EU Presses Ahead With Galileo GPS System 520
philkerr writes "The BBC is reporting that European transport ministers have agreed to the 2008 deployment of the European controlled GPS system. Costing 2.1 billion euros and creating 150,000 jobs. Is this just a pork-barrel project, or something Europe really needs to break the reliance on U.S. space technology? This was discussed on Slashdot in June when the U.S. and EU reached an agreement on its deployment."
would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS system? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how the US would react if, say, China started blocking GPS from certain places to hold back it's enemies. Tibet for example.
commercial issues, what else...? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how the US would react if, say, China started blocking GPS from certain places to hold back it's enemies. Tibet for example.
Interestingly enough, most of what I have heard of the US blocking plans sounds like they want to block the Galileo signal around China.
To me, this looks like primarily commercial interests, so that they can sell GPS better in that market. If it was to eliminate the possibility of someone to attack the US guided through Galileos positioning, they would need to block the Galileo signal IN THE US (e.g. in the TARGET area, not in the SOURCE area!).
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:3, Insightful)
Tibet, I might point out, is part of China--reluctantly, but part of China, and the Chinese don't have to turn off the GPS to figure out what's there. A good topographic m
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:4, Insightful)
China has more than enough tech to ensure their missiles make their mark. Don't make the mistake of thinking that the US is the only country in the world that has missiles that don't require monkeys to control them.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't directed at you or even your post. It's just a scream. Bush and Reagan, the neocons, always obsessed with missle attacks, because they never think for even a few seconds. There's so much money in building a missles "shield", and so much inbred fear of missles in U.S. citizens, that we can't think properly.
WHY a missle to deliver a nuclear bomb? Use a cruise missle instead. OR, a commuter aircraft for an airburst. Or put it on a freight train. Or a container on a cargo freighter. Or just move it around in a U-Haul. Or just have a couple dozen in subbasements of the consular offices of the [fill in feared country of your choice here], ready to detonate at any time. There could be a nuke in the Russian embassy in Washington DC, disguised as a samovar.
I don't imagine missles hitting us; I never did, even in the terrorized commie-hystera of Reagan's era. NO COUNTRY IS GOING TO FIRE A MISSLE AT THE U.S.. Get over this insanity. No one is going to insure their nation's immediate suicide! Russia isn't going to kill itself. CHINA IS NOT GOING TO FIRE A MISSLE AT THE U.S. They are doing just fine, have no impulse to eliminate their civilization by frying Los Angeles. NO, THEY ARE NOT MADMEN, EVEN IF THEY ARE COMMUNISTS. They never were!
We have lived in a continuous state of hysteria since the forties. We've sapped our GDP by funding this imaginary war for decades. A lot of people are richer for it, of course.
The only real danger of a nuclear attack has been from extra-national agencies such as Al Qaeda; but they, no matter how fearful we are of them, aren't that interested in causing the nuclear annihilation of Islamic nations, which Bush and the U.S. would certainly cause if such an attack was launched. There's no strategic reason for such an attack. 9-11 was about provoking us into doing something stupid, which we of course did, as predicted. But a nuke? Why?
There should be a name for this syndrome. A belief that everyone else in the world is suicidally insane and incomprehensible.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:3, Interesting)
That's why he attacked the world trade center.
So far it's been pretty effective. He spent maybe a 100,000 and the US spent 200 billion and virtually all of it was borrowed money. He also caused uncounted amount of economic loss to US industry.
the ripple effects of his attack are not over yet. The current deficit is already causing t
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bomb/sfeature/mapabl a st.html [pbs.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon [wikipedia.org]
Not to say that water wouldn't still dampen some of the overpressure wave and radiation, but we're not talking about a Bikini Atoll-type explosion.
Derek
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:3, Insightful)
Why should we, the US, be forced put other nation's interests above our own? We may be the dominant nation, but that doesn't mean we have to cave in and support every other nation in their bid to do whatever they want. As far as blocking the Galileo system, why should we let our enemies have an advantage? It's war; it's not fair. It's not like we're blocking it for the world, but as sai
USA needs to stard treating Europe as equal (Score:5, Insightful)
The USA shouldn't; and nor should Europe be forced to put the USA's interests above its own
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:4, Insightful)
You grow up. Anybody with the technology to build a missile with enough range, payload and accuracy to hit those targets effectively has the ability to make a nuclear weapon - which makes the issue of accurate targetting moot.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Creating and testing nuclear weapons has proven far more difficult that making effective rockets. Wait, way am I even beginning to argue this point?
It's silly shit like this that makes me weep. Damn you red states. Damn you to Rumsfeld. Damn you for convincing the the passionate illiterate.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:3, Insightful)
Anyone with the competence to build a nuclear or biological weapon isn't going to bothe
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:5, Insightful)
Last time I checked, the USA did not own space. But I suppose my disagreement with the policy of the US makes me a hostile, so my opinion counts for nothing.
Well, they would probably grumble a little, then get to work on a way to figure out a way around it, just as they have been doing for decades.
Rubbish. The US military and government would throw a hissy fit, demanding this and that and threatening sanctions. Just like they've done when countires have threatened other US interests and resources in the past.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2, Insightful)
Take down the American flag as a sign that the moon isn't American, or:
Take up flags of all nations and place them alongside the American flag.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
h.
Politics vs. RIAA/MPAA (Score:3, Insightful)
Isn't this a bit like what RIAA wants when they are seeking to destroy P2P file sharing?
P2P file sharing has legitimate uses (sharing of non-copyrighted material) and illegal ones (sharing of cop
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Actually, the proposed enlargement of the EU to include countries such as Ukraine is what's seriously pissing Russia off; they want to create their own trading block.
At this rate, Russia's block will consist of:-
Russia, Turkmenistan and half of Ukraine.
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Re:would USA rely on French, or Estonian GPS syste (Score:2)
Accuracy (Score:2, Informative)
I couldn't give a monkey about the politics, but anything that improves the signal makes me happy.
Yeah... (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is too unstable to hold the keys to a globally relied on tech...
Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
If somebody uses GPS to attack the US, we can quickly degredate GPS resolution in the area.
With Gallileo on the other hand, good luck getting the ruling body (by the people, for the people) to agree quick enough for it to make a difference.
Re:Yeah... (Score:2)
(I know i'm not allowed to whine about it, but i submitted this 2 days ago and was rejected... so i'll whine here)
Re:Yeah... (Score:2, Informative)
These technical parameters will allow either side to effectively jam the other's signal in a small area, such as a battlefield, without shutting down the entire system.
So jamming should not take any longer than it does currently.....
Re:Yeah... (Score:3, Insightful)
cooperation goes both ways (Score:3, Interesting)
And how much did the US listen to international input when deciding to invade Iraq? Cooperation goes both ways, and the US government has demonstrated that it will do whatever it pleases, no matter what the international community says. And it's not just Iraq: the US has recently ignored, violated, and abrogated lots of international treaties.
From the pers
Competition (Score:4, Insightful)
So yes, China would be a good one. Also Russia, Western Europe, India, Brasil and whoever else can put a satelite up there - the more the merrier.
I wouldn't trust Western Europe with the keys for one single system (and i was born and bred in these parts), just as i wouldn't trust any other single entity.
As for the strategic interest of the US, the best i can say is: though luck - the world is a lot bigger than just Kentuky and americans ain't more or less deserving than anybody else.
PS: Note that the european decision to go ahead (and spend a couple of billions on it) was most certainly influenced by an increased sense in Europe, over the last few years, that the US will throw their muscle around whenever they want, for whatever self-interest reasons, without listening to anybody else. It's like in high school - some people might fear the bully boy, some people might dislike him, some people might wanna be like him, some might even like him, but hardly anybody trusts him.
Re:then apparently you don't know much... (Score:2)
Ivory coast is a territory similiar to Puerto Rico for USA. This would be akin to Puerto Rico having an uprising. What would the USA do? we would send troops to calm things down.
Iraq is a very different matter. While we provided military and WMD during the 80's, it is not a territory of ours. Or at least was not until very recently.
NO,Ivory Cost is Independant. Puerto Rico is Not (Score:2)
So, no. Your analogy is invalid.
Re:NO,Ivory Cost is Independant. Puerto Rico is No (Score:2)
In very recent time, Ivory Coast was a French colony. France is still in the process of withdrawing from being its subjugator and allowing a stable government to exist there (think panama). [nationbynation.com]
Puerto Rico is a territory of US (as I said). But the citizens are absolutely NOT american citizens. They are puerto ricans. In fact, they have voted several times to not be a state of the USA. They are protected by america, but they do not have the ability to vote. Nor are they taxed as we are.
So yes, the analogy i
Re:Yeah... (Score:2)
Seems fair, since so much irrational (and unjustifiable) hatred for the Americans gets modded up.
First hand information (Score:5, Interesting)
(Yes, Galileo will be a really independent system, comprising of many different parts, under civil guidance for civil uses.)
One the political side, from a developers point of view, we really want to get this thing up as fast as possible because everyone I know who is developing is really really fed up with the way the US government tries to control our scientific and especially space-research specific endeavours. Since we have developed a system that is clearly superior to anything the USA have (never mind the 20 years of operation of GPS, you could have progressed too...) we really really hate it, when we get told to stop to work on it by a foreign government. To make things clear, no we don't hate Americans. We hate the way the American government is treating us, and the more they want to sabotage our projects the better our projects will be.
Re:First hand information (Score:2)
Re:First hand information (Score:2)
Yes. My Garmin eTrex Vista can pick up the EGNOS system.
Re:First hand information (Score:2)
Re:First hand information (Score:2)
I noticed that the EGNOS launch (i.e. end of the test phase) has been pushed back to the new year (it used to be listed as the start of 2004 Q4). The ESA site seems reasonably void of a more specific schedule - are you aware if any specific launch date is currently planned for th
Re:First hand information (Score:2)
Re:First hand information (Score:5, Interesting)
We Americans hate the way the American government is treating us, too. At this point we've mostly lost control of our government. This place looks like any other third-world banana republic, except we have a new dictator every few years.
And from a U.S. national's point of view, I really want you to get this thing up as soon as possible so I can have one in my pocket.
Re:First hand information (Score:3, Interesting)
Me too, and I live in the US!
China (Score:5, Interesting)
Russia and China each have a 20% stake [blogspot.com] in the Galileo project, having invested 200 million euros. India has also pledged 300 million euros.
Apparently the EU has promised India that Galileo would not be denied to them in the event of anything less than "global war", making its use available during more limited military conflicts. It is hard to imagine that China has negotiated anything less.
This had led to speculation that the USA would simply shoot it down [blogspot.com] to prevent its use by hostile military powers.
The EU Referendum [google.com] blog has been covering this assiduously.
Re:China (Score:5, Insightful)
Would the logical conclusion of this be that the EU has the right to shoot down the US GPS system if the EU felt the GPS system was being used by countries against the best interests of the EU?
Re:China (Score:3, Insightful)
When the context is international law and war, talking about rights doesn't get you far, because not much is based on them in this area.
Re:China (Score:2)
In reality, the US would not shoot down Galileo since that in itself would be an act of war and I would expect the US would rather we Europeans were with it rather than against it.
Re:China (Score:2)
The EU cannot wage a military conflict against the US, but a trade war could be extremely painful as well. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if, a decade from now, we will find ourselves in the middle of a new cold war, this time between the US and the EU. Not necessarily over the shooting down of spacecraft, but t
oh geeze... (Score:5, Insightful)
If you missed everything else in the last few years, how about this one reminder: "freedom fries."
All the other good reasons for it aside, that one act by congress made it very clear to all Europe that they're not dealing with adults.
Massive fight in the senate (Score:4, Interesting)
PS that can be used for landing planes. Woo! (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:PS that can be used for landing planes. Woo! (Score:2, Interesting)
Ask pilots familiar with the A3xx series of planes how comfortable they'd be letting the plane land itself. This is the same plane that tried to go full throttle into the terminal when the towbar on the tug fell off and the pilot hit the brakes to keep the plane from drifting int
Die by wire (Score:3, Insightful)
And the other ScareBus that decided it was best to take a nose-dive toward a shopping centre against the pilots best wishes. Luckily the computers in that one relented probably with an "Only kidding" message splashed across the EFIS display.
Oh, and don't forget that the Die-by-wire systems are there to protect you from the pilot doing anything
Planes _already_ land using GPS... (Score:3, Informative)
This is a reality _today_, and requires nothing from the Europeans, or waiting until 2008.
As a side note, directed more to the lurkers, what no one seems to consider is that there are many navigational systems which pre-d
Why we need it... (Score:3, Interesting)
We discovered during the Iraq "big mess" that even if we are against the US there are not a lot a things we can do to prevent the US from doing what it wants. A great army will help us acheiving just that.
Some people said that the Iraq war almost killed Europ with countries like Poland, Spain and UK not agreeing with the others. This is in fact very wrong since in these countries the people were massively against the war. For this decision, the Spain governement has been overthrown during the last elections and most think that the UK government will pay in the near future too.
So we have pretty much the same vision, next year we are going to vote for a new constitution and then we'll need an army. Galileo is one step in this process.
Of course it will also have a huge impact on our economics. This will create jobs but will also allow us to sell a new kind of services, mostly in the transportation market which is about to grow enormously with the e-commerce getting bigger and bigger.
I believe the US made a mistake in not improving greatly the GPS during the 20 years of operation. Positionning is about to become a huge market and Europ has a clear advance thanks to Galileo where the US could have been so far ahead already...
Re:Why we need it... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Why we need it... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually the incumbent party had a comfortable lead in the polls just before the election. Then they had tha Madrid bombings. What do you think they did ? They freaked out and immediately tried to blame it on the ETA (basque terrorists), without even a shred of evidence.
As it emerged that the bombs had been planted by Al Qaeda, the Spaniards got pretty pissed with their government and voted them out of office.
Compare with the US, where a government which actually lied not only to his own people but to the whole damn world has been easily re-elected.
most think that the UK government will pay in the near future too.
If elections took place today, Labour would win hands down. You underestimate Tony Blair's strategical masterpiece: the total occupation of the political center by the Labour party, which forced opposition either to the left of the left (LibDems) or to a growingly darker shade of the right. The Conservative party is not credible any more.
By the way, the conservative party supported the war too.
Thomas-
Short Video (Score:2)
If your interested, there is short video [bbc.co.uk] on the BBC web site.
No Independence Yet (Score:3, Insightful)
IIRC, the USA allowed the EU to build this system, provided that it would be easy for the USA to disrupt it. This means that Galileo is independent in the same sense as political parties in former East Germany; do anything you want, as long as it's what I want.
Re:No Independence Yet (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not that simple. If the US turns off its GPS system, the Europeans can moan but they don't really have cause to complain. If the US disrupts Galileo without consent from the Europeans, that would be a grave violation of international law and something that can't be papered over easily. The US may have a button to disrupt Galileo now, but their use of it is quite constrained.
More EU Madness (and I live here) (Score:2)
This is just a few billion Euro down the drain which could be better spent.
Ed Almos
Budapest, Hungary
Re:More EU Madness (and I live here) (Score:2)
Re:More EU Madness (and I live here) (Score:2, Insightful)
Smart Move (Score:5, Informative)
With USA being driven into the ground, The euro is quickly replacing the dollar as the stable money. With more money flowing to Europe, they will be able to afford large ticket items. This launch will give them a shot in the arm that they need to establish their rockets and truely create a space industry.
Our (US) system has the fault that the DOD can turn it off whenever they see fit. In particualar, one of the problems that we want to go to "free skies". That is the airplanes would be free to decide how and where to travel guided by GPS. Great concept, but one huge flaw. The DOD can turn off GPS whenever they see fit. So imagine the sky filled with planes and then the GPS goes off. Ooops. Europe's system is probably the one to go to.
This bad for us dominence, but great for business, Europe, and the World as a whole.
Re:Smart Move (Score:5, Informative)
this is very important (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Galileo broken down? (Score:3, Interesting)
150,000 jobs? Doing what? (Score:3, Insightful)
Cheaper than 2 weeks of Iraq occupation (Score:5, Interesting)
Europe really needs to break the reliance on U.S. (Score:4, Informative)
1st. it's good to be independent (you never know when bush shuts-off the gps for non-us use)
2nd. it's good to have backups (good for the eu and the us)
3rd. it's cool
American Technology Hegemony? (Score:3, Informative)
I don't believe that. If the US military-industrial complex was worried about superior foreign technology, they would have already bombed Toyota, Honda, Sony, etc. out of existence!
The American military is worried that a system such as Galileo allows much, much simpler creation of missile and other automatically guided weapons systems. The current GPS system supports "selective availability" where the accuracy can be deliberately degraded during times or war or other threats.
The Galileo partners should be worried that when the American military feels threatened, the usual "shoot first, ask questions later" philosophy will prevail, and the Galileo system will be jammed or destroyed to protect American interests. (At that same time, the current GPS system would be deliberately degraded or disabled.) I would bet money on that.
Why an agreement? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Global Tracking (Score:3, Insightful)
Alternatively (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Alternatively (Score:2)
Re:Alternatively (Score:2)
Re:Alternatively (Score:2)
As usual a terrorist is some body else's freedom fighter.
"America is under attack." The President told us his instinct was to project calm, not to have the country see an excited reaction at a moment of crisis. The press was standing behind the childr
Re:Alternatively (Score:2)
Well, it was degraded until 2000, but that is no longer US policy.
excerpt (about 50%) from forbes.com [forbes.com]
Prior to 2000, civilian GPS signals were deliberately degraded, leaving nonmilitary equipment with a margin of error of about 300 feet. But that year, then-President Bill Clinton ordered the so-called selective availability (SA) feature turned off. That made the systems the business community uses accurate t
Re:Alternatively (Score:3, Insightful)
The name you want for the visual guidance system is "suicide bomber".
Re:Alternatively (Score:2)
Re:Global Tracking (Score:2)
In the past the DoD has saw fit to essentially turn off GPS to civilian receivers. While the DoD might have good reasons to do this the fact remains that its control remains in the hands of an American military department.
Re:Competition or Redundancy? (Score:2)
Personally I'm convinced that it's just a military decision. We'll probably have just enough so that every major military power is satisfied that it has suitable control over at least one. China would probably have its own system if it possibly could.
European countries and the USA are hardly about to declare war on one another, but they've had enough disagreement lately. It's entirely possible that they will disagre
Re:Competition or Redundancy? (Score:5, Insightful)
The main point behind this is the increased accuracy. The US GPS is almost useless in a lot of European cities (winding, narrow streets). In London, I sometimes get 300/400m accuracy on my Garmin (which is not much good for accurate navigation) and, 25% of the time, I get an unuseable signal ("Too weak").
And as for Europe declaring war on the US (with what, a very limited nuclear arsenal compared to the massive US stockpile?), nuclear systems use all sorts of other navigational aids besides GPS. Even 'ordinary' non-cruise missiles use other reasonably accurate methods which have been around long before GPS.
Re:Competition or Redundancy? (Score:3, Insightful)
GPS 4 peace [Re: Competition] (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. The US have piled up tons of VX nerve gas, and chemical/atomic weapons (yes, WMD by any definition) and THAT is wasting taxpayers' money, IMHO, not launching another GPS service. Some things have to be done multiple times to learn and incrementally improve the technology. It's good not to have to rely on US technology, but to have everything available locally, because this
Re:Competition or Redundancy? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Overdetermination in navigation (Score:2)
guh.
Re:150,000 jobs? (Score:2)
Re:10 percent unemployment in the EU (Score:5, Informative)
By comparison the UK debt is 33% of GDP and the euro countries had deficit targets they had to meet (but often fudged) to join the single currency in the first place.
The next country to suffer reversal of fortunes and crippling problems is likely to be the US: no plans as to how to deal with your deficit, big costs coming up, and no good will around the world.
Re:10 percent unemployment in the EU (Score:2)
Pity about the rest of the EU, though.
Re:10 percent unemployment in the EU (Score:2)
What happens if the US defaults?
Any attempt to claim the collateral (the physical landmass making up the US) would be treated as an act of war. Going to war with the US is a bad idea, doubly-so on its own soil. The natural response would be trade penalt
Re:10 percent unemployment in the EU (Score:2)
Re:10 percent unemployment in the EU (Score:3, Insightful)
Like... Argentina?
EU vs. US unemployment (Score:3, Interesting)
Well, I'm not a statistician, but for what I have heard the methods of calculation of unemployment in continental EU are different from US and UK.
Among other things, I'm quite certain that detainees are not considered unemployed in the US (which have by far the largest detainee population in the western world), but they are in continental Europe. I heard also that people are considered unemployed as long as they collect welfare in the US, which lasts for some time (3 years maybe?), after which one is not o
Re:GPS (Score:2)
They threatened with holding their breath until we agreed.
Re:Double standards (Score:2)