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Technology Science

Automated Pool System Saves Swimmer 426

An anonymous reader writes "An automated swimmer tracking system installed in a pool in Wales has saved a young girl who just collapsed and sank to the bottom, by paging lifeguards when it could not detect her moving." This is the first time a UK swimmer has been saved by the £65,000 Poseidon system since it was installed in March of 2003.
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Automated Pool System Saves Swimmer

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  • One step further (Score:5, Interesting)

    by fembots ( 753724 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:27PM (#13449560) Homepage
    Paging lifeguards is good as long as one is available.

    Maybe in the future, a secondary (upper) tiles can be installed on the pool floor, and the system is able to pinpoint the victim and automatically raise enough tiles to push the victim out of the water.
    • by Junta ( 36770 )
      Could have nets, less chance of pushing the drowning person aside than bringing them up.
      • Re:KISS (Score:3, Funny)

        by pclminion ( 145572 )
        That's a FANTASTIC idea (no sarcasm), and if I believed in patents I would urge you to patent it ;-)
      • Re:KISS (Score:2, Informative)

        by SteveAyre ( 209812 )
        Good idea, but I think it might be more of a risk though.

        What if you tangled your foot in the netting? You might pull up and thus no longer be at the bottom of the pool setting the alarm off, but be stuck underwater and in a 12ft deep end no-one would be able to survive that sort of a manual rescue.

        Having such a system would also make the budget constrained councils probably stop employing lifeguards thinking the system would replace them. However they're still needed, for manual rescues, in case the system
        • Re:KISS (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Taladar ( 717494 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @07:29PM (#13450361)
          An untrained parent whose attention is not guaranteed will never be as safe as a trained lifeguard.
          You are right. But neither of those two alone is enough. Both the parents and the lifeguard are responsible for watching the children. And the parents, not the lifeguard are to blame for drowned children. If they were not confident in their child's swimming skills they could have send it to courses or avoided going swimming completely. The lifeguard has neither of those choices.
  • Excellent. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Trusty Penfold ( 615679 ) * <jon_edwards@spanners4us.com> on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:30PM (#13449577) Journal

    That's wonderful news.

    But ... "It then compares images to a database of thousands of examples of swimmers in trouble. " ... seems like an inefficient and error prone way to solve this problem.

    Obviously it worked in this case, but I would have thought the opposite approach would be safer - ie. compare images to picures of swimmers not in trouble and alert if there is no match.

    With this existing system, if you drown in a way the system doesn't know about then you drown.
    With the opposite system, if you swim in a way the system doesn't know about then the lifeguard gets a page, he has a quick check and presses the 'swimmer is okay' override button.

    And why is image comparision even needed in this case? If an object of person size is on the bottom and not moving for more than X seconds (where X is some small number) then something is wrong.
    • Re:Excellent. (Score:3, Insightful)

      by chriss ( 26574 )

      People drowning usually have something in common: once they lost their consciousness, they don't move that much. In contrast, people will stay afloat by making the weirdest movements, and it is not trivial to determine whether someone is making strange movements because a) they cannot swim or b) they try to splash water on everybody around.

      So identifying somebody who does not move and is sinking to the bottom of the pool seems much easier and will only require several thousand images of other peoples in t

    • And why is image comparision even needed in this case? If an object of person size is on the bottom and not moving for more than X seconds (where X is some small number) then something is wrong.

      And what exactly is a person size object? The last time I took a dip in a pool my fellow swimmers ranged from a 4 year old to myself. (42 yrs old and 250lbs.) And from what angle are you viewing that person sized object? From near 'straight above' (like the young girl in the clip), many humans appear pretty sma

      • But how many other objects are there in the pool? Balls float. I can't really think of anything that could be in the pool that would set off a non-motion detector but is still supposed to be there.
    • And why is image comparision even needed in this case? If an object of person size is on the bottom and not moving for more than X seconds (where X is some small number) then something is wrong.
      RTFA. That's what it does.
    • If an object of person size is on the bottom and not moving for more than X seconds (where X is some small number) then something is wrong.

      Or a kid is practicing holding his breath under water.

    • Re:Excellent. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kfg ( 145172 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @06:12PM (#13449854)
      Why is it harder to park a car than unpark one?

      Because there is only one state in the entire universe that counts as being parked. To park a car you must achieve the restricted state.

      To unpark a car you need only achieve any other state.

      The number of states a person not in trouble can be in is large. The number of states a person in trouble can be in is far smaller.

      KFG
    • Here's an alternate suggestion. When you're in a hospital, you wear a blood oxygen saturation sensor on your finger. How about making a waterproof, bluetooth enabled device that each swimmer must wear. There's no confusion. Swimmers either have enough oxygen in their blood or they don't. If they do, then they're ok even if they decide to play dead on the bottom. If they don't, they're in trouble.
    • by typical ( 886006 )
      But ... "It then compares images to a database of thousands of examples of swimmers in trouble. " ... seems like an inefficient and error prone way to solve this problem.

      Ah hah! Your database doesn't have a single image of an octopus attacking a motorcycle rider after he accidentally drove his motorcycle into a pool, *does* it!
  • £65,000? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by toofast ( 20646 ) * on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:30PM (#13449581)
    Worth every cent.
    • by Homology ( 639438 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:50PM (#13449715)
      Worth every cent.

      Erh, I guess that should be pennies :-)

    • Re: £65,000? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by RFC959 ( 121594 )
      I don't want to sound like an ogre - I'm glad she was saved - but can we really say this so uncritically? As the article points out, this is the first time anyone has been saved in the UK, and there are eight UK pools with the system; that makes the cost not £65,000 but 8 * 65000, or £520,000, plus whatever maintenance costs the system has. Let's not forget the difference between what is seen (girl saved by Poseidon system) versus what is not seen (whatever else could have been done with
  • Mastercard (Score:3, Funny)

    by LittleGuernica ( 736577 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:31PM (#13449587) Homepage
    Mastercard will love this one. Poseidon: 65k. Saving a young life: priceless. For everything else...you get the drill
  • by It doesn't come easy ( 695416 ) * on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:32PM (#13449595) Journal
    Another link with video and more details [bbc.co.uk]. As the father of a two-year-old daughter, watching the girl sink to the bottom of the pool, completely motionless for a minute or so, and then be rescued invoked more emotion in me than I would have believed possible. I would say this one incident more than justified the $118,000 price tag.
    • by temojen ( 678985 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @06:05PM (#13449814) Journal
      The Price is about to go up...

      As every public pool administrator in Europe and North America realize they could get sued if they don't have the system and someone drowns.
      • Shouldn't that make the price go down (economies of scale)?
        • Nope. Supply and demand. Demand goes up, the price goes up. Supply goes down, the price goes up.

          The cost of producing the system may go down, but, in the absence of competition, there's no reason for the manufacturer to pass those savings on to customers, and millions of reasons (aka British Pounds) not to.
      • by raehl ( 609729 )
        At $120,000 a pop, it's probably not worth it. What is the operational life of the system? How much does it cost to maintain? How many of the systems will actually save a life?

        Like it or not, life DOES have a monetary value. If we only save one life per $10 million spent, that's probably not worth it (as we could save many more lives spending $10 million elsewhere.) The FAA values a life at about 2.3 million dollars - and only mandates changes where the cost of changes is less than 2.3 million dollars
    • The video is a bit surreal. After the fact (having a three year old daughter myself), $118k is a small fraction of what it would be worth. Every penny I've ever made, and every penny I'll make for the rest of my life is a bit closer, but probably still on the low side.

      For pool management, though, you have to decide what your risk tolerance is. It's a dollars game for them. Kind of sick, really. But practical. No neighborhood pool, or one with only human lifeguards.

      Personally, it would be nice to see the pri
    • Where they do everything they possibly can to prevent you from actually being able to view the video unless you have a browser with and plugin they like.

      Anyone got a link to the actual video itself?
  • 65,000 pounds. So? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by SiMac ( 409541 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:32PM (#13449598) Homepage
    The editorial comment makes it sound like the 65,000 pounds was a waste of money, but I'm sure that, had the child died, the parents would have parted with that much to have her back.

    Seriously, 65,000 pounds for a life ain't bad. Look at the Vioxx lawsuit...
    • 65,000 pounds isn't a lot of money.. if you have the 65,000 pounds to spend in the first place. I think the point of it being a lot of money is that it's not terribly affordable for most public or private pools.
    • But the parent's didn't pay for it. Would you part with $120,000 so that they could have their child back?
    • Keep in mind, this is 65,000 UKP *per pool*. So, over two years we've saved one life for UKP$ 65,000 * 75 pools (according to their web site).

      Food for thought: Regardless of what you think a human life is worth, at some point, the money would be better spent somewhere else where you can save more than 0.5 lives per 2 years per US$ 9,000,000.
      • The system could easily last another 5 or 10 years, at a rate of one life every 2 or 3 years it would be worth it.
        • WHat nobody has mentioned it what it costs when adults willing put themselves in danger (for the thrill) and need to be saved.

          $20K-$60K isn't unusual in the least.

          (Which is only about half of the automated system cost, which has thhe potential to save multiple lives without incuring significantly more costs.

      • The article says 8 UK pools (one save). 100 pools worldwide for a total of 5 saves.

        11.8M/5 = 2.25M per life, assuming all systems stop working today. That's a steep price - probably close to a jury award.

        If you'll grant me 1000 total patrons per pool, I get about $118/patron for the system. Not too bad, quite honestly. The question is: would pool management feel that they could reduce lifeguards if they bought this system? That might reduce the overall effectiveness. The whole false send of security thing.

        O
      • "Regardless of what you think a human life is worth, at some point, the money would be better spent somewhere else where you can save more than 0.5 lives per 2 years per US$ 9,000,000."

        that statement is logically stupid.
        What if I think it is worth saving .5 lives for US$ 9,000,000? then this statement "Regardless of what you think a human life is worth" is false, but you assert it as if it is true.

        Also, there is no place where the completed financial interconectedness of all resource avenues is charted. No
    • Seriously, 65,000 pounds for a life ain't bad.

      Not at all, especially if it's your kid. But it's not that simple.

      The money has to be spent before it's needed, and there's no way to know when or where it'll be needed, or if it'll ever be needed.

      Ultimately, you'd need to take the cost of the device, installation and upkeep over a period of time, then divide by the average number of people who drown in these pools (probably very small, but non zero) in that timespan, the divide that by the odds of

  • I think this coupled with an on-guard lifeguard is the way to go. One shouldn't replace the other. Where I go swimming, during free-swim, sometimes there's so many people in the pool its hard to make sense of anything. I can see where something like this would greatly enhance overall safety.
  • Clarification (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Poromenos1 ( 830658 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:35PM (#13449621) Homepage
    This is the first time a UK swimmer has been saved by the £65,000 Poseidon system since it was installed in March of 2003.

    Does this mean that the others weren't saved, or that that noone else came close to drowning?
  • How did she drown? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Odin_Tiger ( 585113 )
    "She just jumped into the water and drifted down to the bottom, as if she was going to sleep." That sounds extremely bizarre to me. How does a person just lose consciousness like that? Shock from cold water, maybe?
    • Perhaps she was suffering from a heart condition, narcolepsy or something.
    • If you watch the video, you see she's close to the wall when she comes in. It's possible she hit her head.
  • by LittleGuernica ( 736577 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:37PM (#13449629) Homepage
    In late 2006 they will Install Poseidon Vista, which makes the entire pool searchable, have an "aqua" interface and tranparant water. A new filtersing system is also planned, called PoseidonFS, but will probably come with service pack 1.
    • In late 2006 they will Install Poseidon Vista, which makes the entire pool searchable, have an "aqua" interface and tranparant water. A new filtersing system is also planned, called PoseidonFS, but will probably come with service pack 1.

      It will also have tabbed swimming, allowing multiple swimmers to use one pool lane at the same time, at different depths, and will come complete with extra features like clogged filters.

  • Joke (Score:2, Insightful)

    by lappy512 ( 853357 )
    This reminds me of a joke about a education school system:

    This guy describes to the school administrator about a complex method of educating students, but it seems like a good idea to get students to learn.

    But, the Administrator looked at the price tag, and asked, is it really worth it, to spend all this money for education?

    And the guy replied: "If it was MY child, yes!"

    This shows that some things, no matter the price tag, can be justified to save a life or the education system.

    • Re:Joke (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Vellmont ( 569020 )

      This shows that some things, no matter the price tag, can be justified to save a life or the education system.


      If your goal is really life saving, is it possible there's a better place that 65,000 pounds could go that would save more lives? The other question that I brought up in another post is if public pools even have anything like 65,000 pounds to spend on a system such as this.

      I think people get too caught up in all the emotionalism of the immediate and visible life saving that this system offers. Som
  • by kyle90 ( 827345 ) <kyle90@gmail.com> on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:42PM (#13449663) Homepage Journal
    After all, she only had an 11% chance of survival, but Will Smith had a 40% chance.
  • Cost benefit (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Michael Woodhams ( 112247 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:56PM (#13449759) Journal
    Back-of-the-envelope:

    100 systems installed, 65k pounds per system = 6.5M pounds.
    Five lives saved (according to the article) = 1.3M pounds per life.

    +: The systems are only recently installed, and have years of use yet, so should save many more. If they are 20% through their life-cycle, we can expect final cost around 260k pounds/life.
    +?: Perhaps the system will allow cost savings through fewer lifeguards.
    -: We're not 100% sure those people wouldn't have been saved anyway without the system.
    -: I haven't accounted for running costs, just purchase cost.

    It is at least in the ball-park of cost-per-life-saved for other safety expenditure such as on airlines and roads - and it will get cheaper. So we can expect these to become wide-spread in the next decade.

    • Re:Cost benefit (Score:3, Insightful)

      by GPez ( 168764 )
      You're forgetting some basic economics: 6.5M pounds doesn't just disappear. It goes to paying the workers who installed the system, the engineers who designed the system, the truck drivers that delivered the system, the factory workers who made the cameras, etc.

      Its not just that the 6.5M pounds went down the tube. It would make more sense to look at this system's cost/benefit in relation to *other* similar systems, not just by itself.
      • I don't get your point. Whatever we spend 6.5M pounds on (more lifeguards, overpriced military hardware, whatever), it doesn't disappear. If we don't spend it (lowering pool admission fees, or rates if it is a municipal pool), then it still doesn't disappear but gets spent on ice-creams, bigger mortgages etc.

        Spending money is an allocation of limited resources (primarily labour) to a certain cause. If, for example we spend 65k pounds on an anti-drowning system and it is completely ineffective, then all the
  • Good God! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @05:56PM (#13449761)


    > by paging lifeguards when it could not detect her moving.

    Let's hope they never deploy this where I work!

  • Kind of pointless (Score:2, Insightful)

    by EdwinBoyd ( 810701 )
    I'm happy to hear that the girl was not hurt and I'll be the first to throw out the corny "if it saves one life then it's worth the cost" However, we're speaking about a pool here, it's not as if the lifeguard has an entire beach to scan. At best the device sent the page seconds before the guard on duty would notice and at worst it encourages the guards to perhaps not be as diligent as they should be. "Excuse me my son appears to be drowning" "No fear ma'am the Hasslehoff 3000 is on the job"
  • It would seem this gadget quite paid for itself by this one action, no other action need be performed by this unit for its lifespan to prove its worth.
     
    On a dark note, possibly, if here in the US, it would have saved a hell of a lawsuit of wich th atty fees would probably sum that total.
     
    But a life at 100k $ us...not bad...not to mention I am sure her and her family couldnt be more happy.....
  • by mriya3 ( 803189 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @06:15PM (#13449887) Homepage
    "An automated swimmer tracking system installed in a pool in Wales allowed lifeguards to ban a man that was urinating in the pool"
  • by Yaa 101 ( 664725 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @06:24PM (#13449944) Journal
    People in Europe and the UK are worth about 1.000.000 Euro's, this is the smallest amount that this person will hand over as taxes to the country it lives in.

    So apart from being great to save lifes, it is really an economical sound thing to do.
  • by Teppy ( 105859 ) * on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @06:46PM (#13450097) Homepage
    I know that there will soon be people chomping at the bit to mandate these things.

    I did some calculations. There are 7.6 million residential pools in the US [aaisonline.com], and 832 drownings per year among children age 0-14 [cdc.gov]. This number includes non-pool drownings, so the cost to save each child is actually higher than below. There are also a smaller number of adult deaths. Assuming a pool lasts for 20 years:

    Cost per pool per year:
    $100,000/20 = $5,000.

    Cost per year, nationwide:
    $5,000 * 7.6M = $38B

    Cost per life saved:
    $38B / 832 = $45.6M

    The per capita Gross Domestic Product of the US is $40,100 [cia.gov]. At this rate, one person must work 1,140 years to save someone else's life. I realize that it's very chic to say you can't put a price on life, but if you don't, the entire population of the world will quickly be working full-time to do nothing but save lives.

    It's a shame that logic always loses out to "Please, won't someone think about the children!"
    • by Trillian_1138 ( 221423 ) <slashdot@ f r i d a y t h ang.com> on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @07:05PM (#13450225)
      You didn't take the math to its completion. Sure, if each of the 832 people has to pay for their own rescue, it's $45.6M per person (going by your math, which I have no reason to doubt).

      But one of the great things about living in a country is that you get to pool (no pun intended) the resources of everyone who lives there. So $45.6M /295M in the USA (according to Google) is about 16 cents per person per year. I'd say 16 cents is a bargain for a life-saving technology.

      I think I understand your objection, in that if we buy every new technology we *may* end up paying "too much" and spend all of our money on mechanisms which are only going to save one or two people. But at what point is "too much" to save a life?

      I completely agree in that, at some point, a line needs to be drawn. But it's ridiculous to say that "one person must work 1,140 years to save someone else's life" because that's not how our country works (or any, as far as I know). I'm not going to need to work for a thousand years for fire protection or the police department or public education for that matter because those are things that, as a society, we've decided get used enough to pool our resources to buy as a city/county/state/country.

      A better argument might be "For $38 billion we could do XXX and save more lives." That I could get behind. I was even with your math for the first two calculations, as I expected you to simply say "for $38B we could save a million people from dying of AIDs" or some other life-saving expenditure. But talking about a 'per-person' cost of something that wouldn't be billed 'per person' seems unrealistic.
      -Trillian
  • With success. This is technology at its best.
  • If this were deployed in every pool, there would be competition, and with competition would be significantly reduced prices. Honestly, just a "bottom-of-the-pool cam" to every lifeguard, with an alarm for sections of the bottom that aren't changing but do have someone -- this would catch quite a bit, and be really cheap to implement.
  • How about (Score:3, Insightful)

    by melted ( 227442 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @07:19PM (#13450306) Homepage
    How about just watching your freaking kids using the freaking pool? What if pool owner installs this $100K+ system and it fails to react to a drowning kid? What if no one is available to rescue the kid? What if the potential rescuer is also a poor swimmer?

    There are thousands of "what ifs" here. The point is, watch after your kids until they're smart enough to watch after themselves (about 20-21 years or so). This is coming from a person who had a severe trauma at 1.5 years of age due to parents not watching.

    Spending hundred thousand dollars is not a reason to be careless enough to let your kid (or friend) drown in the pool.
  • Billiards (Score:4, Funny)

    by NitsujTPU ( 19263 ) on Wednesday August 31, 2005 @07:41PM (#13450428)
    RTFA, the British don't call it pool, they call it Billiards!
  • by HuguesT ( 84078 ) on Thursday September 01, 2005 @04:12AM (#13452429)
    This is the 4th person being saved by the system. So far the system hasn't missed anybody drowning. There is about 1-4 false positive per day per pool (which is acceptable according to lifeguards).

    The system is very quick, reacts in about 10s. It essentially works by finding and tracking everybody underwater in the pools. It knows the 3D location of all swimmers, and reacts if someone is underwater and motionless for a few seconds. Poseidon/VisionIQ did a lot of innovative research in 3D tracking which has been published and patented over the last 10 years or so. Some of the people working at that company are among the smartest I know.

    Poseidon is a small company and as it is they barely break even. The system is not just clever software, but lots of cameras and a fast computer system. The installation is not easy as all cameras have to be calibrated for the specific 3D architecture of the pool. The cost may look steep but really is isn't that much compared with the normal cost of the pool maintenance, as it is essentially a one-off cost.

    At a large public pool apparently someone can be expected to drown every other year or so in spite of lifeguards presence. Poseidon can make a difference. It cannot replace lifeguards as someone trained has to do the rescues, it is just an alert system.

    In 2004 in the UK a person drowned in a pool which had rejected the Poseidon system. The next day the paper's outline were "Person drowns for want of 65,000 Pounds".

    For all the Linux afficionados out there, last I heard Poseidon ran on Windows NT 4.0.

    For all the naysayers out there, when Poseidon started no one thought they had a business, but they single-handedly created their own market. We can now expect competitors to show up. As most trailblazers Poseidon might be bought out in the future by some big security company spinoff or something. We can also expect the system's cost to come down somewhat in the future, and hopefully to be more prevalent.

    Nevertheless I'd be very proud to have been associated with a small outfit who has measurably saved people's lives. Very few endeavours succeed in that regard.

    Best.

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