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Technology Science

Innovation Getting Slower? 512

Daniel Dvorkin writes "A New Scientist article details the claims of Jonathan Huebner, a Naval Air Warfare Center physicist, that the rate of technological innovation is actually decreasing, not increasing exponentially as some people believe. Huebner says that there are now fewer 'important technological developments per billion people' than at any time since the 17th century! I'm far from convinced, but it's an interesting and thought-provoking article." From the article: "He says the rate of technological innovation reached a peak a century ago and has been declining ever since. And like the lookout on the Titanic who spotted the fateful iceberg, Huebner sees the end of innovation looming dead ahead."
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Innovation Getting Slower?

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  • I Blame (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:27PM (#12971671)
    Microsoft [msdn.com]
    • by adoll ( 184191 ) * <alex.doll@nOSpAM.agdconsulting.ca> on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:07PM (#12971844) Homepage Journal
      Did Darwin get a business visa [embassyhomepage.com] to conduct his studies in the Galapagos?

      Did Alexander Graham Bell get a broadcasting licence from the CRTC [crtc.gc.ca]?

      Did Mme Currie have a permit to work with radionuclides [washingtonwatchdog.org]

      Did Captian Cook put up with this crap [wildernesscommittee.org] when he commissioned his vessels?

      • by log0n ( 18224 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:38PM (#12971988)
        I agree. Innovation is getting slower not because people are getting dumber but because deviation from red tape results in prosecution or censure.
      • by Fred_A ( 10934 )
        It has nothing to do with regulators. Investors want a return withing three months. Everything has to be short term, nobody wants to do fundamental research because there's no money in it, anything that hasn't got an immediate and obvious market value goes straight down the drain.

        Technology has gotten so complex that launching a new product (let alone a new field) on your own is getting next to impossible, so investors are a necessary evil. But investors aren't interested in helping you, they are intereste
        • by BewireNomali ( 618969 ) on Sunday July 03, 2005 @07:52AM (#12973244)
          that'a fair argument. the cost of innovation now vs. the "sweet spot" period in the article.

          Edison innovated in his shed out back. The cost might have been significant in his day, but not prohibitive.

          Some might argue that the cost of innovation now is prohibitive. The fair assessment of this article might be that all the "easy" innovations, or all the "cheap" innovations have already been discovered.

          The other thing is this. There are a lot of books circulating about criticality. A big idea in criticality is complexity arising from very simple origins (Gutenberg-Richter Law). So there is the idea that the TREES of our major technologies going forward have already been discovered. The branches are being fleshed out now, but the trunks are all there in plain view. If that is the case, then innovation isn't slowing because of societal reasons, but is slowing because there's less new shit to discover, lending credence to a simple universe.

          • Some might argue that the cost of innovation now is prohibitive. The fair assessment of this article might be that all the "easy" innovations, or all the "cheap" innovations have already been discovered.

            What happened to standing on the shoulders of giants?

            The branches are being fleshed out now, but the trunks are all there in plain view. If that is the case, then innovation isn't slowing because of societal reasons, but is slowing because there's less new shit to discover, lending credence to a si

          • Products like MicroSoft BASIC, VisiCalc, Napster, BitTorrent, etc. were made by one or two clever guys. I dont see that slowing down. It take imagination and sweat to invent the next great thing.
  • Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)

    by SuperJason ( 726019 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:29PM (#12971680) Homepage
    Personally, I blame slashdot. I could be inventing some crazy shit if I didn't have to check this site every 5 minutes.
  • by Flounder ( 42112 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:29PM (#12971682)
    Lack of innovation has always been their trademark.
  • To Fix It (Score:5, Funny)

    by DanielMarkham ( 765899 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:29PM (#12971685) Homepage
    The death of innovation is due to apathy.
    I was going to invent a solution to the problem, but who cares?
  • USPTO (Score:5, Funny)

    by Asmodean ( 21717 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:30PM (#12971687)
    Innovation has been patented.
    • Re:USPTO (Score:5, Insightful)

      by appleLaserWriter ( 91994 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:23PM (#12971915)
      Moderate parent insightful.

      The purpose of a patent is to give an inventor a safe period of time in which to economically exploit their invention. In the past, if you wanted to avoid the lawyers, you didn't have to go far. Hollywood was started by people who didn't want to pay the royalties for film produciton equipment, so they just moved across the country. Today it is much harder to steal technology to make new things.

      Whether this is a good or a bad thing could be the subject of an entire discussion, but the parent demonstrates more insight than humor in pointing at the USPTO.
  • by cshotton ( 46965 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:30PM (#12971688) Homepage
    So who says innovations per billion people is a legitimate measure of the rate? Innovations per year seems to be the only measure that matters. And maybe the rate appears to be slowing because all of the totally common sense innovations have already been done. The stuff that is left requires a huge knowledge base and a large effort on the part of hundreds to achieve. Maybe innovation rates should be correlated to complexity of the innovation. Bet it's increasing if you do it that way. Statistics can always say whatever your thesis needs em to say. Bah!
    • by IanDanforth ( 753892 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:37PM (#12971715)
      I totally agree, whats more is that he doesn't say that overall innovation rates have slowed. We have more world changing innovations a year now than ever before. Its just when you look at a "per population" number that it looks bleak. However, as you point out, who cares about "per population?!" These types of inventions affect everyone, their value isn't diluted the more people they help.
      • "However, as you point out, who cares about "per population?!" These types of inventions affect everyone, their value isn't diluted the more people they help."

        Perhaps because with more people should come more people making things.
        • by ejito ( 700826 )
          Perhaps because with more people should come more people making things.
          Our new innovations take much more man power to invent than lightbulbs and phonographs. For instance, many countries are funding a massive fusion energy project. That project would never be completed by just a single Tesla or Edison.
          • More to the point, I don't think man power is a huge factor. If you had two teams working on a project completely independently and one was made up of twice the people, I don't think the larger team would be twice as good at it. It would be better, but the growth would be worse than a linear relationship. Partially because of overhead, but I think also because the growth of technology is fueled more by knowledge than by the number of people working on it.
        • But it's not sufficient to have a trillion monkeys. You must also have a trillion typewriters.

          More to the point... more and more people can be born... but if the edge of innovation requires internet access, reasonably powerful computers, access to chemistry labs, sub-atomic research facilities... then the rate of innovation is more likely to grow at the pace of GDP, or the amount of R&D investment, or something like that, not at the rate of which people in the third world are born (nothing agains

      • by ShieldW0lf ( 601553 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:24PM (#12971920) Journal
        I totally agree, whats more is that he doesn't say that overall innovation rates have slowed. We have more world changing innovations a year now than ever before. Its just when you look at a "per population" number that it looks bleak. However, as you point out, who cares about "per population?!" These types of inventions affect everyone, their value isn't diluted the more people they help.

        Overall global innovation rates haven't slowed at all. The statement that we have more world changing innovations per year than ever before I'd call rather questionable though. It is true that inventions affect everyone, although the ever growing artifical barrier to useage that intellectual property represents does deny the benefit of most of them to many people.

        The articles premise that each generation of people is less innovative than the generation before them is still a disturbing one, and worthy of note and concern if there is evidence to support it.

        It's really easy to chuck out the argument mentioned in the article, that invention is a finite thing and that we are close to discovering all of it, it consequently becoming more and more difficult, expensive, and unusual relative to the human effort put into it.

        It's irresponsible to accept it though, because it's an easy out. Accepting this premise rules out all of human behaviors capacity to influence how inventive we are in the future, releases us from any collective responsibility for our decreasing inventiveness, and dismisses our collective capacity to correct the situation should we deem it appropriate.

        I can think of a great many other possible explanations for a decreasingly inventive population, and none of them are as vulnerable to Occam's razor as the "we've almost discovered it all" argument.
    • Actually for a long time I've suspected that the gross rate of innovation per capita has been dropping. But I don't think it is surprising. In smaller populations there is more incentive to innovate since there is usually no-one nearby with a solution to your problem. And bigger societies are generally dumber, well lazier is what I really mean. No-one has to innovate. Another factor may be that although a lot of people are innovating the mass media which fuels support (ie funds) for ideas can only handle a

    • While I agree that it's probably not the best measure, innovations per billion people seems like an intuitive measure of the rate of progress. In an ideal world, one would expect that as the number of people increases, so would the number of innovators, and by extension, the number of innovations.

      The main problem with this measure though, is that it assumes all innovations are equally difficult to create, which is obviously not true.
    • Not to mention that innovation itself affects the population. Many advances were made in the 17th century allowing people to live longer which just happens to coincide with the peak he discovered. I agree it seems better to compare innovations per year, or at least correct for increases to the average lifespan.
    • by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @11:32PM (#12972160)


      > So who says innovations per billion people is a legitimate measure of the rate? Innovations per year seems to be the only measure that matters.

      Surely it's exponential population growth that gives rise to the (perceived) exponential rate of innovations. At least in part.

  • Really? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by aroman ( 880468 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:31PM (#12971692) Homepage
    I wonder by how many billion the population has grown since the 17th century? Does the article account for the exponential population increase mondially?
    • Re:Really? (Score:3, Informative)

      Take a look here for an answer [prb.org] to your questions. I don't think it surprising that innovation per billion people has decreased, because a large proportion of people that have ever lived are on the planet right now. We'd have to be _really_ innovative (exceed population growth). In the last hundred years or so, we have TV, phones, radio, airplanes, rockets, nukes, computers, the Internet, etc., so I think the number of innovations per year have certainly increased. The per billion quantity will throw ev
  • Could be (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Profane MuthaFucka ( 574406 ) * <busheatskok@gmail.com> on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:33PM (#12971700) Homepage Journal
    But WHY is a different question. Maybe we're just dreaming about harder stuff. Nanotechnology, space elevators, quantum computing, and curing cancer through understanding of genetics might just be a *wee bit* harder than figuring out the thermodynamics of a new steam engine design.
    • Re:Could be (Score:3, Insightful)

      by mbrother ( 739193 ) *
      And maybe we're not counting some easy stuff (Kurzweil's point about the list being arbitrary is a good one). I mean, a science historian probably doesn't count cup holders in cars or soda can pop-tabs as important innovations, because they're simple and obvious in hindsight, but quality of life is better today because of a lot more things than cell phones.
    • I dunno, I feel thermodynamics was equally as hard to formaulate. The steps required from the base platform of knowledge were just as steep as those required for the stuff you mentioned.

      The breakthroughs in the mathematical methods required to solve the problems are just as various, just as thought provoking, and the solutions will prove to be just as ingenious.
  • by Kaorimoch ( 858523 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:34PM (#12971702) Journal
    Perhaps the commoditisation of one of the most valuable resources of the world, human ingenuity, to be renamed as something called "intellectual property" needs to be considered and changed for the better. Ingenuity and advance has always been on top of the inventions that came before. The circle became a wheel, the wheel became a cart, which became a carriage and finally a car. By stopping further developments by restricting them, hiding them and/or charging a fortune for them, of course development will slow down. If I were to build a starship to travel into the galaxy, I'd have to settle about 16,000 patent claims and divy up a fortune of funds between thousands of organisations.
  • by Manip ( 656104 )
    I was going to post something against patents but I found it had been patented by fifteen companies and some other companies might claim copyright infringement on my work because I will be using similar or identical words.
    • Dear Manip,

      It has been brought to our attention that you have complained on an online "news" service, http://www.slashdot.org/ [slashdot.org] about companies being able to claim copyright infringement on your complaint.

      I must warn you that complaining about companies that hold copyrights/patents on your complaint has already been patented by our company (pat. 913,745,182,891). We demand that you immediately cease and desist such complaints about complaints, and you must also pay us $134,580,317.01 US for damages
  • It's broadening... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ejito ( 700826 )
    There's many more fields of technology than before. Though breakthroughs might not happens as often per person, there's pletny of innovation going on, the resources are just spread out. Our innovation in new fields such as computers can't be graphed by major breakthroughs and inventions. For every researcher, there's dozens of engineers making smaller but crucial progress. It's like looking at the last decade of computers and pointing out only the World Wide Web as an innovation. Hardly an accurate measur
  • Well, first off - invention is more difficult these days... invent a new computer chip? Oh yeah - once you got a billion dollar fab that's easy...

    Second its out patent system and its ridiculous enforcement. In a system where a case like the one with SCO can go on for so long without them showing any prove who can expect you to invent stuff?

    Peter.
  • Buzz words moved in and technology moved out. It doesn't matter if you're 100 times better then your nearest rival, it's whoever has the best advertisements that wins. It's no longer profitable to spend money on development when you can just tag along later (or patent broadly) and spend that money on marketing.
  • by Black Art ( 3335 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:39PM (#12971727)
    I blame patents.

    Patents pretty much hobble innovation. They work when you have a relatively small population base, but not when the population is in the billions. (And not when patents keep getting extended to longer and longer periods of time.)

    During the 1800s there were no improvements to the pistol for about 20 years due to patent restrictions. Patents are supposed to promote science and industry, but often have the opposite effect.

    There is a large amount of huberis involved with the patent process that says "no one is as smart as me, so anyone who has a similar idea to mine must be stealing it". The problem is that when you have large numbers of people working on the same problems, you are going to encounter the same solutions over and over again.

    If we continue to have a "first one to patent wins" on a global scale, we will have crippled ourselves to the fastest filers, not the fastest thinkers.

    We no longer stand on the shoulers of giants because we are crippled by midgets.
    • Anyone who thinks that all innovation is captured in patents is clearly not involved in the design process. I've got a bunch of patents but the coolest ideas we NEVER commit to a patent unless there is an overriding strategic/competitive reason. Innovation is best kept secret and imbedded. Most innovation is invisible to the user and it simply does not pay in most cases to reveal an underlying technique to the whole world who can then modify the process in some small way and gain 90% of the benefit of th
    • Patents hobble revision. If an idea is truly novel, then it will not be hindered by the patent system.
    • by servognome ( 738846 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:59PM (#12972068)
      They work when you have a relatively small population base, but not when the population is in the billions. (And not when patents keep getting extended to longer and longer periods of time.)

      Patents haven't been extended, copyrights have.

      During the 1800s there were no improvements to the pistol for about 20 years due to patent restrictions. Patents are supposed to promote science and industry, but often have the opposite effect.

      Even in the 20th century handguns haven't really been innovated upon. This is not because of patents, but because there is no market.

      If there is a real need for a product, there are many ways to innovate around a patent (excluding software patents which is just screwed up and doesn't really represent what patents should be). That's why even though Viagra is patented there are like a dozen similar drugs a few years later. I work in electronics manufacturing, there is a huge movement towards lead-free processing. Patented alloys makes it difficult, but there are lots of ways around them. In general the shared information of patents outweighs the restriction. All patents do is make you think a little harder.(once again software patents excluded).

      I would agree the time of patent protection is outdated due to the time to market differences of the 18th and 21st century.
      • No, patents used to be 17 years, now they are 20 years + various legal tricks (repatent w/minor mods, lawsuits...)

        But the problem is that patents have always been too long for software, the proof being that patents are supposed to spur innovation, but for this particular problem domain, innovation seem to occur irregardless of patents. Most software innovations are never patented at all.

        -- John.
    • Patents? (Score:3, Interesting)

      by synergy3000 ( 637810 )
      Patents you say? Is every country in the world hobbled by a patent system similar to the US? If there is demand for a product, patent or not it will be filled. Whether homegrown (in my case US) or imported from some country where the patent law does not care as much. Patents do have their problems, but stifling innovation IMO is not one of them. In fact by reading the patent you know what the other person did. Now you can even work with the patented info and make your own enhancements.
  • You don't say (Score:4, Interesting)

    by FuturePastNow ( 836765 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:40PM (#12971733)
    Considering that there were fewer than 600 million [census.gov] people in the world in 1600, I'd assume fewer "developments per billion" today.

    Sorry, I just don't see anything to be concerned about. The per capita rate of development may have gone down in the last 200 years, but the numbers have gone way up.
    • Sorry, I just don't see anything to be concerned about. The per capita rate of development may have gone down in the last 200 years, but the numbers have gone way up.

      Exactly. I'm sure that there are not only more people, but a larger percentage were educated and had time to invent things. We have a very large percentage of humans on the planet living in countries like China and India where they have to work every day to stay alive. They probably don't have much time for inventing. Combine that with t
  • Critical Flaws (Score:4, Insightful)

    by RobertF ( 892444 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:41PM (#12971738) Homepage
    Though it's interesting, this guy has some serious flaws in his thinking. First off, measuring innovation per billions of people isn't very reliable, as a population can rapidly increase or decrease and this doesn't take into account the education level of the population. The list of innovations he plotted is also debateable. I consider the development of Javascript a major innovation, but is that on the list? Think about the thousands and thousands software and hardware innovation that have been made. I don't think it's because they're "insignificant". If it may appear as though there are fewer innovations, that may be because you're looking in the wrong place. Many, many innovations are taking place as we speak, it's just highly specialized. This guy is saying that we'll pretty soon invent everything and be done. This reminds me of a quote by the head of the USPO back in the turn of the century (wish I could find a link). He said that everything that could possibly be invented has been invented. This is obviously way, way off target. Huebner is on the same train of thought.
  • If you look at the movies for summer (just about every one of them is a remake of some kind), innovation is definitely standing still.
  • What's innovation? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Logic Bomb ( 122875 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:44PM (#12971748)
    Stopping a discussion halfway through and saying, "now, let's define our terms" is annoying as all hell. Still, I'm sure everyone has different ideas of what "innovation" is. If you just mean that it's something new, it seems like there's a lot of innovation. But a lot of it is relatively arbitrary, and certainly not "life-altering" or "revolutionary". The article uses the phrase "important technological developments"; what the hell does that mean, and who decides?!

    My feeling is that much of what now passes for "innovation" in the developed world is really refinement. Faster ways of searching for information, endless new ways of distributing capital, methods of communication. Humans face two major hurdles to existence: scarce resources and disease. A true major innovation -- vaccines, mechanized agriculture -- will make one of those problems less of a burden. While it does seem like we're making good progress with modern medicine, I don't think we've made much progress with our energy, food and water supplies in recent years.
  • politik! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by orlando24 ( 670576 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:46PM (#12971760)

    Unfortunately the modern beauracracy and political structure just doesn't value innovation. Patents, grants and research facilities are becoming harder and harder to access. On top of that, multinational corporations are pushing the little guy and his innovative ideas out of the market, so that the only innovation that remains is profit-driven and commercial, which more often than not locks us into the age old cycle of repainting the tiger's stripes and selling him as a new animal because anything too radically new 'wouldn't grab the market'. And government institutions are consistently failing to innovate because their focus is not development, but rather generation of jobs = votes, and any new innovations might risk public sector jobs (NASA, anyone??)

    All the great innovations of the past took enormous risks, and sometimes they failed. It's great to see some private companies with the financial backing there taking those risks (Armadillo Aerospace, Scaled Composites...etc) but it's a pity that government makes it so difficult.

    Who knows how many brilliant innovations have gone unnoticed because the inventor didn't have the money to run R&D privately and couldn't be bothered with the government red tape...I think that we should be encouraging private innovation because you never know where the Next Big Thing is going to come from!

  • Not in a position to innovate. How many people live in China?
  • by multiplexo ( 27356 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:47PM (#12971765) Journal
    OK, so it's 2005 and we don't have colonies on the moon, atomic powered flying cars, supersonic transports or fusion power plants or many of the other technologies that the future was supposed to bring. On the other hand we have the internet, which no one really foresaw and which has drastically changed our lives in the last ten years. We haven't cured cancer yet but we've learned a Hell of a lot about the immune system because of a nasty plague called AIDS and we know more about DNA and heredity than anyone would have thought we would 30 years ago.

    As far as the number of patents declining I'd have to say that this isn't the greatest metric for measuring technological innovation. From the number of crap patents out there (Amazon One-Click, NTPs patents, etc, etc, etc) I'd have to say that just because lots of patents are being generated doesn't mean that innovation is thriving or perishing (In fact I'd fear that too many patents would stifle innovation by preventing people from experimenting with new technologies).

    The reason I have such a problem with Huebner's analysis can be summed up by this one quote from TFA:

    Huebner disagrees. "It doesn't matter if it is humans or machines that are the source of innovation. If it isn't noticeable to the people who chronicle technological history then it is probably a minor event."

    So, if something passes under the radar of those stalwarts who have charged themselves with chronicling technological history then it really doesn't matter. By this logic a technological historian of the early 1970s would probably have been writing volumes about the space program and nuclear research while ignoring things such as the nascent revolution in semi-conductors that was being created by the folks at Intel and other engineers in Silicon Valley, which by any measure has affected our daily lives as much, if not more than the space program or nuclear research. By admitting this Huebner is, at least to me, showing that his analyses are totally arbitrary and therefore valueless.

    • I also wonder how long it takes for an innovation to be regarded as "important?" Something like high temperature superconductors gets noticed right away. Some other equally important technology might not be recognized for a long time. What's the average "lag time" for this list?

      I'm also reminded of how people have argued we were going to run out of this, or run out of that, and haven't because other technologies move in in a timely way. It's an important technology if it keeps us from running out of s
  • by jzarling ( 600712 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:49PM (#12971769)
    We have acheived a level of comfort that people are happy with, and more convienience is now seen as extravagance.

    The big innovations, the ones that change our culture fundamentally are going to come at a cost that most people are afraid to pay. Namely religous beliefs.

    Stem Cells, Cloning, Space Exploration, Quantam Computing, all these courses of study have the ability to alter views on creation itself.

    And most people are not willing to pay that price.
    • We have acheived a level of comfort that people are happy with, and more convienience is now seen as extravagance.

      I, for one, am still waiting for handheld teleporters. Not everyone likes to be stuck in traffic, assuming even that you can afford the gasoline.

      Stem Cells, Cloning, Space Exploration, Quantam Computing, all these courses of study have the ability to alter views on creation itself. And most people are not willing to pay that price.

      I am anxiously awaiting all of the above. Who cares abou

    • I remember Einstein saying that war had never proved itself creative. But in our society, it seems like the inventors of millitary weapons, the NSA etc. are some of the most creative folks out there. They have the funding to be so.

      As long as America lives in dread of the millitary strength of its rivals, there will be millitary innovation.

      I really don't buy the 'innovation is slowing' argument to begin with. Back in the early 1900s you could make a discovery in physics with a cloud chamber and a few resea
  • Yay for Truth! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by zeroweb ( 872966 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:49PM (#12971770) Homepage
    I like this guy! From a larger viewpoint, I have always thought that we are not progressing faster than prior generations. Electricity, Lightbulb, Radio, Car, Plane, (the list goes on)...These are MAJOR innovations compared with the relatively minor ones of a P4 processor, the iPod, etc...Think of things in categories. Everything that is new these days is are minor extensions of the old (the computer, or the transmission of data over some kind of wire...) I vote that things are stale and getting staler. However, this view need not carry negative connotations (except maybe for a /. crowd)...After all, don't we have enough already?
    • Re:Yay for Truth! (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Dunbal ( 464142 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:17PM (#12971892)
      Everything that is new these days is are minor extensions of the old

      Anti-retroviral medication, designer drugs, endovascular stents, non invasive diagnostic imaging... Some fields are exploding exponentially. 20 years ago we had a very hazy idea of how virii worked. Thanks to HIV, not only do we know how they work but we've taken great steps towards creating drugs that block its replication - and these drugs can even be applied to other virii (Hepatitis B and lamivudine, for example).

      This is something completely new - the ability to create drugs based solely on our knowledge of a biochemical pathway. Used to be trial and error - for some reason people who take "x" develop this, this and this, lets find out how "x" works, and try to apply it to some disease. Now it's the other way around - this disease is caused by "y", lets find or build a drug that binds to some receptor and prevents that.

      Or how about me being able to use a spiral CT scanner and software to build a 3-D image of your entire digestive system and take a "virtual" tour of your intestine, to find that tumor? This is amazing and also completely new. Before, you got the knife. Now you just lie still on a table for 20 mins. I can inject you with some radioactive material and get a dynamic, moving image of your beating heart - in 3D, and SEE where all the blood is going (and where it's not). Wow.

      I could go on and on, and this is just in ONE field. My point is, there ARE some pretty new and radical things out there, you just have to look in the right places.
  • by Quirk ( 36086 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:50PM (#12971777) Homepage Journal
    With the science of optics came the invention of the telescope and the microscope, both devices furthered our thresholds of perception. With the passing of new thresholds comes new information, new patterns and the reconfiguring of patterns new and old leads to innovation and invention.

    The fields of molecular biology and nanotechnology are two examples of new information opening up and being engineered. New fields of information, and, its implementation, can open up further fields and so on.

    Perhaps one of the most immediate problems we face is a deluge of information that must be investigated and peer reviewed. Recently, a post grad, posted on /. that, in his opinion, there are too many Phds. I think there aren't enough Phds, and, further, we don't have the systems in place to gardner the results of the Phds now doing research.

    P h d... is that pronounced fud?

  • by sbaker ( 47485 ) * on Saturday July 02, 2005 @09:54PM (#12971802) Homepage
    Who cares what the rate of innovation per unit of population is? That peculiar measure of progress would only matter if benefits of innovation somehow didn't scale with the population size. The world population is still increasing - so the absolute rate of innovation as seen by consumers of those innovations is surely far better than linear.

    But even if you are concerned about rate per unit of population, averaging over the entire planet is a stupid idea. The population increases are in the underdeveloped countries - who (pretty much by definition) aren't innovating much.

    If you counted the rate of innovation per unit of population in DEVELOPED countries (whose populations are actually DECREASING) - then you'd see that the rate of innovation amongst those who are actually doing the innovating is still on a steep curve.
  • But I'm tired of

    A: the apologists who say "innovations per capita don't matter, total number matters!". Give it up. People just don't think anymore. American Idol is probably on somewhere, stealing those innovative minds away.

    B: people saying "all the easy things have been invented" The only easy day was yesterday, and they only seem easy because they were simple. Just wait, more "easy" things will be invented, and people will slap their foreheads and say "Why didn't I think of that!"
  • Singularity? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Eunuch ( 844280 ) *
    No, there will be one innovation that will make everything that existed before a very distant memory--the singularity and transhumanism.
  • This reminded me of the story about how supposedly somebody recommended that the Patent Office be closed in the 19th century because there was "nothing left to invent". I smell a UL, because while I was googling around some people said it was the US patent office and others said it was the Brittish counterpart. Snopes search came up dry.

    Anyway, UL or not, this story reminds me of that.

  • by LionKimbro ( 200000 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:14PM (#12971878) Homepage
    I think that- any innovation that works inside a computer, he'll just call it a "minor innovation."

    So, if we write code that can quickly automatically reconstruct 3D models from video footage, and put it into every computer, it'll be "just another computer program."

    If we write really smart translation systems, and hook it up to speech-to-text and text-to-speech, it'll be "just another computer program."

    Make any machine, but make it run inside a computer, and it'll be "just another computer program."

    Just a minor innovation.

    But I don't think we can afford to think of things that way.

    These are really big innovations. Just taking an existing innovation, and just putting it into everybody's hands: should count for something.

    But I think people are fooled, because they just see a geek and a computer. "Oh, nothing new. He's still sitting in his chair at his computer."
  • by DynaSoar ( 714234 ) * on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:14PM (#12971881) Journal
    than technology can keep up.

    Technology depends on ecomonimcs. When the next greatest thing is in sight before the previous greatest thing is out of R&D, it forces technology to try to pre-empt or co-opt science. And still technology can't afford to herd up and pay off all the scientists.

    "What we need is a Manhattan Project for dumping flash memory data directly to DVD in one flash." Figure the odds.
  • (the actual quote had invention instead of innovation) and for most of the world there may be no sense of neccessity in thier current view.

    Also from my perspective a lot of innovation happens when a new method, technology, or understanding of nature opens up and broadens possibilities to do things better, easier or differently. Some good cases in point are the microcomputer, the internet, Linux and other FOSS tools (which opened the internet to development to us mere mortals), and micro-sized lasers.

    Onc

  • by Ponzu ( 896538 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:17PM (#12971896)
    I doubt the US is spending even close to that on alternative energy research. Not to diminish the problems of those with erectile dysfunction but a cure for cancer or free energy would probably do a lot more people a lot more good for the money.

    The problem is a large proportion of research energy is focused on what will return the most in the marketplace instead of what will return the most to mankind. People lose sight of the big picture in their sprint to make the most money they can and people suffer because of it.

    There has to be a balance between altruism and greed and we aren't anywhere close to the middle right now.
    • One thing:

      Erectile dysfunction was a very important problem for mankind for tens of thousands of years. A tremendous amount of cumulative effort was spent with hundreds of different folk-remedies over the centuries -- several of them no-doubt fatal.

      Then some drug company cured it a couple of years ago. The problem was more-or-less gone from that day forward.

      And you're complaining about it and belittling the accomplishment.
  • I don't know why the article referred "nanotech" as nanomachines or molecular assembly. To quote: "Drexler says nanotechnology alone will smash the barriers Huebner foresees, never mind other branches of technology. It's only a matter of time, he says, before nanoengineers will surpass what cells do, making possible atom-by-atom desktop manufacturing."

    Pfft... talk about uninformed people. Better go to http://news.nanoapex.com/ [nanoapex.com] and get REAL information. (Yeah I know, Drexler is the father of nanotech - but Drexler's nanotech is NOT the nanotech that countries are investing billions in R&D. Too bad for him, tho)

    Nanotechnology isn't just about molecular-level manufacturing. It's about nanoelectronics, nanomaterials for energy storage, new diagnostic machines with nanoscopic precision, analysis of biology in the nanoscale (a completely UNEXPLORED field so far), new materials for permanent artificial bones, filters which will separate the salt (and microorganisms) from seawater at the molecular level... and of course, your 6-million-dollars bionic eyes. Yes. All of this is possible.

    Now, Want a real-world example of technology innovation?
    Vehicle with the highest fuel efficiency sets new world record [physorg.com] . "PAC-Car has now achieved its goal: it finished the course at the Shell Eco-Marathon taking place on the Michelin test track at Ladoux, France, using only 1.07 grams of hydrogen."

    Hey, if that's not innovation, I don't know what it is.

    Now think of the advancements in say, molecular engineering (chemistry) that will be possible by the time we start comparing home computers by their teraflops.

    So, innovation getting slower? Yeah, right.
  • From TFA (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rolfwind ( 528248 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:26PM (#12971936)
    From the f*ing article....

    "In an effort to find out, he plotted major innovations and scientific advances over time compared to world population, using the 7200 key innovations listed in a recently published book, The History of Science and Technology (Houghton Mifflin, 2004). The results surprised him."

    Um..... let me just interject my interpretation: That book won't likely have the key innovation for the last, say decade or so, because they aren't widely known yet until they impact us. For instance, Einstein's first theories weren't widely considered important/innovative until years AFTER he developed them and us dumblings could finally tune into his wavelength and say "AHA! They are useful."

    Or like Arpanet might have been viewed as a cute military playtoy in the 70's...... until it evolved into the internet.

    "Rather than growing exponentially, or even keeping pace with population growth, they peaked in 1873 and have been declining ever since (see Graphs). Next, he examined the number of patents granted in the US from 1790 to the present. When he plotted the number of US patents granted per decade divided by the country's population, he found the graph peaked in 1915.

    The period between 1873 and 1915 was certainly an innovative one. For instance, it included the major patent-producing years of America's greatest inventor, Thomas Edison (1847-1931). Edison patented more than 1000 inventions, including the incandescent bulb, electricity generation and distribution grids, movie cameras and the phonograph."

    Do we really have to get into a discussion of why Patents are not the best measurement of progress?
  • It's not that there arent innovations being made, or work toward innovations being done. It's that the "easy stuff" is behind us. X-ray lithography is harder to do than photo lithography. Making things an order of magnitude more efficient and smaller is harder than just reapplying mass production methods to the latest new thing. Mars is a lot farther away than the Moon, and so on.
  • 1. Greed
    2. IP Lawyers (actually, all lawyers)
    3. Software Patents
    4. Patents on Business Methods
    5. Patents on Math

    Who wants to innovate when all of the above could get you, your children, and your children's children sued, or worse, jailed.
  • by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @10:45PM (#12972015) Homepage
    There is the story that a US Patent Office official said in 1843, "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." Well, it's a story.
  • by popo ( 107611 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @11:13PM (#12972104) Homepage
    This seems to be more of a reflection of third world population growth than on innovation.

    A similar statement could read: "the percentage of educated people in the world is decreasing". (or more directly: the percentage of people *capable* of making innovations is decreasing).

    Population growth in poor and developing nations (and the word "developing" is unfortunately only used out of political correctness) is out of control and is at a dangerous tipping point where we could conceivably see mass famines (as in 'millions dead') any year where drought, blight or oppression get ugly.

    Innovation is alive and well within the population that can innovate.

    Poverty and illiteracy (as a percentage of population) are growing at a furious pace.

  • by Animats ( 122034 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @11:23PM (#12972129) Homepage
    Note some key, well-identified problems that haven't been solved.
    • Energy production. None of the great ideas of the last fifty years have panned out. Fission is more dangerous than expected. Fusion gets further away every year. Solar cells still cost too much and have lousy efficiency. Oil shale remains marginal and messy. And we're running out of oil. That's the biggest problem out there, and there's nothing in the pipeline that looks really promising.
    • Space travel Space flight with chemical rockets just barely works. So much weight reduction is necessary that rockets are too fragile to be reliable. Chemical fuels just don't have the energy density to make it really work. This was known in 1950, yet we still don't have nuclear rockets that work.
    • Artificial intelligence We're stuck. Nobody has a clue how to do it, really. Half a century of banging on the problem, and we basically have the ideas of the 1960s with more CPU power behind them. We have enough CPU power now that we should be able to do a low-end mammal brain, at least. And we can't. It's embarassing.

    The hard problems are not being cracked.

  • by infinite.steve ( 896977 ) on Saturday July 02, 2005 @11:30PM (#12972152) Homepage

    Exponential advancement was always as unfounded an assumption as the assumption of linear advancement that it replaced. While the death of science has been proclaimed many times before, always extremely prematurely in retrospect, I believe that there is only so much nature is prepared to give us, and as we approach this natural limit we're making fewer and fewer revolutionary discoveries and doing more and more refinement, and as the refinement progresses, as with any refinement process, apparent progress slows as you near an ideal state.

    Simple example: there is a really, really good chance that space travel will always be slower than light with no cheats like wormholes ever found, no matter how much we advance, even if we became infinitely advanced, because the laws of physics probably do not permit FTL travel and apparent loopholes may prove completely unusable for anything above the subatomic particle scale.

    I am deeply, deeply skeptical of the promise of nanotech. Our capacity to engineer de novo really interesting and effective enzymes (i.e., examples of real nanomachines) is dismal, we're still working on understanding how natural ones work and making our first crude protein designs, and "nanotech" as we usually think of it, little molecule scale versions of machines we're more familiar with, is IMO somewhat chemically ludicrous. Although some enzymes like ATPase actually look and act soemthing like those kinds of ideas and are super nifty. Still, when we get good at real nanotech, I think the reality is going to cut our fantasies down to scale despite being wicked cool.

    I recall from reading Analog magazines in the 80s :) that it once seemed very fashionable to assume an exponential rate of growth in human technological enlightenment. Authors and commentators self-conciously talked about the previous assumption of linear progress (which you can see in older science fiction in which centuries are posited for what in hindsight are laughably modest achievements). This led to some predictions for our own time which have not been borne out - where is my flying car, godammit? :)

    I thought about it a bit and came up with the hypothesis of an S-shaped curve as the function of human progress, and I believe observation has borne and will bear it out. I was inspired by titrations, which I think progress most resembles. At early stages of the curve, of course, advance is very slow because you need technological advances to make technological advances, it's self-promoting. At some point as you come close to an equivalence point, advance is extremely rapid. But at that point you start to rapidly reach the limits imposed by nature and progress levels off into more and more trivial refinement, but never entirely disappears. It's not exactly analogous but I think the resemblance will prove striking.

    Progress looked linear from the point of view of the first plateau, just like the increase in pH before the equivalence point might seem linear in a base titration. Progress of course looks exponential when you are closely approaching the equivalence point. This is still an illusion.

    Certain technologies, if they are truly available and do not turn out to be beyond the realm of technical possibility, like uploading ourselves into computers (I think this is easier said than done, because I think the human self only possesses the illusion of cohesiveness to itself, but is not actually unitary or cohesive - I wonder if a human mind is really readable to anything but itself), or immortality, could radically transform our very nature and hence change everything. But barring that, I think the highest goal of our species should be to get through the equivalence point to the new plateau alive and basically ourselves, and we need to hope to hell that that plateau includes, for example, truly sustainable sources of energy.

    So, um, summary of long winded spiel, exponential progress = bullshit. No doubt in my mind that there is a limit to what technolog

  • by TapeCutter ( 624760 ) on Sunday July 03, 2005 @01:06AM (#12972432) Journal
    Shakespear wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth..." [the-croc.com], and information theory gave his intuition a rigourous proof. So why do people still write (let alone publish) this kind of crap? Do they know nothing of art and science or is it a combination of a little knowlage and a lot of arrogance?

    Whenever I hear someone talking about the death or decay of technological advancement, "evidence" is presented that the really important stuff happened X yrs ago (where X >= 50). A trully revolutionary discovery is rarely seen for what it is until years later when people have had time to investigate and digest the implications. Even when it is immediately acknowlaged, (eg: Watson & Crick), it takes decades/centuries, to work out the full implications and utility of such a discovery. Maxwell's equations were not particularly "useful" until ~80yrs later when Edison created his Electiric light company and begrudgingly hired a mathemetitian or two. My generation (baby boomer's) were the first to really feel the importance of Darwin on our society and it may yet take another 150yrs to be fully absorbed into our collective phyche.

    There are also alot of people in this thread complaining that IP laws are killing innovation. IP laws are killing the profit to be made by a "small shop" creating innovative gadgets. IP laws cannot stop people such as Eienstien, Maxwell, Turing, etc, finding fundemental insights that in turn drive the technological innovations that corporations so desperately want to profit from. There is however a good argument that when IP laws adversely affect communication between individuals and groups then technological progress will naturally slow down.

    Einstien's equations have been tested to death but yet there is still something "wrong" with our understanding of gravity (on a large scale, "it just don't add up!"). I don't have a crystal ball but I assume in another 50-100 yrs, something like string theory, (at the moment only "useful" as a head scratching excersice), will be seen as having a profound influence. It will be used as evidence by unimaginitive writters to show that physics is dead, they will be sure to point to Godel, Turing and [insert your favorite genius here] as proof that most of the really important stuff has already been discovered.
  • by leereyno ( 32197 ) on Sunday July 03, 2005 @03:55AM (#12972816) Homepage Journal
    There are two problems with attempting to relate population to innovation:

    1) There are over 6 billion people on earth right now. In fact, most of the people who have EVER lived are alive right now.

    2) Most of these people live in 3rd world ratholes where "innovation" is limited to finding ways of keeping a roof over your head and food in your belly. In some cases you can add finding ways of avoiding the local warlord's henchmen.

    Measuring how much innovation there is per billion population is nonsensical because most of those people never have the opportunity to contribute anything. As far as innovation is concerned they don't even exist.

    If he wants to attempt to model the relationship between population and innovation, he needs to limit the population in his model to that of developed nations with strong educational systems. If he ever gets around to doing this, I already know what his reaction is going to be:

    "Doh!!!"

    Lee

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