FCC Approves BPL Despite Interference Concerns 293
goosman writes "The ARRL is reporting that the FCC has approved revised Part 15 (unlicensed services) rules to specifically regulate the deployment of broadband over power line (BPL) technology. The Commission adopted a Report and Order in ET Docket 04-37 when it met in open session today. At the same time, three members of the Commission, including Chairman Michael K. Powell, specifically mentioned the concerns of Amateur Radio operators at the open meeting and expressed either assurances or hope that the new BPL rules will adequately address interference to licensed services."
Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2, Insightful)
So long as it doesn't interfere with emergency freqs, it's a net gain.
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2, Insightful)
If there is interference with the spectrum under normal conditions, who in the hell in their right mind would go out and purchase equipment to use that band?
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now there they could use HAM equipment for communicating... (Assuming people still have it as it is useless at other times and you can practice or test it).
Who is going to hear you scream for help?
Not the guy in the place were the power is still on.
The only thing he hears (Assuming......) is BPL
Jeroen
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2)
Face it, its a dead and worthless technology.
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:4, Informative)
Amateur Radio and Innovation in Telecommunications Technology [comm.sfu.ca] The summary is "a hell of a lot", and if you want a comprehensive list, read the thesis.
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
Horrible - because then you won't have amateur radios when you need them for emergency purposes.
Who's going to spend the money on equipment they can only use during a disaster? Even the government doesn't want to do that.
Anyone that still has the equipment won't be able to use it effectively. In disasters, you do what you do every day. Trying to follow new patterns on top of the stress has been sh
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Informative)
Dude. They need to practice... (Score:3, Insightful)
This year the International Space Station was involved in field day [arrl.org]! My local Ham Club had the use of BOTH the county fire department's mobile operation center AND the sheriff's mobile operation cent
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:5, Informative)
<echo mike>
I guess CB Ray-dee-yo is all the communikashuns you ever needed there, good buddy!!
</echo mike>
NEVER underestimate the needs of Amateur Radio in catastrophic situations. BPL interference can propagate great distances. If there is a state of emergency in an area, even if there is no power for many miles, BPL can still affect the reception of signals coming FROM the emergency area. The receiving area, with power, would have trouble picking up the shortwave frequencies due to the BPL that will most likely be present. A lot of the popular VHF/UHF emergency frequencies, apparently not affected as much as shortwave frequencies, are difficult to use in hilly or mountainous regions.
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
yeah, that pretty much sums it up. I don't mean to sound callous, but realy...
NEVER underestimate the needs of Amateur Radio in catastrophic situations.
During the biggest domestic US "disaster" of the past 50 years, one that actually targetted a building used as a communications nexus (namely, 09/11/2001), over a third of cell phones in the area still worked. And all satellite phones, though uncommon, still worked.
We don't need ham radio anymore. period. It once ser
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Informative)
Cell-phones were useless on-scene, the system was overloaded.
FDNY's own radio system couldn't handle the traffic of the event itself while it was happening, just before the buildings came down. They didn't have enough frequencies allocated to deal with the problem.
But with BPL, all the houses using BPL in Jersey would have been interfering as well. The frequencies used, when radi
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2, Interesting)
So long as it doesn't interfere with emergency freqs, it's a net gain.
- Broadcast crap all over amateur radio bands.
- Amateur radio users have to sign up for BPL.
- BPL ISPs rake in money from all those monthly fees.
A net gain, but not for the amateur radio users.Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2)
Of course, hardly anyone watches over-the-air any more with cable and DBS, so maybe it doesn't matter
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2)
And it will only cost you 59.99 a month. And be down in a storm. Or when the power is out. But you get lots of free porn. And you can play Counter-Strike.
And they'll put in that filter so it only interferes with ham bands, and not the 95% of the other things in
Except that it doesn't work that way... (Score:5, Informative)
Here's why:
BPL produces interference across the entire spectrum of "high frequency" (3-30Mhz) radio, and a little above and below in fact. The HF frequencies have special properties (on this planet, at least) of being reflected around the world by the ionosphere. A tiny sliver of these frequencies are used by amateur radio operators, but there are litterally thousands of other kinds of licensees worldwide.
BPL power lines radiate this interference, and when the ionosphere is highly reflective, the interference will be sent around the world. Since the FCC denied the request to have the BPL systems transmit identification, there won't be any way for anyone to identify which BPL installation is causig interference, since it might be halfway around the country, or halfway around the world.
There are BPL systems that don't use HF radio waves, but in all the rush to "Step 3: Profit" these technical issues have been ignored, and the comlpanies with the best lobbiests have won.
Re:Seems an easy tradeoff to me... (Score:2)
While I agree with your sentiment, I thought that I should mention that this statement isn't quite correct. Most of the so-called atomic clocks (`radio controlled clocks' would be more accurate) don't use the WWV/WWVH signals at 5, 10, 15, 2.5 or 20 mHz.
Instead, they use the WWVB signal at 60 kHz [nist.gov], which presumably would not be affected by BPL. This link [nist.gov] gives more information specifically related to r
Question about "twisted lines." (Score:5, Interesting)
Just another ignorant AC...
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:3, Insightful)
Ham Radio is a fantastic hobby, and this is truly an unfortunate decision.
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:5, Informative)
- A standard power cable is a long steel cable with an outer layer of aluminum strands twisted around it serving as conductor.
- A "twisted pair" of lines are two lines, corresponding to the signal line and the return path, that are twisted around each other. The idea is that if the same signal travels in both directions, the lines will each generate an equal but with opposite sign EM field (which is what causes interference), and these two fields will effectively cancel eachother out.
Unfortunately, if you twisted power lines, you'd need insulation tens of centimeters if not meters thick to prevent arcing. High voltage lines can run up to 400kV, and standard insulators between those and the cable towers are a good 3 or 4 meters long...
Jw
Clarification on "twisted lines." (Score:5, Informative)
Any electrical circuit forms a loop; you can trace the current going out from the power source, through the load, and back to the other side of the power source.
For an electric power transmission line, this "loop" is the wires on the left and right sides of the power-line crossbar (OK, not all lines look like that, but the principle is the same). You can trace an imaginary line down one side of the power line and back on the other, enclosing a loop 12 feet wide and many miles long, with enormous area. This is one reason power lines are a bad idea for carrying RF signals; they make a GREAT antenna.
For radio interference, the area enclosed by this loop is an important factor; reduce the loop area, and you reduce the radiated interference. The DIRECTION of the current in the loop also counts; a clockwise loop radiates with a phase opposite that of a counterclockwise loop and can cancel it out if the two are right next to one another.
Now imagine twisting the two wires around each other; you get many very tiny loops with alternating CW/CCW directions of current flow in the loop; their net radiating effects cancel out.
Interesting note: Cross-country power lines ARE in fact twisted pairs, to prevent another interference type. At every Nth tower, you'll see the lines cross over so the left-hand line goes to the right. This results in loops of a half-mile length or so; useless for shielding from RF, but VERY important for protecting the grid from geomagnetic storms, where the Earth's magnetic field is pushed around by solar wind. Making the net loop area zero prevents the transmission line from acting as a giant DC generator and blowing out the switchgear, causing major blackouts (this happened in Canada in the 1970s, IIRC).
Re:Clarification on "twisted lines." (Score:4, Informative)
For an electric power transmission line, this "loop" is the wires on the left and right sides of the power-line crossbar (OK, not all lines look like that, but the principle is the same). You can trace an imaginary line down one side of the power line and back on the other, enclosing a loop 12 feet wide and many miles long, with enormous area. This is one reason power lines are a bad idea for carrying RF signals; they make a GREAT antenna.
Not really true, most power transmission is done in 3 phases, with all 3 phases summing to a return path on the Neutral wire (which you don't need if everything is balanced, which transmission lines are close to so they omit it, using the ground for a neutral). Which you could really look at it as three return paths in the ground and three primary all at once, I suppose, but not technically correct. Now residential distribution might be single phase, but this is nothing compared to the amount of 3 phase out their right now.
Interesting note: Cross-country power lines ARE in fact twisted pairs, to prevent another interference type. At every Nth tower, you'll see the lines cross over so the left-hand line goes to the right. This results in loops of a half-mile length or so; useless for shielding from RF, but VERY important for protecting the grid from geomagnetic storms, where the Earth's magnetic field is pushed around by solar wind. Making the net loop area zero prevents the transmission line from acting as a giant DC generator and blowing out the switchgear, causing major blackouts (this happened in Canada in the 1970s, IIRC).
What you a describing is called transposition, and it has nothing to do with interference from magnetic storms. A single power line can be seen as a long resistor and inductor in series with a shunt capacitor to ground. Three lines can be seen as the same thing, however with a very small magnetic coupling between lines, often model as a transformer, and a capacitor between lines. Now there are a number of ways to calculate these values, and they are all based on the physical geometry of the line. So if A phase is next to B phase is next to C phase for 300 miles, then your get an unbalance because more A phase is couple into B than into C. When all of these calculations were made by hand, this made for some seriously heinous matrices, which are critical for stability calculations. To solve this problem you twist the wires, sort of. There are a number of different techniques to do this, IE just twisting 2 wires, and leaving one alone, doing all three. These towers are called crossover towers, and their use has been decreasing, due to the fact that at these locations there a higher percentage of transient faults occur (lightning strikes, squirrels getting zapped), which is a pretty big deal to people who make their money 'wheeling' power (transporting power through their systems). As well computers are used pretty extensively for modeling power lines (EMTDC or ATP) and they can deal with 1000x1000 matrix reduction way better than I can.
BTW solar storms did affect the Canadian outage, this is referred to as Geomagnetically Induced Currents (GIC). But it's not DC, it can't be it has to be AC to be seen by the relays that this effects. Basically it causes large ground currents to flow in and out of the system at unpredictable locations and magnitudes. When this happens, a lot of protective devices see a large ground current and assume they have a single line to ground fault and open up the breaker. This is really no big problem, open a breaker at full load is nothing compared to opening with a bolted 3 phase to ground fault right at the terminals of the breaker. If you go here [agu.org] he comments on "When power is restored, all thermostatically controlled electric loads com
Re:tangential (Score:2)
Nah. It's not reliable enough nor easy enough to capture. Like lightning.
Re:tangential (Score:2)
Along the same type of thought, there are hundreds or thousands of volts difference between continents and long distances. Finding a way to efficiently harness this energy would also be another source of "free" power.
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:2)
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:2)
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:2)
In order to clarify 'twisted lines', the two [or more lines] in 'twisted lines' are individually insulated from each other, like the 4-conductor phone lines in your house. Since they are insulated, one line can
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:5, Informative)
The idea is that the magnetic field (H-field) and electric field (E- field) from the one conductor, where the signal is travelling one direction, will cancel out the H and E fields from the other conductor, where the returning signal is traveling the other way, leaving no net signal at distances "far" from the conductor (where "far" is defined by the signal frequency).
In a power line, you CANNOT twist the two conductors into that kind of close proximity, as the insulator required to keep the power from going ZZAAP is too large and/or costly to deploy.
Furthurmore, one of the assertions of BPL - that by using BPL "every power plug is an Internet plug" is bullshit. The BPL signal will not cross a transformer - the transformer is designed to pass 60 Hz (US - 50 Hz in the UK) ONLY. Therefor, for the signal to pass the transformer there needs to be a device installed that takes the signal from one side, regenerates and amplifies it, and injects it on the other side.
The only "advantage" of BPL is the idea that you can carry the signal along the long haul high tension runs without extra infrastructure costs. However, that is being determined to be BS as well, as they are finding that they have to install signal repeaters every few km to boost the signal.
If the power companies want to get into the Internet business, great! Let them string fiber along the power lines - they will have MUCH more bandwidth than BPL gives them, much more reliability, much less interference to other services, AND they can apportion a section of the fiber for SCADA purposes (monitoring substations, controlling switching, reading your meter, etc. Note - that data would NOT be transiting the Internet, but would be in a seperate time slot or fiber, so it would not present a security risk.)
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:2)
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:5, Interesting)
However the frequency of electricity is 50 or 60 Hz (depending on the part of the world you live in), and therefore the wavelength of the emitted radiation is 50 to 60 kilometers, so the eventual exchange of wires every now and then suffices here. Broadband connections will need much higher frequencies, and therefore the radiation will have much lower wavelength. The "long range twisting" of the power lines is surely not enough for that.
Re:Question about "twisted lines." (Score:2)
how long have we been promised BPL? (Score:3, Interesting)
Some are trying (Score:4, Interesting)
According to Kevin Kushman (CEO of Current Communications) [current.net], "This [ruling] will spur a national buildout of BPL."
Not necessary too late. (Score:2, Insightful)
darn... (Score:2, Insightful)
Is any BPL being done in the US at the moment? (Score:4, Interesting)
Does this regulation now allow for commercial implementation of BPL by US power companies, or is this not the end of the story as far as regulation in the US goes?
Of course, I may be completely wrong and full scale commercial development is under way in other parts of the world already. Is it?
Re:Is any BPL being done in the US at the moment? (Score:3, Informative)
To my knowledge, every single trial of BPL in the UK has been abruptly cut short by legitimate complaints about interference - people not being able to watch digital TV, use portable (d
Re:Is any BPL being done in the US at the moment? (Score:2)
Does this regulation now allow for commercial implementation of BPL by US power companies, or is this not the end of the story as far as regulation in the US goes?
Commercial implementation was allowed prior to this regulation. In fact there have been a few power companies that have anounced significant plans for BPL before the FCC decided anything, and a few small scale deployements (BPL is available along 2 streets in my home town).
The main reason that power companies have not deployed BPL on a larg
Tests in Cincinnati, OH (Score:3, Informative)
Trials abandoned in UK in late 90s (Score:5, Informative)
It was accepted at the time that the cost of adding the necessary filters to each streetlight was too much to continue with the project.
Of course, technolgy has improved significantly in the last few years, maybe this has now been resolved. But it's quite possible that the system may be able to work in some areas and not in others simply because of the way your road's street lights are wired up.
Jolyon
game not over (Score:4, Interesting)
What I want is fiber optic, goddamnit! That would be the real last mile solution!
And it pi55es me off that so much fiber optic infrastructure is going unused for lack of investment!
Re:game not over (Score:2, Informative)
HF still in use... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:HF still in use... (Score:2, Informative)
2. SHARES RESOLUTION ON BROADBAND OVER POWER LINE (BPL) - THE SHARES
HF INTEROPERABILITY WORKING GROUP HAS PASSED A RESOLUTION EXPRESSING
STRONG CONCERN OVER THE FCC'S PLAN TO IMPLEMENT BPL. INDIVIDUAL
SHARES ENTITIES WILL TRY TO GET STATEMENTS ON THE RECORD DURING THE
45-DAY PERIOD FOR COMMENTS ON THE NOTICE OF PROPOSED RULE MAKING
(NPRM). HERE IS THE RESOLUT
control (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems sad, and yet predictable the government would not care that the interference might be a big issue...
Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:5, Interesting)
When I first read about using power lines to provide broadband Internet access, I was very excited, especially since I lived in an area in which there was no real competition in broadband. It seemed like a great idea. At the time I didn't realize that the unshielded power lines would interfere with Amateur Radio.
Radio Amateurs, HAMs, have played critical roles in almost every large disaster that has happened in this country. They provided emergency communications when no other communications technologies were working. Groups of HAMs regularly set up disaster drills where they perfect their ability to get information in and out of a disaster torn area. HAMs have also helped advance radio technology. The very first wireless Internet connections were set up by HAMs using 2-meter rigs connected to their computers back in the days of the first IBM PC and Apple IIe.
There might be all kinds of rules that the power companies have to follow to prevent interference with HAM radio, but my guess is that they'll just ignore them. How many amateur radio operators are going to have the fiscal resources needed to take on a big power company?
My guess is that everyone will quickly forget about this debate until a disaster strikes. Then maybe people will wonder why the communications were so poor and count the lives that were lost because of it.
If the power companies are going to disrupt the ability of HAM radio operators to provide communications during disasters, they should bear the cost of setting up alternative communication networks that can supply the needed communications. It's a cost of doing business.
Another question springs to mind, why this particular frequency spectrum, is it dictated by the application, or was this spectrum selected because there was they figured that amateur radio operators couldn't organize real opposition to it?
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, who would really be surprised if the FCC decided to amend the laws to fuck over hams?
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2, Informative)
The Homeland Security Dept has listed Hams as First Responders and as "essential" persons in the areas of security. HSD and FCC are both keeping this in mind.
I think one of the biggest reasons the FCC is allowing BPL is to introduce some competition to the cable and DSL companies. Right now it's pretty simple:
If you have cable TV, cable internet is probably cheaper than DSL.
If you don't have Cable, DSL is likely cheaper.
If BPL comes in under the cost of DSL for someone w/ Cable,
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2)
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2)
Just for the record, that's about four grand.
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2)
But as I understand it, the BPL interference is a side effect of BPL. Your transmitter would have to be awfully powerful to interfere with BPL... since it is not using the radio signals to communicate, but the much stronger signals on the line.
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:5, Insightful)
First. we are getting BPL because the power companies are too cheap, or stupid to start installing power lines that contain fiber optic strands. These are non conductors so they can share space with the electric distribution system.
Second, this is a 2 way street. The BPL can cause interference in the HF spectrum, but it can also be interfered with by HF. And one way for hams to overcome interference and bad conditions is to up their power output. Its amaizing what can be done with only 5 watts under good conditions. But we can go as high as 1500 watts, which may be needed to get a signal through the BPL interference.
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2)
Maybe so, but if you can't hear 'em, you can't work 'em. Running the legal limit on transmit power might make you fee
Re:Money vs. Amateurs --- Guess who wins (Score:2)
What happens in the situation where one of the BPL boxes goes kaput due to ill weather (or as someone else suggested, bulletholes)? How is this different from the lines getting cut by a tree or ice?
Politics maybe? (Score:3, Interesting)
The beginning of the death of Ham Radio? (Score:4, Interesting)
I shower often, brush my teeth, wear deodorant and don't live at home. Not to mention I'm under 30. (rimshot)
Seriously, folks: unless there is some way that the FCC and the BPL operators can guarantee with 100% success that interference won't occur, this is going to really wreak havoc on the hobby.
During the "great blackout", hams were actually really important in helping emergency services communicate after backup generators powering the Public Safety radio systems died. Introduce a technology that prevents hams from persuing their hobby recreationally, and eventually, they'll all go away.
Ergo, when the lights go out again, there's hardly anyone around to help.
But let's look at something else: how vindictive and brazen some of these older "1337" hams are.
You start to fuck with their only hobby, and I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that they'll fight back.
Part of the thing with BPL is that while it interferes with Amateur Radio frequencies, Amateur Radio frequencies can interfere with them in turn.
It's going to be very hard (if impossible) to stop some stinky, angry ham operator from pulling up next to some power lines in his tricked out hamsexy [hamsexy.com] truck and pump a couple hundred Watts of RF into the BPL lines.
A couple months of continual service outages would drive customers away.
Beware the wrath of a stinky ham.
Re:The beginning of the death of Ham Radio? (Score:2, Informative)
I've been a ham for many years (and I too shower, am under 30, and heck, I'm even married!) BPL is just a stupid idea all around. All antennas are basically some form or another of unshielded cable that's been bent to form a certain transmission pattern favorable to whatever frequency you're transmitting on. Albeit not a great transmitter, power lines are elevated unshielded cables, which look suspiciously like antennas covering the entire US.
Now, although I shudder at the thought of BPL's horrible i
Re:The beginning of the death of Ham Radio? (Score:2)
Re:The beginning of the death of Ham Radio? (Score:2)
If the lights go out and you need to communicate with someone, that someone is generally somewhere where the lights are NOT out. Only being able to talk to other people in the disaster area isn't particularly useful. You need to be able to talk to people OUTSIDE who can help you.
Re:The beginning of the death of Ham Radio? (Score:2)
I agree with the age bit -- I'm 35, apparantly quite young for somebody to dabble in ham radio -- but most of the hams I've seen do bathe regularly. And where do you live if not home? (I own my home. You live in a van?)
But this is hardly the death of ham radio. Ham radio is not all HF. There's lots of stuff going on at higher frequencies
- Driving the Development of Powerline Broadband (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.uplc.utc.org/
Why it won't work (Score:4, Informative)
- Power cables employ low-grade plastic that is unfriendly to high-frequency signals as the absorption per unit length is very high. This alone precludes transmission of high-speed data over significant distances.
- Power cables are not physically symmetrical and are therefore very effective antennas. They radiate energy from high-speed data signals which becomes a source of interference for wireless services including broadcast radio as well as emergency, maritime, aeronautical, military and navigation services. By reciprocity they also suck in energy from every local radio source which further degrades data signals.
- As signals propagate along cables they become weaker but the switching transients from washings machines, refrigerators, vacuum cleaners, electric drills, light switches and other appliances are huge, do not decay at the same rate and swamp data signals.
- Switching transients on power grids with generators going on and off line, dynamic load sharing, fault and maintenance work, all induces massive transients that also swamp data signals.
- Cable joints, transformers, power meters, the on/off nature of electrical appliances and the topology of power grids create large load changes and multiple signal reflection points. This creates a dynamic echo environment where the transmitted signal is further corrupted.
- Real time communications of any kind - whether by telephone, radio or TV - are taken out by the huge voltage transients inherent to power lines and ultimately the data rates achievable for non-real time are also very low.
- Transformers and power meters require a workaround as they present an absolute block to any high frequency signals.
Well Duh! (Score:3, Interesting)
On the otherhand, certified equipment costs more, and meeting code requirements means that there are some things that a company may want to do that would be viable technologically, and be of a benefit to the customer, but can not be delivered because of the restrictions in the rules they are obliged to follow. The database may be required to be too thourough, requiring a great deal of administration from the company and this could be a major expense too. So, I can also see the company's side.
I hate nothing more than listening to the radio, or talking on my cel phone, or watching TV only to be victimized by radio frequency interference. For my wife, it is even worse, RFI can really mess up her hearing aids. This doesn't make us unique, it is a fact of modern life. To some extent or another, we are all annoyed (or worse) by some RFI. So I think we can all understand what the AARL is warning us about.
On the otherhand, BPL can deliver broadband to people who have not been able to get it before. BPL may be able to provide less expensive service than other methods, and just by having another player in the game, BPL may be able to spur competition and innovation in what is really a comodity service.
I have some reservations about the FCC regulating something that they have not regulated much in the past. As far as I know, the power company has not needed a license to broadcast their 60 hz signal before - yet we all recieve it and use it. They are laying this new service down on the old infrastructure and using the fiber that controls their automated substations to get the BPL "signal" into the neighborhood. So, I guess I don't see a whole lot of new broadcasting going on!
The FCC I think made a wise decision, allowing the service to go forward while requiring solid equipment. Given the FCC's (recent) friendly attitude to buisness and ability to quickly make adjustments to rules, I think that they have done the right thing. I think that there may be a few power companies out there who will decide to not offer the service because they disagree with this but I'll bet those companies that do that will be located somewhere that already had broadband providers. So, BPL will go a lonq ways to providing those who have been left behind in the broadband race!
Re:Well Duh! (Score:2)
I'm sure it was an honest mistake, but it's the ARRL: [arrl.org] Amateur Radio Relay League.
</pedantic_mode>
Re:Well Duh! (Score:2)
What I did not get out of this article but have learned elsewhere is that BPL is a "last mile" solution, intended to distribute from the substation to the end user. The signal will be carried via fiber to the substations (the fiber already exists). BPL will actually be a very low power signal.
Can it interfere? Sure. Will it? Probably sometimes - but t
Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed. (Score:2, Insightful)
BPL is a really the only solution for some areas, even in this day of DSL/Cable/Wimax/3G and whatever.
To give you folks a bit of perspective, I live 1.5 hours away from New York and Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, a place called Bucks County, up in the north end. It's not exactly "rural" but it's still a
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:2)
Ham radio is a hobby with some possible uses in emergencies, however, it is as relevant to modern emergency services as a muzzle-loading rifle is to current-day military operations. Sure, there's a lot of history, but the world keeps turning, and the day comes where you have to abandon old technologies for the advantages of newer ones. Clinging to HF in a day of FRS, GMRS, WiMax, 3G and 802.11g is silly.
I would suggest, however, you tell that to the folks who were hit by Hurric
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:5, Insightful)
And what level license do you hold? Not that it makes that much a difference, a HAM is a HAM is a HAM, but if your name is any indication, you are a technician licensee, and probably have little experience using HF bands in any case. I could be wrong, but since you fail to provide a call, I can do little more than assume that you have limited if no HF experience. And to keep things fair, my call is W4KDH, and I hold a General class license.
BPL is a really the only solution for some areas, even in this day of DSL/Cable/Wimax/3G and whatever.
NO it is not. WiMax, and in some cases even Satellite are better solutions, cheaper to implement and ultimately cheaper to maintain. Not to mention the direct benefit of no incidental RF radiation from miles and miles of antenna(power lines).
To give you folks a bit of perspective, I live 1.5 hours away from New York and Philadelphia, in Pennsylvania, a place called Bucks County, up in the north end. It's not exactly "rural" but it's still a place where people come to get out to "the country".
And again, to be fair, I live in a little place called Bear Creek, NC, in Chatham county which IS a rural area, not just a "Could be considered rural for this excercise" area. I commute an hour to work and an hour home each day due to the distance between my house and my office.
DSL service has only been offered in this area since April 2004. Cable internet access is still NOT an option and won't be anytime soon. Modem connections in many areas are - at best - 56K X2, with typical connections much slower. ISDN is charged by the minute - at
DSL service is NOT offered here. Sprint does not care for the expense of setting it up. I get dialup, and 56K X2 is a standard, not a connection speed. Typically, even in the best of circumstances, a "56K" connection will get you 52K realized speeds... I typically get 28.8 max. ISDN is not an option, as again, sprint deems it too expensive to set up the existing infrastructure for ISDN. And you can get T-1. Its just a matter of cost. Any provider will gladly provide you a T1, no matter where you are, so long as you make it worth their while to run the lines, etc.
There's a guy running an point-to-point wireless ISP operation called "Airisen" here, but it does not work where there's too many trees (like my house).
Then the reasonable solution would be to put an antenna higher than the trees. As a Ham, you should at least have SOME grasp of the basics of RF principles, and especially the idea of Line of Sight. You dont think that WiMax or 3G would be any different do you?
What matters most about BPL is that it rides on existing infrastructure - no new towers, no new wires, no digging, no aiming, no clearing trees to get line of sight.
Here you mention line of sight, but seem to overlook that WRT the aforementioned PTP wireless provider. What the problem with BPL is is that that existing infrastructure is ancient, by most standards, unshielded, and NOT MADE to carry signals at the frequencies needed for PLC. Think about it... the areas that proponents argue will be best served are the EXACT areas that those power companies have yet to actually test in.
Of course BPL works in major metropolitan areas... but no real studies have been done in the US, that I am aware of at least, involving a BPL rollout to a truely rural area (meaning an area where there is VERY limited infrastructure to begin with). Hell, my power company cant even keep the power on when we have someting like a simple rain, how can I possibly expect them to provide adequate broadband? And the same goes for most similar areas
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:2)
Heh, no offense, but why should we listen to someone who drives an hour to work every day, for advice and for their opinion? You've already made it clear you're in this life for yourself and no one else.
Heh, really. But believe me, the hour drive is not necessarily by choice. Its more that I couldnt find anything closer that pays what I get paid. I live "in the middle of nowhere" so my only local employment options are, chicken proc
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:2)
Thats a load of crap. They pay a fraction of what those of us who choose to live near cities pay for basic cost of living. We pay more for the convenience of stores nearby, modern information infrastructure and things like that.
$100 a month for satellite isn't a lot of money when you're not paying $350,000 for a small condo.
I get internet for half that, but my house payment is four
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:2, Interesting)
Since most rural areas tend to be populated by people working in either agriculture or extractive industries how about if we turn this around?
Since you have no "right" to inexpensive food, or material goods the following now apply:
$100 a pound for tin foil? Boo hoo.
$100 a ton for low sulphur coal? (The same coal that fires your powerplants I might add)Boo hoo.
$15 a pound for chicken, bee
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:3, Informative)
You don't use HF, don't need it, and don't know any service that does, so screw them.
Pretty shortsighted and impressively incomplete view of this problem. Not all communications are local, which is what every VHF/UHF method you mentioned is. HF is in ONLY radio-based communication system that provides global coverage without needing substantial infrastructure such as satellites, etc.
Re:Ham Radio is irrelevant. BPL should be deployed (Score:2, Informative)
Um, lemme see here.
Bucks County Rescue Squad:
45.96
46.0
47.46
Third District Volunteer Hose Company:
46.06
46.1
46.12
46.14
46.20
46.24
46.30
Quakertown Fire Department
46.1
I could go on. This was a ULS search of a few towns in Bucks County with licensed emergency services in the 40-49 MHz
Ham Gear for Sale (Score:2)
Treaties (Score:2)
This topic has come up several times on Slashdot -- and it contains a bit of flame war between th
Great, just great... (Score:4, Insightful)
So much for entering THAT field of knowledge...
What annoys me (Score:5, Insightful)
What annoys me is that the FCC, in particular chairman Michael Powell (yes, son of Colin Powell), have ignored their own purpose and directive and have been entertaining agendas that are not central to their entire purpose. The FCC was created in the early 1900s (around 1912 I think) to regulate frequency usage to reduce interference by being a netrual party coordinating spectrum usage. This was to prevent the problem of several broadcast stations competing simply by increasing their transmitted power.
Now it appears the FCC doesn't give a rat's ass about those they are suppose to protect and work with (i.e. licensed spectrum users) and are giving a carte blanc to unlicensed intereference. The amendenments allows basiclly more freedom for utilties to create intereference. They have ignored both the amateur radio community (i.e. the ARRL) and the US Government's spectrum management agency, GTIA (I think).
Michael Powell has been considered a disappointment, naively believe that the "free market" can balance what are "natural monopolies."
The other annoyance is that BPL has faired poorly in the majority of trials, and globally most BPL trials have been shutdown with no plans on deployment. I believe numerous power companies are in fact merely trying to boost their stock value, not plan on actually delivering Internet services to rural users.
Michael Powell has the heart of a geek (Score:2)
Thank the Republicans. (Score:2)
Food for thought (Score:5, Insightful)
"BPL won't broadcast at 60Hz... there's tons of unused bandwidth in overhead transmission lines.
BPL will operate at higher freqs, typically the HF portion of the spectrum... and that'll interfere with Amateur Radio.
If they were transmitting BPL at 60 Hz, they wouldn't have enough bandwidth for it to be useable at all! Hell, a TV channel uses a whopping 6000 Hz itself!"
First of all BPL signals cover 80,000,000Hz+ (80Mhz) of spectrum, furthermore a standard TV signal is 6Mhz wide not 6Khz. The FCC is a mere shadow of what it once was, it was run by technically competent commissioners. Now it's run by technically incompetent we'll bend over for industry commissioners. Power lines were designed to do one thing, deliver power at 60Hz. When broadband RF is applied the act like antennas and radiate most of that energy as interference.
For example, if I took a bullhorn and mounted it atop of a pole and transmitted say, an MT63 signal to a dish microphone several blocks away, made sure I kept the dB level down as not to break some noise ordnance would you still like it? Probably not.
BPL is going to cause radio interference on a scale that hasn't been seen since the days of spark gap transmitters. It WILL violate the international agreement the US has with other countries to keep the spectrum clean for the reception of short wave broadcast. Despite what BPL providers and equipment manufactures say, it WILL cause interference, I worked my ass off to get my extra class ham license. I put up with enough "regular" interference from consumer electronics like TVs, computers, cracked insulators, etc.
And the biggie, EVERYONE keeps overlooking the fact that BPL can be interfered with something as simple as a CB. I could drive into an area, key a transmitter and DOS entire neighborhoods. I could use a software defined radio and just drive into a BPL serviced area and conduct surveillance, sniff packets with no physical wire connection.
I'm all for broadband but deploying it on the HF band is a bad (in the extreme) idea that will eventually cost you money when it fails. Even Japan tried it and then banned it from their country because it caused so much interference.
Broadband over Power Lines = terrible idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Broadband internet uses a high-frequency carrier and expects a transmission line designed for low distortion, and delays that don't vary too much with frequency. It's less critical how much of the energy you put in actually comes out the other end; a scope trace that looks the same shape is what's important. High frequencies need special precautions to avoid losing the signal to radiation; either a shielding braid around the conductor {co-ax, like TV cable}, or a second conductor carrying an antiphase signal in intimate proximity {twisted-pair, like a phone cable}.
Using power lines to carry broadband internet just sounds like using the wrong tool for the job. The scary part is how "almost right" it looks. But, if you use a Phillips screwdriver in a Prodrive recess, you'll end up knackering the screw and the screwdriver.
I HOPE you assholes adopt BPL. (Score:2)
Have a nice, NICE day, idiots.
power mad (Score:2)
So what happens if ... (Score:2)
Amateur radio provides a vital fallback position in emergency situations where normal communications are wiped out. If amateur radio is splattered with broadband interference to the point were people are forced to drop the hobby, then our emergency preparedness will greatly suffer.
This is a real bad idea.
Why interfering with Amateur Radio is bad... (Score:4, Insightful)
...for the rest of us.
Let's not forget that there's a sound reasonsing in the interest of the public and public policy why Amateur Radio exists (at least in the US, and I suspect in the rest of the world) (quotes from Part 97):
I suspect many Amateur (especially newers ones) forget this point...one of the primary reasons the Amateur Radio Service was created was to provide a secondary emergency communication network for the country in times of disaster. Many of us still train on a regular basis for emergency communications and work closely with various groups (including the aforementioned Red Cross, Military, etc) to ensure we can provide vital, orderly emergency communication. Our work at public events is typically in support of this mission. And if you think that we're useless, some recent instances of the usefulness of Amateur Radio:
- During 9/11, a large volunteer Amateur network was used to facilitate communications between the Red Cross and other emergency agencies. There were several stories of where an operator's expertise with antennas or such allowed them to get signals where others couldn't.
- During the recent Hurricanes - especially in smaller islands with unsophisticated power and communication systems used various worldwide amateur capabilities to coordinate aid, welfare and other traffic
- Someone already mentioned use of amateur radio during the recent blackout in the NE US.
- Esp in the midwest (but throughout), groups like SKYWARN (amateur radio weather warning nets) are a vital part of the NWS's ability to track tornadoes/storms and other weather data.
In all these cases, Amateur Radio was useful because it's what we exist for - emergency communications. Heck, once a year, we have essentially a contest where we make as many contacts as possible without the use of an established power infrastructure. We pride ourselves on making contact (even via CW) in extremely difficult radio conditions. Commericial systems rarely cover those situations that occur.This is true even today...many modern radio designs and systems are the result of earlier work in the amateur field. And while we may think the pool is small...a large number of those who make these systems (even those who build systems like SIRIUS and XM Satelitte radio) are Amateur Radio operators who's expertise and interest in radio and related theory is what fueled their abilities and interests in commercial systems.
My point is - for all those who are thinking the "death" of the service is not important - there are many things that wouldn't exist today if it weren't for amateur radio - and many situations which we would still be recovering from if we didn't have the ability of amateur's emergecy communications. In today's instant gratification, commercial oriented society, we have seen the canabilization of our service and endured decreased recognition of our usefulness....but that really is just ignorance than anything else. BPL may be important, but not at the expense of a still useful thing such as the ARS. I hope the FCC continues to strive to strike a balance in the needs of all parties.
Re:Let's make sure a few 1000 people get their way (Score:5, Insightful)
The tyranny of the majority is still a tyranny. Hence the reason we have a Republic, not a pure Democracy.
Re:Let's make sure a few 1000 people get their way (Score:2)
_Had_ a republic. It's been dead for a century now, since mass democracy was introduced, the inevitable end result being the tyranny of the majority.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Hobby vs Home (Score:3, Insightful)
So, yes, BPL is an example of tyranny of the majority, just as the manifest destiny philosophy was.
Re:Hobby vs Home (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hobby vs Home (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:There goes the spectrum (Score:4, Informative)
Alas, poor US Ham! I knew him, Horatio: a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy: he hath borne me on his back a thousand times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is!
They're certainly born the US emergency services on their back many times: and this is how they're re-paid.
Re:This has effects just beyond HAM radio (Score:2, Informative)
I disagree. Ham radio operators (myself included) pride themselves in being competent masters of radio technology. We might be called amateurs but you do need to hold a license in order to participate. Amateur radio operators have a network of likeminded individuals who ensure that we are there in the case of emergencies. Preparation is important to us a
Re:hahaha (Score:2)