Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista 293
schnikies79 wrote to mention an article on the Times Online site, where they report that a 'substantial number' of Vista PCs will be unable to play HD-DVDs or Blu-ray discs, as a result of DRM requirements made by the operating system. From the article: "Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said."
MSFT Development Cycle (Score:4, Funny)
Ready!
Fire!
Aim!
Not at all, they use Agile (Score:3, Funny)
Ready!
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Aim!
Re:MSFT Development Cycle (Score:4, Insightful)
You do know that Apple and OSX will have exact same DRM requirements as Vista to play HD-DVD/B-R content that have the HDCP flag enabled. That this is a requirement in this particular media standard that any player (including standalone non-computer based players) will need to follow to be able to play it (outside of a cracked version for Linux maybe). So following your logic, OSX is collapsing as well, or will not be able to play these discs at all.
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Paging DVD Jon (Score:5, Funny)
DVD Jon to the white courtesy phone, please.
Re:Paging DVD Jon (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm actually hoping the technology advances to the point where it can enforce the letter of the license *EXACTLY* so people wake up to how oppressive the various license agreements (both the Windows one and the ones for the music and movie media) are.
If people had any idea how bad it was (can't show a DVD on a college dorm shared TV because that's a public display that the DVD doesn't give you a license for ; can't install windows on VMs for testing without paying more ; etc) - they'd object much more strongly.
The current situation where it's easy to break Windows and DVD licenses just advantages unethical companies and people and hurts the ones that attempt to be law abiding.
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You'll get an inadvertent consumer revolution in the form of a wave of returned merchandise from your mouth breathers at Best Buy. They'll leave the store perhaps only barely consci
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You'll get an inadvertent consumer revolution in the form of a wave of returned merchandise from your mouth breathers at Best Buy. They'll leave the store perhaps only barely conscious of the effect they just had on the whole DRM issue by returning the DRM-managed paperweights they bought- paperweights that had pretended to be computers and high end electronics in the store.
Gods, I hope so. But I'm just too old and cynical to think it'll play out that way. Most likely (IMHO at least), you'll have sale
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First off, I never worked a help desk. I did on site service. To put me through college with an engineering degree, I might add. Second, calling the actual computer the CPU is not incorrect, it's merely old school.
Now get off my lawn.
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I'll bet you're a lot of fun at parties.
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"No, the WHITE phone"
Old News (Score:2)
Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:5, Informative)
For anyone who's been following the recent debates about Vista, this is already old news. But now the mainstream seems to be picking up on it.
What the article doesn't mention is that, probably precisely for this reason, there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012. [arstechnica.com] Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.
That doesn't make the system anymore pleasing though. I wonder how far Microsoft will actually get with it. Customers do seem to get upset with this, and it wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has had to make "concessions" because of public criticism.
Peter Gutmann's paper [auckland.ac.nz] on Vista's content protection is really recommended reading, even if it's a bit polemic. And nothing beats Microsoft's own document [microsoft.com], written by the same guy that was interviewed for Times Online.
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To me this raises two questions. 1) what about HD-DVD? 2) is this so-called agreement on paper?
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I can't comment on the first, but as to the second point: This is essentially a rumour that was "leaked" at a conference, and picked up by journalists. Read the arstechnica article linked above. It links to a German article that is the original source for this "rumour". Conveniently for Sony and Microsoft, now everybody seems to be assured that all of this won't be real for a while. I doubt you'd get anythin
Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:4, Informative)
What the article says is that there is an agreement not to implement the Image Constraint Token (ICT) yet. This is a token that forces a downgrade of analog signals. This is why the Xbox 360 can have a HD-DVD add-on without a HDMI port.
This does not apply to digital output. Even if the discs don't have this set, you still need HDCP if you want to get a digital link to the monitor.
So, if you are using VGA to the monitor you are ok for the moment, but stuffed if you are using DVI or HDMI without HDCP.
Of course, this understanding comes from reading the AACS licence agreement (freely available from the aacsla website). Unfortunately, this agreement is as clear as mud, so I may be wrong.
Either you are mistaken or Marsh is mistaken. (Score:4, Interesting)
What he DID say according to TFA [timesonline.co.uk] was "At the moment HD DVD and Blu-ray Discs certainly require such protection."
I don't know why he would be misinformed, or why, given the importance of this issue to Microsoft, he would be less than careful about what he said.
Most likely, current disks really don't play, because of some complexity in the interaction between Vista's DRM software and hardware that results in an illogical and unintended consequence.
If current disks will play, why on earth wouldn't he have taken great pains to say so and to stress the point.
Re:Either you are mistaken or Marsh is mistaken. (Score:5, Informative)
However, even if the disc doesn't have this set, you still can't get unencrypted digital output (such as DVI without HDCP). Unencrypted digital output is simply not one of the allowed output formats of AACS encrypted media.
Thus, you will be able to currently play discs at full resolution over VGA, but (without new HDCP capable hardware) it simply won't work over DVI.
In other words, Marsh was right. (Score:2)
but article is wrong about only Vista needing HDCP (Score:3, Informative)
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I've seen a S**Y TV that supports 1920x1080 over HDCP but only 1280x768 over VGA.
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Sorry, I don't understand. How can the disc require HDCP? The OS is the only thing that can enforce such a requirement... how can the disc know that the computer does or does not have HDCP? The disc isn't software, it's data the OS reads and does with as it pleases, whether that be enforcing DRM standards or not. So I'm missing something.
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Luckily it hasn't been enabled on any discs yet (HDDVD discs aren't even region coded).
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According to the license agreement, I assume, not any technical feature of the disk itself. So it's like I thought -- a policy enforced voluntarily by the OS -- and I was confused by wording.
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Argh. Blogger is down. Paraphrase:
Human beings are inherently and irreparably analog. Until there are digital, encrypted inputs into our brains, the analog hole will always be (as it always has been) the human interface. End of story. Game, set, match.
Trying to close the analog hole is like trying to rake water uphill. It's not gonna happen, and it's just costing the consumer more money - every dollar that the industry spends on making piracy harder is just another dollar that the legal, paying consumer will have to help them recuperate (read: price hikes for paying customers). Enough of thi
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content played over a digital connection currently requires HDCP hardware on both the player and display side or it will not play -- this is as true today on XP as it is on Vista.
Currently, HDCP protected video (all HD and BD movies at this point) are capable of playback over an analog connection -- i.e. component video. This is the work around -- those with out HDCP computers or TVs can play
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Peter Gutmann has stated that your concerns hit the nail on the head. There are at least some monitors that are definitely not HDCP-enabled, even though the manufacturer claims
Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:4, Funny)
[CUT TO: the Construct (empty but for Neo and Trinity)]
"'kay, so whaddya need?"
"Lawsuits. Lots of lawsuits".
[Immediately, the construct is filled with endless rows of grey-suited lawyers with briefcases]
Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:5, Insightful)
What people are whining and complaining about is that Microsoft is actually following a standard. These same people are the ones that complain when Microsoft doesn't follow other standards like CSS2. It's just that the standard they are following happens to be one that implements DRM, and now they're going on about how "Oh, gee, they fully-implemented the standard!"
*sigh*
Here's the answer: don't buy HD-DVDs and BDs that require HDCP. Duh. Vote with your feet. If enough people really put their money where their mouth is (as opposed to what they normally do, which is just paying lip-service), and truly advocated that others do the same, it will make a difference. Sadly, most people are so weak in their convictions that when their favorite movie comes out requiring HDCP, they will just buy it no matter what.
Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not good.
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Are these disks going to be labeled, or will it be like DRMed CDs whic
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You mean like how none of us bought DivX and Circuit City finally gave
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just like you can't buy an addon to play burned PS2 or xbox games?
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What if.... (Score:3, Funny)
Typical (Score:2, Funny)
I love watching my downloaded copies of Sponge Bob and playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure on the big screen!
Whenever there is an article critical of Microsoft, there is always some astroturfer pointing out how it is a good thing.
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Lets's review:
* Tragic (or dramatic) irony occurs when a character onstage is ignorant, but the audience watching knows his or her eventual fate, as in Sophocles' play Oedipus the King.
This is you, minus the eventual outcome (unless everyone knows you'll get modded down
* Socratic irony takes place when someone (clas
Stating the Obvious (Score:2)
Viva los FOSS anarchistas! Viva el revolution!
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Article subject is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
The next-gen DVD's will work with Vista, but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware if the HD DVD has the HDCP flag.
Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all.
Re:Article subject is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
It may be disabled for Blu-Ray, but it is definately enabled for HD-DVD, which is exactly why the guy that wrote BackupHDDVD did it - his computer wouldn't play his HD-DVDs in their original format, despite a brand new monitor and a less-than-a-year-old video card.
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Sony is working with the Blu-Ray group to push their standard, which decided (as a group), that they weren't going to enable the flag (just yet), so that people could get used to the format, and so as not to penalize early adopters on HD (TVs, Computers, etc.).
MicroSoft is working with the HD-DVD consortium, who decided "screw the early adopters", upgrade your hardware, or take a hike.
So what you're saying is that on Vista, MicroSoft's "Next Gen" operating system, Sony back
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HDDVD doesn't even have region protection...
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Re: ICT, HDCP, and AACS
Dear sirs or madams,
You are entirely confusing two seperate parts of the Advanced Access Content System (AACS). This is understandable since AACS is intended to be confusing. The Image Constraint Token (ICT) is what degrades signal quality when using an analog connection (VGA, S-Video, etc). It is intented to close the "analog hole," and prevent near-perfect copies from being produced. The XBox360 uses analog outputs, so it falls into this category. It is r
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Re:Article subject is wrong (Score:5, Informative)
Even if the disc doesn't have this set, you'll still need HDCP if you want a digital link to the monitor.
Re:Its a scam (Score:5, Insightful)
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Even having done that, I'm still not sure what the requirements actually are.
The current HD standards are a complete mess. For instance HD-DVD still hasn't sorted out whether it will have region-coding. This is despite HD-DVD devices already shipping.
Then you know something Microsoft doesn't know (Score:2)
"At the moment" are his words. He could have said "in the future" but he said "at the moment."
uhuh (Score:3, Funny)
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Orwell was right (Score:5, Funny)
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Your brain's license to Microsoft 1984 has expired and you are no longer permitted to use Microsoft 1984 in any way.
Error 0x8000002e: Imagination query failed (BRM exception)
To purchase the continued right to use Microsoft 1984 will cost you $19.84 for this year. Please indicate your acceptance of this charge by:
Microsoft - What Do You Want To Think Today?
except.... (Score:3, Insightful)
At least until that crack hit's the bittorrent sites that disables this "feature".
Oh noes! (Score:4, Funny)
Recent Headlines (Score:5, Insightful)
EMI Considers Abandoning DRM on CDs
No Ceasefire in DVD Format Battle
Today is a good day for DRM to die...
"the studios' new operating system" (Score:3, Interesting)
I think that just about sums it up. Why is MS in the studios' pockets anyway?
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To Microsoft: Steve, Bill, you gotta implement DRM in your OS, or your users aren't going to be watching HDCP movies through it.
To Apple: Mr Jobs, you're a stand up guy, tell you what, your OS can completely ignore the HDCP bit and give your users that warm snuggly cosy feeling of feeling like they've stuck it to the man.
It ain't going to happen. OSX
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You know that Apple is part of the group behind Blu-Ray, right?
I bet they start including Blu-Ray drives "Real Soon" as an option.
Slow news day? (Score:2, Insightful)
You mean Peter Gutmann was RIGHT? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have to admit that even though Peter Gutmann is a respected computer security expert while I know virtually nothing about Vista, I was inclined to think his analysis [auckland.ac.nz] just had to be wrong. He had to be misunderstanding something, or positing a hypothetical situation that would never arise with real-world commercial gear, or something like that. Microsoft simply couldn't be that stupid.
Now it turns out that he's right, and that presumably-unintended but not-unforeseeable consequences of Vista's DRM scheme will prevent it from being used in the one way you'd think Microsoft would most want it to be used. It is precisely the enthusiastic with money to devote to their video hobby who are likely to be the early adopters of PCs as home video platforms.
Microsoft is coming perilously close to providing the platform that secures protected perfectly content by preventing _anyone_ from viewing it.
OK, for us who arent *nix experts. (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems MS is being bashed for following the requirements being set forth by the media producers. Whereas a number of MS practices may be less than honorable, in this case from what I see they are simply holding to the requirements of the format standard.
All in all I think the media companies like Sony have been given enough DRM rope and are within a year or two of effectively fashioning themselves a noose from it, but that's just MHO on the topic.
When Microsoft is doing something wrong, (Score:2)
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A) Support the format with the restrictions the owners of the format require.
B) Don't support the formats they know will be wanted by the users
They should choose B?
They aren't "following orders" in this case. They are doing what apparently is legally required for them to be allowed to support the format. If you want to vilify MS for things they choose to do which are malevolent (like in my opinion having 6 different versions of an OS which are simply licensing flags on the
So don't support the format. (Score:2)
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I simply outright do not believe that U. S. law requires Microsoft to prevent the owner of a legally-purchased DVD U.S.-region HD-DVD from displaying that content for on the owner's legally-purchased video display.
I think what you are saying is that Microsoft intended to implem
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I think you're dreaming if there are any more than a pittance of users that are thinking: "I need my Hi-Def movies played on my computer and I'll only buy the OS that supports it."
Think about the 'market' for HiDef Computer users. You have
1. Very very small market of people that use computers directly as home theatre devices (I do this for web browsing/games)
2. Very very small market of users that
Re:OK, for us who arent *nix experts. (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem, though, is that this situation did not need to be this way -- Microsoft could have teamed up with the electronics industry to say, effectively, "go to H*ll" to the content producers. The content producers would then have had to choose between (A) not releasing HD content or (B) releasing a non-DRM'd version. Their claim is that they would choose (A). But, they're full of crap -- doing so would deny them a new revenue stream in the face of increased competitive pressures. If the market didn't force them to switch, their stockholders would have.
[Note one problem: Sony is in both camps.]
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Since the media producers aren't actually paying for the software, it's appropriate that the people who are paying for it take notice that their interests aren't taking the highest priority.
I realize there is a twisty maze of legal requirements by which th
Fortunately my multimedia PC won't run Vista (Score:2)
But we all knew this already... (Score:2)
Not particularly unusual (Score:3, Interesting)
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All drivers involved with media playing is going to have to be signed (maybe all of them have to be signed, I don't recall at the moment and I'm confident about the first part of this sentence), and you'll never be able to get your virtual drive signed.
Virtual drive software has no future on Vista; it is merely one feature that's
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Above and beyond (Score:2)
Vista cannot and should not make any kind of decision on the validity of the disk beyond checking that it is correctly formatted.
All Microsoft will get is a reputation for unreliability above and beyond the one they have now.
They already have lost their credibility... (Score:2)
You will find that 99% of
So as a result, I now screen out all
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Was that clear enough? The media companies require digital signals to use HDCP, regardless of whether the Image Constraint Token is there.
You can get full resolution HD video right now if you don't have an HDCP digital connection by using analog outputs, whether that be on your HD-DVD player, BlueRay player, or computer. This is because the ICT is not enabled. In the future they MAY enable it. In that case, those without a digital connection with HDCP
priceless? (Score:4, Insightful)
Vista OS Upgrade: $150
Card and cable for streaming HD A/V to TV: $180
Internal Blueray Drive: $900
Blueray movie: $40
Not being able to view legally purchased media on legally purchased hardware because of arbitrary content restrictions: $3770 apparently.
All prices approximate but realistic. Thanks Hollywood and Microsoft, obviously the consumer is king!
Another reason I won't upgrade (Score:4, Insightful)
This is one of a long list of reasons that I won't be upgrading to Vista or HD-DVD/BluRay in the forseeable future. The sad thing for all of the companies involved is that I usually am an early adopter of technology.
I was one of the first people I knew to own a Tivo, DVD-player and an HD set (okay, I didn't own the set but I pressured my dad into buying one and he was really happy with it). I bought a copy of XP pretty much as soon as it was available. Last count, I owned nearly 500 DVDs.
And that's about as far as my relationship with these companies go. I--a legitimate, paying customer--am unwilling to be inconvenienced one single second, or pay a single extra dollar, to be treated like a criminal. I simply won't do it. So I'll continue buying DVDs until they stop manufacturing them, hopefully by which point this whole fiasco will have blown over.
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The fact is that the market exists the way it is. I've set the bar for what I'm willing to buy and put up with. They set a price, and when I'm comfortable with the price and the goods I get, I purchase the goods. That's how a market economy works.
Now, as to your other "points."
1) I generally show up at movies late to miss the previews. Since I go see them at matinees or late-night shows, this tends to not
Subject is backwards (Score:2, Informative)
read the spec, idiots (Score:4, Informative)
READ THE GODDAMN SPECIFICATION BEFORE YOU SPOUT OUT BOLLOCKS!
Link [microsoft.com]
- HD will output flawlessly on any output when HDCP is not requested by the content producer
- If HDCP is requested, the content can either be degraded to standard definition or blocked completely
- It will be degraded, not blocked. Content providers are greedy but not stupid
That times article is retarded, and makes it sound as though you can't watch HD on a digital monitor at all but "huuuuuuuurrrr it'll be just fine on analog." To reiterate, content providers might be greedy but they're not stupid. Given the option of degrading or blocking, they will go for degrading so that you can be enticed to think how much better it would be in HD if you go buy their fancy kit, and also to reduce all the complaints of "my disc is broken!"Seriously, seeing as half the people responding above don't know what they're talking about,how is the average consumer supposed to know that their disc isn't playing because they need a better TV?
The amount of FUD surrounding this is really pissing me off, especially when supposedly reputable sources like the times end up shitting out absolute nonsense.
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If the content provider has flaged that content protection is required then you can only play it in full fidelity with a protected path.
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Because you coundn't?
Most people do not actually "buy" their OS as such. They buy a computer, with whatever OS is preloaded by the OEMs.
Even for those competent and aware enough to go and buy a retail version of XP to replace the pre-loaded Vista would have to spend a lot of money, easily 1/2 the cost of their new computer ($199 for XP Home at Walmart, or a single-install version of XP Home for $119). This is on top of whatever they would pay for pre-installed Vista. Plu
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They can use legislation and bully tactics to reduce filesharing networks. They can't do much to stop casual copying, except through these technological measures. They're fighting against both forms of copyright infringement doing this.
I'd say that fair use gets killed in the crossfire, but when you get right down to it, they don't care about your fair use rights and probably wish that such exemptions to copyright didn't exist, anyway.
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Reviewers would be the next party to worry, but they usually get things for free in order to pump up promotion.
Hmm, now that I mention
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You may not but plenty of consumers have already proven they will. [apple.com].
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Who stream copies anyway? (Score:3, Informative)
The future of media cracking isn't signal capture, its firmware hacking DVD drives (if that much effort will even be required).
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At some point, Linux will be able to play these discs because the DRM will be cracked. When that day comes, I will not have the restrictions at the OS level that you will. Until that day comes, I won't be purchasing either of these restrictive technologies. Like I said, enjoy your Vista.
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five c
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-AC Slashdot, 01/09/07
There still isn't a legal open-source codec for regular DVD's, let alone HD-DVD. The entire industry requires secrecy and control.
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Not yet. But soon.
-2 offtopic, -2 flamebait. (Score:2)
I have a monitor, Windows XP and PirateBay bookmarked. There is no service on the market that can get me content of better quality or more conveniently or with better standards compliance.
As long as studios treat me like a video copying pirate, why should I give them more money?
I would like to give them money, but they have already chosen how to treat me.
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I don't have an HD TV, nor do I really have intent to get one in the next year. Same goes for the HD players.
As long as studios treat me like a video copying pirate, why should I give them more money?
Ironically, I don't want one either, but because I am a "video copying pirate."
Even with my typical 0.15 share ratio, it will be a long while 'till I have that kind of bandwidth to spare. As I download all movies and television I watch.
And I don't see why the studios are making such a headache for