Azureus Decentralizes Bittorrent

BobPaul writes "While the eXeem project to decentralize Bittorrent remains in open beta, the Azureus Java Bittorrent project has recently released a major update that, among other things offers 'a distributed, decentralised database that can be used to track decentralised torrents. This permits both "trackerless" torrents and the maintenance of swarms where the tracker has become unavailable or where the torrent was removed from the tracker.' It doesn't contain the search functionality of eXeem, but it's also not a beta product and is licensed under the GPL. Could this and compatible clients be the replacement to SuprNova and Lokitorrents, or does the lack of search negate its effectiveness?"

A step in the right direction...

[Lostie]

... but the RIAA/MPAA lawyer teams don't need to start hiring again just yet.

does the lack of search negate its effectiveness?

I'd say it "limits" it's effectiveness, not negates it. It's not really de-centralized if you still have to rely on sites like suprnova in order to search for stuff, is it? This is a major reason why BitTorrent hasn't completely dominated eMule yet.
But since this removes another potential point of failure in the network (the tracker), it is still a good thing(tm).

Re:A step in the right direction...

[DenDave]

A pity these technologies always end up being dissed as being "vehicles of sin" ... I actually hope it works... I download alot of Linux/bsd isos and it's a pain sometimes because of poor mirrors and shitty trackers, however if these swarms appear upon a new release then it makes sense to start downloading during the swarm as opposed to waiting for the rush to pass.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[dbretton]

But the truth is, 99% of gun use is against people.

The truth is, you are a liar and a child molestor and you eat babies. How do I know this? I don't, but, like you, I will assert it to be true without providing any supporting information.

Though I cannot refute your assertion with solid numbers (as the only info I can find is either procured by pro-gun nuts or anti-gun nuts), I can refute it with simple logic.

The local rod & gun club gets about 50 people per day, averaged out across a seven day week. The reality is that most of the business is on the weekend, but an average is sufficient for this exercise.
Using your statistic, that means that, in my town alone, there would need to be 5000 shootings DAILY.

Let's assume the traffic at my local club is average. Since there are approximately 10000 US cities (link [google.com]), even if only 50% had a rod & gun club, that would mean there would be 250,000 recreational gun uses each day. Assuming this is the 0.01 minority, this means that there would have to be 25 million gun shootings in the US each day. Each year, every one in the US would have been shot... twelve times.

Now, getting back to BitTorrent. I would tend to agree that BitTorrent is analagous to gun use in that its primary use is recreational in nature. The difference here, however, is that BitTorrent's recreational use is more likely to be illegal in nature than not.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[Anonymous Coward]

Using a gun on a person does not imply shooting them. Genereally a gun is used to intimidate. Or do you propose that every cop and soldier carries a weapon for hunting?

Re:A step in the right direction...

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I'm sorry but the gun was not invented for recreational use. It was invented as a weapon of war to maim and destroy people. You think the gun was created so people can have gun clubs and target practice? Oh dear god I hope not. The vast majority of the times a gun is used in the world is not for fun. Unless you consider killing and scaring people fun then yes its recreational.

I'm sorry but sex was not invented for recreational use. It was invented as a method of procreation to create more people. You think sex was created so people can have sex clubs and kinky orgies? Oh dear god I hope not. The vast majority of the times sex is used in the world is not for fun. Unless you consider making a woman fat for 9 months just to create a new person fun then yes sex is recreational.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[maxpublic]

It is used as a weapon of war.

It's also used (quite effectively, even according to the FBI) as a means of defense against violent human predators.

I have no problem if you don't want to carry or use a gun. Go ahead, be prey - your safety isn't my problem. It isn't even the problem of the cops, according to recent court rulings. But you don't have any business trying to turn me into prey just because you can't stand the notion that I may not be as spineless as you are.

Max

Re:A step in the right direction...

[maxpublic]

Right, so when redneck Billy Joe leaves his whole arsenal of personal firearms under the bed in his trailer, and one of his kids takes one to school and kills your kid, are you still going to stand up for Billy Joe's rights to have guns?

My kid has a far better chance of drowning or dying in a fall than getting shot. You won't, however, see me campaigning to outlaw swimming pools or ladders.

Unlike you I see an actual value in gun ownership: self defense.

I'd have to say the number of citizens who've SU

Re:A step in the right direction...

[cybercuzco]

It doesnt matter what its primary purpose is. The primary purpose of a sword is to kill, does that mean that I shouldnt be allowed to have a sword over my mantle? The primary purpose of botulinum toxin is to kill, does that mean botox should be pulled from the market? If people enjoy something, even if its primary purpose is something else, they should be allowed to do it, as long as they arent hurting anyone.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[swillden]

I'm sorry but the gun was not invented for recreational use. It was invented as a weapon of war to maim and destroy people.

It really makes no sense to talk about "the gun". Although the first guns were weapons of war, they have fairly little in common with modern firearms. During the long (and continuing) evolution of guns, many different uses impacted their development, and some of them had nothing to do with war. For example, one very significant advance -- the long, rifled barrel -- was quickly adopted by armies after its military capabilities were demonstrated during the US Revolutionary War, but that advance was developed to produce a better tool for gathering food. There are many other such examples.

Guns today are designed and built for many different purposes, and their designs reflect it. Some are primarily designed for killing or wounding people. Military arms and many handguns fit this category, with many subcategories for particular environments and goals. Some are designed solely for supported target shooting, using very small bullets and enormously long, thick, heavy barrels. Some are designed for hunting, with widely differing designs based on the characteristics of the animal to be hunted and the environment in which it is hunted.

And, yes, the analogy between guns and BT is very misleading, except insofar as they're both tools that can be applied to many different purposes. But that is such a large category that it would be wise to pick a different, less inflammatory tool than the gun for the comparison. Like a hammer. Or a car. Or a TCPA Trusted Platform Module ;-)

Re:A step in the right direction...

[ultranova]

Many of the most valuable inventions known to man were created for purposes of war. This in no way invalidates their usefulness in times of peace.

Of course, this also renders the grandparents claim meaningless:

Now, getting back to BitTorrent. I would tend to agree that BitTorrent is analagous to gun use in that its primary use is recreational in nature. The difference here, however, is that BitTorrent's recreational use is more likely to be illegal in nature than not.

Even if BitTorrent was mostly used for illegal purposes (which is impossible to know for certain), this would in no way invalidate the fact that it is used for legal ones (such as distributing Linux distributions) as well.

BTW. I can't help but notice that every time there's some kind of argument, it will turn into a debate about firearms sooner or later.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[DenDave]

I don't see the paralel with guns. Apache webserver can be used to distribute illegal content, it is in many cases, should it then be banned? oh perhaps we should just do away with the internet altogether?

Guns were built to kill things, software was written to distribute content. Killing things is usually best left to a (legitimate) government who has the monopoly on legitimate use of force. Content is up to the members of society to be done in good taste and within the norms of such society.

I'd say m

Re:A step in the right direction...

[Hell O'World]

we should just do away with the internet altogether

shh... don't say that too loud, they are everywhere.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[FidelCatsro]

Wrong analogy , i prefer this one .Guns Are designed to kill, which can be used to kill prey for food or murder.
So there is still a fairly just debate over the fact that guns are by nature evil .
Bittornet is designed to take the load off of server , and by its nature is good .
However there is an argument that it can be used to help people download infringing materials.

So Guns are designed to kill , Torrent are designed to aid.

many people use guns for legitimate reasons such as Hunting for food or to cull

Re:A step in the right direction...

[i wanted another nam]

No, guns are designed to kill. Waving a gun around to scare somebody is not using it for its intended purpose. You are threatening to use it for its intended purpose. Thost bullets don't have "fear me" written on them, they're made of soft lead designed to leave a large exit wound. The gun does not care what it shoots. It is a tool. Point it at what you want to kill, and pull the trigger.

Bittorrent was designed to download. The analogy to the gun is stupid ad best. You can't threaten a download with azureus. "I MIGHT USE SOMEBODY ELSE'S BANDWIDTH TO DOWNLOAD YOUR FILE! FEAR ME!" ... just doesn't work. The bittorrent client doesn't care what it downloads. It is a tool. Feed it a torrent file, and point it to a directory.

Then again, I could be completely wrong, because, as I recall, sport utility vehicles were designed for offroad driving, not taking up 4 parking spaces at the fucking Krogers, you fucking asshole. How are those keytip-sized scratches looking?

A few notes

[JPelorat]

Rather a lot of bullets are spent on paper and animal targets. More than 1% of the total, guaranteed.

A significant portion of the vs-person use of guns is justified and legal and occurs every day all around the world. Self-defense and apprehension of criminals being the two most common examples.

Using extreme exaggeration as an appeal to authority is self-defeating. Easpecially when you attempt to lay down 'the truth'.

My signature may be of some help in this matter.

Re:What?

[xtracto]

Be realistic. Yeah, Bittorrent has plenty of legit uses. But do you really think that's what most people use it for? I'd say most are looking for porn, movies, software, etc. Look at it this way, guns can be used to hunt for food. But the truth is, 99% of gun use is against people. You can argue about their legitimate use and bad rap 'till you're blue in the face, but the legitimate uses are statistically outweighed by bad ones. The same applies to Bittorrent.

I agree with Parent, why do /. mods always mo

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

With any amount of insight, it should be obvious by now that pr0n and w4r3z are the main force driving the demand for bandwidth and other hardware.

Whatever your stance on copyright issues and such, the fact of the matter is that the technological revolution that has put a PC in most any home in the so-called developed world COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED without piracy. What we call "p2p" today is just a relatively new way to do the same thing that has been going on since the floppy disk became standard.

I used t

Re:What?

[dAzED1]

maybe because of this line: "But the truth is, 99% of gun use is against people"

I'd have to venture a guess that 95% of gun use is against targets, 4.9% is against animals, and less than .1% is against people. I don't know where the hell you live, but whatever city it is - I promise the number of hunters in that area outnumber the number of people who shot a person in that same area by at least 100 to 1. Here at work with me (in NY, no less), about 1/4 of the people hunt. Not a single one of them has ever shot a person - oddly enough, having been in the military I am the one here that comes closest.

Re:What?

[dAzED1]

unless that city is Bagdad....not many animals around there, and lots of people shooting each other.

Re:What?

[Retric]

I think the amount of led shot off in WWII is more than has ever used for hunting. But, in the US most people use guns to hit targets or animals and not people.

As to target's I think more people shot at targets learning how to hit people than shoot at targets learning how to hit animals.

Re:What?

[MBGMorden]

A lot of peopld shoot at targets just for the fun of it, not really doing it to learn to shoot people or animals. Clay pigeons for example. A very large number of people participating in that sport do not hunt, and it certainly doesn't train you for defensive (or offensive) shooting against human targets, but people still do it and have fun nonetheless.

Shooting can be FUN. Not violent. It's an activity that takes a lot of skill to do right. Learning windage adjustments. Learning the temperment of your weapon. Recording datasets and adjusting your loadings to shrink a target group. Bedding the action or recrowning a barrel. There is a lot of work to shooting accurately, and a lot of people enjoy that activity just as an activity, with no ulterior motive (no more than any basketball player, football player, or golfer has).

That's where I think the gap exists. There's a large group of people out there that have the unwaivering belief that guns are out there only to kill people. Target practice? Oh yeah they're training to kill people. Hunting? Yeah they're just satisfying a violent streak. They'll break and kill people eventually. Self defense? They're just looking for an excuse to kill people.

Despite so much evidence to the contrary you still have people with the severest case of tunnel-vision I've every seen.

Some statistics

[Saanvik]

Good point, you should have done it rather than posting about it.

Here are some statistics for your hungry little minds.

From the Illinois Council against Handgun Violence [ichv.org]

In 2002, there were 30,242 gun deaths in the U.S.

Digging a little deeper, from the Department of Justice [usdoj.gov]

The number of gunshot wounds from assaults treated in hospital emergency departments fell from 64,100 in 1993 to 39,400 in 1997, a 39% decline. Homicides committed with a firearm fell from 18,300 in 1993 to 13,300 in 1997, a 27% decline.

And from the Burlington Free Press [burlingtonfreepress.com]

Vermont's loss of hunters is part of a national trend. The number of hunters declined from 14.06 million to 13.03 million, or 7.3 percent, from 1991 to 2001, according to the Census Bureau and the Fish and Wildlife Service. The drop was greater in the West -- 9.6 percent, from 2.46 million to 2.22 million.

Not a direct comparison, but it's hard to find numbers detailing the number of times a gun was discharged at a person versus discharged at an animal or target. Nevertheless, it's pretty apparent the original poster was incorrect. The vast majority of shooting in the US is not at people, but at animals and targets.

So, back on topic. The analogy was not a good one. A closer analogy could be made for handguns (handguns are not designed for hunting, but a lot of people do use them for target practice), but it still wouldn't be a good one.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[Ed Avis]

Look at it this way, statistics can be used to back up a sensible argument. But the truth is, 99% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[mrjive]

ObSimpsons:

Kent: Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charges that petty vandalism such as graffiti is down eighty percent, while heavy sack-beatings are up a shocking nine hundred percent?
Homer: Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[tepples]

Porn is illegal now?

Not illegal, just copyrighted with all rights reserved. Take the example of Eyes Wide Shut, probably among the best written erotic films in existence. Yes, Warner Bros. Pictures is going to have a problem if somebody puts up a rip on Demonoid.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[shird]

Which you have to ask, why not just use emule/edonkey network?

Before you say 'wah wah bit torrent is faster', etc, it is only like that because it is centralised and so a tracker can make sure everyone is seeding, there are statistics which encourage people to seed, and most importantly, there are far less files, and so the bandwidth isnt spread out as thinly.

The more these guys work on decentralising BT, the closer you get to just being a less efficient and less established clone of emule. Whats the point?

As far as 'warezing' is concerned (99% of traffic), BT is a terrible protocol. The trouble is, these kids see the speed of BT and think thats the way to go. They realise the centralisation is a problem, and so try to fix that. Without realising they are just reinventing the wheel. They think they are going to get the best of both worlds, because they are just warezing kids and don't know any better.

How is eMule...

[Kjella]

As far as 'warezing' is concerned (99% of traffic), BT is a terrible protocol. The trouble is, these kids see the speed of BT and think thats the way to go. They realise the centralisation is a problem, and so try to fix that. Without realising they are just reinventing the wheel. They think they are going to get the best of both worlds, because they are just warezing kids and don't know any better.

How is eMule any better? It certainly doesn't protect your anonymity. The eMule server acts in much the same

Re:How is eMule...

[shird]

How is eMule any better? It certainly doesn't protect your anonymity. The eMule server acts in much the same role as the BT server, except the speeds are better on BT. Remove the tracker, and you got a "flash mob" of peers. Each dumpsite could just point to one member of the swarm, making it ten or a hundred targets instead of one lone tracker. BT has always been about security in numbers, except the users have been many and the sites many, but the tracker only one.

eMule eliminates this need for a 'dump

Re:How is eMule...

[InvalidError]

Basicaly, they don't realise it, but they are coming full circle, and the outcome is just going to be a another eDonkey network. Which means, why not just use the existing one.

Here goes one reason: 9500KB pieces
Another: MD5-class hashes

The eD2k network uses oversized basic blocks and weak reference block hashes. Wasting up to 9.28MB because someone sent a bad bit is somewhat wasteful. So far, I have yet to see a torrent with >1MB pieces. Since MD5 is EOL, it is very likely that undetectable corruption exploits will appear in the near future (ViralG?). Killing legacy eD2k would be a good thing - those oversized blocks need to go, hopefully to be replaced by a scalable recursive tree hash.

Re:How is eMule...

[Hast]

Because eDonkey sucks?

Seriously every time I have tried to use that network I have quit the download after a day or so of waiting in queues. This is before getting anything at all of the file. It sould be faster to just go down to Germany or whatever by car and copy the file to a CDR and go back.

I know I'm supposed to be online for a while before the eDonkey style queues start working in my favour; but I just can't be bothered.

Also note that BT isn't like a typical P2P as you can't really search for file

Re:A step in the right direction...

[Thomas Miconi]

Which you have to ask, why not just use emule/edonkey network?

Hell, why not use a Gnutella2, as Shareazaa does ?

Gnutella2 is a smaller network but is still pretty large, and it has the advantage of much shorter queues. Edonkey is cool for very large files which you don't mind waiting for, or for rare files. Gnutella2 is ideal for smaller files which you want to download quickly.

The more these guys work on decentralising BT, the closer you get to just being a less efficient and less established clone of

mldonkey

[tepples]

Plus, there is no official support for non-Windows platforms.

The eMule client itself is not official. If you want official, look at eDonkey Basic for Linux [edonkey2000.com]. Or just use mldonkey [berlios.de] like everyone else does.

Re:A step in the right direction...

[MBGMorden]

xMule, mldonkey, and aMule.

All work fine. No they're not "official" eMule, but eMule itself isn't official. It's just client for a P2P network for which eDonkey2000 is the official client (and it DOES have official versions for non-Windows platforms).

Yeah, but where's the Spyware

[__aawfbm2023]

I don't think Exeem has anything to worry about.

Re:Yeah, but where's the Spyware

[0x461FAB0BD7D2]

In Azureus, Tools -> Console

It's recording everything I do!

Torrent distribution

[Joakim A]

Torrents could be distributed in the swarms too. Possibly according to user preferences if the swarm has many torrents/many types of data. Could get really nice. We do need a python version though..

(Cant access the linked sites due to company policy (they allow /. :) so i don't know if this is supported.)

Re:Torrent distribution

[Errtu76]

We do need a python version though..

No we don't. This (java) version works perfectly already. Why does this _need_ to be ported?

Re:Torrent distribution

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the screenshots: Azureus has an IRC client embedded! This is where I draw the line and say that this program is seriously bloated.

Re:Torrent distribution

[Errtu76]

I didn't look at the screenshots. I do have the application running at home, so i can tell you that this client is a plugin. And according to my knowledge of plugins, it means it can be disabled.

Correct me if i'm wrong. I start to doubt as well now (not that it's bloated - only an (minimalistic) irc client doesn't make an app bloated) wether or not it can be removed/disabled.

Re:Torrent distribution

[JanneM]

No we don't. This (java) version works perfectly already. Why does this _need_ to be ported?

It doesn't _need_ to be ported. There are at least two possible reasons to do so anyhow, one "moral", one pragmatic:

* It's difficult to distribute the Java runtime environment for some Linux distributions due to licensing issues. That means that for some of the most popular distros, installing Azureus is decidedly non-trivial for someone that's not fairly familiar with non-standard installation.

* If you are using no other Java app on the system (I don't), the footprint of Azureus + JavaVM is very sizeable. Having something run under a VM that's in use anyhow makes the app use much less resources.

Bonus reasons is that more alternative clients will shake out bugs and issues with the system, and will encourage further experimentation and exploration of the system and the UI.

At the same time, porting it (or reimplementing in another client) takes away exactly zero from the Azureus developers or users. It's a win-win situation.

Re:Torrent distribution

[Errtu76]

I don't quite agree with you on the java issue. I mean, jre from sun/java.com comes as an installer that only requires you to ./run-it and follow instructions. True about the distro's and licensing. That's why Gentoo prompted me with an url where i should download it (manually). Even for newbies this should be doable.

Newbs can't download or install anything

[Safety Cap]

That's why Gentoo prompted me with an url where i should download it (manually). Even for newbies this should be doable.

You obviously have neither parents nor an Uncle Bob who "knows computers" but who is always ringing you up for advise.

Re:Newbs can't download or install anything

[willdenniss]

You obviously have neither parents nor an Uncle Bob who "knows computers" but who is always ringing you up for advise.

I do, several.

None however run Linux, (nor use bittorrent). With OS X, Java is already there. With Windows it is really simple to install. Will.

Re:Newbs can't download or install anything

[richieb]

You obviously have neither parents nor an Uncle Bob who "knows computers" but who is always ringing you up for advise.

Do your parents or Uncle Bob really need BitTorrent? :)

Re:Newbs can't download or install anything

[Errtu76]

I do. And i strongly advise them *not* to use Linux, for just this reason :)

I always say "how good are you with using MS-DOS?". If the answer is anything like "What's DOS?" or "Not really", i tell them to stick to windows. Saves both them and me a lot of frustration.

Re:Torrent distribution

[JanneM]

"only ./run-it" is enough to bring most people to a screeching halt. Not to mention you first have to figure out that you need something named Java, that you get it from Sun's website and then figure out on that site what you are supposed to download (which really isn't trivial even if you do know what you are doing - is it EE, RE or DE? Do I need stuff like JavaBeans?).

For all intents and purposes, if it can't be pulled down and installed automatically as part of the application install process, that prec

Re:Torrent distribution

[Dot.Com.CEO]

This is really a non-issue, on most distributions Java is either included or easily installable through the distributions tools.

If your distribution limits your choices according to some religious view of software you might not share, then change distribution.

Re:Torrent distribution

[LarsWestergren]

At the same time, porting it (or reimplementing in another client) takes away exactly zero from the Azureus developers or users. It's a win-win situation.

I don't buy into the logic that creating competing open source projects automatically is a win-win situation. I can in fact come up with several negative consequences (this applies to all projects, not just Azureus).

Many projects means developers will be spread thin, negating the old "Many eyes make all bugs shallow". Developers for Azureus will have to

Re:Torrent distribution

[k98sven]

GNU Classpath and JamVM are smaller and faster than Suns JRE but they may not run Azureus yet.

No, JamVM (although extremly small ~200kB) isn't anywhere near as fast as the Sun JRE. JamVM is an interpreter, not a JIT VM. But it's fast as far as VMs go.

If you want a Classpath-based VM which is fast you should look at Jikes RVM [sourceforge.net] or Kaffe [kaffe.org], or perhaps consider compiling to native with GCJ.

Azureus uses native GUI widgets by way of the Eclipse SWT so if JamVM supports the required communication methods between VM and System alright, then it won't be too hard to run.

JamVM handles native calls without problems. I've run Eclipse and other SWT apps on it myself.

However, Azureus doesn't run on Classpath yet. It's very close to it.. But there's still one or two small issues with the Classpath libraries. If someone wants to help out with this, email the classpath list ([e-mail]) or drop in on #classpath on FreeNode. You'll be 'liberating' Azureus and helping free java at the same time.

Re:Torrent distribution

[afd8856]

Because it needs X to run. I want to run it remote, in console version.

Re:Torrent distribution

[ratpack91]

you can run azureus headless and control it from the web interface- link [sourceforge.net]

Re:Torrent distribution

[golgotha007]

ALthough Azureus is one of the better java written applications I've used, it still feels like java.

Everything updates just a little slow. You can be downloading via torrent something and have like 18%.
Then, go to another workspace and then later when I click back onto the Azureus workspace, it still shows 18% for about a second, then bam, all the values update. It's not my machine (p4,3.0ghz, gig ram).

Azureus, as an application, totally rules. It would be excellent in C or even python.

Re:Torrent distribution

[LarsWestergren]

Azureus, as an application, totally rules. It would be excellent in C or even python.

Then why isn't there a corresponding application in C or Python? How do you know that re-implementing them in another language doesn't create new bugs (security issues for C, for instance) that using Java has eliminated?

Re:Torrent distribution

[Trejkaz]

You can blame SWT for that. Especially now that Java 1.5 is around, SWT is a hell of a lot slower than Swing.

em..

[Stu Charlton]

Let's get some perspective. 266MHz isn't "a year or two" ago, it's been SEVEN YEARS since Intel released the P2 @ 266mhz. I have a 233MHz from that era, and you can barely even run Firefox on it (IE runs "OK"). Furthermore, 1997-1998 would be the era of Java 1.1 and 1.2, which were significantly slower.

These days, and since the year 2000 with the release of Java 1.3, Java UI's have been very usable. And Java is much faster than Python; it's comparing mixed mode dynamic compilation (Java) vs. interpreted (Python)! Pysco's JIT release in 2003 may have sped things up somewhat, but it's far from mainstream.

As for running on a 266Mhz machine, what's "plenty" of Python apps? Were they all graphical? I think you'd find graphical Python to be pretty pokey (pyGTK or what have you). Command-line Java is pretty fast.

Re:Torrent distribution

[jridley]

I'd like to see it ported to something other than Java. I really like Azareus's interface, and it works well, but it scales horribly. I really can't use it. I tried it out and it seemed good, then I tried using it as my main service, and it just destroyed my system. Try seeding 30 or 40 torrents out of a modest (2GHz, 1GB RAM) machine sometime. It's horrible. If you're web browsing, editing/encoding video, using PhotoShop, scanning film, etc on the same machine, you'll be crying.

By contrast, BitComet

You'd be crying anyway.

[BobPaul]

Try seeding 30 or 40 torrents out of a modest (2GHz, 1GB RAM) machine sometime. It's horrible. If you're web browsing, editing/encoding video, using PhotoShop, scanning film, etc on the same machine, you'll be crying.

If you were doing all of that on a 2GHz with only 1GB RAM, you'd be crying even if you weren't running Azureus.
--
Need Referals? The ref stops here [refstop.com]

Re:Torrent distribution

[X.25]

No we don't. This (java) version works perfectly already. Why does this _need_ to be ported?

Erm... because you can't run it in the background over SSH session on another server through 56kbit link? Or just choose any other reason...

Re:Torrent distribution

[l3v1]

We do need a python version though.

Oh please, why that ? I have not much against py but I do have against py-written apps. I had so much trouble with such apps, that I avoid anything related to it if I can. You can call this FUD spreading, but that was not my intention, it just what happened. If you want so much to port the stuff, make it c+gtk or c+qt or c# based, it still would be multi-platform. I don't have anything against the java client, still, I always used other torrent clients (like bitcomet) be

Downloaded using these new torrents

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad Pirates
Whatcha want, watcha want
Whatcha gonna do
When sheriff RIAA come for you
Tell me
Whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna dooo
Yeaheah

CHORUS:
Bad Pirates, bad Pirates
Whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do
When the RIAA come for you
(Repeat)

When you were twenty
And you had bad traits
You go to College
And learn the golden rule
So why are you
Acting like a bloody fool
If you get hot torrents
You must get cool

CHORUS

Using it now

[fgl]

After upgrading a few hours ago, I opened up the appropriate UDP prts as requested (pol;itely I might add) & watched the number of clients that I was trackerlessly connected to rise from ~50,000 ot more than 76,000
I've used it for a long time now, but the latest itteration just seems to go beyond the call of duty.

Re:Using it now

[Handpaper]

Is this a 'visible hosts' number or do you actually have 76000 open sockets?
I'd love to see Win95/98 try to handle that :)
Waiting for netstat to finish it's output could be fun, too.

Re:Using it now

[fgl]

Its the Estimated number of peers I can see.

Re:Using it now

[willdenniss]

It's UDP so there's no sockets anyway. Datagrams are connectionless and have far less overheads.

76,000 would still kill most apps though...

Will.

Re:Using it now -- Danger Will!

[AndroidCat]

What happens when you want to shut it down? I tried it out last night, and when I was done and gracefully stopped and removed the torrent, waited, and then shut down Azureus, my fricken connection was hammered with UDP packets.

Exactly how long does this decentralized system take to recognize that someone is no longer connected, don't want to talk and (especially) has perhaps handed the DHCP IP address to the next person? I think I'll give it another try, but if I get results like last night I'll either disable that feature or give Azureus the boot.

Why not ANts?

[Nehle]

This kind of thing is not new ANts P2P [sf.net] is a decentralized, encrypted anonymous protocol that works in the same way as BitTorrent. From the page "ANts P2P realizes a third generation P2P net. It protects your privacy while you are connected and makes you not trackable, hiding your identity (ip) and crypting everything you are sending/receiving from others." Why not give that a try?

Completely different market

[Kjella]

BT is not anonymous, nor are these attempts at decentralizing BT. They are simply a match-making service pairing off peers. Ants (and Freenet+++) try to create an anonymous network, which means acting as data proxies.

That means
a) helluva lot more complexity in terms of making it work
b) lots of complexity in making it actually anonymous
c) massive loss of bandwidth due to proxying data around

Judging by the website:
"NOTE: The only way to speed up the ANts connection system is to let the net grow. Only with a reasonable number of high speed peers (i.e. peers that handles up to 30 connections) properly configured (firewall, ip etc.) initial connection can be easy and fast. So don't care about connection speed by now... let your node run and it will find peers or they will find it! DON't ASK TOO MUCH TO A NET MADE UP OF 20/30 peers..."

I call shenanigans. The demand will scale with the supply, in fact you start running into MORE problems with finding content on a large network, not less. See Freenet. Oh, and I hope the actual number of nodes is higher. With that few, you can map out the entire network and analyze it apart almost no matter how brilliant the software is...

Kjella

Kind of been done...

[Gilesx]

This is a little like Shareaza.

Shareaza has support for Gnutella, Gnutella 2, Edonkey and Bittorrent. As it provides a "bridge" between these networks, it means I am able to search for torrents from the two Gnutella networks, and edk. When I have this torrent, I can open it using the bittorrent part of Shareaza, and if that torrent is down, Shareaza will still hash the torrent and attempt to download the appropriate files from the Gnutella and eDonkey neworks. It's a nice idea, and really unites all the various p2p methods, using each method's strength to give an all round solid result.

I'm surprised that it's taken Azureus this long to catch up, and I'm sure we'll start to see a lot more bittorrent clients either offering their own solutions to this issue, or as in the case of Shareaza, using existing p2p networks to give backup to the Bittorrent protocol.

Re:Kind of been done...

[moonbender]

I'm surprised that it's taken Azureus this long to catch up, ...

Catch up? You don't seem to understand what the new features in Azureus are. From what I can see, they are nothing like what you mention. Different solutions for different problems.

Re:Kind of been done...

[Gilesx]

It's been rock solid for me using Foresight Linux + Wine - 72 hours so far and counting :)

Perhaps the stability issues are related more to the operating system it's used on, and how that operating system handles network sockets?

Azureus is fast

[illtron]

I gained a lot of respect for Java apps when I tried Azureus for the first time. It was at least 6-7x faster than the official client or Tomato Torrent on OS X, and it connects to way more hosts for me. Like I said, I'm on OS X, so I've never tried exeem.

Making it easier to get to torrents is all well and good, but let's keep in mind that most of the *legal* stuff available through bittorrent is easy to find as it is.

Trackerless & bittorrent sites with login

[Anonymous Coward]

How will the trackerless stuff interact with sites that require login? In the normal case you would login to the website and after that the tracker only allows you to connect from the same IP, but does the new trackerless thingie allow anyone to connect to these swarms? Might be (way too) good way to get past share ratio requirements.

Lack of search...

[Aragorn992]

" or does the lack of search negate its effectiveness?"

No the lack of search is exactly what differentiates the BitTorrent network (though its not really a network is it? It piggy backs off webservers) from other P2P apps.

This is not anything new.

[solidox]

The bittorrent client BitComet has been doing this for a long time now.
Simply what it does is shares lists of peers between clients for matching infohashes...
It dosn't nessecerely decentralize it or remove the need for a tracker, as you need to get at least 1 ip from a member of the swarm (who has a compatible client)
It can help to get new peers if a tracker fails half way through, but you still need the initial peers ips from a tracker or similar.

Tor

[natrius]

It also looks like they integrated Tor into the client, which should lead to fairly interesting results. When a client as popular as Azureus has anonymity built in, I think some people might be angry.

When the **AA see an IP address downloading from an infringing torrent, they direct their lawsuits towards the account holder for that IP. This puts people running Tor at risk of being sued. Is "It wasn't me, it was another Tor user" a valid defense? Are people going to be held accountable for the traffic that passes through their Tor server?

Re:Tor

[moonbender]

Oh. The Tor guys won't like that. People figured out how to run BT over Tor a while ago (I tried it myself in January after seeing a presentation on Tor). Google for anonbt and you end up on a subsection [sourceforge.net] of the Azureus homepage, saying:

Please *DO NOT* use Tor for routing peer-to-peer data traffic, it can not handle the bandwidth. They have indicated that they will make efforts to ban such usage if it continues, which will likely affect both legitimate and unwanted use!

Re:Tor

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually that is exactly what TOR is for. There is no way(except sophisticated traffic analysis) to prove what traffic is yours. This should stand up in court, as TOR just routes encrypted traffic. The EFF actually runs their own TOR onion router, and I wouldn't be surprised if they got involved in any sort of lawsuits involving TOR. Although, as soon as the dopes in Congress and the whitehouse understand this technology, and get lobbied by the RIAA, it may not be legal for long.

Re:Tor

[EvilGrin666]

Are people going to be held accountable for the traffic that passes through their Tor server?

IANAL but I think we're back to the 'substantial non-infringing uses' arguement again. Unlike P2P software, Tor has wide ranging uses covering a multitude of applications and protocols. I doubt the RIAA can sucessfully bring it down.

OTOH I doubt Tor can afford to defend itself unless the FSF comes to the rescue.

Bitcomet problem?

[forand]

Isn't this the same feature that has been getting Bitcomet clients banned from various trackers?

Java 1.5

[mattr]

You MUST install java 1.5 on linux.

Re:Java 1.5

[mrsev]

No I refuse I want to run M$ Virtual Machine instead.

JPC

[Dakisha]

I was also interested to see they included 'Joltid Peer Cache (JPC)' - in their words "Joltid Peer Cache (JPC) is now integrated into Azureus. For users whose ISP support this, JPC should allow faster downloads, while helping the ISP reduce its bandwidth costs. The JPC Plugin is safe in the way that your ISP won't know what you are downloading, and can't use it to spy on you."

Given that torrents are supposed to account from anywhere between 30-70% of all internet traffic, depending on who you believe - this could go a long way towards easing bandwidth consumption issues. Of course, I have no idea how many ISPs are actually using this, the website http://www.joltid.com/index.php/peercache/ [joltid.com] is rather limited in it's information, and a google for the name reveals that there is still some question over the legality, so a lot of ISPs are keeping their heads down and using it on the quiet.

For flash traffic, such as a new game demo being released - or even torrented anime, which often sees in excess of 10-20 thousand people downloading it within 48 hours for the more popular series, this could save ISPs a lot of money.

eXeem

[aleatory_story]

I heard about eXeem a while back when SuprNova disbanded... the creator's next project or something. I also heard that it was being backed by spyware companies... so I haven't jumped to try it out. Could someone who has tried out eXeem give their thoughts about it?

Re:eXeem

[BlueCup]

I tried it when it first came out, so I have no idea if there is a newer version... but it was nothing special... not very fast (downloading, and system resource wise) not enough files, and not enough sources for the files... overall, crappy.

Haven't updated the OSX port.

[minshrine]

Was looking foward to using as as soon as i heard they updated.But looks like the OSX port is not avalible yet.Must be working a version that is compatible with Tiger.

Looks like a useful set of improvements

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, search for decentralised trackers might be convenient; but it would probably make it rather easier for everyone(read *IAA) to find all the good stuff rather quickly. Without search we've got a formidable tool; bittorrent efficiency added onto the standard "I know a guy who knows a guy" search method of the good old social darknet.

Breaking file share ratios at private sites

[shyampandit]

This tech should be very useful on the public trackers (no registration required) as the torrents will continue to work even when the tracker is offline.

But what about the sites where a ratio is enforced so people seed and not just leech? This might break it as the clients might not talk to the main tracker anymore.

Is it even possible to enforce share ratios with distributed tracking?

I don't understand...

[Cereal Box]

Wait a minute, I thought Bittorrent was OVERWHELMINGLY used for legitimate purposes, with only a small percentage of users having the audacity to (gasp) break copyright law (if you're to believe what's said on Slashdot).

Why the need for decentralized trackers? I don't get it! Bittorrent is supposed to be a haven for law-abiding citizens to trade Linux ISOs and Project Gutenberg text files.

Hide the senders IP address.

[caluml]

Nice work, but the thing that needs to be worked on is hiding the users IP addresses. How abuot bouncing ICMP packets with the data in the payload from hosts with the return address set to the recipient, and the source address set randomly? That way no-one knows the senders IP. You'd need some kind of out of band broadcast system for asking for files too.

I gotta say...

[trawg]

I find it in-fucking-credible that Slashdot editors are willing to post an item that includes comments to the effect of: "gee, I hope [insert name of software/network/strategy] allows us to easily replicate the behaviour of [insert name of some other software/network/strategy that has previously been shut down for basically doing nothing but providing a system for people to easily infringe copyright, and more often than not charging users to do it]!"

BitTorrent is great. p2p is great, in general. But continually highlighting how great it is for piracy (yeh, regardless of how lame the RIAA/MPAA are) just puts more negative attention on it and further affixes the concept of "p2p is bad" in people's minds, rather than what they should be thinking.

I don't know if slashdot editors actually are willing to edit posts rather than just put them up (I can see reasons for doing it and reasons for not doing it), but this post would have been just super without the last sentence.

OMG pretty

[Julian Morrison]

Seriously, if you want to know why Azureus is so damn cool, just click on the new "swarm" tab on a running torrent. Ye gods, but that's beauty! Perfectly abstract, instantly comprehensible, informative in realtime, mesmerizing as a screensaver. You have to respect the kind of people who'd think up something like that.

(Karma bonus turned off because this is OT, but damn, I just had to say that.)

Reputation Management in BitTorrent

[chris311]

I've just completed a Master's project on incorporating Reputation Management into BitTorrent. The idea is that if you give file slices first to people who are likely to stay connected and share, it will increase the overall bandwidth of the system and eventually increase everyone's performance. My simulation results show an average speedup of 5% for everyone in the network (good citizens get up to 15% speedup). I don't have a website, but if anyone wants to contact me about getting my research into the spec, I'd be happy to send you the paper.
[e-mail]

Finally...

[xRelisH]

those Paris Hilton Torrents wont be broken!

I don't see the point of this..

[d_jedi]

besides for scum sucking pirates. The story even hints at this use:
Could this and compatible clients be the replacement to SuprNova and Lokitorrents, or does the lack of search negate its effectiveness?"

ignoring the fact that Lokitorrent and Suprnova would still be in business if they had trackers to legal files (like Linux distros) instead of illegal pirated music/movies/software.

All of the pirates can go fcuk themselves. The more you hide, the worse the penalties will be.. and the more inclined content creators will be to use draconian measures to protect their intellectual property.

I2P technology

[shoota]

Does anyone have a clue what this I2P techonology is and how the azureus plugin incorporates it into bittorrent. Thanks.

Re:Distributed Bloat

[un1xl0ser]

I'll take this troll, gentlemen.

I run azurus with a P3 500 w/ 168 MB RAM. I use it for lots of other thigngs too. I notice when it sucks up bandwith, but not resources.

Re:Great!

[un1xl0ser]

Here [aelitis.com]
The link is from the Azureus site.

Re:Great!

[BarryNorton]

Two posters have already given this information and the slap in the face to the moderator who called this 'funny'. All the same, though, after my client automatically updated itself to this stuff via torrent (which I thought was pretty neat), it tried to download platform-specific support and plug-ins in two seperate further torrents and this is failing. Anyone else have same?

Re:This is great

[IANAAC]

I hate when I stop a torrent, because I need to use my connection for something else...

Why would you have to shut it down for other things? You realize you can throttle the up/down torrent bandwidth within the application, don't you? In Azureus, you can change the values without having to restart the app, too.

Re:Bittorrent killed Enterprise!

[IANAAC]

I think that Enterprise was actually killed by P2P technology, such as Bittorrent.

I doubt it. Look at Battlestar Gallactice, which was downloaded left/right/up and down around the globe. It still managed to get renewed.

Nah, I think it's because Enterprise didn't know what direction it was going.