Google Never Forgets 290
downsize writes "CNN.com is running an article that provides some insight into how long Google stores our search, email and overall web activity and posits that it 'could prove a tempting target for abuse.' From the article: 'Some don't see Google's long memory as a bad thing. Weinstein doesn't think so. "There's really no good reason to hold onto that information for more than a few months," he said. "They seem to think that because their motives are pure that everything is OK and they can operate on a trust basis. History tells us that is not the case."' In regards to Google's email service, Gmail, Google may find themselves with many upset users due to 'a 1986 law [that] gives less protection from government searches to messages more than six months old...Even when a user deletes a message it may remain on company servers, according to the Gmail privacy policy.' Same goes for POP mail, just because you download it off the server, it's not 'out of Google's long memory'."
International laws? (Score:5, Interesting)
Does google do business in those countries, and does it follow their laws?
Re:International laws? (Score:5, Interesting)
I signed up for the Napster trial and it asked for my credit card... fair enough I though... "if I use the service I'll be paying for it, and if not I can remove it".
When the trial ended I decided not to keep it... I wasn't impressed, not least with the gaping holes in their catalogue (EMI).
So I cancelled that, and discovered that I couldn't clear my credit card details!
Napster.co.uk is a UK site, the company are registered here too and have a VAT number, etc.
Yet upon contacting their customer services, I was told that because the servers are in the US, that this falls under US law, and then told that I was not covered by the UK Data Protection Act, EU Data Protection measures... and finally, that they couldn't delete the credit card data as "it is needed for US tax returns".
Quite how the US govt' needs details on a credit card that has not been involved in a monetary transaction is beyond.
I call bullshit... but this is when you discover that Data Protection laws are worth shit unless there are ways to easily activate them.
I still don't know the next step in nuking my credit card details and having my data deleted.
Re:International laws? (Score:5, Informative)
I know of court rulings in Denmark that have stated that it is not legal to send personal data to the US to avoid the restrictions of the local personal data protection law. The UK laws on personal data protection are almost the same as in Denmark.
If I was you and wanted to pursue this, I would - after having tried to settle this amicably with Napster.co.uk - complain to the UK Information Commissioner [informatio...ner.gov.uk].
If readers in other european countries have similar problems, please check the list of national data protection offices [eu.int].
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
If the UK were obliged, there would be no appeal.
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
(Only joking - I just love that line :-)
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Now, this is normally overlooked because it would be quite inconvenient to stop transferring information to America, but it is still against the law.
You know, you should never believe what a company says. There is a free trading standards hotline to ring. It is worth talking to them. They have your interests in mind, and they know (and uphold) the law.
Re:International laws? (Score:4, Insightful)
Just ask USA-based Linspire, Inc., if it matters. (Microsoft forced the company, then known as LindowsOS, Inc., to stop doing business in Benelux and with Benelux citizens -- no matter where in the world they had addresses -- under their former name.) The 'Net and absurdity-friendly countries mean that the court system of one country can be used against a 'Net-based company in another country, even if none of the parties involved have physical presences in the one country.
WTF is Benelux (Score:2, Insightful)
Benelux apparently stands for
BElguim, NEtherlands, and LUXembourg.
Re:WTF is Benelux (Score:2)
Wow, I had no idea you guys were so unfamilliar with that term... out of interrest, how many people don't know what Scandinavia is?
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Google does operate in the EU, so it would have to play ball. The question is, has anybody actually asked Google to delete their personal data? If they did, how would they obtain proof that Google had in fact deleted
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
That isn't really a lot to go on.
Re:International laws? (Score:2)
Overlords!! (Score:1)
Re:Overlords!! (Score:5, Funny)
There is another path I suppose. You could create a new troll. But few of us are worthy enough to do such a thing.
Re:Overlords!! (Score:2)
Troll recursion - fun for young and old!
Re:Overlords!! (Score:2)
"I, for one, welcome our XXX overlords"
Mmmmmm. pr0n. All hail.
Re:Overlords!! (Score:2)
Get over it (Score:5, Insightful)
With that said, who is to say other companies don't do the same thing? You honestly think once you delete an email with another service, say, Hotmail, it is instantly evaporated off their servers? Of course not.
Re:Get over it (Score:1, Informative)
Just because some fine print says that Slashdot owns all the pr0n on your machine and your firstborn kid on one of their terms of use pages doesn't mean it's true. There are major limits on what such clicky-agreeements actually can hold up legally.
Re:Get over it (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Get over it (Score:3, Informative)
No Standard for Purging Paper Counterparts (Score:2)
Do you have any evidence that Google is the only business that's retaining this information?
Storage is cheap.
Ask your employer how long they retain your email. Ask you ISP how long they keep your email, etc. (I found out that mine -- a national provider -- keeps the accounts of ex-customers -- that's ex-customers -- active, retains their email and
Re:Get over it - and put some thought into it! (Score:2)
I'm willing to bet that few people consider the fact that as data that is available (or archived), it is also discoverable in a legal proceeding. That may not mean much at the moment people sign up, but under the right circumstances, it could be disasterous.
Re:Get over it - and put some thought into it! (Score:2)
I have my privacy WELL under control, thank you.
What TOS? (Score:2)
Re:Get over it (Score:2)
So why does hotmail pretend to delete your account if you have been inactive for a while? Just to harass you?
Of course not.
The world is filled with imoral creeps, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to do something about them.
History is a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:History is a bad thing? (Score:3, Interesting)
web.archive.org has old copies of sites, with far more of an intent to long-term-archive web content, if someone's worried about things staying around longer than they intended.
Re:History is a bad thing? (Score:2)
With the web designed as an ad-hoc, mindless data drop system, it's virtually guarenteed we'll be holding on to those pathetic GeoCities websites until long past the days of our deaths.
This brings up a bunch of problems with the web in general. Dead links being a huge problem; if PageRank or anything like it is supposed to chug through all of the links on old websites, along with th
The safest assumption... (Score:5, Insightful)
I guess we're going to find out if things like google searches are going to bite people in the future or not. This feels like Patriot Act stuff to me, potentially, they way that libraries and book stores can be required to provide information about your reading habits. As a writer, I really don't like it. What if I want to write a book featuring terrorist villians, and do a lot of "suspicious" searches doing my research?
It's troubling to me.
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2, Funny)
Wait, no I don't.
Worse assumptions... (Score:2)
Once the Patriot Act people get ahold of my records, they might assume I am a GAY MURDERER!
Re:Worse assumptions... (Score:2)
They already do, 'cause that's what your Tivo told them. :-)
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:4, Funny)
www.google.com
Search: Y%KjkK7u0(l
Did you mean: Y%kjKK7u0(L?
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Well, you could always use an anonymous proxy if you're that concerned
If you do block the cookie, and if your ISP only keeps your IP address info for six months or less, then Google or anyone else will never be able to link the IP requesting the search back to who you are after this time.
Anyway, what the hell are you searching for th
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Essentially if you don't have a reason to keep a bunch of data around, it's probably prudent to get rid of it. There is real potiential for this to kick Google in the ass. If they have a policy of co-operating with law enforcment investigations (which they do) there is the chance that the results of some potientially over-reaching investigation leaks out.
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
And before someone pops and says something like "You don't anything to worry about if you haven't done anything wrong," who really wants to explain their google searches to anyone else, let alone federal agents? That's tro
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Exactly. And it's not a question of whether you've done anything wrong. The real question is whether someone at a law enforcement agency thinks it looks as if
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
There's probably a version of Murphy's Law there. Something like, "If there's one email that will damage you most, that is the one that will
USPS scans envelopes, keeps the images (Score:2)
They do. [slashdot.org] At least, they keep an image of the outside of the envelope.
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
Everyone should always assume that anything they post on the internet will be somewhere forever.
No kidding. And this predates the Web. You'd be surprised at what people were posting on Usenet back in the '80s... If you post or email it, assume someone's kept a copy somewhere.
EricWilliam Shatner: Nameless Cereal Box Celebrity [ericgiguere.com]
Re:The safest assumption... (Score:2)
The problem with that assumption is when things change in your life that you didn't expect. I've been operating under the everything-will-be-on-the-internet-forever model for most of my online life and things have been fine. But recently I've become a teacher. Now there's a lot of stuff I don't care about my friends/family/co-workers reading... but my students? That's a whole other story.
-Colin [colingregorypalmer.net]
Re:Seriously. (Score:2)
And it starts.... (Score:1)
Google Usenet archive doesn't reply to requests (Score:1)
I'll probably trying sending certified mail with a list of the posts and see if I have any better luck.
Getting it straight (Score:4, Insightful)
Kill my friend. (Score:2)
[to his henchman]
Cosmo: Kill my friend.
Good thing they have that motto! (Score:2)
Keep in mind Google's motto is: "Do No Evil".
Yes, it's a good thing they have that motto -- otherwise who knows what sort of evil things they might do?
But no, they say they're not evil, so there's clearly nothing to worry about.
Re:Getting it straight (Score:2)
So is everybody - even if they go to war and blow up buildings - its never evil its always necessary.
Re:Getting it straight (Score:2)
working on just that and I don't give a rats ass about whether or not it will be profitable but I'm sick and tired of link spam making it into the results of just about anything I'm researching (including search engines...)
I have a small test cluster and I'm running the crawler on the
Free (Score:4, Insightful)
Cookies on www.google.com (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously, it's done the searches you later do on www.google.com can be tracked. Don't believe in that "we do no evil" crap, Google is to be trusted no more than any other for-profit corporation.
Re:Cookies on www.google.com (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Cookies on www.google.com (Score:2)
Why does Yahoogroups set seven cookies per session?
oh god no the coookies! (Score:2)
Don't lots of websites set cookies that expire in 2038 (aka, they last 'forever'). I think I wrote a script that did that. Get over it already. If you don't like it, turn off cookies.
God damn, some people really irk me. Why can't you people just enjoy a service, and if it is too inconvenient, shut up and don't use i
0h, n03s! (Score:3, Insightful)
This really isn't a scary thing to me, since I don't use gmail (or google, for that matter) for anything illegal. That doesn't mean that I'm keen on spilling my email-archive guts to the entire world, but if it must happen, it'd be embarrassing at worst. More than likely, my email will elicit the same reaction we see when we try to post too quickly to a late-breaking
Nothing to see here, please move along.
The rule of thumb here (or rule of wrist, if you're a fan of The Boondock Saints [imdb.com]) is:
Don't do stupid/illegal/dangerous stuff online - someone's always watching!
Re:0h, n03s! (Score:2)
It doesn't matter whether activity is legal or not, because legitimate data is useful to computer criminals, too. If I knew every mailing list password, web site password e-mail verification, bank account website confirmation, credit card order, etc. was duplicated on the e-mail provider's servers, even after I delete them, that would really piss me off. Delete means delete, not fake delete plus persistent archive.
Point and counterpoint (Score:5, Insightful)
The article may have a point. Of course, that point is it's own counterpoint. How often have people used things like Google's cached copy of data or the Wayback Machine to prove that a company really did say or claim something after they'd removed or altered the claim and denied ever saying/claiming the original? Google's long memory cuts both ways, and I think it's too useful for keeping track of things to give it up just because it might track my things. And of course it can also be used to counter people who might claim I changed my tune or concealed something when I didn't.
Who cares? (Score:2)
I'm all for privacy (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, you could say my hard drive would be encrypted, or the Goverment could subpoena Google rather than serve a search warrant, but then, you shouldn't be doing anything illegal through a public company anyway, let alone in plain-text.
In summary, I find Gmail's interface and features worth the risk.
Re:I'm all for privacy (Score:2)
Now, I still use Gmail, because I also find the features worth the risk, but that might change. I don't use some of Google's other privacy-invading features, like the PageRank indicator on the Googlebar (IE only, anwyay) or the Web accelerator.
Thank you (Score:5, Insightful)
On today's front page so far we've had:
OSS: Europe vs. the USA
Gaming: Nintendo vs. Sony
Gaming: PCs vs. Consoles
Gaming: Sex & Gender vs. Gender
Platforms: Apple vs. Intel combined with MAC vs. Linux.
Google: New feature
Google: Owns all your data, again.
Linux & Apache: Used by popular (real) news site (wow).
Next up:
Flames vs. Yawns vs. News, the slashdot version of Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Sure, this is a troll, flame whatever. But isn't that what we do here lately?
Re:Thank you (Score:2)
~S
Statistics (Score:5, Interesting)
Gmail is nothing more than an attempt at getting a massive corpus of data on which to let their algorithms loose.
I really think that, while there is potential for abuse, this is really the only way to tackle their problem space. After all, Google doesn't really rank web sites, people do. It's just that Google has some really clever ways for determining that people liked a web site.
Sometimes it relates to webs of links, sometimes it relates to combinations of words, but Google's software doesn't deal in semantics--only algorithmically generating statistics from the data generated by people.
I don't worry so much about Google, I worry about our future AI overlords. Although, if a truly scalable Artificial Intelligence ever gets Internet access, I fear it has the potential to know us better than we do.
Re:Statistics (Score:2)
Great, so when the Googlebot takes over the world it's going to do it using the grammar it learned from a bunch of 12-year-olds.
Just great.
Re:Statistics (Score:2)
But will it know love?
It's still quite private (Score:3, Insightful)
As for caching email, though, I don't see why everyone gets so uptight over privacy. Your emails are still quite private. I doubt there are many people at Google with access to the information, and even if they could read all your email I have to think it would be a singularly boring pursuit.
The US Government can still look at your mail, though. So? If you don't do anything illegal it won't matter. These people already know your tax information. They know your social security number. They know all the places you have lived and all the cars you have owned. They know all the crimes you have been convicted for. They know all of this because of services they provide.
If you're doing nothing wrong, it's unlikely the government will request your emails. And even if they do, you're safe. They aren't going to care about personal anecdotes, and they already have most of the information they would find. On the other hand, if you actually are doing something illegal, I would hope you had a better way to communicate about it than email. There are lots of programs which offer encrypted instant messaging. There's a plugin for Gaim to use it, and there are personal network clients like WASTE with encrypted chat capabilities. You could even create a Yahoo account with false information. So be illegal on those, and not on Gmail.
Re:It's still quite private (Score:2)
Re:It's still quite private (Score:2)
And that comment is obviously wrong. Here are some nice statistics [usdoj.gov]. Between October 1, 1999 and September 30, 2000, 115,589 people were arrested by the Federal government. Of those, only 87,006 were prosecuted. Of those, only 68,156 were convicted. It is apparent that a lot of innocent people are investigated, with all which that entails, by the Federal government.
Th
Re:It's still quite private (Score:2)
Sorry (Score:3, Funny)
Wash yourself (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.imilly.com/google-cookie.htm [imilly.com]
Using this "your Google GUID will be reset to all zeroes, making you effectively anonymous to Google - all the while automatically keeping your saved preferences (such as language, filtering, number of results, etc)."
Re:Wash yourself (Score:2)
All Secrecy, No Privacy (Score:2)
Why does the government get to look at my data after 6 months, but it's so hard to get them to respond to FOIA requests within 6 months (or at all) when the info is sensitive? Isn't this related to this week's Supreme Court decision that
Re:All Secrecy, No Privacy (Score:2)
Since Google's forte is indexing/cross-referencing/etc. publicly accessible information, I would assume that Google is the wrong place to put anything that should remain private.
It's probably more like doing for ordinary mortals what has been done to the "private" papers of Washington, Lincoln, and the likes. There is also a big effective difference between something that stores ALL available information and something which is highly "selective". If I know
Re:All Secrecy, No Privacy (Score:2)
Yes, Google's "forte" is searching public info, but that's because they've only recently offered searching private info. There's little difference to the search system - in fact, since private info is submitted, rather than spidered, it's easier to search the private info more comprehensively. In the transition, people haven't considered that their private info could become public. At least not enough to stop the
i wouldn't be surprised (Score:2)
"Psyops personnel, soldiers and officers, have been working in CNN's headquarters in Atlanta through our program 'Training With Industry,'" said Major Thomas Collins of the US Army Information Service in a telephone interview last Friday. "They worked
Google is the memory of the global village (Score:3, Insightful)
In some ways this is an example of techonlogy bringing us full circle.
Re:Google is the memory of the global village (Score:2, Insightful)
However, in a global village this isn't really an option.
Why Blame Google? (Score:2)
For example, if I take my own website down after running it for several years, can I really blame anyone but myself for residual data left behind in caches and search engines?
Once you put data on the internet, don't ever count on being able to completely remove it. Someone, somewhere will always have a copy of it in some form.
No shit sherlock (Score:2)
But WTF do you think will happen when a PUBLICALLY LISTED COMPANY has access to this sort of data ? It's a marketroids ultimate wet dream.
So I for one don't care what Googles stated privacy policy is. This can be overturned in one board meeting by one "entity" with enough shares (remember: as far as "the Law" (tm) is concerned Corporations are people too)
In the wrong hands Google will become the ultimate Stasi machine. The s
What we really meant to say.... (Score:2)
_____________
April 6, 2004, Associated Press, by Michael Liedtke:
Wayne Rosing [a Google vice president] said there will be an information firewall separating Google's search engine from Gmail. "We don't use the data collected on one service," he said, "to enhance another."
____________
On July 1, 2004, Google modified their main privacy policy to comply with a new Ca
Small ISPs rule (Score:2)
I've said from the beginning, nothing is free. If you use Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo or any of those "free" services, one primary thing you're losing is autonomy and privacy and security. All your correspondence, the content of messages, who your
Comment on "six months" rule misleading (Score:2, Interesting)
The article says that "a 1986 law gives less protection from government searches to messages more than six months old." This is misleading. IANAL, but here's my understanding of the law:
Under the 1986 Electronic Communications Privacy Act, email that is still in transmission receives a higher level of protection than email that the recipient has opened and has left in storage on a remote computer. If you have unopened email on, say, Gmail, and it has been in electronic storage for 180 days or less, then
Re:And..? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:And..? (Score:4, Insightful)
* Everyone knew what Google had planned for the GMail archives (other logs/files notwithstanding) and were OK with it in exchange for mail serach, capacity, and easy-on-the-eyes text ads
* Isn't this nearly the same thing as AdSense anyway? How is using the logs to set up advertising links any different than how it works now with AdSense?
* Everyone was cool with Google because of how their ads are clearly ads, and are simple texty affairs. If this model provides them the funding they need to be the awesome free service they are, what do you care?
GTRacer
- How is long memory a bad thing again?
Re:And..? (Score:2)
So AdSense is a Google-powered ad-matching service but it isn't used on Google's own sites? That is a different kettle of fish then.
Still, it seems to me that Google is at least trying to use their comprehensive surfing database to make the web better. Does make me wonder if in 3 years or so, Brin or Page will rip off a mask and reveal our new meta-search overlords...
GTRacer
- Simpsons = Cultural history
Re:And..? (Score:2)
It's only useful to them in the example you give if it works as advertising material. So here's a concept. Don't help them by not falling into the trap yourself of letting advertisements effect your judgements...oh wait..Slashdot..Google good..Gmail awesome...you already have no free thought.
Re:And..? (Score:2)
Re:And..? (Score:2)
Re:And..? (Score:2)
Re:Question? (Score:2)
Re:Ok, (Score:2)