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Technology

Ford Launches First American Hybrid 635

Posted by michael from the just-for-timothy dept.
Ford has finally rolled out their Escape hybrid SUV. Ford's website has more information. Ford will use Toyota's first-generation hybrid technology in the SUV (the 2004 Prius is Toyota's second generation technology). Best of all, the Escape is street-legal in residential areas. Update: 08/06 22:31 GMT by M : A reader points out that GM will be selling a hybrid pickup soon, but it isn't available for sale to the public yet, so Ford is still the first.
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Ford Launches First American Hybrid More

Ford Launches First American Hybrid

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  • Bravo to Ford for having the balls to introduce a hybrid car, even if it is an old generation lacking the refinements of newer systems.

    Perhaps now the trend of ever increasing oil use in the USA and elsewhere can be reversed.

    • Its not a car, its an SUV. This is something that I just dont understand.

      Why release a hybrid SUV? I am willing to bet that most people that would be interested in a hybrid vehicle would not want something that big. If I wanted a fuel-efficient hybrid car, I'd want something that didnt have to heave around 3000lbs of weight. It just seems like the "hybrid" and the "SUV" just cancel each other out.
      • "Why release a hybrid SUV?"

        I'd venture that some folks--like myself--that would be interested in a hybrid vehicle, might live in places that *nearly* require a four wheel drive vehicle during certain (seemingly endless) times of year.
        Right now, I'm forced by my financial situation to drive a light, front-wheel drive car. Once winter hits, I loathe the thought of even having to cross this town (which NEVER plows their *#$@! streets) with my wife and infant in a puny front-wheel drive vehicle... Let alone d
      • Because its a 15% fuel effciency gain which is not bad at all. Heck why not get the crazy people that drive military grade vehicles to commute to work to use less gas? Better than building some little thing that rarely anyone will drive. If noone drives the effcient cars then what does it matter that they get 75mpg when people would rather drive 15mpg monsters. At least if those monsters get 19mpg (thats aboutw what they should be at if I remember) we still save that 4mpg and since maybe more people would d

      • Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:4, Insightful)

        by GedConk ( 778704 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:00PM (#9904401)
        I'd say the SUV is probably one of the best market to implement a hybrid system.

        1-SUV are gaz guzzlers.
        2-Americans (and Canadians and many others for that matter) buy lots of SUV. Those customers are unlikely to switch to a prius or a civic, at least in the short term. SUV are more popular than ever.
        3-30% better fuel economy in a SUV results in bigger fuel savings than in a small car on an absolute scale.
        4-The added weight and size of the batteries matter less in a SUV than in a car because the SUV is bigger and heavier.
        5-The price premium of the hybrid system is less of a deterrent to SUV buyers because they save more fuel (in absolute terms) and because SUV are tipically more expensive vehicules.

        So, I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy a Hummer, I'm saying that people will not realistically give up their SUV any time soon. Since they won't mind as much paying the premium for an hybrid system, then they are a very good market.

        Also, it pays for the R&D, which in turn will improve the performance of the hybrid systems and hopefully reduce the price.

        To me, a hybrid SUV is a great short term compromise.
    • ...but perhaps it can be slowed. That would buy us a little more time.

    • Re:Nice to see a few less gallons consumed (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Every time I see one of these articles about alternate feul sources for cars, or ways to make cars more efficient as a way to reduce our dependency on fossil feuls, I can't help but think that we're really missing the point. The depletion of our natural resources is just one symptom of the much larger problem of a society built for cars, and it's time we stopped looking for a way to make cars more efficient, and started looking for a way to reduce our dependency on cars in general.

      Currently, suburban spra
    • But if we start conserving, the environmentalists win!

  • wow a hybrid that doesn't look like it (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Cat_Byte ( 621676 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:18PM (#9904033) Journal
    At least it doesn't look weird like those hybrid cars with half the rear wheels covered by the outer body.
  • My mom needed a new car, and being an enviromentalist in a snowy area, she wanted the Escape. The only problem is that the waiting list for any Escape was 9 months- not counting customized options. Would be nice if they improved their production, because it looks like people want big cars that do not require $80 to fill the gas tank.

    • You will never earn back the cost in gasoline. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Shivetya ( 243324 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @09:34PM (#9906037) Homepage Journal
      So while it may look better to not have to put $80 dollars in gas into the car weekly it is only because you prepaid it through the premium of buying a hybrid car.

      Until they cost the same as a similarly equipped vehicle these only are good for CAFE and feeling good about yourself (while ignoring the obvious fact you lost money on the deal)

      • Exactly (Score:3, Informative)

        by YrWrstNtmr ( 564987 )
        I did this eval a couple of years ago when I was looking for a new car. Updating this, using published numbers (cost and gas mileage) from edmunds.com, using essentially identical cars, the 2004 Honda Civic and Civic Hybrid, and todays gas price of $1.81...the Hybrid only actually saves money after 450,000 miles. With city driving figures, it equals out at 190,000 miles.

        That $4,000 price premium buys a LOT of gas.

        Of course this ignores any maintenance costs, which are probably higher for the hybrid (batte

    • Re:Increased production would be a good idea (Score:5, Insightful)

      by HermanAB ( 661181 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @10:05PM (#9906229)
      Buy your mom a diesel VW Golf. Better value for money and much better mileage than the expensive hybrids.

  • Why a Ford at all? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:19PM (#9904039)
    Why not just get a Toyota to begin with. Chances are it's cheaper and doesn't fall apart after 6 years...
    • Some people like to perfer domestic products. When applying that heuristic to car selection, they sometimes get mocked by know-it-alls, but I'm not sure why. I've found that domestic cars are reliable, well-made and attractive... IN JAPAN!

  • Alright! (Score:5, Funny)

    by cephyn ( 461066 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:19PM (#9904041) Homepage
    A new car with old technology from another manufacturer! Sweet! I can't wait!

    What's the damn point? I could just buy a used prius.

    • Re:Alright! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Alkaiser ( 114022 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:24PM (#9904071) Homepage
      Because this is an SUV. It has the power to kill the driver of a normal sized car, something you can't say for the Prius.

      Plus you get to not see stuff in your rearview mirror accurately and totally run into other cars in the parking lot.

    • Re:Alright! (Score:2, Insightful)

      by foetusinc ( 766466 )
      The point is to have a hybrid that isn't fugly. And has AWD for those of us that want to go skiing without borrowing our friends Subaru.

    • Re:Alright! (Score:5, Interesting)

      by psetzer ( 714543 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:32PM (#9904156)
      The Insight can hold a grand total of two people, and it's still pretty small. The Prius is bigger, but it is still a fairly small car. What I'd like to see is a Crown Victoria with hybrid and reasonable performance, so all the Taxis and Police can switch over. I don't doubt that such an act would really reduce air pollution and would save a good bit of money. Perhaps Ford's next plan is to offer fleet vehicles set up like that.

      • Re:Alright! (Score:4, Informative)

        by 0biJon ( 593687 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:39PM (#9904215)
        Most Crown Vitorias used by taxis and police are hybrids... that is, natural gas conversions. They are capable of running on gasoline and cleaner natural gas. It would be nice to see gas-electric hybrids though.
      • Police officer vehicles are exempt from emissions laws in California. At least in Sacramento, the police cars don't even have catalytic converters.

  • Let's hope it's price isn't too steep... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by zoloto ( 586738 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:20PM (#9904045)
    .. because I'd love to buy one of these. The only thing americans wont buy this for in many cases is the higher price.

    • Decent price (Score:2, Informative)

      by lothar97 ( 768215 ) *
      Base MSRP is $19,855, for manual transmission. Since no one in the US drives manual (except me it seems), I suspect $21,000 to start for most people.

      • Re:Decent price (Score:5, Informative)

        by phidipides ( 59938 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:46PM (#9904265) Homepage
        >Base MSRP is $19,855, for manual transmission.
        >Since no one in the US drives manual (except me
        >it seems), I suspect $21,000 to start for most
        >people.

        Ford's web site - http://fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/index.as p?bhcp=1 [fordvehicles.com] says $26,970 for front wheel drive, $28,595 for four-wheel drive. Where did you get your numbers from?

        It would be nice to see the government provide more tax credits to encourage use of these vehicles (less pollution, encourage new technology development, less gas use leading to less reliance on middle east oil, etc), but the existing credits are set to expire soon [ucsusa.org]. Meanwhile Bush wants to drill in Alaska [mountaininterval.org] for a minimal oil supply, but that's another story...

    • The only thing americans wont buy this for in many cases is the higher price.

      Are you kidding? Half the draw of SUVs (to the idiots who buy them) is the bragging rights: "Yeah, I ponied up $48K for this monster. Worth every penny, though, every time I intimidate the compact in front of me on the highway into moving over to the next lane. All it takes is to follow them closely enough that you can't get a ping-pong ball between the bumpers." The more expensive it is, the more they'll like it. Sick bast

    • I don't know about the Escape, but the Toyota Prius isn't much more expensive than a similar non-hybrid toyota, especially once you take out the $2000 tax credit for owning a low-emission vehicle (although I heard they might have changed the relevant tax law, does anyone have more info on that? If they did, it seems sort of asinine.)

      I actually would have gotten a Prius last year, but they were completely sold out in the Chicagoland area. There wasn't a single new Prius to be had for 6-8 months. That's w
  • If anyone wants to create a fansite like Hybrid Cars [hybridcars.com], the domains fordescapehybrid.* and escapehybrid.* are still available.

    [sound of crickets chirping]

  • Still waiting for the Lexus 400h (Score:4, Insightful)

    by hadesan ( 664029 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:22PM (#9904064)
    I would rather go for the Lexus 400h [lexus.com] with all the trimmings and Hybrid Synergy Drive system. The HSD System will also be found in the Toyota Highlander Hyrid.

    Toyota has been in the hybrid game longer than Ford and is licensing it's technology to Ford. My take is that Toyota will know how to implement it better.

    • Ford licences the technology, it doesn't develop it from scratch. There are probably 2 or 3 car manufacturers that are actively persuing hybrid drive systems. The rest prefer to buy results.

      While it may stifle some potential better designs, it makes the job of a car mechanic much less complicated.
    • It turns out that both the Prius and Ford Escape hybrid transaxles (the heart and soul of the car) are made by the same company, Aisin.

      So, Ford actually will benefit from the years of Prius experience, to some extent.

      Ford also cross-licensed the Toyota hybrid patents.

      [disclaimer: I just bought two Priuses -- I love the car!]

      thad

  • Headline is wrong (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Bodero ( 136806 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:23PM (#9904070)
    Ford did NOT "use Toyota's first-generation hybrid technology" in the Escape hybrid, as the headline points out. They merely "licensed" the patent that Toyota has on it.


    http://www.detnews.com/2004/insiders/0407/31/c01-2 15227.htm [detnews.com]

    "Case in point: Toyota Motor Co.p. and Ford Motor Co.'s new Escape Hybrid SUV. Last March, the companies said they had concluded "licensing agreements for hybrid systems and emissions purification patents" -- lawyerly language that soon gave way to talk that the first hybrid SUV from an American automaker was actually powered by Toyota.

    Even if it wasn't. "

    • Just to point out (Score:5, Interesting)

      by geekoid ( 135745 ) <`moc.oohay' `ta' `dnaltropnidad'> on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:28PM (#9904107) Homepage Journal
      The auto industry licenses technology from each other all the time. Not really a big deal. A much bigger deal is that many of the hybrid don't get the effiency they claim.
    • Dang, you beat me to it. I read DetNews Auto section every day and went nuts when I saw the slashdot headline. I also found this [bloomberg.com] over at Bloomberg by Doron Levin (an editor over at detnews as well).

      BTW, although hybrids are the new chic-ness in cool rides (and 15 years ago those same people were all diving for SUVs, but whatever) no one's done a careful analysis of the cost to manufacture the batteries as well dispose of them properly, especially on the scales of 17 million new vehicles sold per year (i

  • Really energy efficient (Score:4, Insightful)

    by navegan ( 775416 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:24PM (#9904073)
    If you really want an energy-efficient sports utility vehicle, try a bicycle.

    • yes, (Score:4, Funny)

      by geekoid ( 135745 ) <`moc.oohay' `ta' `dnaltropnidad'> on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:25PM (#9904085) Homepage Journal
      becasue it's easy to take your dog, 3 kids, and pull you boat from a Bike.
      • OK, then... get a kayak. The Chihuahua can easily fit inside. One kid on the front handelbar carrier, one on the back carrier, and the smallest in the Baby Bjorn.

        It's a little more work, but not impossible.

      • Re:yes, (Score:3, Funny)

        by morcheeba ( 260908 ) *
        You're not using the right bike [precisiontandems.com] -- put those kids to work, and you can tow a boat [vespoli.com] easily!

      • Re:yes, (Score:5, Insightful)

        by bcboy ( 4794 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:10PM (#9904503) Homepage
        becasue it's easy to take your dog, 3 kids, and pull you boat from a Bike.

        I could count on one hand the number of SUVs I see per day that have more than one person in them.
    • If you really want an energy-efficient sports utility vehicle, try a bicycle.

      60 miles per bowl of cereal and two water bottles, but you need a shower/change and a secure place to keep your bike. If I worked within 10 miles of home I'd probably ride every day.

      • How much does a bowl of cereal cost in your area?
    • I'm sure it will do wonderfully on my 100 mile round trip commute.
    • Yeah, they're great when it snows. And when it rains. Lots of fun on the freeway too. Plus your boss will just love it when you show up to work dripping with sweat.

  • The first american hybrid? (Score:4, Informative)

    by Eric Clark ( 562 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:25PM (#9904083)

    I believe this is the first:

    2005 Chevy Silverado Hybrid [gm.com]
    • From the parent's link.

      The hybrid pickups feature GM's powerful 5300 Vortec V-8 and Hydra-Matic 4L60-E four-speed automatic transmission, coupled with a new hybrid technology that delivers 10 to 12 percent improved fuel economy over GM half-ton pickups, giving the hybrid Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra the best highway fuel economy of any full-size truck on the market.

      In other words, it gets 16.5-19.8 mpg. I'm so very impressed at the environmentalists running GM.

      • The GM was sold as a fleet vehicle aimed at construction companies. It featured standard power plugs in the bed of the truck for tools that would run off the hybrid batteries. That was more of the sales pitch than the actual "green" factor.

  • An old joke (Score:4, Funny)

    by daeley ( 126313 ) * on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:25PM (#9904084) Homepage
    Guess we need to update the old acronym:

    "Found On Road, Drained."

  • Sounds ideal (Score:5, Interesting)

    by myowntrueself ( 607117 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:26PM (#9904094)
    "The hybrid Escape uses a 200-pound, 330-volt battery pack to power the vehicle at low speeds and in stop-and-go traffic."

    Since so many people spend so much of their day in stop and go traffic this is a big winner.

    Just do the math. When I look at masses of traffic stuck at rush hour I can't help but imagine how many litres of fuel are being burnt while the cars are all but totally stationary for hours on end.

    What a stupid waste. Electrical has to be better under those conditions.

    Actually, surely it can't be hard to convert? If you had a large battery in a regular car, couldn't you use it to drive the starter motor while in gear and push the car forward slowly without the engine having to be running? (Using the starter motor to jog a car forward saves lives; when you are stalled out while crossing the railway lines for example)

    • Less of a battery size problem and more of a starter motor size one; check out the starter / alternator in your car. Both tiny, tiny, tiny compared to the motive engine.

      So once you've made the starter motor big enough, it's a major new component, you have to rearrange the engine compartment, it weighs a lot, your normal engine's low-end characteristics can be changed, etc., etc., - you've almost made a new engine.

      Not to say it's not doable - this is what's frequently called a "mild hybrid", (one that can'

    • Re:Sounds ideal (Score:5, Informative)

      by homer_ca ( 144738 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:47PM (#9904271)
      Hybrids are very efficient in heavy stop and go traffic, but not much better than a regular car on long freeway trips. A diesel would be better for that. The VW TDI gets over 40MPG freeway. The extra power from the electric motor is good for accelerating from stop lights, but if you're climbing a long highway mountain pass, the battery never has a chance to recharge and you're left with just the power from a somewhat undersized gas engine.

      You couldn't just wire up a regular starter motor to a bigger battery. They're made to be very powerful for their size, but they'll overheat and wear out if run for long periods.

      • Not bad but not a Prius (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ibi ( 61235 )
        40? Not bad but not comparable to a Prius.

        My friend's 2004 got 50 MPG on the last long trip I was along for. (That was with three people and all their camping gear, too.) And it does 0-60 in 10 seconds - most diesels are considerably slower.

        It also does the 3000+ foot climb over Snoqualmie pass on I-90 without a problem - so that issue is not a real one.

        Diesels won't really make sense in the US until after the new low sulfur fuel comes in (a few years away), anyway.

    • Re:Sounds ideal (Score:3, Informative)

      by ramk13 ( 570633 )
      The starter motor is just too small, and definitely not designed for continuous operation. If you re-engineered it, so the motor could handle continuous operation, and you put in a bigger battery, then you'd be halfway to hybrid already. In which case you'd go all the way, because the half-breed would be overkill for starting, but not big enough to make a real dent in fuel usage.

      The real loss in fuel isn't in standing (when you are at idle and under 1000 rpm) it's when you are accelerating from all the 'go

  • Almost first from USA (Score:3, Informative)

    by ChozCunningham ( 698051 ) <slashdot,org&chozcunningham,com> on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:30PM (#9904131) Homepage
    Ford claims this is the first US Hybrid. Kudos for making a hybrid that looks lie a "real car".

    General Motors [gm.com] already had a hybrid truck available in the 2004 fleet division, and is releasing it in the public this year, as well. Or you can get a used 2004, but they are rare. Interestingly, the V8 Silverado uses it's motor and battery for idling and coasting, never to propel, so it works out as a trade off between the "fuller" hybrids, with about a 16% milage boost.

  • I'm not seeing it. They do cliam 400+ miles on a tank but they don't say how much the tank holds.

  • 30 Posts... (Score:4, Informative)

    by SnapShot ( 171582 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:33PM (#9904159)
    About 30 posts and no one has mentioned the Slate article. That had to be the funniest thing I've read in a while.

    To summarize, residential neighborhoods in California (many places actually, but the author was in California) have inadvertently forbidden large SUV's from driving down thier roads because the SUV exceeds the gross weight limit (6000lbs) that defines a truck.

    Now I'm just waiting for a politician with the conjones to enforce this law.

    I'll be waiting a very, very, very long time...

    • Re:30 Posts... (Score:3, Informative)

      by Sparr0 ( 451780 )
      i never made the connection here either. im going to start calling the cops when i see the big SUVs on those streets. we have some of them here in TN too, and I dont see it as any different from calling in a noise complaint.

    • Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dixie_Flatline ( 5077 ) * <vincent,jan,goh&gmail,com> on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:10PM (#9904505) Homepage
      I think the most important part of the story is that people are trying to play both ends against the middle. On one hand, they're buying vehicles over 6000lbs ON PURPOSE for the tax break. When they're told that they can't drive a vehicle that large on the road, they claim that the gross weight may vary by a bit, and their vehicle is just slightly UNDER 6000lbs. So, the people that do the MOST damage to the roads are getting a tax break for it!

      That's just wrong. If I lived in the states I'd be furious. As it is, I'm pretty aghast at it.

    • Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by upsidedown_duck ( 788782 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:33PM (#9904755)

      There's something wrong with a 160lb person (average) driving a vehicle for day-to-day use that weighs almost 40 times more than they do, unless they are doing so to earn a living (delivery truck, dump truck, etc.). Think about it: this is 6000lbs of raw metal and technology just to haul their lazy ass around town, when a decent sedan is well under 4000lbs and often under 3000lbs.

      • Re:30 Posts... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mrchaotica ( 681592 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:57PM (#9904955)
        Screw 4000lb sedans, most people need nothing more than a Smart car, or at the most, a Hyundai Accent (~2300lbs). They get along fine in Europe like that, anyway.

        Hell, lots of people could use a freaking bicycle, and it would have the benefit of making their fat asses a little less fat!

    • Re:30 Posts... (Score:3, Informative)

      by molo ( 94384 )
      Neat article. Inspried me to check my locality. Palo Alto, CA has a 7-ton "truck" classification. Maybe I can at least get the busses off my street then. Oh well.

      -molo

  • Good start, but you'll still be stuck in traffic. (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Moderation abuser ( 184013 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:33PM (#9904163)
    The problem has to be re-thought entirely.

    I'm a big supporter of removing journeys entirely, put everything within walking distance. It's not practical to do on existing cities and would take decades.

    In the meantime the solution turns out to be a feature of the Information Revolution, as the Steam engine was a feature of the Industrial Revolution. The application of information technology to transport will solve many of the congestion and environmental problems.

    Personal Rapid Transport:

    http://www.cprt.org/

    A couple of PRT systems:

    http://www.skywebexpress.com/
    http://www.atsltd .co.uk/


  • Wasn't there a story on slashdot a while back on how the mileage ratings for hybrid cars were a crock? I read a review of the Escape hybrid in USA Today and they weren't able to get better than 28 mpg highway, which is a whopping 3 mpg better than the non hybrid version.

    Hybrid technology may have room to grow, but escape is a ploy to seperate rich, stupid hippies from their money.

    • Re:meh. (Score:4, Insightful)

      by MikeCapone ( 693319 ) <[skelterhell] [at] [yahoo.com]> on Friday August 06, 2004 @06:13PM (#9904537) Homepage Journal
      Did the car reviewer also review the normal one they compared it to or just took the number from literature? I found that in pretty much ALL car reviews they get lower than sticker MPG because it's not their car and they drive it pedal to the floor and try to "test performance" instead of saving fuel.

      Then at the end of their run they calculate the MPG and, OH SURPRISE, it's fairly low.

  • Strange dynamics here... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by WOV ( 652967 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:36PM (#9904195)

    A collection of thoughts I've developed watching the continuing hybrid saga:

    1. Within the American car manufacturers, there's some major problems; particularly, the sheer profitability of their SUVs is just daunting. For about the same marketing / sales / distribution / engineering / raw materials cost as they'd have to expend on your $20k Taurus, they can sell you a $30k+ SUV; it's as if they somehow stumbled onto a means of making suburban moms all buy mid-market luxury cars. Plus they can build it on marginally modified versions of their light truck lines...so don't expect American manufacturers to stop or slow down SUV manufacture anytime soon.

    2. That said, I think that Bill Ford is a not-kidding environmentalist. Some of their factories are really leading the way in terms of green building (article here) [greenroofs.org], and he was a prime mover behind this (admittedly belated and somewhat slow) project. Ford has also become a lot more reasonable on climate and emissions issues over even just the past three years. I am a pretty active environmentalist, but I've always much preferred the "pat on the back" to the "too little too late" carping, so thank you, Ford, for giving us all the opportunity to insure ourselves a little better against future fuel supply, national security and global warming uncertainties.

    3. The political rhetoric surrounding SUVs on both sides is so disingenuous and heated that you'd think they were talking about guns. There's essentially two positions: 1. Every one of these light trucks is being used by a farmer or contractor, and any attempt to regulate fuel emissions back to, say, early 80's standards will annihilate small business in America and kill thousands of people because our cars will be too small. 2. Every one of these light trucks is being driven by a latte-slugging soccer mom, and unless we triple our CAFE standards in two years, we'll annihlate our economy, and kill thousands of people because our cars will be too big.

    4. People talk about fuel cell cars constantly, but here's the thing; a fuel cell car will have to be a highly streamlined, possibly drive-by-wire, light-body device with electronic drive components and regenerative brakes; you get there by developing hybrids, not by skipping them.

    5. This is one of those "we have to do it now, even though it won't matter for a while" problems; we have to get our transportation fuel economies up, but new cars alone won't do it. The reason? As cars have become less junky, we actually now turn over our automotive stock fairly slowly; in 2020, people will still be driving their 03s...as a result, incremental fuel economy standards have a sort of marginal impact in any given year.

    6. and final. You don't make your money back on a hybrid, even with the tax credits, but if Yukos gets slapped / the Venezuelan labor situation doesn't settle, that could change real quick...or, the other option, I've never understood why no one just started an all-hybrid cab company. The more miles you put in on one of these things, the better your ROI compared to a normal car, and you could even end up with a distinct brand that people would prefer, vs. current commoditized cabs.

    Just hoping to spur some discussion...

    • It is the DRIVER that is unsafe, not the vehicle.. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Jeff DeMaagd ( 2015 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @07:59PM (#9905423) Homepage Journal


      Japan allows much lighter cars than the US, some are somewhere between a Yugo and a scooter. Yet they have 60% of the car crash death rate per 10,000 cars as the US. Overall, Japan has much lighter cars too, because gas isn't cheap there.

      Somehow, I'm not convinced that heavy trucks are the solution to accident deaths. John Stossel did a Myth Busters or something that showed that a mid-sized car is about as safe as an SUV. I've found some stats showing that minivans are safer than SUVs. A lot of it has to do with the fact that SUVs get into accidents more often because they have worse braking, worse handling and roll over much more often. Rollovers are also the most deadly kind of accidents too.

      Regional Crash Analyses [factbook.net]

  • Oxymoron? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by otisg ( 92803 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:38PM (#9904206) Homepage Journal
    hydrogen == supposedly more environment friendly
    SUV == environement unfriendly

    Does a Hydrogen SUV make sense then?
    Do we really really need SUVs?

  • Sue! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Sean80 ( 567340 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:38PM (#9904208)
    The poster's last link really got me thinking. Imagine you get hit by one of these monsters on a street where it's not actually legal for them to be driving? Sounds like a mighty big lawsuit waiting to happen to me, particularly if it, er, explodes in a large hydrogen explosion. Kidding.

    But seriously, I've wondered how long it'd be until somebody sued an SUV driver for running into them in a car which they bought specifically because it would give them a higher survival rate. I can see the prosecution lawyer now: "Now let me see, you bought this car specifically because you knew it would kill the occupants of the other vehicle, and not your own?"

    Anyway, got me thinking again.

  • Escapism at 36MPG (Score:4, Informative)

    by Doc Ruby ( 173196 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:38PM (#9904210) Homepage Journal
    None of the articles, or the Escape website itself, report the actual mileage of the hybrid SUV. Their Fuel Cost Savings Calculator [fordvehicles.com] touts mileage that will "exceed 35MPG", which turns out to be 36MPG. Any comparison to a user's current mileage over 35MPG reports that relative costs compare "quite favorably", even when the Escape has to beat 72MPG or more (double the Escape's mileage, for the arithmetic impaired). Trying current several mileages around 30MPG reports a consistent $2778:y for 100,000mi @$1.00:gallon in the Escape, which is 36MPG [google.com]. Their mileage figures are "preliminary estimates of EPA certification", so the actual number is "YMMV".

    That mileage number is the only important number. Hybrids use electric regeneration from the same gasoline tank as the internal combustion engine, so they are not in any way "alternative fuel" vehicles, any more than is the gas guzzling SUV in the next lane. But that guzzler probably gets about 15MPG, so these hybrids are certainly laudable. At $27K, driving 252,000 miles saves enough gas money to pay for the car. Which is about 20 times around the Aelutian Islands / Tierra Del Feugo circuit. Finally a use for that "Intelligent 4WD" SUV.
    • notice how they're carefully saying 36 in the city only? I wonder how well that little 2.3 liter v4 does chugging along on its own on the freeway. I'll have to keep wondering since I didn't see it listed anywhere.
    • My Expedition is getting about 12.5MPG, mostly highway [California stop'n'go]. I can get 15MPG if I drive on cruise control at 55MPH and have a trailer behind me.
  • So this truck at 6800 pounds is too heavy to drive on most streets legally in california. ;)

    I read they are now giving tickets for driving these in some parts of California. Anything over 6K is a classified as a truck, and not allowed.

    Funny.

  • Ford will use Toyota's first-generation hybrid technology in the SUV (the 2004 Prius is Toyota's second generation technology).

    So, is this just a re-branding for the American market? We have seen this before...

  • I'll take a VW diesel, thanks. (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rikardon ( 116190 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @05:58PM (#9904382)
    Honestly, I just don't get the hype over hybrids. A Jetta turbo diesel gets comparable mileage [edmunds.com], is a larger, more comfortable, more powerful car, and presents no extraordinary risk to emergency services [wtkr.com] trying to free you in an accident.

    If you're worried about emissions, run it on biodiesel [veggievan.org]. Now you've closed the carbon loop, and are running on a 100% renewable resource. Even hybrids can't make that claim.

    In comparison, hybrids just seem to me like a solution in search of a problem.

  • Good Thing (Score:5, Informative)

    by Balthisar ( 649688 ) on Friday August 06, 2004 @07:55PM (#9905395) Homepage
    There's a commercial for a large supplier airing locally here in the Detroit area whose mantra is, "I'm a customer, too." This really ought to be Ford's tagline.

    I work for Ford. I'm an engineer there. I'm proud to be there. And this is a fine achievement (among others!). Here in Michigan, the auto industry is everything -- you grow up indoctrinated to it. My first two cars were pieces of crap -- Fords. This being the mid 80's. My next two cars were Hondas. I still have NO complaints about any automobile that Honda produces. For their price range, they were the best cars I've ever owned.

    But Ford -- as well as the other major "American" manufacturer GM -- has come a long way in quality and innovation. The Escape hybrid is evidence of innovation. The awards the Focus (a "low end, you get what you pay for type of car") has received indicates our quality has improved to the world class level.

    I'm going to get modded overrated -- so be it. But this article is the perfect opportunity to express the PRIDE that I finally have in an American automobile company. Yeah, my post could be regarded as a commercial, but remember, "I'm a customer, too."

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