the cost to manufacture the batteries as well dispose of them properly, especially on the scales of 17 million new vehicles sold per year (i
Really energy efficient (Score:4, Insightful)
yes, (Score:4, Funny)
Re:yes, (Score:2)
It's a little more work, but not impossible.
Re:yes, (Score:3, Funny)
Re:yes, (Score:5, Insightful)
I could count on one hand the number of SUVs I see per day that have more than one person in them.
Re:yes, (Score:3, Insightful)
Granted, that is likely
Re:Really energy efficient (Score:3, Insightful)
60 miles per bowl of cereal and two water bottles, but you need a shower/change and a secure place to keep your bike. If I worked within 10 miles of home I'd probably ride every day.
Re:Really energy efficient (Score:2)
Re:Really energy efficient (Score:3, Insightful)
This is probably karma suicide, but....I don't see too many of those cylists. I drive through an area pretty regularly that is a popular biking route and almost everyone is riding side-by-side rather than single file, running through stopsigns without stopping, bla
Re:Really energy efficient (Score:3, Interesting)
everyone is riding side-by-side rather than single file... Are those of us in cars really expected to ride along at 10-15 mph behind a cyclist for 5 or 10 miles?
A bicycle happens to be a slow moving vehicle that is traveling down a public road. Other examples of common slow-moving vehicles are farm-tractors, Amish/Mennonite buggies, construction vehicles, mail-delivery-trucks, garbage trucks, old people, etc. In the
Splendid! (Score:2)
Re:Really energy efficient (Score:2)
The first american hybrid? (Score:4, Informative)
I believe this is the first:
2005 Chevy Silverado Hybrid [gm.com]Re:The first american hybrid? (Score:2)
In other words, it gets 16.5-19.8 mpg. I'm so very impressed at the environmentalists running GM.
Re:The first american hybrid? (Score:3, Informative)
An old joke (Score:4, Funny)
"Found On Road, Drained."
Re:An old joke (Score:3, Funny)
Sounds ideal (Score:5, Interesting)
Since so many people spend so much of their day in stop and go traffic this is a big winner.
Just do the math. When I look at masses of traffic stuck at rush hour I can't help but imagine how many litres of fuel are being burnt while the cars are all but totally stationary for hours on end.
What a stupid waste. Electrical has to be better under those conditions.
Actually, surely it can't be hard to convert? If you had a large battery in a regular car, couldn't you use it to drive the starter motor while in gear and push the car forward slowly without the engine having to be running? (Using the starter motor to jog a car forward saves lives; when you are stalled out while crossing the railway lines for example)
Re:Sounds ideal (Score:2)
Less of a battery size problem and more of a starter motor size one; check out the starter / alternator in your car. Both tiny, tiny, tiny compared to the motive engine.
So once you've made the starter motor big enough, it's a major new component, you have to rearrange the engine compartment, it weighs a lot, your normal engine's low-end characteristics can be changed, etc., etc., - you've almost made a new engine.
Not to say it's not doable - this is what's frequently called a "mild hybrid", (one that can'
Re:Sounds ideal (Score:5, Informative)
You couldn't just wire up a regular starter motor to a bigger battery. They're made to be very powerful for their size, but they'll overheat and wear out if run for long periods.
Not bad but not a Prius (Score:3, Interesting)
My friend's 2004 got 50 MPG on the last long trip I was along for. (That was with three people and all their camping gear, too.) And it does 0-60 in 10 seconds - most diesels are considerably slower.
It also does the 3000+ foot climb over Snoqualmie pass on I-90 without a problem - so that issue is not a real one.
Diesels won't really make sense in the US until after the new low sulfur fuel comes in (a few years away), anyway.
Re:Sounds ideal (Score:3, Informative)
The real loss in fuel isn't in standing (when you are at idle and under 1000 rpm) it's when you are accelerating from all the 'go
Almost first from USA (Score:3, Informative)
General Motors [gm.com] already had a hybrid truck available in the 2004 fleet division, and is releasing it in the public this year, as well. Or you can get a used 2004, but they are rare. Interestingly, the V8 Silverado uses it's motor and battery for idling and coasting, never to propel, so it works out as a trade off between the "fuller" hybrids, with about a 16% milage boost.
Anyone see the MPG? (Score:2)
Re:Anyone see the MPG? (Score:3, Informative)
30 Posts... (Score:4, Informative)
To summarize, residential neighborhoods in California (many places actually, but the author was in California) have inadvertently forbidden large SUV's from driving down thier roads because the SUV exceeds the gross weight limit (6000lbs) that defines a truck.
Now I'm just waiting for a politician with the conjones to enforce this law.
I'll be waiting a very, very, very long time...
Re:30 Posts... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)
That's just wrong. If I lived in the states I'd be furious. As it is, I'm pretty aghast at it.
Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)
There's something wrong with a 160lb person (average) driving a vehicle for day-to-day use that weighs almost 40 times more than they do, unless they are doing so to earn a living (delivery truck, dump truck, etc.). Think about it: this is 6000lbs of raw metal and technology just to haul their lazy ass around town, when a decent sedan is well under 4000lbs and often under 3000lbs.
Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)
Hell, lots of people could use a freaking bicycle, and it would have the benefit of making their fat asses a little less fat!
Re:30 Posts... (Score:3, Informative)
-molo
Good start, but you'll still be stuck in traffic. (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm a big supporter of removing journeys entirely, put everything within walking distance. It's not practical to do on existing cities and would take decades.
In the meantime the solution turns out to be a feature of the Information Revolution, as the Steam engine was a feature of the Industrial Revolution. The application of information technology to transport will solve many of the congestion and environmental problems.
Personal Rapid Transport:
http://www.cprt.org/
A couple of PRT systems:
http://www.skywebexpress.com/
http://www.atslt
meh. (Score:2)
Wasn't there a story on slashdot a while back on how the mileage ratings for hybrid cars were a crock? I read a review of the Escape hybrid in USA Today and they weren't able to get better than 28 mpg highway, which is a whopping 3 mpg better than the non hybrid version.
Hybrid technology may have room to grow, but escape is a ploy to seperate rich, stupid hippies from their money.
Re:meh. (Score:4, Insightful)
Then at the end of their run they calculate the MPG and, OH SURPRISE, it's fairly low.
Strange dynamics here... (Score:5, Interesting)
A collection of thoughts I've developed watching the continuing hybrid saga:
1. Within the American car manufacturers, there's some major problems; particularly, the sheer profitability of their SUVs is just daunting. For about the same marketing / sales / distribution / engineering / raw materials cost as they'd have to expend on your $20k Taurus, they can sell you a $30k+ SUV; it's as if they somehow stumbled onto a means of making suburban moms all buy mid-market luxury cars. Plus they can build it on marginally modified versions of their light truck lines...so don't expect American manufacturers to stop or slow down SUV manufacture anytime soon.
2. That said, I think that Bill Ford is a not-kidding environmentalist. Some of their factories are really leading the way in terms of green building (article here) [greenroofs.org], and he was a prime mover behind this (admittedly belated and somewhat slow) project. Ford has also become a lot more reasonable on climate and emissions issues over even just the past three years. I am a pretty active environmentalist, but I've always much preferred the "pat on the back" to the "too little too late" carping, so thank you, Ford, for giving us all the opportunity to insure ourselves a little better against future fuel supply, national security and global warming uncertainties.
3. The political rhetoric surrounding SUVs on both sides is so disingenuous and heated that you'd think they were talking about guns. There's essentially two positions: 1. Every one of these light trucks is being used by a farmer or contractor, and any attempt to regulate fuel emissions back to, say, early 80's standards will annihilate small business in America and kill thousands of people because our cars will be too small. 2. Every one of these light trucks is being driven by a latte-slugging soccer mom, and unless we triple our CAFE standards in two years, we'll annihlate our economy, and kill thousands of people because our cars will be too big.
4. People talk about fuel cell cars constantly, but here's the thing; a fuel cell car will have to be a highly streamlined, possibly drive-by-wire, light-body device with electronic drive components and regenerative brakes; you get there by developing hybrids, not by skipping them.
5. This is one of those "we have to do it now, even though it won't matter for a while" problems; we have to get our transportation fuel economies up, but new cars alone won't do it. The reason? As cars have become less junky, we actually now turn over our automotive stock fairly slowly; in 2020, people will still be driving their 03s...as a result, incremental fuel economy standards have a sort of marginal impact in any given year.
6. and final. You don't make your money back on a hybrid, even with the tax credits, but if Yukos gets slapped / the Venezuelan labor situation doesn't settle, that could change real quick...or, the other option, I've never understood why no one just started an all-hybrid cab company. The more miles you put in on one of these things, the better your ROI compared to a normal car, and you could even end up with a distinct brand that people would prefer, vs. current commoditized cabs.
Just hoping to spur some discussion...
It is the DRIVER that is unsafe, not the vehicle.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Japan allows much lighter cars than the US, some are somewhere between a Yugo and a scooter. Yet they have 60% of the car crash death rate per 10,000 cars as the US. Overall, Japan has much lighter cars too, because gas isn't cheap there.
Somehow, I'm not convinced that heavy trucks are the solution to accident deaths. John Stossel did a Myth Busters or something that showed that a mid-sized car is about as safe as an SUV. I've found some stats showing that minivans are safer than SUVs. A lot of it has to do with the fact that SUVs get into accidents more often because they have worse braking, worse handling and roll over much more often. Rollovers are also the most deadly kind of accidents too.
Regional Crash Analyses [factbook.net]
Oxymoron? (Score:3, Interesting)
SUV == environement unfriendly
Does a Hydrogen SUV make sense then?
Do we really really need SUVs?
Sue! (Score:3, Insightful)
But seriously, I've wondered how long it'd be until somebody sued an SUV driver for running into them in a car which they bought specifically because it would give them a higher survival rate. I can see the prosecution lawyer now: "Now let me see, you bought this car specifically because you knew it would kill the occupants of the other vehicle, and not your own?"
Anyway, got me thinking again.
Escapism at 36MPG (Score:4, Informative)
That mileage number is the only important number. Hybrids use electric regeneration from the same gasoline tank as the internal combustion engine, so they are not in any way "alternative fuel" vehicles, any more than is the gas guzzling SUV in the next lane. But that guzzler probably gets about 15MPG, so these hybrids are certainly laudable. At $27K, driving 252,000 miles saves enough gas money to pay for the car. Which is about 20 times around the Aelutian Islands / Tierra Del Feugo circuit. Finally a use for that "Intelligent 4WD" SUV.
Re:Escapism at 36MPG (Score:2)
Re:Escapism at 36MPG (Score:2)
6000 pounds? (Score:2)
I read they are now giving tickets for driving these in some parts of California. Anything over 6K is a classified as a truck, and not allowed.
Funny.
Re:6000 pounds? (Score:2)
Also, why make the electric so heavy?
Re:6000 pounds? (Score:2)
Is this just a re-branding? (Score:2)
So, is this just a re-branding for the American market? We have seen this before...
I'll take a VW diesel, thanks. (Score:5, Informative)
If you're worried about emissions, run it on biodiesel [veggievan.org]. Now you've closed the carbon loop, and are running on a 100% renewable resource. Even hybrids can't make that claim.
In comparison, hybrids just seem to me like a solution in search of a problem.
Good Thing (Score:5, Informative)
I work for Ford. I'm an engineer there. I'm proud to be there. And this is a fine achievement (among others!). Here in Michigan, the auto industry is everything -- you grow up indoctrinated to it. My first two cars were pieces of crap -- Fords. This being the mid 80's. My next two cars were Hondas. I still have NO complaints about any automobile that Honda produces. For their price range, they were the best cars I've ever owned.
But Ford -- as well as the other major "American" manufacturer GM -- has come a long way in quality and innovation. The Escape hybrid is evidence of innovation. The awards the Focus (a "low end, you get what you pay for type of car") has received indicates our quality has improved to the world class level.
I'm going to get modded overrated -- so be it. But this article is the perfect opportunity to express the PRIDE that I finally have in an American automobile company. Yeah, my post could be regarded as a commercial, but remember, "I'm a customer, too."
Hybrids can use HOV lane (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ehh... SUV? Why not a car? (Score:2)
It's a big fuel consuming road hog.
Well... 36 mpg, the ability to carry a relatively large amount of stuff, comfortable seating positions... why not an SUV?
Why not start smaller, and say, affordable for like a 2/4 door sedan or compact car for those "younger" types that are -hopefully- more interested in environmental concerns?
Have you noticed cars like the Insight and Prius before, perchance?
I say, "Good on yer Ford." Here is an application of technology that improves a product that peo
Re:Scary article at the end of the submission.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Opinionated as that article may be, there is a good point. No one is saying get rid of SUVs. But they do cause greater damage to roads than a smaller car, and as such they should have to compensate for that somehow... whether that be by not driving on those streets or by paying a higher tax.
You can't have your cake and eat it too... either take the tax cut, and avoid driving by my already pot-holed street or pay
Re:Scary article at the end of the submission.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have to say, as a (very new) rescue technician and EMT, that it's not just your decision to drive that SUV - because you're driving it in a community full of other people.
It's when you're riding 60 mph in a 25,000 lb truck, the wrong way down the Beltway, in order to shove yourself through shattered glass and twisted metal and jaws-of-life some blood-spattered libertarian out from under his dashboard (and bag up the kids in the Focus that he killed,) that you begin to wish that people had actually read t
Re:Scary article at the end of the submission.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, the l
Re:Scary article at the end of the submission.... (Score:4, Insightful)
It's no accident the automakers churn out so many SUVs that break the 6K barrier. By doing so, these "trucks" (and that's how they're classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation) qualify for a huge federal tax break. If you claim you use a 3-ton truck exclusively for work, you can write it off immediately. All of it. Up to $100,000 (in fact, Congress raised the limit from $25,000 just last year). Heavy SUVs qualify for similar state tax breaks in California (up to $25,000) and elsewhere. These vehicles are also exempt from the federal "gas guzzler tax" because they're trucks. (And you probably know that many SUVs are exempt from the tougher gas mileage and safety standards of cars because they're classified as trucks, but that's another story.)
Tax advisers actually warn their clients to make sure they buy vehicles that are heavy enough to qualify for the tax breaks. Some offer helpful lists of which SUVs will tip the IRS's scales.
(California's Legislative Analyst's Office estimates the average L.A. driver pays $700 a year in vehicle repairs because of crummy roads.) Yet despite the increased road wear their vehicles cause, heavy SUV owners can take tax breaks that mean they pony up much less to the tax system that funds street maintenance.
As it stands now, big-SUV drivers have it both ways: They use their trucklike status when it benefits them, yet they ignore the more onerous restrictions that "real" truck drivers face.
So you can buy a monster truck/SUV if you want to, no problem, but you damn well better pay the same taxes I do to buy a vehicle, and you damn well better pay far, far more toward road repair than I do. And that is the common sense that most people seem to lack.
Re:diesels get better MPG but burn a lot dirtier (Score:2)
The diesel engines put out more emissions per gallon, due in part to generally not having a catalytic convertor, but also combusting at different temperatures - more soot, etc. CO2 you're ahead, but in terms of NOx, PM, and (possibly) SOx, you end up behind.
Re:Not to start a political discussion but ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Kerry: we need to look into alternate fuel sources
Bush: we need to explore Alaska for more oil services.
I'm not making this up
Re:Not to start a political discussion but ... (Score:3, Funny)
Kerry: We need to talk to our friends and allies in OPEC
Bush: We need to talk to our friends and allies in OPEC
Re:Not to start a political discussion but ... (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you kidding?
No. You're not.
Oh my.
Wait, I'd expect this from an AC, but you're logged in.
That's the most humiliating thing I've ever seen.
Really.