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Maui X-Stream Tries Again With 'Zentu' 92

Posted by ScuttleMonkey from the very-hard-to-recover-your-rep dept.
oil-can writes "The guys behind CherryOS announced Zentu Encoder today, saying Zentu is the the third generation of their VX30 codec. DrunkenBlog warns about the product with references to their history." Zentu is an encoding platform that boasts the ability to export video in a quick efficient way to either a Flash or Java based system with an interface for both inexperienced and power users.
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Maui X-Stream Tries Again With 'Zentu' More

Maui X-Stream Tries Again With 'Zentu'

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  • let the hunt begin! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Janek Kozicki ( 722688 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @03:50PM (#13935305) Journal
    firs /. reader that finds an OSS project that is doing the same, gets the prize! (remember to check freshmeat, sourceforge, berlios, alioth and tigris).
  • And I was in Lahaina just a couple months ago, i could have gone and slapped some sense into these nimrods.

  • Article text (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @03:56PM (#13935344)
    Evil is as Zentu probably does
    November 02, 2005

    Apparently Maui X-Stream is hyping their new product, The Zentu Platform, which is billed as the third generation of their VX30 Codec and a video encoding tool for streaming media. Riiiiight.

    They've got a press release and everything.

    *bangs head against desk* You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried, and I have a feeling when someone takes the time to deconstruct Ventu they'll find interesting things. For newer readers who don't understand why I'm mixing brandy with the coffee before noon after seeing this, the company behind Ventu has an.. interesting... history when it comes to their video encoders and other products.

    The following links should be enough to get you up to speed, especially if you go in reverse chronology.

            * MXS and CherryOS archives, where you'll want to start with The Pits in CherryOS.

    And then the ones on VX30, which are more directly applicable to Zentu:

            * MXS and VX30 archives, where you'll want to start with Deconstructing Maui X-Stream.

    The stuff Jim Kartes and Arben Kryeziu pull makes my soul hurt, and it's made worse by the fact that I'm not supposed to talk much about them while some legal things still unravel.Thank god for Yano, who is the only IP lawyer I'm aware of running around in a Cow shirt on weekends.
    yummy alcohol posted button posted by drunkenbatman at: 12:02 PM

  • Thanks for the warning (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @03:56PM (#13935346)
    I don't make a move until I get an official stance from drunkenblog.
  • Uh oh... this sounds like MXS rehashed, and we all know how much that ripped off tons of GPL code, including VLC, Media Player Classic, and LAME. Why haven't these guys been sued into the ground yet?

    • Re:Not This Again (Score:2, Interesting)

      by HatofPig ( 904660 )
      ...sounds like MXS rehashed...

      Meant to say VX30, and it's the SAME THING. Jeeze... there are half a dozen different GPL projects being ripped off here; I wonder how many companies have bought this software? Has anyone told Geico [geico.com] about this?

      • Apparently, if you buy a product that used illegally obtained software you're potentially liable. This is the same reason why all those companies started saying we'll cover you if SCO actually does prove that Linux had code improperly put in there.

        I think it would be interesting if the copyright holders of the GPL projects in the VX30 software contacted Geico and let them know about their liabilities...
        • While it would be nice to make the VX30 people play nice, I think the way to do it is by suing them directly. Suing Geico would probably just make people more wary of open source software.

          • Re:Not This Again (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Krach42 ( 227798 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:51PM (#13935823) Homepage Journal
            The intention is to use legal basis to let their customers know that they're using software under the wrong license.

            Probably a better idea would be to explain to them how they can do exactly what they got from MXS, but legally and respecting the GPL. Then let them know that they can avoid any legal repercussions by using the software legally, rather than paying a company to steal.

            I think most companies if hit with the information that what they were sold is actually free, and the only thing that the people who originally wrote it is just to respect their license, use it legally, and *gasp* free (as in beer) that most companies would opt for that, especially if it had them avoid any legal details.

            Basically something like, "Just to let you know, we're suing the Maui X-Stream due to their illegal inclusion of our GPL software without our permission. If we are successful, then this suit may place you in a legally vulnerable position, because you're using software that was not properly licensed, and MXS has been offering no amnesty for their users. If you want to avoid this potentially damaging situation, we can provide you free information about how to provide the exact same service you were getting from MXS, but in compliance with copyrights, and without further cost to you."
            • Since they are probably lifting OS code, whay not just start an OSS project on sourceforge that does the same thing and publicize it?
              You know, "This software package does everything that "Zentu" can, at no cost!.
              Threats of lawsuits don't matter to these guys, but like any parasite if you cut off its life-blood it dies.

              Just take any open source code they use and combine it, while respecting the licenses, and release it for free.
    • I read a good hunk of the article, and these jokers are throwing around cease and desist orders like beads at mardi gras.

  • What are the choices? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by phpm0nkey ( 768038 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:02PM (#13935413) Homepage
    If we're arguing that MXS didn't write the VX30 codec, but rather lifted it from an open-source project, the first step is figuring out the orgin. How many mature, open-source codecs are out there? XviD is the only one that comes to mind...
    • If we're arguing that MXS didn't write the VX30 codec, but rather lifted it from an open-source project, the first step is figuring out the orgin. How many mature, open-source codecs are out there? XviD is the only one that comes to mind...

      Wow, you got it in the first try. Of course, they put a bunch of other projects into it as well, but XviD is the biggest one.
    • They aren't saying they wrote the codec.

      They are saying that their new program uses FFMpeg as the encoder, their software appears to be nothing more than a shell script.

      http://www.vx30.com/pages.php?cid=MDEwMTgxMTgyMTk4 [vx30.com]
      • ... their software appears to be nothing more than a shell script.

        This generally describes all of the software that they've released. Only they illegally redistribute binaries of GPL projects also.
      • They have no idea what they are talking about actually:

        "The Flash Video files created by the Zentu encoder use the open source library FFMPEG which is a derivative of MPEG 4." ffmpeg is not a derivative of mpeg4. mpeg4 is an iso standard, with various open source (xvid, ffmpeg) and closed source (divx above 4.x) implementations. Incidentally, ffmpeg also supports sorenson v3 codec, (from the mplayer documentation, from ~ 6 months ago ):

        "The most recent codec deserving credit is the Sorenson 3 (SVQ3) code

        • I thought FFMpeg wasn't a codec but a compilation of programs to encode audio and video.

          • I thought FFMpeg wasn't a codec but a compilation of programs to encode audio and video.

            Indeed. I should have said ffmpeg's mpeg4 codec - because it isn't a compilation in the sense codec-packs are. Every encoding algorithm they support is developed by them (and they support a lot!).

            Also, it seems to be that whatever they are doing this time is legit - for a change.

            • Yeah, and ffmpeg [sourceforge.net] is pretty much the foundation of many or most multimedia on Linux. Take a look at the source-code sometime, it's pretty damn cool.

              ffmpeg is the work of a guy called Fabrice Bellard, and probably many people who've tweaked, helped and tested.
              • Unfortunately, I can't read source code (yet - I'm learning programming in small steps, php/python as of now, otherwise, I study literature/culture - and incidentally, doing my dissertation on gift economy :))
    • "How many mature, open-source codecs are out there? XviD is the only one that comes to mind..."

      ffmpeg is as mature as xvid, and is actively developed (xvid is not). Of course ffmpeg is not just mpeg4 like xvid, but its mpeg4 encoding is as good if not better as xvid in quality (and its performance is definitely much better).

      Although it's not related, but if you want good quality h.264 codec, you have that area covered as well with an open source implementation: x264. Which is better than most other propr

      • And libraries like FFmpeg infringe on a zillion patents themselves, making it illegal to use them in the first place (yes, even for personal use). But now that Maui possibly tries to use FFmpeg illegally.. that is somehow different and more unfair?

        I'm no fan of Maui, but this does smell like a pot/kettle type of situation.
        • As of now, illegal patents here in Europe (ffmpeg is hosted on mplayer's servers btw).

          Patents (concerning abstract ideas, algorythms, etc.) are unfair. Stealing other people's is also unfair. So this is not a pot/kettle situation.

  • Sorenson this time, not MPEG4 (Score:4, Informative)

    by inio ( 26835 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:08PM (#13935456) Homepage
    If it supports flash, the new "product" is Sorenson-based (v3 I think, maybe v4) instead MPEG4 like last time.

  • Seems to be clear infringement... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Chromatic Aberration ( 926933 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:12PM (#13935491)
    Looking deeper into the linked article, there is some really very good evidence elsewhere on the site. http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/00 0534.html [drunkenblog.com] is a total dissection of the first few generations of this "Vx30" codec and suite -- which appears to be a direct lift of Xvid, mpg123, lame, and mplayer classic code, as well as code from the JPEG group and others.
    • Well, I got fed up with them on the whole CherryOS deal. The only reason I think they dropped that one is that the PearPC community was pushing so hard against them. They decided it were better for them to just drop the project than deal with us.

      Now with the software gone, and refunds offered to all who bought it (the whole maybe 2 people) there's almost no argument for any damages that could be received, and there's no active infringement.

      Which sucks, because we could have hung these guys outright with C

  • a look at the evidence (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Read this for a detailed account of the evidence of *ahem* borrowing from open source code projects by the VX30 project:

    http://www.drunkenblog.com/drunkenblog-archives/00 0534.html [drunkenblog.com]

    All I can say is I have a very strong opinion about the company and the people running it, take a look and decide for yourselves, their actions speak louder than words.
  • Ok, or maybe a few. But hey, they were FREE! There was no harm done right?

    What a bunch of clowns. I wonder if their mission statement with MXS was "Wait for this to blow over, then rename it and try to cash in."?

  • Maui's coding checklist: (Score:4, Funny)

    by davidwr ( 791652 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:15PM (#13935515) Homepage Journal
    1) Did we pick a good product to steal? Check.
    2) Did we remember to obscufy the code so nobody can tell we stole it? Better double-check that.
    3) Did we change our name so nobody would suspect us? DOH! BUSTED.

    Oh well there goes
    4) PROFIT!
  • This is ridiculous. They just keep on with blatant copyright infringement like nothing happened. When will someone put a stop to that?
    • When will someone put a stop to that?

      The PearPC community was well on its way towards accomplishing this, but then when they finally realized that they were going to lose, they ditched everything. With no ongoing and active infringement, it's very very difficult to move forward with anything at all.

  • Hmm... (Score:4, Funny)

    by tktk ( 540564 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:37PM (#13935673)
    Seems like looking for GPL code the new scavenger hunt.

    • It's not a scavenger hunt if it's always in the same place.

      Saying that you're having a scavenger hunt for GPL software in MXS code is like saying that there's a scavenger hunt for drunks at a bar.

  • VX sounds scary (Score:3, Funny)

    by Work Account ( 900793 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:38PM (#13935687) Journal
    I can't imagine using anything called VX to encode cute videos of my blonde hair blue eyed daughter's 2nd birthday party!

    (Joke Hint: 1st search result for VX [google.com])

  • They admit to it! (Score:5, Informative)

    by inio ( 26835 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:39PM (#13935696) Homepage
    Check this page:

    http://www.vx30.com/pages.php?cid=MDEwMTgxMTgyMTk4 [vx30.com]

    Zentu Flash Video Compression

    The Flash Video files created by the Zentu encoder use the open source library FFMPEG which is a derivative of MPEG 4 . Use of the FFMPEG is governed by the LGPL who license can be viewed in full here. Our MPEG 4 Patent License is filed with MPEGLA.

    Why FFMPEG?

    We've found that FFMPEG is one of the most high quality MPEG 4 codecs in the world. The quality of the Flash Video that Zentu creates with FFMPEG is absolutely stellar!! Please visit our Flash Video Showcase to check out the amazing quality of our samples.

    How do we use FFMPEG?

    As described by the LGPL Zentu is a "work that uses the Library". Which means that Zentu for Flash has accessors that use the FFMPEG "library" but is not itself a derivative of that library. Furthermore the FFMPEG library was not modified in any way to work with Zentu nor is it compiled as part of the Zentu executable.

    • Re:They admit to it! (Score:4, Insightful)

      by fishybell ( 516991 ) <.moc.liamtoh. .ta. .llebyhsif.> on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @04:48PM (#13935800) Homepage Journal
      I think you hit the nail on the head

      Now that they openly say how they use an opensource product in an, as far as I can tell, legitimate way, what's there to beef about? Do we still need to screem and holler and hoot?

      This vaguely reminds me of when linksys was using GPL'ed software on their routers and not releasing the source. Everything just blew over once they started using the GPL correctly.

      From what I can tell, Zentu isn't so much about a propriety codec as it is about a transcoding solution for easier deployment. They happen to use FFMPEG for the gruntwork, but if the rest is legitimately their code, no harm no foul.

      • Re:They admit to it! (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Krach42 ( 227798 )
        In the LGPL, they have to allow you to update the library to a newer version. This means either you dynamically link into the library, or you provide the object code necessary to rebuild your application if it's statically compiled.

        There was already an LGPL library in use in VX30, and they have still yet to comply with the conditions and terms of even the LGPL on that product.
        • I can't confirm this, but apparently they dynamically link:

          Furthermore the FFMPEG library was not modified in any way to work with Zentu nor is it compiled as part of the Zentu executable

          I'm not defending their previous actions in any way, but I find this to be the kind of this that the LGPL was designed for; use it, but don't abuse it. In addition, they claim to have licensed the MPEG 4 patent.

          • I'd be particularly amazed if they were doing everything properly. But I gotta admit, at least it looks like they're trying to respect the LGPL this time, rather than just running all over our IP rights.

    • Re:They admit to it! (Score:4, Informative)

      by LiquidCoooled ( 634315 ) on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @05:01PM (#13935917) Homepage Journal
      I just found this as well.

      Their software appears to be nothing more than a shell script, which doesn't really require a whole lot of code to operate.

      The guts and encoding are performed by the FFMpeg library and they get the glory.

      On the FFMPEG licensing page the following notes are made:

      Q: Bottom line: Should I be worried about legal issues if I use FFmpeg?
      A: Are you a private user working with FFmpeg for your own personal purposes? If so, there is remarkably little reason to be concered. Are you using FFmpeg in a commercial software product? Read on to the next question...

      Q: Since FFmpeg is licensed under the LGPL, is it perfectly all right to incorporate the whole FFmpeg core into my own commercial product?
      A: You might have a problem here. Sure the LGPL allows you to incorporate the code. However, there have been cases where companies have used FFmpeg in their projects, usually for such capabilities as superior MPEG-4 decoding. These companies found out that once you start trying to make money from certain technologies, the alleged owners of the technologies will come after their dues. Most notably, MPEG-LA (licensing authority) is vigilant and diligent about collecting for MPEG-related technologies.

      Now, on the vx30 page, they also mention that: Our MPEG 4 Patent License is filed with MPEGLA.

      I would say in this case they aren't doing anything wrong (providing they are actually licensed).
  • So many are trying to prove OSS as un-innovative, and yet, so many steal so much from it.
  • Looking at their press release, the first line reads in part "Maui X-Stream (MXS)". Usually, the abbreviation is the company's stocks' ticker symbol. But I did a quick search and found that Maui X-Stream is not publically traded. It looks like they are trying to create the impression of being a real, publically traded corporation, without all the trouble of an SEC filing.
  • We know those guys are crooks, why the hell are we helping getting them known?

    This, and the GUBA story earlier, makes me wonder about ./.

    How much to run an ad as a "story"?

     

  • DAMN IT!!!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)

    by zentu ( 584197 ) * on Wednesday November 02, 2005 @06:02PM (#13936508)
    /rant

    I have been using this nick name for over 10 years, and NOW some retarted company is using it... I made this entire nickname up while on the john. I was planning on buying zentu.com, but WHENEVER I had the money to buy the domain some marketing group had it, and being a poor college student doesn't allow me to pay $300+ to register it.

    I am pissed off now. First this stupid company trys to repackage OSS products to profit, and now they steal my damn nickname.

    /end rant

    • I am pissed off now. First this stupid company trys to repackage OSS products to profit, and now they steal my damn nickname. Be a little more creative and a little less whiney - Zen2, ZenTwo, ZenToo are still available.
    • That sucks. I keep hoping someone steals my slash-dot nickname -- ta ma de. I doubt anyone will cause it sounds stupid. However it would be funny to see some company go to market with "ta ma de" not knowing that it is slang in Taiwan for "Oh, Shit"
  • Do they really say that they're the guys behind CherryOS? Hay guyz we maybe did took something from that OrangePC project... and guess what, now we're starting something else. Remember, from the guys behind CherryOS means it's really good stuff we're doing. You can trust us. Really.
  • MauiX will most likely never make anything that is there own software. Here are some links this one is the pakistani offshoring company that produced Cherryos, VX30 and ZENTU for MAUIX http://www.elance.com/c/fp/main/viewportfolio.pl?a ction=listportfolio&view_person=comsdev&catid=1021 6 [elance.com] Here is that companies website COMSDEV http://www.comsdev.com.pk/portfolio.html [comsdev.com.pk] This is someone that worked for COMSDEV http://216.92.122.128/projects/10909.html [216.92.122.128] BilalNiaz Scroll down that site to find his name an
    • More stuff to wonder about.
      Unknown Theora config packet: %d
      ffmpeg: cyuv: got a buffer with %d bytes when %d were expected
      VN:libavcodec
      cool a new vlc code ,contact the ffmpeg developers and upload the file

      There is more in the Executable. If ffmeg is not part of the EXE
      why is this in there? Not to mention VN:libavcodec and others

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