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eBay Seller Sues Autodesk for $10 Million 318

Miasik.Net writes "A lawsuit has been filed in Federal Court (US District Court for the Western Washington District C07-1189 JLR) that alleges Autodesk, Inc maker of the industry standard AutoCAD software and their attorney Andrew S. Mackay have devised an illegal scheme to have used copies of their software removed from the eBay site using the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Finally someone decided that non-transferable licenses must be stopped." While proving $10 million in damages might prove difficult, the reasoning behind the case is pretty sound.
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eBay Seller Sues Autodesk for $10 Million

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  • The attorney is either an idiot and didn't know this was illegal, or it's simply not illegal. Sure, unethical, maybe I could see that. But I don't understand why eBay is obligated by law to have auctions on their site which they don't want -- no matter what the reason they don't want the auctions. And.. 10 million bucks? Good luck.
    • by allthingscode ( 642676 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:22PM (#20598431)
      The suit isn't against eBay. No, eBay isn't required to carry anything they don't want to, but Autodesk is requiring them to pull the software because of a license requirement that is probably illegal.
    • by WgT2 ( 591074 )

      10 million bucks? Good luck.
      This is the way of lawyers (and unions): ask for way more than you really want (or even possibly need).
      • by Talez ( 468021 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @01:57AM (#20600149)
        They'll be asking for 10 million in punitive damages [wikipedia.org].

        God I'm just an armchair idiot and I can see the logic in it. If they sue for $4K or even $10K for being pains in the asses then Autodesk will just write it off as a business expense, change the EULA and give it another shot. On the other hand if they get bit on the ass with a $10 million judgement they'll think twice before pulling a stupid stunt like that again.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by hedwards ( 940851 )

      The law passed in 1998 was designed to give intellectual property rights owners a way to have content removed from the internet that violates copyright law.

      I kind of liked the appropriateness of this miswritten sentence. Considering that the intent of the law is the first quote and not the second, I think that its safe to assume the real idiot is the person suing. I think they meant this:

      The law passed in 1998 was designed to give intellectual property rights owners a way to have content that violates copyright law removed from the internet.

      Seems like somebody could use an editor.

    • by caitsith01 ( 606117 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @12:22AM (#20599693) Journal
      I love how everyone here is a freaking legal expert. People make the most sweeping judgments about complex legal issues based on a pejorative three sentence summary.

      For example, from the main post:

      While proving $10 million in damages might prove difficult, the reasoning behind the case is pretty sound

      Hmm, yes. And the legal basis as to why the reasoning is 'sound' is...?

      I'm not saying this is a baseless suit. But it's funny how everyone around here (99% computer/tech geeks of some flavour or other) is able to deduce why it's 'plainly' legally correct or incorrect to do whatever suits the common agenda here (free IP good; big companies bad; little guy good; etc etc etc).

      IAAL. Newsflash: legal work is hard. Lawyers get paid a lot partly because legal issues are often very complex and challenging. You cannot determine whether something is 'sound' or not based on 4 minutes of absent-minded evaluation.
      • by Curunir_wolf ( 588405 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @07:37AM (#20601855) Homepage Journal
        I love how everyone at the law office is a computer expert. People make the most sweeping judgments about complex software issues based on a pejorative three sentence description.

        For example, from a recent incident at a law office:

        They wrote it as a 10-user application, but adding another 500 seems workable

        Hmm, yes. And the technical basis as to why expecting 50-fold scalability is 'workable' is...?

        I'm not saying this is a baseless assumption. But it's funny how everyone around the law office (99% lawyers of some flavour or other) is able to deduce why it's 'plainly' technically correct or incorrect to throw whatever combination of the cheapest hardware and software available into the office and assume everything is going to do exactly what they want.

        IAASE. Newsflash: systems development work is hard. Software Engineers get paid a lot partly because technical issues are often very complex and challenging. You cannot determine whether something is 'workable' or not based on 4 minutes of absent-minded evaluation.

        Lawyers tend to be very difficult to work with. They tell everyone to be sure to hire a "professional" for every little legal matter under the sun, feel it's perfectly OK to charge exorbitant fees for every little thing, but think *never* need any help with their computer systems. When they do finally decide to seek advice, they hmmm and haw and ask stupid question after stupid question and then complain when they're told it's going to cost more than 50 bucks to fix everything.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Hatta ( 162192 )
        He didn't say legally sound. The reasoning behind this case is sound, anyone can see that instantly. We all have a sense of right and wrong. If the legal system differs from that by too much, it's broken.
      • by sjames ( 1099 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @08:41AM (#20602395) Homepage Journal

        I see your point, but keep in mind that the law belongs to the people If it cannot be understood by a person of reasonable intelligence then it is intrinsically wrong.

        As to why it sounds reasonable, see first sale doctrine [wikipedia.org]. The case law and legal opinions on the applicability to software are conflicting. Some (such as Autodesk) claim that they licenced a particular user to use the product. Others say that since it looks like a sale and acts like a sale, it IS a sale in spite of an after the fact EULA to the contrary.

        To me personally, it looks like software vendors want to not only have things both ways but all ways. When I want to copy the media for legitimate archival purposes they want treat it like a sale of a particular CDROM. When I want to resell it, they want to call it a license to a particular person. When I want to move it to a new computer, or use it on more than one computer (but only one at a time) they want to tie the licence to a particular machine. That is, until I want to sell the computer and all of the software on it.

        It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, and it swims like a duck. The software vendors would have me believe it's a zebra. Unless, of course, it is convieniant for me that it's a zebra, in that case they say it's a blue footed booby. Could it be that the software vendors are weasels?

  • by Harmonious Botch ( 921977 ) * on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:24PM (#20597983) Homepage Journal
    From TFA:

    Autodesk's attorney Andrew S. Mackay is currently under investigation (# 07-24456) by the California State Bar Association for his actions in this matter.
    Strictly speaking, that sentence is true. But here in California, all complaints about a lawyer are investigated. There is no screening process. So you can alledge that a lawyer has kidnapped Elvis and locked him up in his basement along with a bunch of alien corpses stolen from Roswell and the bar association will open an investigation.

    A far more relevant statement would have been:

    The plantiff has filed a complaint about Mackay with the California State Bar Association for his actions in this matter. The merits of the complaint are unknown.


    Furthermore, the plantiff lacks standing. In the state of California, to sue for fraud, party A must alledge that party B defrauded party A. If A claims that the money comes from C, then he has no standing to sue, even if his statements are correct.

    • by debrain ( 29228 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:06PM (#20598295) Journal

      Furthermore, the plantiff lacks standing. In the state of California, to sue for fraud, party A must alledge that party B defrauded party A. If A claims that the money comes from C, then he has no standing to sue, even if his statements are correct.
      Vis-à-vis jus tertii [wikipedia.org] ?
    • by spacefrog ( 313816 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:14PM (#20598367)

      In the state of California
      This is a federal suit. From TFA:

      A lawsuit has been filed in Federal Court (US District Court for the Western Washington District C07-1189 JLR)
      • This is a federal suit.

        Ethical matters are usually handled by the state bar in which the federal court sits, or by the state bar in which the attorney in question works in. Federal courts apply state laws and perhaps even their own when decided if an ethical violation exists. However, the actual punishment of an attorney is by the state bar. The most a federal court could do is to kick the guy out of practicing in front of federal courts.

        States want to regulate their lawyers. Otherwise, attorneys would just
    • So you can alledge that a lawyer has kidnapped Elvis and locked him up in his basement along with a bunch of alien corpses stolen from Roswell and the bar association will open an investigation.

      And just when I thought that every type of slashfic possible has been written on the internet, you come up with a new one!
  • by davetd02 ( 212006 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:25PM (#20597989)
    1) Buy software from eBay
    2) Copy onto hard drive
    3) Re-sell on eBay
    4) Profit!

    Easy enough for me!
    • Re:Fixed! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Orthuberra ( 1145497 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:34PM (#20598049)
      Fixed that for you!

      1) Buy software from eBay
      2) ???
      3) Re-sell on eBay
      4) Profit!
    • by langelgjm ( 860756 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:48PM (#20598135) Journal

      Interesting how similar this story is to this one [slashdot.org], from a while back, about restricting the sale of used CDs. In both cases you have the manufacturer wanting to restrict the first sale doctrine's rights in order to sell more of their product.

      Actually, now that I think about it, I use some high-priced manufacturing software that, IIRC, states much the same thing: you don't own the software (nor the hardware dongle required to run it); it is all property of the manufacturer. There was even a clause in there about selling used software - they stated that you were allowed to do it, but it had to be for a specified amount, and they got a fee out of it. It all sounds fairly bogus to me.

      • by jmorris42 ( 1458 ) * <jmorris@[ ]u.org ['bea' in gap]> on Thursday September 13, 2007 @10:38PM (#20598987)
        > There was even a clause in there about selling used software - they stated that you were allowed to do it,
        > but it had to be for a specified amount, and they got a fee out of it.

        Not really, sound pretty fair. You see, you ARE allowed to resell software and AutoDesk is going to get smacked in court but support and upgrades aren't part of the First Sale Doctrine. By your vendor specifying a procedure and fee to transfer ownership of the license along with the title to the copyrighted work it means the buyer gets upgrades, bug fixes and the same level of tech suport you have now. If the fee is reasonable it would be very fair, especially when dealing with specialized software that needs support.
      • by JVert ( 578547 ) <corganbilly@ho t m a i l . c om> on Thursday September 13, 2007 @11:03PM (#20599167) Journal
        Reminds me of when I called Nevada DMV and asked if this rumor was true that there was no tax on used vehicles. They plainly said, "we already collected tax on that car when it was first sold, why would we need it again?".

        Aww fuck I though, I should have left California a long time ago.
    • Uh.. You won't make profit there unless you can sell it for more than you paid.
      If you want an illegal copy so badly, just download it. Or did I miss the point?
      • From a strict monetary perspective, you do not make any profit. However, from a broader economic perspective, you have a significant net gain, because you keep the money and the software. This qualifies as "profit."
        • But that is clearly illegal. This guy was selling used copies, not making more copies.
          Your business model boils down to 'make illegal copy of software', which is much easier via thepiratebay.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      If I am not mistaken, AutoCAD is one of those softwares that requires a dongle to use... at least at some point it did. I remember the nightmare of admining a few workstations where we had to keep such things in check. Had a dongle not work anymore. That was a real treat.
      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by deniable ( 76198 )
        They stopped using dongles during R14 which was about 1998. R14 needed a dongle as well as a code from AutoDesk. They went to pure software licensing on R15 (Acad 2000.)

        A lot of places liked the dongles because license management was easy. They got passed around when needed.

        Funny side story, one of our offices got burgled. They unplugged all of the connectors from the back of the machine including an AutoCAD dongle. They took the box and a 40 kg monitor but left the most expensive item on the desk.
  • by jd ( 1658 ) <imipakNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:31PM (#20598023) Homepage Journal
    ...lawyers bother taking on lawsuits under $10 million these days - they can't make enough money on the small claims.
    • lawyers bother taking on lawsuits under $10 million these days - they can't make enough money

      It's sad that justice is only available to people with millions of dollars to burn. Autodesk is sure to run the costs of this trial into multiples of that amount and burn years of many people's career that could be spent doing useful things. You and I pay for all of that waste whenever we do business with a firm that has paid for drafting that uses Autodesk - that is every day.

      I could rant on about how Autodes

  • The question (Score:5, Interesting)

    by DTemp ( 1086779 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:31PM (#20598029)
    Which is it:

    1) Does the seller have the "burden of proof" to prove that he uninstalled his copy and is not violating his license or

    2) Is the seller to be given the "benefit of the doubt" and assumed to have uninstalled his copy, unless information is found to indicate otherwise?

    note: I am probably using legal terms like "burden of proof" incorrectly. but you get my question.
    • Re:The question (Score:5, Insightful)

      by sodul ( 833177 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:41PM (#20598087) Homepage

      1) Does the seller have the "burden of proof" to prove that he uninstalled his copy and is not violating his license or

      Guilty until proven innocent?

      2) Is the seller to be given the "benefit of the doubt" and assumed to have uninstalled his copy, unless information is found to indicate otherwise?

      Innocent until proven guilty.

      So which one is applied by the modern court system?

      • Re:The question (Score:4, Informative)

        by WaltBusterkeys ( 1156557 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:51PM (#20598175)
        So which one is applied by the modern court system? In criminal law one is innocent until proven guilty. In civil law (like this), the scales are even with just a feather on the side of "not liable" (since one can only really be "innocent" of a crime).
      • So which one is applied by the modern court system?

        That, unfortunately, depends on where you live.

      • 1) Does the seller have the "burden of proof" to prove that he uninstalled his copy and is not violating his license or

        Guilty until proven innocent?

        2) Is the seller to be given the "benefit of the doubt" and assumed to have uninstalled his copy, unless information is found to indicate otherwise?

        Innocent until proven guilty.

        So which one is applied by the modern court system?

        Ummm... "Guilty until proven innocent?" ;-)

      • Back in the day ... if one company wanted to sell/give/transfer a license to another company, they had to send a letter to Novell on company letterhead stating which company was transferring which licenses to which company along with contact names, phone numbers and addresses.

        It worked for me. When I started the job I'm at now I checked their licenses with Novell and found they had a license that was not registered to them. So I ordered them a replacement.

        Now, this only works if the software company trusts
      • "Guilty until proven innocent?, Innocent until proven guilty.
        So which one is applied by the modern court system?"

        None of them. The rule currently in force is "The one with
        the most money is right".
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Oriumpor ( 446718 )
        Depends on the court, in the states:

        Criminal: #2

        Civil: #1 is closer than #2 but only by 2 percentage points.

        In most civil trials the plaintiff only has to prove a preponderance of evidence. [wikipedia.org] Which (kind of) equates to about 51% or greater possibility of the argument being true.

        IANAL etc...
    • I don't know about AutoCAD (though I'm sure someone here does), but most expensive industrial/engineering design software comes with a hardware dongle that is required to run it, so it's not really an issue.
      • I know I've run a program that's run needed one of thos dongles, but I don't think it was AutoCAD. I know for sure the copy I have installed now (Mechanical 2007) doesn't need it, but it's a free student version. I think the extreme security steps are usually with analytic packages (e.g. FEA packages). AutoCAD is just drafting and their parametric modelling packages (Inventor) suck. Oh, and they stopped selling Mechanical Desktop standalone to get people to buy Inventor. Stupid move...
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by tftp ( 111690 )
        I use AutoCAD and it does not require a dongle. It locks the installation to the hardware id of the computer, which is a complex sum of various serial numbers that the computer has (the AutoCAD software itself, then the m/board, the BIOS, the CPU, the MAC address etc.) - just like Windows itself does.

        However the software requires registration with Autodesk once installed, and that serial number is sent to the registration server. The server has the opportunity to decline the registration if a given copy o

    • Neither. The licensee of the software (you didn't think you BUY software, did you?) normally has no right to transfer the license to a third party. There is no right of first sale for something you didn't buy.
      • Re:The question (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Bacon Bits ( 926911 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @11:02PM (#20599155)
        Yes, you did. You bought a license and a physical copy of the software. You do not own the software, but the license and the media are completely yours. They are property that you can transfer using First Sale Doctrine.

        This is very similar to selling your used music CDs and movie DVDs. You don't own the contents, but you own the media.
  • by Joe The Dragon ( 967727 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:38PM (#20598065)
    IT's about time that some stands up for the First-sale doctrine. Now we need to get the right to move windows from system to system or owner to owner.
    • You know, that's a battle of Windows' addon software too.

      I think one of the main features of Norton Ghost that keeps it selling to IT departments is that it can copy Windows so that it will run on (slightly different) hardware. Windows has a copy protection feature that ties an installation to a specific hard drive adapter. Ghost overwrites that info with the info of the machine that restores the backup.

      Now this means that you can't restore from backup on one machine and then plug that drive into another
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        It's not a copy protection feature and you can get to work on other adapters that are just about the same also there is tool out there that will try to reset it.

        Vista is better with this and can fall back to generic driver to try to boot up.

        And ghost was build to help you with roll out of alot of the same or (slightly different) hardware or for a easy restore and even then you may need to do a reboot or 2 for it to fully pick up the hardware.

        When you have bigger changes that you need a new image just for th
      • by Kalriath ( 849904 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @10:11PM (#20598797)

        Similar problem with virtual machines. Running a virtual machine, you CAN just move an installation of Windows from hardware to hardware.

        Microsoft's solution? Vista won't run under virtualization.
        FUD. Runs fine (though probably a tad slowly, but just turn Aero the fuck off and you'll be right) under virtualisation. And the license only says that you can't use the same license you used for the host in guest machines unless it's Ultimate or Enterprise edition.

        There's plenty of real things about Vista to bitch about, so stop making shit up.
      • Wait... that was intentional? I thought that was a design flaw in Window's driver model. You are saying it's not a bug, it's a feature? (I recently bought a new computer and kept my Windows XP install... wasn't easy.)
      • by jasen666 ( 88727 )
        I'm running Vista just fine under VMWare.
        They only changed the EULA, if anything.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:42PM (#20598091)
    I had an auction of mine canceled by Motorola. I was selling some radio cryptography devices that are not classified or secret in any way (they are used by security companies, etc.)

    Motorola had their legal dogs tell eBay to cancel my auctions because they violated their "VeRO" program policies. The "VeRO" program is for people violating someone's IP rights or the DMCA. They would have a legitimate claim if I was selling knockoff items or bootleg copies of their software which is what the program is for, so the manufacturers or IP holders can ask eBay to take down their auctions.

    Well, the asshats at Motorola are sour on the fact that their stuff is getting sold for cheap on the 'bay, so they are using the IP/DMCA shit as a front to have the eBay folks try to kill the after-market. When I investigated why they did this, of course they quoted to me all kinds of "law enforcement only" bullshit, and even invoked the "T" word (yes, TERRORIST!!) - total bullshit! Naturally, not wanting to get hauled away and locked up in some foreign jail or GitMo, I didn't make waves about them canning the auction, but I really thought that sucked extra hard, hiding behind false claims of IP to prevent an after-market sale.

    Posting anonymously for obvious reasons...
    • You can literally find HUNDREDS of stories of upset people who tried to list auctions on eBay for Microsoft operating system or application software they *never opened*, but MS had their lawyers demand a takedown from eBay based on the "VeRO" program.

      (They argue that end-users are illegally trying to resell OEM software products that weren't intended for resale, etc. etc. But no matter how they'd like to spin it, it seems to me if you received a copy of an OS or Microsoft Office product with your new PC p
  • by RobertM1968 ( 951074 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:44PM (#20598099) Homepage Journal

    While proving $10 million in damages might prove difficult, the reasoning behind the case is pretty sound

    I see nothing wrong with the $10 million figure. Companies have used the DMCA to try to recover "damages" of ridiculous proportion in the past (RIAA as our most favorite). Why shouldn't the DMCA work for consumers in the same fashion? In which case, the $10 million figure seems just as "reasonable"

    I hope the guy wins all $10 million... perhaps the companies who lobbied for the ridiculous penalties that got included in the DMCA will think the next time they lobby for such laws.

    • by p0tat03 ( 985078 )
      The MAFIAA claims ridiculous damages in their lawsuits, two wrongs don't make a right. If the courts decide that $10M is proper punishment AND compensation, then so be it, but if it's frivolous I'd hope they'd throw it out.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by asuffield ( 111848 )

      I see nothing wrong with the $10 million figure. Companies have used the DMCA to try to recover "damages" of ridiculous proportion in the past (RIAA as our most favorite). Why shouldn't the DMCA work for consumers in the same fashion? In which case, the $10 million figure seems just as "reasonable"

      It's kind of a problem with the way these things are reported in the media. What happens is, the law gives limits on the penalty that can be applied to any unlawful action, and it is the responsibility of the plai

  • by Nymz ( 905908 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:46PM (#20598119) Journal
    By reading this post you are agreeing that any posts you make are property of CowboyNeal, along with any devices used in manufacture and transfer of said posts. This includes your keyboard, computer, and that whole series of tubes called the internet.

    I apologize that this EULA isn't 50 pages long, and can be understood by a human being, but I'm not a real lawyer.
  • I've been involved with software licenses that restrict transfer of the license; most often it's allowed, but the purchaser has to pay a fee, usually one that makes the transfer cost more than an original purchase. It seems that breach of contract would be more appropriate here, but Autodesk has always been a nasty company to deal with.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by butlerm ( 3112 )
      I imagine they invoked the DMCA because a superficial reading of the pertinent provisions would lead one to believe that DMCA take down notices are applicable to this kind of activity.

      Unfortunately for Autodesk, that is pretty clearly not the case. The DMCA is about copyright infringement, not breach of contract, shrinkwrap or otherwise. In addition, Section 512 take down notices only apply to online material accessible through a service provider. No one's copyrights were being infringed here and the copy
  • by Overzeetop ( 214511 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @08:51PM (#20598171) Journal
    I've always thought this was a bit fishy...if I call and ask for an AD product, the vendor takes my CC# and sends me a box. Why should I be prohibited from reselling it if I don't want it. Hell, even if I install it and then switch to Bentley, why can't I then sell my unused SW? Supposedly, the only way to sell your license in AD's good graces is to sell your entire business (or your immortal soul, if you personally registered it, I suppose).

    Now, AutoCAD does have the potential seller by the short hairs, since they can deny any future upgrade pricing, but since I know lots of shops who upgrade every 4-5 years, and AD phases out any upgrade discount by then (you can pay $800/yr for maintenance, or $800 x n years since your last version to upgrade; sweet, huh?).

    I just know that at this point, I've got a $4000 piece of software in which I only use $800 worth of functionality. How do I know? Because the rest of my licenses are ACAD LT, and they work just as well for what we do as the Architecture.
    • Supposedly, the only way to sell your license in AD's good graces is to sell your entire business

      This may become key in this argument. Can a business count the value of software towards the total value of the company when filing to go public? I'm asking cause I don't actually know. I would guess that they can, but the ruling of this case for AD may change that because that software will become ownerless if the business closes up shop and it is non-transferable.

      Also if a company buys another that would me
      • Can a business count the value of software towards the total value of the company when filing to go public?

        Yes. You usually measure assets at book value on your balance sheet (exception being stocks which are at LCM -> lower of cost or market ).

        Although one could argue it's an expense because it's a sunk cost, it's still an asset that you are using despite the fact that your license prohibits you from reselling it.

        So if you pay $1000 for a product, you amortize it over the life of the product - if you're going to get four years value out of it, you expense it across four years through amortization or deprec

        • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

          by OrangeTide ( 124937 )
          You count it as an asset because you don't have to buy the software again to continue operating your business, at least in the short term. There are other things that are assets that have no real value for liquidation.

          A 15ft metal sculpture of the company logo that takes up the entire lobby is an asset, but it's probably only worth the scrap metals. I'm sure you can think of other examples of things that are worth money on a balance sheet, but worth a fraction or even zero in reality.
  • I believe that if someone wants to sell their copy of whatever; music, movie, software, etc.; and they don't have backup copy somewhere the other person should inherit all of the rights and privileges associated that music, movie, software.
  • by ciscoguy01 ( 635963 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:09PM (#20598319)
    Software, especially expensive software is a valuable asset.

    I am constantly amazed that so many people put up with software companies wanting to sell you their software for lots of money and then you can't do anything with it when you don't want/need it anymore. What the heck are you supposed to do, buy an extra plot at the cemetary and when you die they'l bury it there next to you?

    Imagine if it were that way with your old dishwasher, or your car. "You can get a new car, but you have to keep the old one out back. You can't sell it, ever".

    Outrageous.

    When people put their foot down and demand ownership of expensive items, or else if you don't own it you should be paying dramatically less for it, this will all change. I'd offer Autodesk $19 for their software, if I don't own it. It can't be worth much more than that. You don't own it, remember?

    I heard a story about a company that was bought out by another company, and one of their software providers wanted them to buy the software again. Same desks, chairs, computers, people, building, and software. But the software, that couldn't be "sold".

    Outrageous. Any expensive asset should be just that, an asset.
    • by ZoneGray ( 168419 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:31PM (#20598501) Homepage
      Well, I'm suspicious of the idea of treating intellectual property the same way you'd treat physical property. That sort of thinking is behind most of the problems with IP law.

      But instead of Congress trying to sell consumers on schemes like net neutrality, perhaps they could pass a few laws that would, y'know, actually make the marketplace work a little better:

      1 - If you can subscribe to something over the Internet, you have have to be able to cancel over the Internet. We'll call it the "Able tO canceL" act, or AOL act for short.

      2 - Make software vendors print the license agreement on the outside of the box, or make it available on the web site as BEFORE purchase.

      3 - Better yet, publish a few "standard" commercial licenses with various terms, and allow vendors to just specify, say, "US Type 7 Consumer License," so you wouldn't have to read each one. And vendors wouldn't have to hire a lawyer before they could sell something. Too good an idea to ever be enacted, unfortunately.
    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Imagine if it were that way with your old dishwasher, or your car. "You can get a new car, but you have to keep the old one out back. You can't sell it, ever".

      Material examples like that don't work for computer software and media. That's why most of the /. crowd gets in an uproar about the "You wouldn't steal a car, so why are you stealing movies" example that the MPAA likes to throw around. Software is not an object, and thus it has to be treated as a separate entity. Usually, when you buy a piece of softw
    • by deniable ( 76198 )
      Microsoft kept sending us stuff about 'Software Asset Management,' and how we should protect our software assets. I wanted to call them up and ask them if we could on-sell, rent or give away our software like any other asset.
  • by fliptout ( 9217 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:11PM (#20598351) Homepage
    I've been wondering where to find used recent versions of software. Anyone know of an auction site that caters to this niche? Maybe such a site needs to be created... Biz opportunity!
  • It's funny cause (Score:3, Interesting)

    by wamerocity ( 1106155 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:26PM (#20598455) Journal
    A friend of mine who I work with who has a legit version of AutoCAD, but he never installed it and downloads the cracked versions from P2P or Bittorrent (the ones that also doesn't require the dongle, even though he has a legit one.) While it seems obvious that many people won't pay for this software simply because it is very expensive, you can't help but think that practices like this, that don't allow you to resell you software that you don't use anymore, only contribute to people pirating software. I mean, what if he got it for a company he worked for and then the company tanked a few months later? It's a completely unrealistic expectation. Unfortunately, we have another program requiring dongle keys that is even more expensive that isn't widespread enough for hackers to worry about, so we have to bother calling the company every 6 months to get our extra keys reactivated, as well as being locked into the software, because it was too expensive to abandon, but the learning curve is too high on this type of designing software to switch to another without a major drop in productivity and a huge initial investment.
    • Orcad? I hate that goddamn dongle.
    • by deniable ( 76198 )
      There's at least one structural package that people prefer the cracked version of. The damn thing checks the dongle before every command so the cracked version runs a lot faster.
  • You can sue anyone for anything, but the amounts are totally meaningless.

    Anyhoo, the plaintiff's home state Sale of Goods Act is what matters.
  • Can anyone point me to any Creditable Standards body National and Industry that requires the use of an Autodesk product?

    Maybe along with references to Mircosoft "Industry Heavyweight" would be a better phrase.
    • by deniable ( 76198 )
      Try the mining industry on Australia's east coast. The west coast is all Microstation. These are all contract requirements from the client. Industry standard means it's standard across the industry, not that a standards body has anointed it. AS1100 may have had some AutoCAD specific references but it's been many years since I've had to look.
  • A few years ago, we bought several copies of Combustion. Because of some project reshuffling, we wound up with an extra one, so we put it up on eBay. It was a completely legitimate sale, never installed, with the seals on the software completely intact.

    It was taken down within 24 hours.

    It was a bummer, but I can also see how this issue can be a can of worms for a software company. We had a valid copy, but how could we prove it to Autodesk without them personally inspecting the seals on the software? It'
  • Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:51PM (#20598647)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by TubeSteak ( 669689 )

      but you can buy a GENUINE designer handbag at Macy's, sell it on eBay, and the company will have your auction taken down despite your having every legal right to sell that GENUINE item.

      This has nothing to do with law, and nothing to do with the DMCA... its simply eBay policy, part of their VERO program.
      AFAIK, you don't have a right to sell anything on eBay...
      Genuine or not.

      Maybe that's why the guy in TFA is suing AutoDesk and not eBay.
  • Fuck AutoCAD Buy IntelliCAD
    .dwg file specifications: http://opendesign.com/ [opendesign.com]
    AutoCAD compatible software consortium: http://www.intellicad.org/ [intellicad.org]
    AutoCAD compatible CAD for MS Windows and Linux: http://www.bricsys.com/download/downloadForm.jsp?product=BCAD [bricsys.com]
    • by deniable ( 76198 )
      IntelliCAD was made by Visio. When Microsoft bought Visio, IntelliCAD disappeared. This was around the time Autodesk dropped support for other OSs and embraced Microsoft platforms.
  • by brxndxn ( 461473 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @09:59PM (#20598695)
    Before everyone and their mother found out about the Internet, Ebay was soo awesome.. You could buy pot, a gun, and a kidney.. And you could give feedback to whoever you wanted whether or not they even made a sale with you.. You had maybe a 50% chance of actually getting what you paid for.. but then again, you had about 50% chance of actually attempting to pay them.

    The Internet used to be a frontier, man.. Now I gotta grow my pot.

  • by Anonymous Coward
    In the real world, outside of software, there are plenty of non-transferable licenses. Buy a "lifetime" membership at your local gym, and then try selling it someone else - it isn't allowed since it is stated in the contract at the time of sale. Same thing with Autodesk's software. If someone doesn't like Autodesk's licensing terms they are free not to buy Autodesk software.

  • Autodesk became as big as it is because for many years they turned a blind eye to people copying their software. More "unofficial" users playing with AutoCAD meant more marketshare later because CAD tends to be fairly complicated to learn and use effectively. Built-in familiarity with the interface and basic features also helped a lot - "I can draw stuff with AutoCAD, therefore I am a draftsman"-type qualifications.

    Some people simply do not need to upgrade to or buy the latest, greatest version of softwar
  • The engineering firm I work for used to shell out $1500-ish canadian each for licenses of the craptabulous AutoCAD Light ... for use by our engineers who just need to view files and do very simple things, while our geomatics department does the heavy lifting with for AutoCAD and Civil3D (and several other modelling and GIS softwares).

    AutoCAD Light is USELESS. It is a pathetic joke that gives you so little functionality as to be a total waste of money. Our Engineers constantly came across simple things that
  • by solios ( 53048 ) on Thursday September 13, 2007 @11:54PM (#20599515) Homepage
    An ex coworker of mien made a HUGE stink when he read the 3dsMAX (also an Autodesk product) EULA, noticing that the EULA allowed the user to use that license of max on not just THAT MACHINE but THAT MACHINE CONFIGURATION. Technically, according to the EULA, of you so much as upgraded the video card it was a new box and as such warranted a new licesne.

    In professional circles, Autodesk is Big F*cking Money. Meaning you pay to play, or you don't play, at all. They're vastly worse than Adobe in that respect, though Adobe is definitely taking cues.

    In the context of the license as my coworker understood it, you were "licensed" for one seat on defined hardware. In MY opinion, if you sell that hardware (and the software), you sell that license with it. Since Autodesk - on paper- won't f*cking LET YOU transfer that license to new hardware - even if it's the same box with a new vidcard - WHY are they shitting on licensed users for selling off kit with a software license they can't - technically, legally - transfer?

    Forget google, forget Adobe, forget Microsoft - Autodesk is the real Software Evil.
  • Hope he wins... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Sooner Boomer ( 96864 ) <sooner.boomr@gma[ ]com ['il.' in gap]> on Friday September 14, 2007 @12:09AM (#20599615) Journal
    ...and wins big. The same thing happened to me. I tried to sell a legitimate, legal, uncopied, in-the-box copy of ACAD2000 and had the sale pulled by Ebay. Ebay threatened to pull my account if I ever tried listing AutoDesk software for sale again. I thought about auctioning a drafting pencil and giving away a copy of ACAD2000, but never did it.
  • by Qbertino ( 265505 ) <moiraNO@SPAMmodparlor.com> on Friday September 14, 2007 @07:33AM (#20601807)
    Autodesk sucks. That's a fact. For instance, the Autodesk Videoconverter is widely know as the buggiest software ever. Ever since they bought Alias I've been expecting Maya to go downhill. It isn't that they've really gained that much in tracktion since the takeover, which is a bad sign.

    If you need a good 3D programm and Blender doesn't offer enough industry compliance I recommend Lightwave. Affordable, an insane amount of features, an impressive feature production track record and a high profile industry standard throughout the world. AFAICT it has the most widespread use in the industry. LW does come with a dongle, but at least Newtek (LWs producer) doesn't act like a bunch of dickheads. I bought a used LW licence from a guy on Ebay and they transferred it without a hassle and even did a cheap upgrade for me allthough I wasn't entitled.

    Bottom line:
    Blender and then Lightwave for all things Blender doesn't handle well (or not at all). And stay away from Autodesk.
  • Legal Analysis (Score:3, Informative)

    by karmatic ( 776420 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @09:39AM (#20603079)
    This is a duplicate of my comment over there, since we can't very well expect /. readers to RTFA, can we?

    A user commented that "It was decided that the process of loading software from media into the computer's RAM constituted making a copy of the software, therefore a license is required in order to run the software."

    That was the original legal theory behind the EULA, however, that theory is fundamentally flawed, and no longer pertainent.

    http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#117 [copyright.gov]

    Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:

    (1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or

    (2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.


    In other words, buying the software (Adobe vs. Softman - if it walks like a sale, it is a sale). Quoting Adobe vs, Softman -

    It is well-settled that in determining whether a transaction is a sale, a lease, or a license, courts look to the economic realities of the exchange ...

    (quoting Microsoft vs DAK) "Because we look to the economic realities of the agreement, the fact that the agreement labels itself a "license" and calls the payments "royalties," both terms that arguably imply periodic payment for the use rather than sale of technology, does not control our analysis." ...

    The Court finds that the circumstances surrounding the transaction strongly suggests that the transaction is in fact a sale rather than a license. For example, the purchaser commonly obtains a single copy of the software, with documentation, for a single price, which the purchaser pays at the time of the transaction, and which constitutes the entire payment for the "license." The license runs for an indefinite term without provisions for renewal. In light of these indicia, many courts and commentators conclude that a "shrinkwrap license" transaction is a sale of goods rather than a license ...

    Raymond Nimmer, The Law of Computer Technology 1.18[1] p. 1-103 (1992). The Court agrees that a single payment for a perpetual transfer of possession is, in reality, a sale of personal proper and therefore transfers ownership of that property, the copy of the software.


    In other words, there's a good chance this case will be permitted to go forward - there's plenty of case law both sides can attempt to use.
  • by alejandronova ( 1156795 ) on Friday September 14, 2007 @10:36AM (#20603769)
    From my research, I've found interesting things. First of all, AUTODESK'S EULA IS NOWHERE TO BE FOUND. The Autodesk page, supposedly publishing the EULA, ended with an EULA located on a non-working server. The only thing close to an actual Autocad or Maya EULA I found is here: http://www.evanyares.com/licensing/2005/12/13/autocad-2006-eula.html [evanyares.com] (it's a SHAME that this is the only way I can read the EULA of a supposedly serious software company... Is the EULA a secret? How can you claim I agree with the EULA if I can't even read it?)

    Second, some terms are interesting.

    2.1 License Grant. Autodesk grants You a non-sublicensable, non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license to use copies of the Software in the jurisdiction in which you acquire the Software, in accordance with the applicable User Documentation, within the scope of the License Parameters. Autodesk's license grant is conditioned on Your continuous compliance with all license limitations and restrictions described in this Agreement. If You violate any of these limitations or restrictions, the license grant will automatically and immediately expire. The license descriptions in this Section 2 define the scope of rights that Autodesk grants to You. Any usage of the Software outside the scope of the applicable license grant constitutes an infringement of Autodesk's intellectual property rights as well as a material breach of this Agreement.

    What kind of contract is this? It's a licence, of course. And why are giving this licence to operate in a specific COUNTRY? (the jurisdiction in which you acquire the Software) Does it mean that, if I travel with a laptop loaded with a legal copy of Autocad 2006 (the license for Autocad 2008 isn't available) from Chile to the States, I have to pay another CLP$ 2.000.000 to keep my legal status?

    9.2. Choice of Law. This Agreement and any disputes arising out of or in connection with this Agreement shall be governed by California law without reference to conflict-of-laws principles and excluding the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods.

    9.4. Severability. If and to the extent any provision of this Agreement is held illegal, invalid, or unenforceable in whole or in part under applicable law, such provision or such portion thereof shall be ineffective as to the jurisdiction in which it is illegal, invalid, or unenforceable to the extent of its illegality, invalidity, or unenforceability and shall be deemed modified to the extent necessary to conform to applicable law so as to give the maximum effect to the intent of the parties. The illegality, invalidity, or unenforceability of such provision in that jurisdiction shall not in any way affect the legality, validity, or enforceability of any other provision of this Agreement in any other jurisdiction.

    That is, if your country doesn't have a sane conflict-of-law statute and doesn't forbid you transferring jurisdiction to California, you are essentially screwed.

    9.1. No Assignment; Insolvency. This Agreement and any rights hereunder are non-assignable and any purported assignment shall be void. The Agreement and the licenses granted hereunder shall terminate without further notice or action by Autodesk if You become bankrupt or insolvent, make an arrangement with Your creditors or go into liquidation.

    See what your legislation says about what we call "adhesive contracts" (contracts where one part writes the contract, and the other one, with a lower power to negotiate conditions, only signs. One kind of these "adhesive contracts" would be shrink-wrap contracts), and look carefully if THIS ONE IS FORBIDDEN. Why do they require your solvency? Is it relevant?

    6.3 Educational Institutional and Student Versions. WORK PRODUCT AND OTHER DATA CREATED WITH EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONAL VERSIONS AND STUDENT VERSIONS OF THE SOFTWARE CONTAINS CERTAIN NOTICES AND LIMITA

Children begin by loving their parents. After a time they judge them. Rarely, if ever, do they forgive them. - Oscar Wilde

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