Boeing Working on Fuel Cell Aircraft 163
"Boeing is working with development partners on a fuel cell-based small aircraft. It seems like a logical use of the technology. Now if they can come up with a quiet, personal-sized VTOL craft a la Paul Moller's Skycar (which is anything but quiet), we'll really have something." From the article "A Boeing research director was quoted as saying, "While Boeing does not envision that fuel cells will provide primary power for future commercial passenger airplanes, demonstrations like this help pave the way for potentially using this technology in small manned and unmanned air vehicles."
Better hurry up... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Better hurry up... (Score:5, Funny)
Skycar (Score:5, Funny)
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As long as that's a requirement, the plane wil
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Never be ready? I've been following the thing with interest for years, and as far as I know no one's ever seen the thing fly at all. Computerized or not.
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I don't know about the concept: a flying wing four feet wide, eight feet long, and only 400 mph seems a bit ambitious to me, but if the math supports it...
Though working model in hover mode seems more plausible to me.
I did not mean to imply that it was finished except for the control system. Although it does seem to me that the control system is significantly holding it back.
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Nope, it's probably as functional as the clay model concept car I saw at a local auto show...
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It's tethered, but... http://www.moller.com/medi.htm# [moller.com]
I'm not saying that Moller isn't something of a crackpot, and I suspect that he makes just enough progress to keep the investments rolling in without having to actually produce something viable on an automotive lot. However, he is making progress, and there may be a market for the vehicles if they work even half as well as he touts.
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It doesn't The power to weight ratio required is way more than you could get from any internal combustion engine that is reliable enough for manned flight.
It has hovered but how much fuel did it carry? How much load?
The control system is an excuse. Set it up for a conventional pilot if that is possible.
Frankly the Skycar makes the BD-5 look like a great
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In fact, his project has all the earmarks of the flying saucer efforts (Avro Aircar) efforts during the 50s. The only improvement Moller has over Avro's efforts is it uses less fuel and the risk of falling into the propulsion system is greatly reduced. Aside
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Then don't hold your breath. Funding for the next found of ATC/FAA restrucuring is going before Congress this year. Based on the currently announced plans, it will take 10-20 years before all planes adopt the new ADS-B technology (Info here [wikipedia.org] or here [adsb.gov]. That means several decades before Moller's car can hope to fly it
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"The Skycar remains perfectly positioned for the expected invention of antigravity."
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A&P certified mechanics are expensive.
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And to do that we just need to suspend the laws of physics. Unless you know of another way of lifting 2,000 lbs straight up in the air.
giant rubber bands (Score:4, Interesting)
This isn't totally humorous, incidentally. Think of aircraft carriers. You can achieve very short take-off distances without putting the giant (noisy) vertical-flight machinery on your aircraft -- because you can just leave it on the ground behind you. But you must then accept the fact that you can only launch in certain places.
Still, I'd bet there's a market for a cheap skycar that can only launch at certain public facilities but can land nearly anywhere.
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If you have the launch facility, you also have the landing facility. So we're back to the standard (cheap) Cessna.
Landing 'anywhere' = vertical landing. Loud, dangerous (crosswinds) and expensive on fuel.
Without some uber propulsion type (not fans pushing air), I don't see it happening any time soon.
Re:giant rubber bands (Score:4, Funny)
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Conveniently enough, that will also take care of much of the noise and venting of hot gases.
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The only way you get vehicle capable to taking of vertically is by having a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1. Ideally thrust significently greater than the weight of the vehicle (including pilot, passengers and luggage). The only easy way to do this is by moving a large amount of air.
Cheap aircraft (Score:2)
Ratios (Score:2)
ha ha (Score:4, Informative)
You probably mean the external combustion engine, also known as the jet engine. Only small airplanes use pistons and such. And the answer is: of course not. This is yet another PR stunt aimed at the Gasoline Is Eeeeeeevil ninnies of the world who failed freshman chemistry.
If not, what about fuel cell powered dirigibles?
I don't think the problem with dirigibles is how to power them. I think the problem is that there's just about zero demand for a transport service that's about as slow as a ship or train but neither as efficient nor as reliable.
A big cargo ship carrying 70,000 tons of cargo can cruise at 15 knots with its 50,000 HP engines running at 80%. The EPA helpfully estimates [epa.gov] big marine engine fuel consumption as about 250 grams per kilowatt-hour, which lets you work out that a cargo ship consumes about 4 grams of fuel per ton of cargo per kilometer traveled.
Four locomotives pulling a hundred-car freight train at 60-80 MPH, with each car carrying 100 tons of cargo, will burn about 7.5 gallons [bts.gov] each per mile. That works out to 7 grams of fuel per ton of cargo per kilometer traveled.
There's no way any vehicle that flies can ever come close to that kind of fuel efficiency. So who would want cargo delivery that's just as slow, but much more expensive?
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A gas turbine is an internal combustion engine. The combustion chambers are between the compressor and turbine stages, more or less in the middle. About the only thing you could call an "external combustion engine" would be a reheat also known as an "afterburner"... AFAIK the only civil aircraft with such engines still flying is NASA's TU144.
I don't think the problem with dirigibles is how to power them. I think the problem i
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And steam engines.
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Wrong. An airship with a decent tailwind can use virtually zero fuel except that required to reach a given height and adjustment thrusters. An airships fuel efficiency is completely unrelated to that of fixed or rotor wing aircraft. In fact even without a tailwing all an airship with neutral buoancy has to do is fight air resistance , unlike other aircraft which ultimately expend fuel to stay up in the air as well as
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time to educate the masses again... (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like someone failed basic understanding-of-how-things-work class.
Oh I agree, definitely.
Re:time to educate the masses again... (Score:4, Informative)
Sounds like someone failed basic understanding-of-how-things-work class.
Oh I agree, definitely.
Somebody failed looking at pictures class. The combustion chamber in a jet engine is quite definitely in the middle of the engine. Combustion takes place inside the engine, between the compressor and the turbine.
Not all ICEs have pistons, nor are all piston engines ICEs.
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You fail it.
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Your analogy is faulty; if you indeed look at "the nice picture" in the article you linked, you'll notice that the combustion actually takes place in the combustion chamber, between the compressor and turbine stages; the exhaust stream is produced as a result of this combustion. Furthermore, the article you linked to was for a turbojet engine, which is nothing but a sub-class of the jet engine.
A jet engine [wikipedia.org] does not specify that the energy source must be an internal combustion engine [wikipedia.org]; it only specifies tha
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rj
More kinetic energy is bad (Score:2)
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I believe that's what they said about the automobile 100 years ago.
Re:More kinetic energy is bad (Score:4, Insightful)
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Considering that 3000 people die per day from car accidents around the world, what we have is a disaster of the proportion of september 11, done daily.
Generally speaking, most countries seek to blame the individual driver. Most airlines seek to fix the system. And when you look at what they have had to do to make planes safe, its pretty clear that few of us really have a right to lift a few tons of metal into the air ove
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Well the thing is that "swift personal transportation" as embodied by current automobiles really isn't much of a "public good" in many cases. Automobiles are well suited to sparsely populated rural environments, and very poorly suited to densely populated urban ones. The fact that they nonetheless are the standard transportation method in many large US cities is largely due to lack of fore
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Before you make too many assumptions about me, let me reflect this back on you:
Do you think that the mass good of air travel justifies the occasional deaths of 3000 people when a few planes fly into buildings?
If that isn't acceptable, then why should this occuring on a daily b
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Yes.. in fact, I think it takes a lot more than 3000 deaths to justify the insanity that we have to go through whenever we want to fly. I think the grand total number of deaths due to flying is woefully inadequate to justify the massive concern for "safety" that the airlines are required to exhibit. I think that flying would be more routine and a hell of a lot cheaper if it was more dangerous and people would willingly pay for such a service if only their governments would butt out.
Well, at least you are co
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Making emotional arguments like that really doesn't befriend you to a geek audience.
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Of course, if everyone was flying around up there, there would b
well, you are wrong (Score:2)
Course Content
Core modules are:
Basic Aeronautical knowledge
PPL Ground Training 1 GFPT
PPL Ground Training 2
40 hours of flight training
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You would be bitterly opposed to this, which would be fast, economical, safe and fun? You must really hate human beings.
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Given the relation p = m v, you do the math on that, and couple it with the fact that no non-military building I know of is built to withstand impacts from above. Anyone in a home or apartment that's hit by a falling, fast-moving aircraft is dead meat.
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Reliability? (Score:5, Interesting)
Turboprop engines are a good middle ground for mid-sized planes starting at the 12-seat size or so, but are very expensive for the smallest aircraft. (2 and 4 seaters)
Electric motors, other the other hand, can be incredibly reliable. If designed for it, they have just a single moving part, and can run continuously, 24x7x365 for many years without issues. This kind of reliability in a small plane would be just incredible!
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Just as with cars, power density is the sticking point. And even more than cars, weight is an issue. Taking the standard Cessna 172:
Fuel capacity of 42 USG.
Range 790 miles.
Assuming the gas and electric engines weigh the same, and assuming 6lb per gal for Avgas....can we build a battery pack good enough for 790 mile range, with NO loss of power over that range, that weighs 250lbs?
(The Prius battery pack weighs about 1/2 that - 45kg))
Re:Reliability? (Score:4, Interesting)
No, but that may be why they're looking at fuel cells which have different performance characteristics than battery packs.
My guess is that they really want to use it for military/police UAVs where getting rid of the noise from a combustion engine will seriously improve stealth operation modes. Smaller surveillance-oriented versions could perhaps be dropped from a mother ship and have smaller range requirements than you indicate.
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Feel free to cross check what I'm saying at this website [risingup.com].
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The Wankel engines are much smaller and lighter for the same horsepower than piston engines. Their drawback for automobiles is similar to turbines - they don't like low RPMS (the rotor seals leak at l
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Electric motors still need to get their power from somewhere batteries arn't that good for storing large amounts of energy nor are fuel cells that good in the 10-100's kW range. You'd probably be better off with an internal combustion engine driving a g
Lack of innovation from companies (Score:2)
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Yeah, you're happy. But airplanes are too expensive to be available to the common man. Few people have the $18,000 to rebuild your 182, let alone the $325,000 to rebuild your King Air. Result? Your beloved 182 costs something like 5x the cost per hour to operate as an average car, and has a safety record that's considerably worse. Statistically, single-engine piston planes are somewhe
Bah. (Score:5, Funny)
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Don't cross the road if you can't get out of the kitchen. And remember - a penny saved is worth two in the bush.
Blimps could be quiet (Score:2)
So, engine noise and laminar flow ducted fans? However you do it, flight needs a lot of power and it's going to get all that power to be smooth and quiet.
Use a compressor (Score:2)
Pump the helium (or hydrogen - that wasn't what started the fire on the Hindenber, although it certainly made it worse once it ignited) into tanks to descend. Release it into the gas bag to ascend. Pump it all into your tanks and fold up your envelope to park. Submarines do something like this with air.
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Ultralights (Score:4, Interesting)
I am a hang glider pilot, and I would love to have a small engine for it. There are several manufacturers [doodlebugnorthwest.com] who make small engines [swedishaerosport.se] for them, they are loud, stinky, gasoline engines. Most of them only hold 1-2 gallons of fuel, which is plenty for this type of flight. Wouldn't a fuel-cell engine do the trick?
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An awful lot of that noise is the prop, not the actual engine.
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-Yes, the fuel cell takes in hyrodgen and outputs electricity, which runs an electric motor.
Would it be quieter than a gasoline engine? More reliable?
Yes, and yes. Electric engines are virtually silent, and have far less moving parts than internal combustion engines.
Would there be any odor?
No, the only output from a fuel cell is water vapour.
If so, they would be ideal for ultralights:
Maybe! Your main problem here is fuel density. On the one hand,
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Moller (Score:2)
It's not the engines which are noisy (Score:5, Insightful)
See: Overclocked PCs, Helicopters, Jet Engine, extractor fan, air conditioner, Vacuum cleaner...
It wouldn't matter if Moller's thing had fuel cells - it would just as noisy.
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Re:It's not the engines which are noisy (Score:4, Insightful)
You can get cute and use TMD (Tip Magnetic Drive) fan blades, which have no ends (its thought that tip vortex at the end of fan blades is responsible for much of the noise associated with fans and blades) and you could spend millions designing the most efficient blades possible.
Hell, you could even bet that in a few years the next generation of memetic polyalloys (T1000 et al) or "memory metals" will even allow the actual blades to change shape depending on their rotational speed, thus reducing noise still further.
But the fact remains, on a 2000 KG car, you need at least 2000 KG of vertical thrust to keep it in the air, and 2000 KG of thrust is a LOT. Are you seriously suggesting that fan blades can be made as quiet as say - a 5-litre V8 car at 6000 rpms? No way. Not gonna happen. Not ever.
Unless some way can be made to shift large amounts of air, efficiently, with no blades at all, then the Moller thing will never be anything more than a fucking dangerous, extremely noisy experimental demonstrator.
I'm still hanging out for effective anti-gravity. After all, it's such a weak force, that 2 AA batteries should be powerful enough to keep your car airborn for a year or so. Then all you need is some way to move it about, and you only need one engine for that - so it'd be much quieter.
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That's 20,000kN just to keep it in the air. You need more than that to get it into the air in the first place. You also need a decent amount of thrust to be able to go anywhere, possibly make that thrust vectored so you can use it to either climb or move in the horizontal plain.
There is also the problem that if you lose your lift thrust you are likely to crash. A parac
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Electric Aircraft (Score:3, Interesting)
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Another Lightning Rod..... (Score:2, Funny)
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A pity Boeing can't build an aircraft that runs on hot air
Energy density is getting there. (Score:3, Interesting)
Battery energy density is finally getting good enough for this sort of thing. Electric cars with real performance are at last possible, although the trunk full of laptop batteries still costs too much.
For aircraft, the price point is higher, so this could work. There are lots of little electric-powered unmanned aircraft around, from toys to small military recon units. An outfit called Aviation Tomorrow [archive.org] was making noise about an electric-powered kitplane back in 2002-2005. They got to the point where they'd announced the first flight test in 2005, then disappeared. What seems to have gone wrong is that they originally planned a battery powered plane, which would have worked, then switched to hydrogen and Ballard fuel cells, which didn't.
The embarrassing fact about the fuel cell industry is that almost nobody is shipping a usable product. It's still all prototypes. Five years ago, Ballard was about to launch a commercial product with Coleman, but they couldn't make it work well, and Coleman backed out. APC supposedly sells a fuel cell product for server backup power, but it doesn't really seem to be installed in any quantity. (For one thing, it requires chilled water for cooling, which is a real problem if you need power to chill the water.)
Slight translation needed for the slow (Score:2)
That means "weapons", folks.
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Nuclear power for large Aircraft (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_aircraft [wikipedia.org]
The new AirBus A380 and similar craft (maybe even the old 747) could easily have a small nuclear reactor onboard.
Of course I'm talking purely technical. The politics of flying nuclear powered aircraft over populated areas I'm sure would be
Boeing SOFC APU (Score:2)
Sport Aviation or Kitplanes (Score:2)
One of the biggest advantages of the ICE is that a large portion of the combustion inputs is not carried by the airplane. The necessary oxygen surrounds the craft, and is pul
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Have you ever noticed that you never see David Copperfield in the same place as the creator of the Moller Skycar?
The guy is either one of the most deluded inventors, financially incompetent, or a huckster. Or, all of the above.
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It'd be good to know what kind of power delivery
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I guess weight is the major obstacle at the moment.
It is. Current (pardon the pun) PEM fuel cell technology typically uses platinum, AFAIK. Stacks are heavy. The Ballard Mark 1030 [ballard.com] provides about 78 Watts per liter of unit volume and 66 Watts per kilogram. The Ballard Mark 902 [ballard.com], which is used in several fuel cell cars and buses, is much more powerful at 1133 Watts per liter of unit volume and 885 Watts per kilogram, but it's heavy (96 kilos, over 211 pounds). Note that neither of these devices weights
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We'll have flying cars. People just wont be allowed to control them themselves, except for maybe an emergency landing mode.
As a bonus, we could call the central control system 'Skynet'