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Programming IT Technology

Classic Gerald Weinberg Essay Reprinted 178

Posted by timothy from the talking-to-fatso dept.
danielread writes "Programmer abuse has been a popular topic recently, especially within the gaming industry. However, excessive overtime and overwork are not new problems for software professionals. Twenty years ago, acclaimed author Gerald Weinberg wrote an essay called 'Personal Chemistry and the Healthy Body,' which is as relevant for programmers today as it was two decades ago. Given this topic's recent resurgence, Mr. Weinberg was generous enough to let developer.* Magazine reprint this classic essay."
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Classic Gerald Weinberg Essay Reprinted More

Classic Gerald Weinberg Essay Reprinted

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  • I read it... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Icarus1919 ( 802533 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @05:52PM (#11306158)
    I read the essay, but I couldn't find the passage where it talks about how essential caffeine is to programming. I think I'm going to have to go back and look harder...

    • It was implied. (Score:3, Funny)

      by wasted ( 94866 )
      The author talked about the importance of personal chemistry. I guess he means that we need to be aware of our own personal chemical compositions, and make sure that we do not suffer from deficiencies of caffeine or other essential chemicals.

  • Self abuse (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @05:57PM (#11306186)
    I would have thought self abuse would have been more of a worry for geeks.

  • I don't know about programmer abuse... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    but there is definitely some sys admin abuse going on here.

  • Social Anxiety (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Scoria ( 264473 ) <slashmail AT initialized DOT org> on Sunday January 09, 2005 @05:59PM (#11306201) Homepage
    Many of us have observed that "geeks" are often anxious in a social situation. Be sure to socialize often; if you cannot, then professional counseling may be in order. Social skills are essential in a business environment. You're only as confident as you feel, and by extension appear to others.

    • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:5, Insightful)

      by B1ackDragon ( 543470 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:10PM (#11306262)
      I agree with your point whole heartedly, but would like to stress that social skills are essential to a whole lot more than the business environment. I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired. We have been social animals for our whole evolution, after all.

      Also, the essay is quite good, and short. So, for all of you that haven't, go RTFA for once (disclaimer: I'm notorious for not following my own advice in many aspects.)

      • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:5, Interesting)

        by reflective recursion ( 462464 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:29PM (#11306344)
        It's not just computer-savvy geeks anymore. The trend is reaching into the mainstream now, with things like IM and cell phones.

        Take a walk around a college campus or a mall some time. If you see someone that is not walking with another person, they will usually have a cell phone in hand. You may wonder how that is anti-social, but the reason they have a cell phone is to hide behind it. Just like geeks hide behind the keyboard, "ordinary" people hide behind cell phones to avoid conversation with new and strange people.

        I'd bet good money that an increasing number of the people walking around with cell phones have anxiety when not using it. I would also wager that the act of just using a cell phone contributes to developing anxiety and anti-social behavior. Much like overusage of a computer does.

        • Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)

          by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:34PM (#11306359)
          Comment removed based on user account deletion
          • Obviously they would have to know the person they are talking to. That does not make it less anti-social. They don't want to talk to new people--they want to talk to familiar people.

          • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:3, Interesting)

            by stonecypher ( 118140 ) *
            This is called the spotlight fallacy, and is a special case of the broader fallacy Biased sample [wikipedia.net]. Its shortest form is "between form A which is visible and form B which is not, all I ever see is form A, so surely form A is predominant." Of course everyone you know using cell phones also exists in the real world: if they didn't, you wouldn't know them.

            That's why chat rooms get the bad reputations: they're a quick line to people which don't use other communications media. Whereas sure there are some shut-

        • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Fallingcow ( 213461 )
          Take a walk around a college campus or a mall some time. If you see someone that is not walking with another person, they will usually have a cell phone in hand.

          Lots of people on my campus use their cell phone walking between classes even when they are walking with another person. I've seen couples walking together, both of them on their cell phones at the same time.
        • I'd like to share an amusing anecdote involving somebody I know and a cell phone. Last week she was waiting for a class to begin and she went up and looked in the window of the room. It was supposed to be a section with 20 people enrolled and there was one guy in there. Rather than go in and ask him what was going on, she took out her phone and pretended to be standing there talking to somebody, while actually just waiting to see if anyone else would go into the room. Talk about using the phone to avoid a s
        • On this subject, I would say that synchronous forms of communication are more sociable than asynchronous forms. I say this mostly on the basis that I am more comfortable in sending an email or leaving a post on Slashdot, as opposed to making a phone call or being involved in an IM conversation or chatroom discussion.
          • That's interesting, I tend to find the synchronous forms like IM easier than the asynchronous ones like e-mail, because you don't have to wait around wondering how someone is going to react -- you know right away, and can adapt/clarify quickly to avoid making yourself look bad.
        • ... but the reason they have a cell phone is to hide behind it.

          Yeah I've noticed that too.

          Cell phones are also often used in a more benign way, as a "fidget toy" to reduce anxiety in uncomfortable social situations (the same way you'd take a sip of your drink when you're not sure what to say).

          This is especially good because for some people they seem to have replaced cigarettes for this purpose -- sure cell phones can be annoying, but they're a damn site better than clouds of foul smelling smoke!

        • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:3, Interesting)

          by drooling-dog ( 189103 )
          You may wonder how that is anti-social, but the reason they have a cell phone is to hide behind it.

          I've long suspected that this is true. Just walking through a campus or down a street is anxiogenic for many, many people. Every person they encounter is another social dilemma: Do I make eye contact, do I avert my glance in a possibly obvious and unfriendly way, etc. Not only does a cell phone give you something else to focus on, but it also projects the impression that you have friends, or at least that the

          • but it also projects the impression that you have friends, or at least that there's one person in the world who's willing to talk to you. It works whether there's anyone at the other end, or not. ... much like posting on Slashdot, except to fool others instead of one's self?

            (At the beep, it will be 9:35 AM. ... Beep.)
        • You may wonder how that is anti-social, but the reason they have a cell phone is to hide behind it.

          I originally got mine for driving directions when moving across the country, and kept it because I found that being able to make and receive phone calls while not at home was convenient. If anything, cellular phones make it more difficult to hide, not less - you can be reached anywhere (unless your phone is a Sprint phone like mine.)

          There's the nickname "electronic leash" for a reason.

      • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:40PM (#11306383)
        I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired.

        Why not?? I was a "basement dweller" for a long time. OK, I didn't live in my parents' basement, but I spent most of my waking time doing computers. 10 years of that professionally and two cycles of hot market for computer contractors, I earned and saved enough money to retire at the age of 35. With my new found time, I started socializing, found a wife and started a family (and got back into work part-time to cover the bills comfortably)... Yeah, being a geek is awful... just awful... :-]

      • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:2, Insightful)

        by darrylo ( 97569 )
        I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired.

        They're all huddled around (what they think to be) "My Precious" .... ;-)

      • Re:Social Anxiety (Score:3, Interesting)

        by macshit ( 157376 ) *
        I'm definitely someone you could describe as "anti-social", and I'm sure this is a negative thing for me in many ways, in a society where social connections are very important.

        I've thought about this a fair bit, and compared my reactions to that of outgoing friends -- and I've reached the conclusion that a large part of it is because I simply like people less(!): In equally stressful situations, the more outgoing person will put up with the stress, and the crap, because they want to be with people, but at
        • I don't think I actually would describe someone such as yourself "anti-social." Possibly a homebody (much like myself), but otherwise you seem to be a more "social" person that half the people on this damn website.

          The importance of being "social" I was trying to stress has more to do with just being nice to people, as opposed to "social connections" and "networking" skills. Getting along with others when one has to is an extreemly important skill, not really related to the amount of social activity done

      • So, for all of you that haven't, go RTFA for once (disclaimer: I'm notorious for not following my own advice in many aspects.)

        From the fucking article:

        Advice is free and worth every penny of it.

      • I agree with your point whole heartedly, but would like to stress that social skills are essential to a whole lot more than the business environment. I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired. We have been social animals for our whole evolution, after all.

        What's wrong with being a basement dweller? I find it very disheartening that being sociable or extroverted is perceived to be superior to being introverted. It's under

        • but would like to stress that social skills are essential to a whole lot more than the business environment. I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired.

          What's wrong with being a basement dweller? I find it very disheartening that being sociable or extroverted is perceived to be superior to being introverted.

          It's a shame that the grandparent chose to appeal to emotion at the end of what he was saying; otherwise I could poin

          • ... and would uncover what appeared at a distance to be a defensiveness on parent's part.

            To a degree, yes.

            I'm not contesting that social skills are useful, and sometimes necessary for advancing a career.

            This doesn't make sense unless you meant "aren't useful,"

            Contesting [reference.com]: [...] To call into question.
            eg. "I am not [calling into question] that social skills are useful". Yes, that is what I meant.

            Jesus. All he said was "I think it's sad that so many people are proud of being shut-ins." Overreact

            • Contesting : [...] To call into question.
              eg. "I am not [calling into question] that social skills are useful".

              No, dear. That's not how the referential interrogative works.

              "I am not arguing that he is a murderer." Does this say "the argument I am making is not that he is a murderer", or "his being a murderer is established and I am not questionning it?" What you said reads as "My argument is not that social skills are useful," hence my wanting to invert the appositive. Get a grammar book.

              "I think
      • I find it somewhat disheartening that so many "geeks" are actually proud of the basement dwelling stereotype they've acquired.

        Yeah, and that I can't find my fifty cent off coupon for shampoo appalls me. I'm out of mustard - what an inhumane outrage. The light burnt out; this is so cruelly unjust it's criminal.

        Hint: 'dishearten' isn't the same as 'disappoint.' Dishearten was coined by Shakespeare, and means "anguish of the mind." As far as your choice of words, this is the standard-issue sledgehammer
    • A lot of how people define you has more with how they see themselves.

    • Please (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      A lot of us are simply introverts. It's just who we are. Extroverts seem convinced that we're "broken" and thus must be "fixed" with counselling, or medication, or whatever. I'd rather be alone than with a group of people I don't know. Small group of my friends? Fine, great, as long as it doesn't last forever.

      For the extroverts out there, I suggest you read Caring for Your Introvert [theatlantic.com].
      • For the extroverts out there, I suggest you read Caring for Your Introvert.

        For link posters out there, I suggest not referring people to articles that require a paid subscription to the site in order to read past the first paragraph.

  • I know abuse, but (Score:5, Insightful)

    by www.sorehands.com ( 142825 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:25PM (#11306324) Homepage
    What are normal hours? When programming, sometimes you get into a zone and forget time. This is different from a 450lb CEO sitting in your cubical threatening to sit in your arms - to make you type faster. Or firing you for getting medical treatment [sorehands.com].

    One is brought about by inspiration, the other is by bad management.

  • Weinberg on Fun (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:27PM (#11306332)
    Well, let's be honest with ourselves. It's fun to abuse our bodies once in a while. Who can honestly deny the seductiveness of a candy feast, a beverage binge, or an all-night work orgy?

    WTF? Once in a while I like to blow 300 bucks at the titty bar. Work all night? No way in hell.

    • Re:Weinberg on Fun (Score:3, Insightful)

      by grub ( 11606 )

      WTF? Once in a while I like to blow 300 bucks at the titty bar.

      20 years ago it was easy for me to spend 3-4 nights a week at the pub, crawl home at 2 AM, sleep ~5 hours and get to work somewhat refreshed. Now (at 39) I can stay out once a month until 10 PM, sleep ~6 hours and get to work feeling like a bag of shit.

      Ah the ravages of age...
    • >WTF? Once in a while I like to blow 300 bucks at the titty bar. Work all night? No way in hell.

      There are times when it is very much worth it. Back in high school, I was on a FIRST robotics team. I worked for a week straight. (I wasn't very coherent after the first few days, but the robot worked at the end of this.) As an undergrad I'd stay up with a few friends and work on theory problem sets, which were really quite interesting. As a grad student I try to sleep, eat, and exercise regularly, but I work
  • I want my games way past their origional release date. Most of the time updates have allready come out to fix most major bugs, and game play has been further updated.

    Working people extremely hard only introduces bugs and causes your product to have flaws which for the first people to play it will make it an experience that is not worth it.

    Give the programmers some rest. They produce better products that way.
    • Give the programmers some rest. They produce better products that way.

      The premise of your argument is wrong; you assume that the #1 priority of the people in power is to produce the best product possible.

      The #1 priority of people in power is to sell as many units as possible for as high a price as possible, and if that means shipping a lousy product for Christmas, then so be it.

  • good advice.. for those who can take it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by evilmousse ( 798341 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:38PM (#11306377) Journal

    tfa seems like good advice. i've known people to whom a regular schedule came naturally, and i envy them to some degree.

    i've never felt right getting up before 10, and i've always wanted to stay up late. --ALL-- my life, but admittedly, less so lately as i'm approaching late 20s and for the most part have a daily routine.

    i dream one day we'll put rockets in the earth and slow the rotation so that we get 36 hour days. 12 work, 12 play, 12 sleep, THAT would come naturally to me. 8 of each just isn't enough in one day.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

      • Re:good advice.. for those who can take it (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward
        That study was debunked because they used artificial light in 30 hour cycles.
      • Please feel free to actually give us this study, since just about everything involving the phrase "circadian rhythm" says you're utterly wrong.

        If you need counterpoint other than an entire branch of medicine, consider watching the Nova special on the Mars Rover team. They do isolate themselves from the Earth solar cycle, and their day shift is only 45 minutes; nonetheless, two weeks in, every single one of them is constantly yawning, and complaining about the difficulty of the slightly longer Martian day.
    • If so, you could try switching to the six day week [dbeat.com]. I'd try it myself if my school and job were flexible enough...

  • Alternatives? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mabu ( 178417 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:45PM (#11306403)
    People criticize the pseudo-xenophobic, anti-social nerd culture, but honestly, have you looked around at what's going on "outside?" I don't blame a lot of these guys for getting lost in the glow of a screen.

    I have subcontractors I work with. Some of them are brilliant coders and designers, but putting them in the boardroom would create a scene. OTOH, if I had these guys brush their hair and teeth more often and they discovered GURLS, their productivity would likely be exponentially reduced. They might have a more normal social experience, but they'd also likely sacrifice the uniqueness that their antisocial position has manifested that resulted in superior coding and design.

    I contend that the ultra-passionate are the ones that really create quantum change in our society, and often this is at the cost of pandering to many other socially-appropriate conventions. I'm not sure whether it's best to try to become more socially acceptable or work to dispell the notion that if you don't look or act "normal" you have no chance for advancement?

    Then again, I concede that how we treat ourselves is a reflection of how we treat others. I would have less faith in the code produced by a morbidly obsese programmer who obviously has no personal self control, than someone who wasn't as personally self-destructive and negligent, because you can bet their habits bleed into their work as well.

  • Long hours != good software (Score:5, Insightful)

    by imnoteddy ( 568836 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @06:47PM (#11306411)
    This buddy of mine was once working about five minutes from where I was working so one morning I called him up and said "Want to meet for lunch?" and he said "No, I've got a bug, can't take time for lunch." So I called him the next morning and asked him about lunch again. He said that he still had the bug and couldn't take tiime for lunch. I asked him if he'd fixed the bug by not going to lunch the previous day. After a long period of silence I asked him when I should pick him up for lunch. He bitched about the bug in the car, and then we talked about other things at lunch.

    When I talked to him the next morning he said he'd found the bug within an hour after getting back from lunch.

    I will let the reader find the moral to this story.

  • don't get it.. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Pfhreakaz0id ( 82141 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @07:09PM (#11306513)
    10 years in coding/web design. Never had a job where I averaged more than 40 hours a week. Never had a week that I've worked more than 50. It's called comp time and setting boundaries. First time on a new job I'm asked to work late I say "let me check with my wife." and usually it's fine. Then I say "in the future, unless it is a true emergency, I need at least 1 day, preferable 2 days of notice to make arrangments.". Then, later that week, probably Friday, I'll say "I'm leaving early, 'cause I stayed late Tuesday." If they say a problem, I say, "
    well, I can take it next week". Note: DO NOT PHRASE THIS AS A QUESTION! Like "can I leave early". Just announce it.

    This has always worked for me, and frankly, I have no sympathy for people who work long hours and gripe. It's your choice.

    • Re:don't get it.. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by stonecypher ( 118140 ) *
      10 years in coding/web design. Never had a job where I averaged more than 40 hours a week.

      Wow, there's a surprise, an HTML jockey which both thinks they're a programmer and thinks they're exposed to the rigors of programming. Here's a hint: TEX isn't a programming language, PDF isn't a programming language, and type-1 postscript isn't a programming language. Neither is HTML. "But DHTML and and and" No, DHTML is HTML with DOM access. Until you add a language such as JavaScript, it's impotent.

      It's cal
      • ummm, I haven't done pure HTML (no coding in some sort of backend).. in about 6-7 years. That's just how I got my start. I write Java everyday and have for four years. Before that, ASP, VB, and Delphi (some Perl).

        This has worked for me. Yes, I have a family and a life. If you need me to be available after hours, you better schedule it with me. I've never had a problem getting a job and will go get another.
      • Isn't it interseting that I corrected you wrong assumption (that I'm an HTML monkey) and you can't be bothered to reply... the more I read your post, the more it infuriates me.

        Here's a clue: the work is NEVER done.... I have gotten many jobs, never had a problem here in the midwest, make a damn good living, and just last week got a call from a previous employer practially begging me to come back to work for them, so I think I'm doing ok.
        • and you can't be bothered to reply

          I replied in another chain. Frankly, there was nothing in your response worth replying to. It was a bunch of baseless useless self aggrandizement and backpedalling.
  • Too many times, I'll spend so much time doing nothing I wonder what happened to my day. I won't get up in time or I'm too tired.

    I've been trying to break those habits, but the reason I've done that today is because my clothes aren't clean. I have only three pairs of pants that I like.

    Also, I've lost my good pen. And it was 99 cents. It shouldn't be so important to me, but it is.

    What I need is to learn to manage both time and money. To cut back on miscellaneous purchases and get a week and a half's wor

  • Agreed totally! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by oz_canetoad ( 3697 )
    This marks my 22 year as a commercial programmer and my 26th as a programmer, and I have worked for many a large multi-national during that period. And I would have to agree with all his points, even today in our ever Politically Correct societies of the western world, appearence and presentation of one self accounts for more than one ability. Now don't get me wrong here you need the ability, but if candidate B is a better presented package externally you may find yourself at the bottom rung for a while.

    Ad
  • What a classic oxymoron!

  • Software for Grown-Ups (Score:3, Interesting)

    by imnoteddy ( 568836 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @07:43PM (#11306668)
    The most bug free software is written by the people who do the Space Shuttle onboard software:

    http://www.fastcompany.com/online/06/writestuff.ht ml

    • Great link, but slashdot mangles plaintext urls.

      Here is the correct link. [fastcompany.com]

      I think that one of the final sentences is telling;

      "And money is not the critical constraint: the groups $35 million per year budget is a trivial slice of the NASA pie, but on a dollars-per-line basis, it makes the group among the nation's most expensive software organizations."

      Government enviroments (unless it's a contactor) will always have better resources and a more comfortable envirment than a game company (e.g. EA) trying t
  • I've never understood why the IT industry has been so adverse to Unions? Employers don't value employee rights unless there is a viable threat from a large number of employees suddenly stopping all work. We are long overdue rethinking this position and realize that the phrase, "wage slave" isn't a compliment.
    • I've never understood why the IT industry has been so adverse (sic) to Unions?

      Because unions usually force collective bargaining and oppose pay for merit. Programmers are mostly individualists and think that they're worth more than the next guy.

      Employers don't value employee rights unless there is a viable threat from a large number of employees suddenly stopping all work.

      Some do, some don't. Often employee treatment differs from one manager to the next in the same company.

      Unions take money from your

      • Re:Whatever Happened to Unions? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Tablizer ( 95088 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @09:36PM (#11307213) Journal
        [I've never understood why the IT industry has been so adverse (sic) to Unions?] Because unions usually force collective bargaining and oppose pay for merit. Programmers are mostly individualists and think that they're worth more than the next guy.

        Well how much longer until globalization changes that self-perception? Unions grew during the first half of the century because blue-collar labor was cheap and plentiful. The workers had no individual bargaining power because their skills were a dime-a-dozen. "Professionals" on the other hand were harder to come by and could rely on their relative rareness alone to keep them from being abused.

        But globalization has turned brains into a cheap commodity. Asia is cranking out graduates the way that Henry Ford learned how to crank out automobiles, turning cars into a commodity to be had by all instead of the luxury item they were before that.

        Unions take money from your paycheck to pay their own staff and to (often illegally) siphon money into left-wing political programs. They are a net drain on the economy.

        A small fee is better than zero job. Many other careers have built-in protections. Lawyers have law-school quotas for example to protect them from a flood of cheap foreign legal geniouses. If they can have protection from raw cheap-labor foreign competition, why can't we? Why are ONLY THEY entitled to protection?

        Should we have cheap programmers and expensive lawyers? Why? What is the fairness or logic for that? Businesses can lower their costs and sell products for cheaper if their legal rates were lower. And cheaper products are magically going to make us all better off, remember? So, lets globally fuck lawyers also so that our products are cheaper. OKay?
        • Many other careers have built-in protections. Lawyers have law-school quotas for example to protect them from a flood of cheap foreign legal geniouses. If they can have protection from raw cheap-labor foreign competition, why can't we? Why are ONLY THEY entitled to protection?

          Because THEY can sue your ass to oblivion. What're we gonna do, replace you with a very small shell script?

          --Rob

        • But globalization has turned brains into a cheap commodity.

          Briefly, sure. Engineers in California said the same thing after Promontory, when suddenly educated men from the eastern seaboard came flooding into an area which previously had been dominated by prospectors. Suddenly, Californian engineers weren't rare and precious, and in fact weren't even any longer the unquestionable best; nationalization had, in their eyes, made brains a commodity.

          Thing is, it didn't last. That people could be shipped pla
          • and the unwillingness of domestic labor to take realistic salaries

            Salaries are generally not negotiable. They are paid based on perceptions, not on supply-and-demand bidding. I bid real low once to get my foot into a new technology. It did not work.

            I'm not sure how capping input into law schools prevents foreign lawyers; you do not need to have gone to law school to take the bar.

            The BAR is a quota (protection) technique also.

            In the form of rationed work visas, rationed immigration, domestic con
            • Salaries are generally not negotiable. They are paid based on perceptions, not on supply-and-demand bidding.

              Programmers are currently discovering that this is not true based on offshoring.

              I bid real low once to get my foot into a new technology. It did not work.

              Perhaps you ought to look for other explanations.

              The BAR is a quota (protection) technique also.

              The hell are you talking about? Anyone may take the bar whenever they want to. The results are scored by mail, and there is neither a limit on

      • Re:Whatever Happened to Unions? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by God! Awful 2 ( 631283 ) on Monday January 10, 2005 @02:01AM (#11308288) Journal
        I've never understood why the IT industry has been so adverse (sic) to Unions?
        s
        Because unions usually force collective bargaining and oppose pay for merit. Programmers are mostly individualists and think that they're worth more than the next guy.

        Why is this modded "flamebait"? That seemed like a dead-on comment. I have never observed much sympathy for unions among programmers, and an individualistic streak would appear to be the reason.

        Now my own insight into the effect of 10+ hour days:

        I work at a company where it is the norm for developers to work overtime. On any given day, probably 50% of developers will stay late. Now the question is, will this help or hurt your career.

        I can see no evidence of anyone's career being held back because they worked too hard. On the other hand, does it help your career? The answer appears to be yes, but not by very much. Most people get promoted either because they are the most technically competant or because they do the best job of promoting themselves to the boss. Working extra-hard may get you a raise or some stock options, but it won't get you promoted.

        The reason is because the people in positions of authority are the ones who are called upon to exercise good judgement. Working overtime is a sign of dedication, but it doesn't do anything to prove why you should be the one to make the tough decisions.

        -a
      • Unions ... are a net drain on the economy.

        Absolutely. Unions have campained long and hard for things like a legal upper limit to working hours, minimum wages, occupational health and safety standards, the right not to be fired for being sick, etc, etc, etc. All of these are a net drain on the economy.

        "the economy" is not the be-all and end-all. Especially when we say "a net drain on the economy" we might as well say "a net drain on a few people who are rich already".
    • Because Libertarian is the political party of the Internet, and because during the late 90s stock and options as compensation were regular. Are the two related? Possibly. But as long as "the free market is so awesome, and I'm so smart I can rise above current cruft of inept wankers" lives on, and project managers rise from the rank and file, unions won't be taking off any time soon. And certainly, those blue collar workers aren't likely to sympathise about the health costs of sitting in a cubicle for 50 hou
    • Trust me. Unions are worthless.
    • I've never understood why the IT industry has been so adverse to Unions?

      I think it has to do with the fact that IT people are (or more importantly, were) considered professionals (like engineers and architects), both by themselves and their employers. If I recall correctly, there is a legal definition of a 'professional' worker that relates to salary and exemptions from overtime because 'professionals' were deemed to be able to control their working hours. Unfortunately, workaholic managers now conside

  • Morals without reasons (Score:4, Interesting)

    by CaptainCarrot ( 84625 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @08:04PM (#11306774)
    From the article: "I don't believe people should do things for reasons they don't understand--things like looking healthy, eating spinach, or avoiding GO TO statements. Rules without reasons focus on the appearance of things, not the substance."

    No, rules without reasons help a person develop healthy habits and to benefit from them before he learns the reasons for them. That can come in its own good time.

    It rarely does any good to try to explain to a child why he should eat his spinach, you just get him to eat it. By the time he understands why it's good for him he's in the habit of eating it and has benefited from the nutrition in the meantime.

    A novice programmer might not understand why GOTOs are to be reserved for a small number of special situations, but you impose standards enforced via peer review that makes him avoid them when unnecessary anyway. By the time he understands why they're undesireable he's accustomed to coding without them to the point where it's become second nature, and in the meantime the code he's written is more maintainable by others.

    Insisting that people learn the reasons for moral (or otherwise desireable) behavior before they adopt those behaviors is simply not workable in the real world.

    • "I don't believe people should do things for reasons they don't understand--things like looking healthy, eating spinach, or avoiding GO TO statements. Rules without reasons focus on the appearance of things, not the substance."

      No, rules without reasons help a person develop healthy habits and to benefit from them before he learns the reasons for them. That can come in its own good time.

      The mantra of indocrination everywhere.

      It rarely does any good to try to explain to a child why he should eat his sp
      • I don't have time to respond you your entire diatribe, except to say you're coming from a remakably naive point of view. I can tell a 5-year-old that his spinach has vitamins that will help him grow, and he'll eat it for that reason? Do you actually think 5-year-olds are motivated by rationalisms, and that by giving him a reason he doesn't really understand (no, sorry, 5-year-olds don't understand nutrition) he'll do something he doesn't want to? Don't be ridiculous. Talk to me after you've had one or two

        • I've questioned a number of atheists over the years about the reasoned or philosophical grounds for their moral code and not one of them could give me a coherent answer. Can you?

          Let me pose an example for you because I believe you are asking for it :) I am Buddhist. That means that I have dogmatically accepted that enlightenment is possible, or that I have actually had such a mystic experience and no longer require the dogma. Besides that, the religion is, AFAICT, devoid of any dogma. In Buddhism, God i

          • I wasn't thinking of Buddhism when I said "atheist" primarily because the ethics it advocates are found in the form of dogmas. This means they're based on revealed truths regardless of the source of the revelation. In other words, they're founded on principles directly based on the experiences of the enlightened, and not reasoned from some set of first principles. Perhaps "materialist" would have been a better word than "atheist".

            I'm familiar with western non-theistic ethical systems having surveyed a numb

            • Perhaps "materialist" would have been a better word than "atheist".

              As someone which you accuse of being unfamiliar with religion, it is my great joy to teach you simple words like "agnostic," "skeptic," "praxist," "platonicist," "idealist" and "realist." A materialist is someone fascinated with ownership and wealth. Get a dictionary.

              I'm familiar with western non-theistic ethical systems having surveyed a number of them back in school.

              And yet you don't know what a skeptic is?

              We covered all the majo
        • I don't have time to respond you your entire diatribe

          You wrote five long paragraphs after saying this. Smells like an excuse to me; this is quite nicely fortified by that you've ignored every single criticism I've made of you, hoping instead to just talk about things you want to discuss and to ignore the earlier ignorances you floated, as if you're unable to face what you said. This is fortified by the argumentum ad hominem [tri-bit.com] which follows. Luckily, I'm under no such restriction.

          I can tell a 5-year-ol

  • Attack Symptoms? Set Your Priorities First (Score:5, Interesting)

    by buckhead_buddy ( 186384 ) on Sunday January 09, 2005 @08:05PM (#11306778)
    • Many school teachers find their reward in working with pupils rather than large salaries or advancing in administrative roles.
    • Directors like Peter Jackson (of Lord of the Rings) find their satisfaction in telling their story rather than advancing in superficial Hollywood circles or sleeping every day.
    • Many nurses and medical technicians are attracted more to the ability to heal and ease others physical pain than large doctor salaries or authoring articles for journals
    • Many same-sex couples find the loving bond of a relationship to be worth the social stigma, lack of legal recognition, and difficulty in producing off-spring.
    While this fellow makes some good points as to how to "fit in" to the superficial business world, a wise person will sit down and decide whether fitting in will actually help in advancing the goals and satisfactions of their life. It's fortunate that different people have different goals and if you need the money of a tech lead or team manager to meet yours then definitely pay attention to this advice. But if your goals and life priorities are different, think about what you can do to help meet them and whether or not this advice still applies.
    • the article seemed to me to be mostly about one small point: you'll be far better off if you keep yourself healthy. It's not a matter of being accepted per se. It's noting that 1. being accepted is a great big part of rising in whatever area you work in and 2. being (and looking) healthy go a great way towards being accepted. Hence 3. Being healthy is rather fine start towards whatever other aim you might have.

      • the article seemed to me to be mostly about one small point: you'll be far better off if you keep yourself healthy. It's not a matter of being accepted per se. It's noting that 1. being accepted is a great big part of rising in whatever area you work in and 2. being (and looking) healthy go a great way towards being accepted. Hence 3. Being healthy is rather fine start towards whatever other aim you might have.

        That message I read was much more about appearance of health and normality. Cultivate the quick s

  • I don't care how 1337 (elite) your h4x0r (programming) skills are.

    Some slick, neanderthal IQ-ed, suck-up (with good hair) is going to make more than you. Why? Because companies spend money to engineer goods, but make money selling them! What? do you want to earn a percentage of what you cost?

    BTW, I am still "in engineering", but now I am self-employed, so I probably make twice as much as you. I am solely in sales since I have morals (which is ironic, since I have no religion).

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