The Browser Wars Are Back? 634
jpkunst writes "ZDNet UK reports and PCWorld.com report that, according to Netscape founder Marc Andreessen, whose comments came during a discussion with Yahoo Chief Operating Officer Dan Rosensweig at the Web 2.0 Conference in San Francisco on Wednesday, 'the browser wars are back', thanks to the emerging popularity of products such as Apple's Safari and the open-source Firefox. Andreessen warned that 'competition could compel the company [Microsoft] to use aggressive tactics to protect its Windows operating system monopoly'."
opera (Score:3, Interesting)
being left out of the browser wars. I like my
mouse gesture enabled browser thak you very much.
Re:opera (Score:5, Informative)
Three Words (Score:5, Informative)
Three more (more accurate) words... (Score:3, Informative)
There's a Google ads-supported free version of Opera and a paid for ad-free version. Either way, you've got a damn good browser, arguably the best one around.
A great deal of the features that FireFox users rave about came from Opera, and every version brings even more innovation. It's even smaller and faster than FireFox too (IIRC.)
And, before someone starts saying that its UI takes up too much screen space, let me just say that the default interface in the latest version is tiny (and, of cours
Re:Three more (more accurate) words... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Three more (more accurate) words... (Score:5, Informative)
There's a Google ads-supported free version of Opera and a paid for ad-free version. Either way, you've got a damn good browser
I wouldn't call something with an annoying, distracting animation in the corner of my eye all the time to be a damn good browser.
(And I have a legitimate license for Opera).
About the only website that the current version Opera has a problem with is Gmail, because of all its weird code, and even then there are simple workarounds for that.
It was my understanding that it was because Opera lacked the XMLHTTPRequest object, which isn't "weird" and can't be worked around.
So, to recap, Opera is a smaller, faster, more feature-packed browser that's on the cutting edge.
Smaller and faster? Not in my experience. More feature-packed? You haven't actually listed any features it has that its competitors do not. You've focussed on trying to rebut criticisms against it instead of talking about what it can actually do that other browsers can't.
Stability (Score:5, Interesting)
My main dislike of it? It was unstable as hell.
At that time, Mozilla was massively bloated. From what I've heard, and experienced, Firefox is much closer to Opera in terms of size and speed than the Mozilla of old, and it's *damn stable*.
Re:Three more (more accurate) words... (Score:3, Insightful)
For the record, I use Safari, which boots and runs faster than Firefox in my experience and looks better, although on occasion does not render correctly. My only major wish is for mime-type behavior control. Of course, it's mac-only.
I tried Opera once and while I don't recall the details, I remember not being impressed with performance or stability. I jus
Re:Three Words (Score:3, Insightful)
It also isn't open-source which is kind of important to a lot of people here.
Re:Three Words (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Three Words (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Three Words (Score:3, Interesting)
1. Opera eats memory almost as bad as Windows XP does.
2. Opera is slow.
3. Opera has that stupid ad.
4. Opera isn't open source.
5. Opera isn't as well-supported as Firefox.
6. Opera is ugly.
7. Opera is annoying to use--Firefox has a much better interface. Simple is good.
IMO Firefox/Safari are by far the best browsers out--I've tried many others and nothing really comes close. Including Opera. In fact, I'd put IE abov
Re:opera (Score:5, Informative)
there's nothing opera-specific about mouse enabled gestures.
here it is for OS X, supporting all major browsers and many other apps:
http://www.bitart.com/CocoaGestures.html [bitart.com]
Cocoa Gestures adds mouse gestures to any Cocoa program such as Mail, Address Book, iCal, TextEdit, Safari, Chimera, OmniWeb, Path Finder, Stone Design's great suite of applications like Create, and many others.
-- james
Not Opera-specific? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not Opera-specific? (Score:5, Informative)
Not Opera, that's for sure
I remember using software which gave me mouse gestures in Windows about 9 years ago, not too long after the first release of Windows 95.
According to their site, Opera released their first Windows browser (version 2.1) in 1996.
Re:Not Opera-specific? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:opera (Score:3, Funny)
*ducks*
Re:opera (Score:5, Informative)
Re:opera (Score:5, Informative)
Re:opera (Score:3, Funny)
Re:opera (Score:3, Informative)
Re:opera (Score:5, Interesting)
Make 3 pages, called main.html, topframe.html, and bottomframe.html. And dont worry. I took a whole 3 minutes putting this together. No need to thank me.
Begin main.html
End main.html
Begin topframe.html
End topframe.html
Begin bottomframe.html
End bottomframe.html
Now I even made sure they pass the w3c validator so as to not get blame from having invalid pages. Anyway, that code works perfect in the top browsers... all except Opera. Opera, even the most current version (This has been a bug for as long as I have known in Opera), will print every frame, where as all other browsers will properly print their specific target. I used this perticular example because it is the most recent one I have had the priviledge of dealing with. Believe me, there are hundereds more. Ive got a notebook dedicated specifically to Opera bugs I should watch out for
Re:opera (Score:4, Informative)
Re:opera (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:opera (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm no Opera Fan, but I have to point out the logical fallacy here (which, by the way the people who marked this guy insightful should read): Product A had no market share at some point in time. Support your argument that it should have more market share now.
Can you see how easily that same argument can be turned against your favorite br
Re:opera (Score:5, Insightful)
- larger footprint
- less CSS support
- not free (unless you want an annoying banner ad)
- buggier (yes, in comparison to Firefox)
- less support
- they make the choices for you unlike in Firefox where all the add-ons and extensions are there for YOU to choose.
Al in all, I would still use Opera LONG before I got back to IE but it took a different approach than Firefox and I really have to say I like that I get to choose my own extensions rather than having them bundled.
Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Funny)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sorry.
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Insightful)
I predict that their REALLY extreme tactic will be to start throwing every "extension" they can think of into IE, especially ones that break compatibility with other browsers and webservers.
Well, every "extension" except for security, that is. =D
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:4, Insightful)
Microsoft's enormous mistake was to drop IE for the Mac. Back in the days, when you complained to a webmaster about a webpage not rendering well on Linux, you'd get laughed at. I got even insulted once, about how i had to use a 'serious' browser. Now, when you complain about a page not rendering well on a Mac, webmasters take you seriously because Mac OS gets a lot more respect as a desktop OS.
While there are still web sites out there that don't render well outside of IE, there are a LOT less of them compared to three years ago.
If I were MS, I'd make a huge marketing campaign about a brand new browser, with a different name and all, with all sorts of new features, and make sure you provide a Mac version. If they were smart, they'd release a Linux version too, but god knows pigs will fly when that happens...
-DZM
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Interesting)
they offered IE for free in the hope that they could "embrace and extend" the internet - stopping all other browsers, and thereby stopping all other platforms - but it didn't work. so why should they bother any more? there's nothing to be gained by owning the users browser.
on the other hand, owning where they buy all their music from... now that might be a lucrative business to get into...
-- james
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Interesting)
There is still a lot ot be gained from owning the users browser, because at long last real rich GUI apps are starting to be available over the web. We were promised web applications a long time ago, but all we got were forms and web pages that, while providing an interface were quite slow, and had a very bare bones interface.
Microsofts big new technology advancement for Longhorn is XAML and Avalon which, in theory, brings real fast rich web applications to the world. In the meantime firefox/mozilla is busy with XUL and related technologies (if you want to see what XUL can do, take a look at this site [faser.net]).
Web applications are going to happen. They aren't going to replace locally installed apps entirely, but they will fill niches with, for instance, powerful webmail interfaces (that look and behave like a local GUI), tax calculation apps, calendaring services, and all those simple database frontends etc. The question then, is who is going to provide the architecture for Web Apps? MS desperately wants to be the one to do it - because web applications are potentially completely platform agnostic. If Web applications are all XAML, then you need Windows to use them, and MS strengthens their monopoly. If XUL gets a decent foothold, then any platform that has Mozilla, Firefox, or in fact any XUL implementation (XUL is open source and LGPL, so whoever wants to can implement it), is a viable platform for those web apps.
What MS fears most is a world where a decent chunk of applications are completely platform agnostic, because then people simply won't care about Windows. Lose the monopoly stranglehold, and MS will be in severe trouble.
To keep that monopoly stranglehold MS has to, if not win this latest browser war, at least keep the fight going long and hard enough that Longhorn has significant market share (that's well past the release date), and hence XAML is the most widely available architecture via which to deliver web apps, before Mozilla/Firefox gets any really significant market share.
This war is surprisingly important.
Jedidiah.
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:4, Insightful)
Imagine what they COULD have done by leveraging IE into developing weblications!
The biggest problem with web-based anything is the lack of control you have over the browser. Not coincidentally, this is why development time for web-based applications is quick - the application output is very simple.
For example, I've written a medium-sized application (~40,000 lines) in PHP-GTK [php.net] and love the control I get over the client experience in the application. User chooses X, I pop up a dropdown list to get more information, pop up an editor that captures their input in real time, etc....
It's hard to impossible to do all this with javascript, but it's sort of what I'm talking about.
Take javascript, make it 10x more powerful, and provide some security measures.
For example, a certificate that would have to be installed in the browser first before scripts from NNN site would operate. Control the distribution of the certificates, and you control access to the application! You could use a bi-directional certificate so that both sides authenticate each other!
Run this over HTTPS and you'd have a damn secure application framework that would allow for:
1) Rapid application development times - On the server it'd be a set of ASP/PHP style scripts.
2) Rich client-ish interfaces that make XUL look tame.
3) Secure by design. Your scripts would only be accessable to somebody with a valid certificate.
4) If sufficiently developed, the javascript replacement could operate offline merely by saving the script to disk. (stretching things a bit, here)
In short, all the advantages of web-based design with all the advantages of client-side design. What's not to like?
They botched it with ActiveX, but it was an attempt at what I'm talking about. Can you imagine trying to fight that?
Java comes close to the above - but it lacks the security features I'm mentioning, and it's operational characteristics are "heavy" - the JVM is large and slow, particularly in low-memory situations.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:5, Funny)
Sir, I'm from the microsoft corporation. I was sent to "upgrade" your browsing experience. Plase bend over and drop your shorts.
No, sir, this isn't really necessary. Our geeks are working on a way to use XAML to automatically download and solder metal on to your ass over the internet. Yep, the future is coming.
Re:Protecting the Monopoly (Score:3, Insightful)
With all the money they make there, I really can't understand why they _don't_ do this. It makes no sense at all why they'd just give up on their browser like they have.
Oh goody. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oh goody. (Score:5, Insightful)
whats so hard about loading a transparent PNG anyway?
Re:Oh goody. (Score:3, Informative)
What's even worse is that IE does support transparent PNGs, if you apply a filter to it. Why can that be the default action for PNGs?
Re:Oh goody. (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually it is a big deal. PNG provides many advantages over GIF for both designers and Web users. But because the dominant browser doesn't support PNG properly, even those people who don't use IE are saddled with its limitations.
That's one of the most pernicious effects of monopoly control - the weaknesses of a monopoly product become liabilities to everyone.
All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:4, Insightful)
I can think of a few compelling reasons [safecenter.net]...
-- james
Re:All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether that's true is another story. But that's the Joe User mentality.
Re:All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:3, Informative)
Bullshit. I have had 3 friends who, even if they're computer literate, are really hating their windows boxes. I've tried time and again, to get them to install spybot, firefox, etc. But they won't have it. THey're convinced that these are stopgap measures that really won't accomplish much in the long run. One of them refuses to use his PC networked anymore (even afer OS reinstall). He just views his camera images and listens to his music. Another one is tryin
Re:All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:3, Funny)
Re:All MS needs to do to compete is imitate (Score:3, Informative)
I scroll through the current page, middle clicking on every interesting link, which opens them in background tabs. Then when I've done with the current page, I close its tab to move to the next page.
This ensures that I don't miss anything and I don't have to mess with as many as 50 windows open at once. I just have 50 tabs at once, all preloading so I don't have to wait at all.
Too late , too little (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft may be able to do something however late it is (see
*sigh* "Best Viewed"? (Score:5, Insightful)
When my company started putting "Best Viewed in Firefox/Mozilla"...
Why do people continue to insist on stupid "Best viewed with X" labels. Your website should be developed to display properly on any standards-compliant browser, and not be restricted to a particular platform or application.
Why not put up one of those "Try Firefox" icons instead of implying that other standards-compliant browsers (namely Opera) might have trouble with your poorly-designed site?
Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:*sigh* "Best Viewed"? (Score:3, Funny)
THOSE OF US WHO GET INTERNET ACCESS VIA TELEGRAPH FIND THIS DISCRIMINATORY STOP WE DONT ALL HAVE COMPUTERS STOP SO PLEASE STOP
Along with a 'Web server powered by electricity'...
SOME PEOPLE I KNOW STILL USE SMOKE SIGNALS STOP
Re:Too late , too little (Score:5, Insightful)
When you said your company started putting "Best Viewed in Firefox/Mozilla" on your intranet, I knew that your developers missed the point of web standards and the browser wars entirely.
Re:Too late , too little (Score:5, Insightful)
1. That's very 1997 of you. Good job.
2. The browser wars are not over; that's like claiming that Palestine has suddenly won the conflict over Israel. (Yes, I did just compare Microsoft to Israel and Mozilla to Palestine. Politics aside, I think their positions are similar.)
3. Your company is, at most, a drop in the ocean compared to the [steadily declining] number of IE users out there. You might have fifty users on Firefox, or you might have ten thousand.
It comes down to a business decision. If you force software upon your employees, will they be more or less productive? Will they actually use it, or will they use the alternatives? If your company's employees come to work after checking their email in AOL on Windows 98, they might not be comfortable using Firefox. It shouldn't be that way, but not everybody moves very easily. This is the same reason why OpenOffice.org isn't more popular. Luckily for Mozilla (esp. Firefox), their product has so many advantages that people are willing to undergo the relatively painless process of switching.
Re:Too late , too little (Score:3, Insightful)
Politics aside, I think you're a troll.
I think the whole virus thing is really helping (Score:4, Interesting)
MS needs to unhook the browser from the OS, i think this turned out to be a major assbiter for them now. Becuase it is so intertwined they have allowed the holes to become easily exploitable.
maybe they will finally rewrite IE and allow for it to be better? but lets not cross our fingers
Not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
I am IT director for a small division of a company near Philadelphia, and the problems caused by IE in our environment have increased greatly in the past year. We spend more time than ever fixing problems caused by spyware in particular.
This also falls into a timeframe when the browser alternatives have been getting much better (Mozilla, Firefox). We are currently planning to move everyone to Firefox as their default browser once it has been released as 1.0 or better.
"Aggressive tactics" (Score:3, Funny)
I use Windows on my laptop... (Score:3, Interesting)
That said, I use SuSE 9.1 on my desktop and I love it dearly. I wouldn't go back for any reason. Yes, there's still the occasional glitch or issue I don't know how to resolve, but I'm fine with that.
Microsoft needs to understand, though, that if any sort of aggressive monopoly protection significantly affects the way in which I use my laptop computer, WindowsXP SP 2 will be going the same way as the Windows XP on my desktop: right out the, er, window.
HypeWars (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:HypeWars (Score:3, Funny)
Yeah, I sure do miss the Internet.
Not Until IE is Unbundled (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not Until IE is Unbundled (Score:5, Interesting)
When you search Google for the word internet [google.com], the first hit is IE home.
Re:Not Until IE is Unbundled (Score:5, Interesting)
Just found that amusing.
Re:Not Until IE is Unbundled (Score:4, Funny)
Shouldn't the automated security patch downloader on Windows install Firefox for you?
Re:Not Until IE is Unbundled (Score:3, Interesting)
I work in the IT department of a university, and we currently have Firefox installed on all the machines we manage. We actually install Firefox on any machine missing it before we do anything else with a computer, because we do not like using an insecure browser. While Firefox might not be entirely secure (then again, what is?) but it is much better than IE.
Currently we are working on a way to remove as much of IE
Say it ain't so (Score:5, Funny)
Alternative browsers? Who knew? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm finding this to be less of a problem (Score:4, Interesting)
After cleaning up their machines I install Firefox and tell them about the pop-up blocking and tabbed browsing. I tell them that at this point they should only use IE as a last resort. The explaination literally takes about 30 seconds and I haven't had any problems with people not "getting it."
I've done this for easily a dozen different people in the last month, and every one I've talked to afterwards has mentioned how much nicer it is browsing with Firefox.
Maybe I've just been lucky with the people I've done work for recently, but it seems to me that most people are more than happy to make the switch once the software is installed and demonstrated to them.
Undoubtedly there are people out there that just can't be bothered (from what I've read on here at least,) but at that point it's their problem and they'll be paying me if I have to come back and clean the crap off their computer again.
PS: I just wish Firefox would render Slashdot consistently. WTF?
Re:Alternative browsers? Who knew? (Score:4, Insightful)
I encounter similar statements. Most people think that they have to set the browser home page to the ISP they are using and click on things from there.
Here's what I found: I haven't talked anyone into using Firefox or Mozilla, let alone Linux. Don't tell them how wonderful it is...they won't get it!
Here's what works;
Ask them if they have problems with pop-ups.
Ask them if they have problems with 'the Internet'. Get details on these 'problems'.
If either answer is 'yes', ask them what sites they like to go to.
Install Firefox, and add those sites to the Home page; create tabs for each site, bookmark the tabs, use that bookmark folder as the user's home page.
Import IE settings.
Show them this new program. Show them how easy it is to click on the tabs for each web site.
Point out that there are no popups.
If necessary, tweak Firefox to 'fix the problems' encountered with IE.
Having said all that, I can't get my older sister to look at anything but IE...while about a month ago two people outside of work have asked me for help in installing Firefox and one other person asked me to install Linux after I showed him Firefox and mentioned Linux in passing. (This last person is a total novice; hadn't turned his computer on during most of last year). All are happy and have not switched back to IE.
So What? (Score:3, Insightful)
Also: What market share? If browsers are freely-available, is it really a "market"?
Now that IE is free as in beer and is the 900-pound gorilla, what will make people switch to alternatives en masse? Are security scares enough motivation? My experience is that "Normal" people seem to care little about the "backdoor of the week" syndrome, and they feel specially secure when they have turned automatic updates on
So, why will people switch?
The missing link: Distribution Channel (Score:4, Insightful)
That is where GBrowser comes into play. Google has a massive distribution channel that knows no OS boundaries.
One Fight that Micro$oft Cannot Win (Score:4, Insightful)
The reason that Micro$oft cannot win in this kind of fight is that there is no company paying the salaries of the programmers developing FireFox. It is a volunteer effort.
In the case of the Netscape browser, Netscape was a commerical company and essentially cut its own jugular in funding Netscape development and support and giving it away for free, but where could Netscape get its money to grow? It tried branching into commercial Web servers, but there were too many competitors in that market. Netscape was headed for bankruptcy.
In the case of FireFox, there is no company for Micro$oft to crush. Round 1 and the game goes to FireFox and the open-source movement. <applause>
Simple explanation (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft will then hype up these new developments as if they were their ideas and go on about how their right to innovate is important.
Also: Microsoft are not extending IE for Mac (Score:3, Interesting)
I think Microsoft still want to keep people on IE, but they are unable to concentrate thier efforts, and with the hullabaloo they are working behind the scenes to 'extract' the browser.
IE has kinda been tapered into a usable yet dangerous browser - firefox is fairly good (I have a wish list and potential bug list too long for me to sift through bugzilla reports)
Opera is good, does its job.
What is next for the humble browser? Integration? Better / faster rendering? I think not.
Perhaps being able to do a simple task better.
I personally would preffer my email and web in one box, so thunderbird developers write a neat plugin for firefox that combines them quickly and seamlessly.
And the sunbird calendar is good. Again, I want them in one side bar, F7 for mail and F8 for calendar, Fsomethingelse bookmarks, Fagain for RSS links.
And remove the download window
I like the autodownload features, I can rip down pdf files from a list without fsssskking Adowbee Acrowbaht Readuh trying to happily rape my ram.
Don't worry, MS (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, I think MS has little to fear of Mozilla & Co.
Don't mod me Troll, I love Firefox, Safari and Opera and use them almost exclusively. Yet when I try to convince my Windows-using friends the reaction is usually "But the included browser (if they know this expression) works fine. I'm used to it."
It's incredibly difficult to compete with a program that comes installed with the OS.
I think the population of really internet-savy people, people who care about their browser, is no more than 5-10%. These people can be won. The vast majority will stay with IE.
Re:Don't worry, MS (Score:5, Insightful)
"But the included browser (if they know this expression) works fine. I'm used to it."
Aye, I get this argument too (and also from people I'd expect to know better ;) but I just don't get it:
wordpad comes bundled with Windows; yet the first thing most people do is install Word. I think that that needs to be our argument: "IE is a capable-enough browser, a bit like wordpad or the Windows firewall, but a power-use like you would probably want to upgrade to a proper browser"... or something similar.
Also, don't underestimate the power of themes and extensions! Most of the interest I get in my "strange" browser is from it (a) looking different fairly frequently (usually when a new Firefox is released and my usual theme breaks :( ) or from (b) me using an extension to do something faster than my colleagues.
It's a slow process, but I feel I'm winning people over bit by bit...
I care nothing for your browser wars. (Score:3, Insightful)
(Sure, I kludge it a little to make it look 100% in all the major browsers, but it still validates w3c.)
Browsers for specific purposes: (Score:5, Funny)
Firefox - Everyday browsing (Duh!)
IE - College webmail reading (ActiveX)
Netscape - When I feel like being punished
Opera - Searching for pr0n! (Those one-handed guestures.
Just seems to me you can appreciate them all!
Make Love not [Browser] War.
Re:Browsers for specific purposes: (Score:3, Funny)
Dude- Tell us which college you go to, so we can avoid it at all costs. :)
Come on people, itse easy (Score:3, Funny)
Who do you think would win in a fight between THIS [koorenneef.nl] guy, and THIS [kentsalas.com]guy. It's no contest.
Re:Come on people, itse easy (Score:3, Funny)
Indeed, the browser wars are back (Score:3, Informative)
But, alas, because "Set program access and defaults" doesn't actually do $hit.. last weekend I was infected by spyware using IE. Nasty, nasty stuff that just won't die.
So IE is out for me.. I don't blame Microsoft for the malware (although I DO blame them for a link opening with IE when I had FF set as the default..).. but enough is enough.
The sites that don't work properly with FF are few.. and I can easily decide if the site is worthy of really browsing by using the open in IE extension.
My criticism of FF is that extensions break with each release, and that security updates are not available as patches (I could tolerate ONE of them.. but combined it's really a nuisance).
For me it has... (Score:4, Insightful)
---
Once again I would like to renew my request that your website be updated to support all modern browsers. The idea that by running a current version of Opera but then being told to "upgrade" speaks poorly of your website and it's staff.
The fact that all one must do to access Bellsouth's website is to change the user agent gives lie to the fact any upgrade is need.
Please respect your customers by allowing them the option of using whatever modern browser they wish instead of making them think that they must use a browser that has so many security issues that the federal government has dissuaded it's use or one that has become outdated.
Thank you.
---
Yes it may be a little harsh but sometimes you have to be pretty forthright to get past the corperate mindset. Until I get a response I plan on sending this same text once a week.
Best browser (Score:3, Interesting)
My reason for sticking with IE (Score:3, Interesting)
If there was something similar but more generic for Firefox, I'd probably switch over..
Any suggestions?
Competition is a good thing... (Score:3, Insightful)
Build a better mouse trap... (Score:4, Insightful)
The good news is that innovation (including better security) are good reasons to switch from even heavily-entrenched products.
The bad news is that some people may have to admit that Microsoft isn't as guilty as they want it to be. IE beat Netscape for the simple reason that it sucked less. Sure, maybe being a "monopoly" helped, but that doesn't mean much when browsers were and are still given away for free (a trend which M$ didn't start).
If Firefox overtakes IE, I win. If IE gets better, I still win. If Netscape pulls out from under years of browsers not any better and usually worse and more bloaty than IE, I still win. I win, I win, I win. And, honestly, I don't care who else wins with me. It can be MS, or Apple, or the open source community. The point is that competition is still alive in the browser world, even if all of the things Netscape whined about were true.
Re:This Just In (Score:5, Funny)
Oooh, even better do that with IE!
What a better way to keep workers from using it -- emberass them!
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)
I believe that was declared with the PMSNBC.com article that trumpeted "BROWSER WARS OVAR!!" and thus went on to claim IE the victor....
By what standard, i don't know...
Currently, i view MS as a hibernating giant- with Longhorn getting pushed back again and again, and IE just barely adding some bolted-on features of late (but yet not really fixing any of the severe issues with it)... and so forth...
If we, Apple, or anyone is going to put a sizeable dent into the Windows Entrenchment, *NOW* is the time...
Re:Huh? Will longhorn become... (Score:5, Funny)
Word has serious issues between versions, however. (Score:3, Insightful)
If only they'd kept the document format simple and added a nice "review codes" feature like WordPerfect used to have...
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
LAYER and JSSS? (Score:5, Interesting)
Netscapes track record pre-Mozilla with the W3C makes MS look like angels.
Firefox is a fantastic browser, but lets not start revising history. The original Netscape sucked and deserved to fall flat on its face.
Re:LAYER and JSSS? (Score:5, Funny)
Sir, you deserve dome sort of award for not mentioning the hated blink-tag.
(Apologies if it's bringing back horrible memories)
Re:Huh? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)
Its less importent to know what the Nazis felt. Its more importent to find out why so many germans played along. And the reasons for that are to be found in WW I (the versailles treaty giving the germans the sole responsibility for the war, forbidding almost all military, and requesting reparations that made it impossible for germany to recover economically. The reason for WWII is the way WWI was ended. check your facts here [teacheroz.com].
The french wanted revenge (why else did they pickk versailles) for 1870 but went over the top. In the end this was the foundation for another war.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Funny)
Now watch this C: drive.
Re:FireFox (Score:5, Insightful)
Firefox and others don't have to come out on top. There just needs to be a significant presence of browsers other than IE on the net to negate Microsofts ability to abuse. When 98% of browsers are IE, they can basterdize standards and it looks like the 2% are the screwed up ones. If several other browsers are largely in use (don't need to be #1) then it will be more apparent which browser is actually screwed up and not following standards.
Well, I can see it in Safari, and Joe can see in Firefox. Sally says it works with Opera. How come it looks so weird on your computer?
Re:Slashbot alert! (Score:3, Insightful)
Even though I *am* here on OS X, methinks you don't know what 'monopoly' means. It doesn't mean that there aren't any other choices, it means that MS leverages their market share in their OS to stifle competition in other areas.
Go back a few years, and read about the original browser war. That is a good example. Or see what MS did to BeOS's OEM program.