Professor Michael Geist on Vista's Fine Print 314
Russell McOrmond writes "With Microsoft's Vista set to hit stores tomorrow, Michael Geist's weekly Law Bytes column (Toronto Star version, homepage version) looks at the legal and technical fine print behind the operating system upgrade. The article notes that in the name of shielding consumers from computer viruses and protecting copyright owners from potential infringement, Vista seemingly wrestles control of the "user experience" from the user. If you are a Canadian and think that the owner of computers should be in control of what they own, rather than some third party (whether virus authors or the manufacturer/maker), then please sign our Petition to protect Information Technology property rights."
That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
All three of them? I wouldn't have thought that three people makes a stampede, no matter how fast they run.
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It's not the speed of the running, it's the weight of the runners...
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
"...Developers! Developers! Developers!..."
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The next group of culpable parties are those who participate in the scheme. The people who pay for supporting hardware and install Vista on it are enabling this to continue. In their absence, it would not happen. They are indirectly responsible. Or perhaps irresponsible.
The appropriate thing for those of us
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Yes, do look at FairPlay (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, look at it. Its dominance is forcing the record labels to consider abandoning DRM altogether (see prior Slashdot article). And it's from a company who said early on that they weren't a fan of DRM and has refused to license it.
Let's put it this way - less DRM means more iPods sold. The iTMS is just infrastructure to sell iPods, not a massive source of revenue. And they could make good money licensing FairPlay.
Maybe I'm wearing rose-colored gl
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
There is just no reason to go to the junk that is called Vista. I hope WinXP will still allow me to do the few things I need to in MS Windows for the next 3-5 years, then I can see what the OS landscape is like.
As for others saying Apple is just as bad as MS when it comes to restrictions and DRM, they are clueless. I never had to do any "activation" on my two Intel Macs. The only DRM I have found is with iTMS, so I just don't use it or buy music. I did buy a few TV episodes from iTMS, however when I couldn't burn them to DVD to watch on my big TV, I stopped that as well. OS X is just far better than anything from MS. I get the juicy *nix that I love and a very good user experience for me as well as an easy to use experience for my wife.
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Hmm I've never had to do any "activation" on any prebuilt Windows PCs I've bought from Dell, etc. You can't build your own Mac which is where PC users come into activation issues, how does that compare?
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Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Informative)
Amazon Software Bestsellers (January 29 12:45 PM ET)
2 Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007
4 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade
5 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade
12 Microsoft Office Professional 2007 Upgrade
13 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Full Version
14 Microsoft Office Student and Teacher Edition 2003
15 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Full Version
Microsoft has twenty titles in the top fifty.
I'd say these numbers suggest that Vista is going to do just fine in the domestic consumer market.
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Funny)
Amazon Software Bestsellers (January 29 12:45 PM ET)
2 Microsoft Office Home and Student 2007
4 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Upgrade
5 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Upgrade
12 Microsoft Office Professional 2007 Upgrade
13 Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Full Version
14 Microsoft Office Student and Teacher Edition 2003
15 Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Full Version
Microsoft has twenty titles in the top fifty.
I'd say these numbers suggest that Vista is going to do just fine in the domestic consumer market.
SHhhhhh. This is Slashdot, there's no place for money talk here. The POINT is that everyone will NOT buy it and only HATE it. I'll stick with BeOS thank you.
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It surprised me to see Ultimate Vista so high on the charts.
It suggests that the price and the hardware requirements for Vista are not the barriers some geeks believe. It suggests that the discounted pricing on Vista Premium for Vista Ultimate purchasers was dead on target.
It suggests that buyers have nothing in common with the Geek, an entirely diffe
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Vista Basic is to be found in the top fifty, but far down the list.
I think the opportunity for confusion is overstated.
The businessman or professional will be attracted to features like whole-disk encryption, others will see Ultimate as the right choice for the core system of an increasingly complex and sophisticated home network.
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Interesting. That datum made me decide to check something a little more relevant: The status of Apple in Computer hardware sales. Given that Apple doesn't focus on selling its operating system off the shelf, it seem more appropriate to check the GP's assertion that people are 'stampeding' to the Mac by seeing how Apple computers are selling.
Now, this list [amazon.com] is updated hourly, so it's subject to change, but when I checked, Apple had the top 3 positions in the be
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At any given moment, there are a half dozen or so Macs on the market, compared to the hundreds of variations on the commodity Wintel PC. We'll ignore the fact that you have left direct sellers like Dell out of the equation.
Amazon.com is as close as we have to the old Sears, Roebuck Catalog on the net, the clearest reflection of middle class tastes a
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:That stampede sound you are hearing.... (Score:5, Interesting)
According to Microsoft's EULA: "You may not work around any technical limitations in the software"
I think they just helped you with your decision.
Linux now illegal! (Score:3, Funny)
Just wait until we hear, "I'm sorry sir but installing Linux on your machine to get around the technical limitations of Windows is now against the EULA".
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No, not really. You CAN let it draw the full screen for each program, and run Defender, and run full-drive indexing, and throw open a media share, but you can also just turn all of that off.
All else being equal, go for the Vista machine over the Mac. MS lives and dies by accommodating power users; Mac lives and dies by making an elegant universal interface. Unless you already know Mac, or really love U
Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Funny)
"You shouldn't be using Vista, because it won't let you watch porn you downloaded from the Internet for free. It has this thing called DRM which will turn the good good parts to mosaic. We technical people call this downsampling. Oh, and it may even connect to Microsoft or the police and tell them what you're watching."
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Another plan of attack (Score:2)
Seems like DRM and the other "trustworthy" shit in Vista could run into this issue too.
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Why not combine the ideas? Everyone should begin an order for a PC from Dell, HP, etc - and then fight to get XP or Linux on it, regardless of the OEM pushing. When (assumed) request cannot be met, cancel the order.
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Insightful)
But, if Vista pisses off businesses, then MS has a real problem on their hands. Businesses are already reluctant to change. They're definitely going to reject Vista if it makes them less productive. At least I'm hoping that's how it would turn out.
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If MS sends out the word that their new OS is a must-have, these people will only be held b
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DingDingDingDing! (Score:4, Insightful)
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The point of protesting is to make your voice heard. If you get enough people involved, then word spreads about the problem. While the things you mention would be somewhat effective, the best predictor of effectiveness is probably the amount of people you can ge
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:5, Interesting)
Not to buy. Have not given MS a dime since 1995.
Explain to friends and workplaces. I cannot recommend MS products over the alternatives. With my friends, I clearly tell them if they are asking my advice, my answer is to buy a Mac. None to date have taken my advice, and they still ask me about "Windows problems" when I politely told them that I don't do windows and that I could not help them with windows problems upfront. Workplaces. They seem to be MS dependant despite years of suggestions to change.
Refund? The principle of the thing is worth more than the money, and for most people, neither is that important to them.
All I can say is that this petition is a day late and a dollar short, but although I have fixed my microsoft problem. I still know plenty of people that don't care or just won't change from the MS problem.
I am _not_ brand loyal/disloyal. I treat all things as generic tools and will use what is best for the job at the current time, and things come and go on my shitlist, and I don't hold a permanant grudge until the company has gone too far. To date, only two companies have made my permanant shitlist, and I have brought one of them to court as well, and neither are Microsoft.
Macs were on my offlist before OS X, but they have seen the light
Re:Futile petitions aside (Score:4, Interesting)
The cost, to Microsoft, of the Refund is not just a lost sale. It's also the time and money that went into licensing and de-licensing that copy, and returning the money. It's not cheap for them.
There's also the fact that everyone who does this can now tell everyone they know that they got their money back for their unused copy of Windows. Eventually, it'll stick in peoples' heads that they aren't stuck with Windows.
It also gives you the ability to defuse anyone who says 'Yeah, but I've already paid for it, so I might as well use it.' If you haven't actually received the refund, they'll say it's like a rebate and you won't get it.
Petitions are not futile... (Score:4, Informative)
Our existing petitions have already had an important effect, letting politicians know that there are more constituencies in this issue than the incumbent industry associations. Our new petition tries to move away from the myths that DRM is about "content control" when in fact it is about "hardware control". This "hardware control" impacts your usage of hardware you own, regardless of whether you are using "premium content" or not.
This is also not a Microsoft and/or Apple issue, as these bad laws impact all users of technology whether or not they are ever a customer of Microsoft or Apple.
http://www.digital-copyright.ca/petition/ict/ [digital-copyright.ca]
"THEREFORE, your petitioners call upon Parliament to prohibit the application of a technical protection measure to a device without the informed consent of the owner of the device, and to prohibit the conditioning of the supply of content to the purchase or use of a device which has a technical measure applied to it. We further call upon Parliament to recognise the right of citizens to personally control their own communication devices, and to choose software based on their own personal criteria."
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An internet petition, of all things? (Score:3, Insightful)
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Actually the petition linked to in the summary is not an internet petition, you are supposed to print it out, and mail it to your Member of Parliament (or to a local collector if you prefer, they list many on the webpage). I signed it and I encourage all Canadians reading slashdot to take a look.
And to be clear: it is not a "petition against Vista" or something like that. It is a petition to prevent extensions to Canadian copyright law. There is currently pressure
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Our Parlement is in a minority situation, and they need every vote they can get.
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EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Informative)
The concept is referred to as a "contract of adhesion," where insofar as the terms in the contract are those that can be reasonably expected to be found in similar contracts for similar purpose, the contract is considered binding whether or not a "meeting of the minds" has occurred over the material details of the contract. I actually don't like contracts of adhesion at all, and wish they didn't exist. But they do.
In many states, and I believe now in at least one federal appellate district, EULA's have been ruled to be contracts of adhesion. You can imagine my alarm. So what I'm telling you is that that EULA you didn't read is likely legal. Evil, but legal.
C//
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How many people really read their 10 page mortgage application? Surprisingly few. And yet the agreement is legal.
Actually, in some states, my own included, not reading some contracts before agreeing to them is grounds for the contract to be negated. That's why some contracts require you to initial each page.
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Even if it's not legally binding... (Score:2)
Even if it's not legally binding, the EULA still speaks volumes about what Microsoft would rather you do and/or NOT do with *your* computer.
I switched a while ago, and I regret not doing it sooner.
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Re:EULA's and click thru's (Score:5, Informative)
In order to have a contract you need:
1) Offer
2) Acceptance
3) Consideration
4) Intention
5) Capacity to contract
Of most interesting is consideration. When you purchase an item from a store there's consideration. I offer my $5 for your pack of cigarettes. Their needs to be consideration on both sides to have a contract.
What I find interesting is that there is no consideration in a EULA; it's one sided. You've already paid for the license, and now you're being asked to agree to the terms after the contract has been made. At no point has any more consideration happened on your part.
Agreeing to an EULA IMO is like making a promise. If I promise someone a trip to Vegas for nothing in return, there is no contract, just a promise and it's unenforceable. I'm quite surprised no one has challenged an EULA under contract law asking where the consideration is when you agree to the therms? Simply agreeing to terms of usage without offering up any consideration is quite interesting because the money is paid to the store, and the store then sends money to the manufacturer.
Of course the problem lies in convincing a judge that a click-through agreement after a contract has been made is not binding, and who wants to battle Micro$oft? I for one don't.
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The only way around it is to remove bits of the software, like Windows Defender (sounds like a misnomer, more like "MS Monopoly Ensurer" to me) which are technically forbidden by the EULA. Now, recall that most that install this won't be savvy enough to d
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The article states:
For greater certainty, the terms and conditions remove any doubt about who is in control by providing that "this agreement only gives you some rights to use the software. Microsoft reserves all other rights." For those users frustrated by the software's limitations, Microsoft cautions that "you may not work around any technical limitations in the software."
If this really is in the license (I don't know) can it possibly be binding? For that matter, can AN
Can we create test cases? (Score:2)
Is there anything in the law that prevents me and my brother from collaborating to make a test case? For instance, I make a piece of software ("Hello, World!") with an unreasonable shrink-wrap EULA, then sue him (who's in cahoots with me) for breaching it. Can we more or less lead a judge to make a ruling on the issue?
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IANAL, but this seems possible... Of course, if trial arguments end up invoking DMCA or Copyright laws, your brother might end up in federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison.
Besides, wouldn't
Still missing some features. (Score:5, Funny)
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Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve Jobs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve J (Score:4, Insightful)
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Umm... the whole point of TPM modules is to deny the owner full control. And even if that was not the case, that's the agenda and the intent behind this hardware. If you ignore such factors, then nothing--no artifact whatsoever--is inherently bad or good and your use of the distinction becomes vaccuo
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Dude, that's like saying that the whole point of door locks is to deny the owner the access to his own house. Granted, TPM is completely useless for most applications; granted, it should NOT be implemented in the commodity hardware for the reasons hinted at in your post; but from the technical point of view, if you have the keys then you can re-sign your binaries and you DO have full control over your system.
Re:Old and busted: Bill Gates New hotness: Steve J (Score:5, Insightful)
Am I the only one who is getting tired of reading all kinds of "Microsoft DRM is evil!" posts, and then seeing a post the very next day talking about how awesome Apple is? One company is buckling to industry pressure and including DRM, the other has a fricking Trusted Platform Module in every new computer it makes. The double standard is infuriating.
So if I buy a mac, how does the DRM affect me? Do I have to worry about my computer becoming unusable if I change hardware? Do I have to worry about re-registering? Do I have to worry about registering in the first place? The answers are, of course, no, no, and no. So is there a chance Apple will delete software off of my computer without my permission as MS's built in security will? No. So what, exactly, is the issue? There is a chip with an encryption key on it in the box? Okay, so why should I care? I'm a pragmatist. If my files were being DRM'd so I could not move to something else or if Apple was restricting me in any way, maybe I'd care. Apple does put DRM on their music files, they sell, but I generally don't buy from them. I did buy a few songs once that I could not find elsewhere, but I legally stripped the DRM off with a freeware program and backed them up as a regular audio CD with no DRM. What's the problem?
I use Windows and OS X and Linux on the desktop. Currently I favor OS X because it gives me the best feature set for general tasks. If Apple starts implementing DRM in such a way as to inconvenience me, I'll migrate to something else. I'm not going to do so, however, unless the DRM does inconvenience me. I'm not being shortsighted either. Any use that prevents me from being able to move platforms would probably tip the balance away from Apple, as I value portability.
The only real restriction I've seen Apple implement with encryption is locking their software to their hardware (any Apple hardware not a specific machine). Since Apple only licenses their software to run on their platform the only people this inconveniences are people who plan to use the software but break the license, and that doesn't leave a lot of room for complaint. Would I prefer it if OS X would run on any hardware? Sure, it would be a great feature. The problem is Apple's main product would directly compete with an abusive monopoly, and that means it would die and we would not get to use it anymore. The traditional strategy for dealing with such a monopoly is to build a separate vertical chain of supply, which Apple has done. Breaking that chain before MS is stopped from their criminal monopoly abuse is not a real option for Apple, so I don't blame them at all for only licensing their OS for their hardware.
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So if Microsoft wrote a EULA that said you could only use this copy of Vista with the current computer, had to buy any hardware upgrades through Microsoft, and needed to buy a new copy of Vista with any new computer you bought, you'd be happy?
Umm, they do that already and it isn't about being happy, it is about being ethical and not causing me any issues. I have my copy of Windows (XP) installed in a VM so changing hardware is not a big deal.
How exactly does Microsoft's DRM give you *less* rights than
Rubbish (Score:3, Informative)
So if I buy a mac, how does the DRM affect me? Do I have to worry about my computer becoming unusable if I change hardware? Do I have to worry about re-registering? Do I have to worry about registering in the first place? The answers are, of course, no, no, and no.
Can you play high definition DRMed content on your mac? No, no, and no. Do you ever need to replace hardware on a Mac to the extent that you might break Vista's restrictions? No. This just isn't a fair comparison, as the parent poster said, Macs are by their very nature a limited platform. They don't have to activate your install or check that the hardware is the same because they know that you must be running it on hardware at least mostly purchased from them. There's no reason to bring software lock in l
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This is like saying 'my box is unhackable, therefore it is the most secure ever'... because you never connected it to the Internet.
No, it's a lot more like saying, "zebras are partially white." What the hell are you babbling about? You didn't address a single point in my post and instead are just writing unrelated nonsense. Get a clue.
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You don't change hardware on a mac, you throw it away and buy a new one!
The old tower in my living room begs to differ with you. I've swapped out RAM, added NICs, added a second video card, removed the original hard drive and added in three new ones (two at a time), replaced the DVD drive with a DVD burner, and added a TV tuner. I've never had to swap out the motherboard or power supply though, unlike most of my midrange PC towers.
At work I sort of throw them away. Every couple of years work gives me a
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Really? I'm not sure I agree with that. I guess you are saying that Microsoft would bury them but that might be harder than you think giving the potential for anti-trust lawsuits.
Are you kidding? MS has too much money for the laws to apply to them. Notice how they've been forced to un-bundle IE, WMP, XPS, .doc, etc. since they are obvious violations of antitrust law? Notice how they've been forced to open up their secret protocols that tie to their server offerings? The courts have done nothing to stop M
Good article (Score:2)
Wow, this Windows Defender(TM) seems like a piece of work. It can delete any piece of software it wants. firefox.exe, for example. (Come on, with all the security holes, it's practically spywa
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Careful mgiuca! (Flashback to the days of TRON, and a laser beam slowly emerges from a secret compartment right behind your chair) The operating system might decide to delete YOU!
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Where's the buzz? (Score:5, Insightful)
A search on Google News (UK) brings up loads of articles with negative titles "Buying Vista? Get a guarantee", "Windows Vista: Where Is The Wow?", "Windows Vista: the best reason to buy a Mac?", "Windows Vista disappoints, so get a Mac". And that's just in the first half of the results.
It really is quite amazing for a product that Microsoft has spend billions and many years to develop.
Of course the sad thing is that, because of its strangle hold on the market, it will still make billions and will be able to declare the launch a success.
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It's all about marketing (Score:3, Funny)
Tried to open Office 2007 and got a message about a license key and if I wanted to enter it. I clicked "No," and the entire screen went black and wouldn't come back up.
I shook my head and laughed as I walked away.
edit (Score:3, Informative)
I meant to explain that I was browsing at Best Buy and tried out their main display computer running Vista. It was set up at the end of an aisle with signs and speakers proclaiming what a great step up Vista was.
I guess I need a marketing department of my own to vet my posts before I click submit.
Who owns what ? (Score:2)
Well, Microsoft Corp. owns Microsoft Windows Vista, and by extension your computer (*), so, what's the point ?
</sarcasm>
(*) I mean, are you a computer user or a Microsoft OS end-user bound by license terms ?
"you may not work around..." Stunning! (Score:5, Interesting)
That's absolutely stunning. I wonder exactly how broadly that could be interpreted?
If I buy any kind of third-party utility... antivirus software, backup software, a defragmenter... isn't that "working around" technical limiations in the software Microsoft provides? Isn't Firefox arguable a "workaround" for technical limitations in Internet Explorer?
It's about time to stop calling it a "personal computer" and start calling it a "Microsoft corporate computer."
what does that mean? (Score:2)
Anyway, no matter how much it sucks, Vista doesn't steal your computer, and as such you don't need lawmakers or law enforcement to protect you. Download and burn an Ubuntu CD, and off you go.
How's that again? (Score:2)
Hm. I wonder what this writer would say to the "intellectual property" owner who claims the same "right" with regards to his copyrighted music or software?
Protecting tangible technology property rights doe (Score:3, Interesting)
Speaking to a group of copyright holders about this issue, Stewart Baker, Department of Homeland Security's assistant secretary for policy, said, "It's very important to remember that it's your intellectual property -- it's not your computer. And in the pursuit of protection of intellectual property, it's important not to defeat or undermine the security measures that people need to adopt in these days."
Nothing in this petition diminishes the legitimate rights o
Anyone else find it amusing... (Score:3, Funny)
...that the petition is the PITR petition?
I wonder how much user freedom Pitr would want people to have once he takes over Google...
What is Microsoft actually selling? (Score:2)
I have no idea what Microsoft is selling when you buy a "Windows Vista Box". They are saying they can change or cancel functionality of the product at any time, even one day after purchase, and w
Cutting through the fluff and fud... (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe it's about the HD Content Protection tech again which we've seen stories on here at Slashdot ad nauseum by now. Why is the editors even still approving this stuff? We'll soon enough know ever Slashdot members' stance on the matter.
Anyway... I agree DRM is stupid, but shouldn't these guys be barking at the paranoid media companies trying to enforce that junk, not Microsoft? Vista provides merely an implementation of the HDCP standa
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Wow, he was pretty unspecific there about what he was talking about.
No he wasn't. He mentioned very specific points, although he did not cover others that are equally annoying. The points he mentioned included activation/registration problems and MS reserving the right and implementing the tech to delete arbitrary programs from your machine.
Anyway... I agree DRM is stupid, but shouldn't these guys be barking at the paranoid media companies trying to enforce that junk, not Microsoft?
The media companie
How much computing power? (Score:2)
That sounds a little over blown. Max video bitrate is 40 Mbps (or is it MBytes/s?). So every million bits or so you check to make sure all is on the up and up. This doesn't sound very computationally intensive. Am I missing something?
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Yeah. The movie.
Which is all most people will be watching when they fire up Vista and their new hi-def projector. Not the systen internals.
Refuse help requests from Vista using relatives ? (Score:2)
I'd recommend Ubuntu but it's still only 95% ready as far as I am concerned, I can't picture an aunt using it there are some difficulties to overcome especially file permissions I can't imagine how to explain that to someone who is barley comfortable with just web
I spoke with my wallet... (Score:2)
BTW Microsoft's Mac business unit seems to live
Can you vote a corporation out of power? (Score:2)
But what about performance? (Score:4, Informative)
The options (Score:5, Insightful)
Those are the options. And they all suck.
This is an opportunity for somebody. Probably somebody in China.
My vist experiance (Score:4, Interesting)
I loaded it on a twin dual core with 4 gig of ram.
It booted slower than 2k pro
It would not allow me to install sybase (vista said it was a virus)
I could not run Office 2000 on it. I would just crash if it opened at all
I was unable to load my custom written backup software, it did not have a valid certificate
( i wrote the software )
I unloaded vista and put 2k back on it
I support self-determination (Score:2)
However, I will simply observe that if you *do* buy and use Vista, you'll not only be giving yourself the shaft, but you'll also be providing Microsoft assistance in persuing their goal of screwing everyone else on the planet who uses a computer.
Pointing out the consequences of somebody exercising their free will to make a given choice is not the same as trying to coerce them not to make said choice. You've got ever
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Or was that purchasing a lawyer before you hire/license an operating system?
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Sure, you have favorite software, I understand that, but that sort of behavior is just the geek version of religious zealots knocking on the door and trying to teach me the "right" way.
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I guess people are a bit concerned as to what MS deems as "really bad." MS is saying that we should trust it that they know what is good and bad but trusting MS is not something people like to do. For the MS haters, that means "firefox.exe" and "iTunes.exe" will be deleted. For the more pragmatic, what if MyCustomImportantApp.exe gets deleted?