eBay Australia Makes PayPal Mandatory 390
An anonymous reader writes "Australian press are reporting that eBay is using Australia as a guinea pig to trial a new policy where all other modes of payment are barred except for PayPal. If successful, eBay will roll it out to other markets."
From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)
This is one of many new initiatives that eBay and PayPal are doing to make it much more difficult for bad sellers to operate on eBay. As a result, you'll notice a dramatic improvement in quality when buying on eBay.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Informative)
See http://www.ev4.org/wordpress/category/fastmemorymanscam/ [ev4.org]
Basically if you buy an item from a seller, and it's wrong, defective, etc, paypal will give you a refund but only if you ship it to the seller's "registered" address, using a shipping service with online tracking. Because of this, sellers can register an address in a foreign country, sell low value goods, ship you garbage, and then it becomes uneconomical to send it back so the seller keeps your money.
Aside from the fact that that when selling something, i'd prefer *not* to use paypal, as i have to increase the cost of the item and shipping to cover paypal costs. I much prefer personal collection, i can demonstrate the item to prove it works, and i receive the full amount i sold the item for in cash.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Informative)
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
If Ebay Did make paypal mandatory, that would be a violation of Antitrust/monopoly laws, because it stifles competition & limits customer choice to zero. I'd start calling my various contacts within the U.S. and Pennsylvania government to see if I can talk them into Prosecuting Ebay in a court of law. Ebay's done a lot of dumb decisions lately, and pardon my French, but they are _______ me off. This would be the final straw to make me stand-up and demand justice & punishment.
I use Ebay like a garage sale, selling-off used but still "like-new" items.
But they have steadily made me feel unwelcome, as if they don't want my business, and I'm sick of it. Time to tear-down that arrogance the same way AT&T, Microsoft, and the CD Cartel were brought to task. Remind them of their true position in society (servant to the customer).
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
It should be obvious.
Requiring paypal only (not check, money order, nor credit card) limits the SELLERS' (who are the true customers of ebay) to zero choices. i.e. No choice. And that is a violation of various anti-monopoly laws within the United States (and likely the European Union too).
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Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Insightful)
Care to link to the appropriate U.S. federal regulation that says so? Because the U.S. Treasury says [treas.gov] that businesses can determine whatever payment methods they wish.
XYZ Mall could certainly require the payment terms you specified as part of the lease agreement. And, JCPenney would be free to simply find a different location for their store.
Surely eBay isn't the only place to sell stuff online?
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
I for one refuse to use PayPal ever again. I think we need something better than credit cards for buying and selling online but PayPal isn't the solution. It's became very evil since eBay bought it. I've considered creating my own alternative but I think to compete with PayPal and credit cards any alternative needs several major backers such as Amazon and iTunes if it is to have any hope. I'm surprised none of them have formed together to form an alternative as it'd seem they could easily boost their profits by cutting the expense of PayPal and credit card processing fees. If they saved a dime per transaction with the volume they do it'd be a fair savings.
A free, easy to use, well advertised, auction/store + online cash alternative to eBay + PayPal is a killer app waiting to happen. Lots of people hate eBay and PayPal. Lots of alternatives exist but none I've seen are both easy to use and well advertised.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyone have any good, bad, or indifferent experiences with 'em to relate?
As to eBay's new Paypal requirement, I think this is solely a move to ensure that eBay ALWAYS gets a cut from the payment processing. If some people lack the required resources, or prefer to use other payment methods, oh well, they weren't profitable to us anyway!!
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Informative)
Did you use Paypal before eBay bought it? Their status as an evil entity predates the eBay purchase by quite some time. We kept expecting Paypal to improve when eBay bought it, but instead it was just more of the same.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Informative)
He also falsely claims the memory is quality branded modules, when infact its often a cheap unbranded module constructed from chips from a reputable vendor running out of spec... For example, i bought a 1GB memory module advertised as "micron", and specifically listed as being compatible with the VIA K800 chipset. The module was made of micron chips, but the chips were intended to be used on 512MB modules, and thus were being run out of spec on a 1GB module, and the module itself wasnt made by micron. I also used an MSI K8T Neo motherboard, which according to MSI has the K800 chipset, according to fastmemoryman it has a "VIA 8231" chipset, which is actually the IDE controller.
He also relabels cheap unbranded flash memory cards and usb storage devices, some of which are lower capacity than he claims, but with hacked FAT tables to make them look bigger.
Not to mention the reverse shipping scam he runs, which he uses to scam people with paypal's blessing.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Funny)
It was nice hanging with you when we were younger, but since then I can feel we've grown our separate ways. I still remember our first dot com bubble burst like it was yesterday.
But, sadly it seems that you're hanging out with a new crowd these days and you've changed, I can't put my finger on it, but you're somehow different. It seems like you don't really care about me anymore, and you don't seem to have coped very well with some of the new people in town. [ebay.com]
I'm sorry to say it, after all of this time, but I'm seeing someone new [google.com] they're so much quicker and dealing with each individual companies policies still feels easier than dealing with your friend paypal.
I'm sorry it couldn't work out between us.
Signed,
The Internet.
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Insightful)
We are so confident that we don't even feel the need to justify it by adding the usual bullshit about security issues with other payments methods.
Take note that the purpouse of these innovations is ultimately to fuck you, our loyal user, in the ass. So you are welcome to join us to discuss your "position" on our Q&A Forums where our dedicated masters will educate you (in bdsm techniques)
For those of willing to submit without futile resistance we will grant some recreational activities including the online brainwashing course on how we did successfully turn a user supported community into a pyramidal scheme lookalike wich will benefit your ebay masters for a loong time"
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:5, Interesting)
I honestly sell my used stuff on ebay, and I am constantly discussing matters with buyers. If a problem arises ebay does either nothing or its best to screw me, This happens when I am the buyer and when I am the seller. And when selling even if a problem does not arise I am supposed to pay twice at least for the same item: Listing Fees, Final Value commission, Paypal submission fee.
By reklessly complying with those rules I managed to make 150 positive feedback and a couple of negs... guess where the negs come from? Paypal costumers. Ebay/Paypal on the other hand managed to make 200+â out of me wich is extraordinary unfair since their costs are just website hosting/band and staff. Also they are dropping the feedback system wich will lead the marginal utility of selling through them 0 (Call it costumer un-fidelization)
See any reason to be "not satisfied"?
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Re:From the horse's mouth (Score:4, Informative)
Paypal blows (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Paypal blows (Score:4, Funny)
Oh you meant ones where you can sell real goods? Damn...
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Re:Paypal blows (Score:4, Insightful)
re: recommending Craigslist (Score:3, Interesting)
But now I'm wondering if this was a "plan B" for them all along? If eBay goes
Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Informative)
I refuse to use paypal due to having bad experiences with it in the past.
In Australia i'd say paypal for paying for ebay auctions is hardly use AT ALL since in Australia its far easier and quicker and cheaper to pay using direct deposit with netbanking. That is THE standard pay to pay here. Why use a middle man? And now to be FORCED to use one? I don't think so.
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe you think my story is isolated but read online. Paypal routinely freezes peoples accounts only to never let them have their money.
Check out paypalsucks.com
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:4, Interesting)
also that only applies to the european branch of paypal. The US branch is afaict where most of the horror stories come from.
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you think my story is isolated but read online. Paypal routinely freezes peoples accounts only to never let them have their money.
But why would you let them "hold onto" your money?
I have a PayPal account and use it fairly often. I don't keep any money in there. What point is there in doing so? If I want to pay for something, I have PayPal take the money off my credit card. (They cannot do so without authorization, by law.) If I'm being paid for something, I wait until I have the payment notice and then I immediately have that money transferred to my bank account.
Even if you're a bulk seller, I can't see how it's all that difficult to just go in there once a day and transfer the balance to a bank account. It takes less than one minute.
PayPal should be seen as a conduit between buyers and sellers; that's it. If you use it that way (and it is the proper way to use it), then their service is fine. There's no reason to leave a bunch of money in your PayPal account. You may as well give it to some guy on the street and ask him to hold it for you.
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Never showed up on any credit report either.
Re:Definitely time to look for an alternative :( (Score:4, Insightful)
if you lived in the US, you'd be screwed. paypal is effectively unregulated there. hell the yanks can't even properly regulate their banks. regulation is unwanted, and there's been a lot of propaganda to make it a dirty word, because "regulation hinders business"....which is much more important than preventing consumers from being ripped off.
like you, i live in a country (AU) where paypal is regulated similarly to banks. after many years of wanting nothing to do with paypal, i finally gave in and got a paypal a/c a few years ago (but only after i got a second debit card - no way was i going to give them direct access to my bank account). now, though, i'm seriously considering cancelling both my paypal and ebay accounts in protest.
not that they'll care one little bit about my protest/boycott - there are way too many stupid sheep in the world who'll just accept ebay/paypal's "rules" without question and without even thinking about it.
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Quote: "Found it in the Trading Post"
2 - I'll absolutely, positively never use eBay now. I might have considered it, but not now.
Just alienated around 80% of their potential client base.
(note: 80% is a wild guestimate pulled out of my arse).
Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Legal status of Paypal? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Legal status of Paypal? (Score:5, Informative)
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I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayPal. (Score:5, Funny)
The only thing I would want to see added to the service is an escrow option. But the idea of sending a wire transfer, check or money order to some unknown entity on the internet sounds like a bad idea.
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I sold an item for over $1000 USD on ebay. Recieved payment by paypal. Sent item off. Payment went into bank account.
A few weeks later paypal contacts me saying that I was paid using a stolen paypal account, and to please return the money.
How about, ummm, get fucked? To this day paypal still wants to get this money back from me, so I refuse to use them. Its not my fault paypal has terrible security and lets everyone's accounts be phished and sellers get screwed by this?
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Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (Score:5, Informative)
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.
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"If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it."
In this case, you are the merchant. You dont get to keep the stolen money. Sorry.
Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (Score:5, Interesting)
Within the time, if the merchant cannot produce proof, the cardholder's complaint is sustained.
At NO time has the bank the legal authority to debit or even block access to the funds in merchant's account.
This is different from paypal, which is under no obligation to contact you, can and will block your account, and withdraw funds from it without due process.
And that is why paypal is different from a bank.
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Nope. If it were a bank, the merchant would pay for the loss or the bank will bear it.
As banking laws go, once the money is in your account, nobody (except by court order) can debit your account except you.
Nobody.
Similarly, they can't suddenly block access to your account without informing you in writing.
PayPal OTOH can debit your account and drain it fully and then refuse to explain why plus put you in call waiting.
And this is PRECISELY what is the problem with paypal.
Look up paypalsucks.com and other related sites.
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Half right. Its almost always the merchant.
And guess what, as the ebay seller, YOU are the merchant.
Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (Score:5, Informative)
No. Sorry. You are the one way off the mark.
As someone who has owned a business I can assure you, the merchant is the *business owner*. The other party is typically called a "bank", "merchant bank", "merchant account provider", "acquiring bank", or "acquirer"
Now, from the "merchant account providers" point of view...
"In the Visa and Mastercard rules, the merchant's processing bank [merchant account provider] is 100% responsible for all the transactions that the merchant performs. This can leave the provider open to millions of dollars of potential losses if the merchant operates in an illegal or risky manner and generates many chargebacks. The providers pass this cost on to the merchant, but if the merchant is fraudulent or simply does not have the money, the provider must pay all the costs to make the card holder whole."
Which is probably what you are talking about. So, Yes, its absolutely true that THEY (the merchant account providers) are liable for any fraudulent charges, and THEY must cover it. If you, as a cardholder phone Visa and ask who pays if your card is stolen, they'll just tell you 'not you'. If you persist they'll tell you that (according to PCI DSS [Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard]) the cost is borne by the bank providing the merchant account ["merchant account provider"].
However, as it says in the above quote, while they are responsible, they *invariably* try to recoup that cost, plus fees, plus fines, from the merchant (that would be YOU). They only get stuck holding the bag and taking a loss, if they CAN'T get the money from you...and that only happens if you're insolvent, or you've fled the country, or something equally drastic. If you are an upstanding reputable business in good standing, they WILL pass that cost on to you, and you WILL pay.
So as far as your card issuer or VISA is concerned yes, the liability rests with the merchant account provider. But you're daft if you don't think they in turn pass that liability to you via your 'merchant account' agreement/contract, and collect on it vigorously.
Look it up.
Re:I refuse to buy from sellers who dont take PayP (Score:5, Insightful)
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I know people have had problems with PayPal, and I'm not saying its perfect. However I've yet to see a better option.
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If it bounces, you don't ship anything, you don't get charged for depositing a fraudulent cheque, you may get investigated for it but if you can prove how you got hold of it you won't have any negative effects.
To process credit card transactions you need a merchant account, it is the merchant's responsibility to verify the legitimacy of
Is Ebay out for suicide? (Score:5, Insightful)
But if they cram paypal down my throat, I'll swallow something else. I'm already at the point where Ebay is my LAST resort, since their ratings have been so thoroughly gamed I have no idea who I'm really dealing with, anymore.
Forcing paypal? No way. I refuse. What's the next halfway decent auction house? Truthfully, I've already moved much of my online purchasing to froogle.com....
double dipping? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:double dipping? (Score:4, Interesting)
PayPal is not a Bank (Score:4, Interesting)
Secondly, As a bank i have recourse to my money when i demand it. Period.
With paypal i have to jump through many of their fraud hoops which assumes, as a recepient, am guilty of money laundering unless i prove myself to be innocent. That is not how a bank operates. And if a bank will not pay a lawfully presented demand for payment, i can force the bank into liquidation single-handedly. (Long before that the Reserve bank will intervene, but that is beside the point).
Thirdly, PayPal does not follow banking laws in opening accounts with it. Not even in fact the [in]famous SNOW accounts of Citi in early 1980s in US (Negotiated Order of Withdrawal).
Fourthly, if PayPal goes under, who will repay my money with them.
I think the ARb should intervene and either force Paypal to be a "bank" (which is unprofitable for them), or close down.
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They are a bank. Have been since around 2004, I think. Am I missing something?
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Paypal Australia Pty Ltd is an Authorised Deposit Taking Institution (the umbrella term covering banks, credit unions and building societies) according to APRA:
http://www.apra.gov.au/ADI/ADIList.cfm#PB [apra.gov.au]
There is no explicit guarantee (by the RBA or anyone else) on deposits held with banks or other ADIs in Australia, although it is often assumed that if one of the banks went bust, the government would bail them out.
Ebay screwing itself (Score:3, Insightful)
I will never create a PayPal account to take money from people. I just won't do it. So now I cannot sell anything on eBay anymore. Well if eBay can survive just from the Power Sellers, then that is what will happen, but it won't be a place for the average joe to sell his stuff.
I must also say that since eBay burned me and pissed me off, I have not even searched eBay for any products in over a month. I use to check pricegrabber.com, pricewatch.com, cdw.com, and a few other sites in addition to eBay. I don't even check eBay at all now.
Good Luck eBay, your going to need it.
Sourer Grapes (Score:3, Interesting)
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Competition laws (Score:5, Insightful)
If they roll it out in the EU, this could fall foul of competition laws; the credit card companies/banks could presumably complain of being shut out, given Ebay's near total dominance.
(Obvious the same could apply in other countries, but the EU currently seems keenest on actually enforcing competition laws.)
Alternatives (Score:3, Insightful)
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Besides, I have brought a number of good, cheap items and my wife has had some exceptional deals
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I find the computer / electronic goods totally overpriced on EBay.
I visit discount stores online like newegg.com and check out the prices on some on the cutting edge gear and then it all becomes clear why I don't buy this stuff on EBay. I've bought about 12 electronic things on ebay - besides being old model, more than half of it was defective or substandard in some way.
After throwing a lot of gear out I resolved to buy new online. Ebay think they have us by the Aussie short and curlies becuase we pay
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I buy all my "fashion" from second hand clothing shops and "op shops". Far cheaper than ebay as I don't get stung with postage for each item.
Oh, my girlfriend would "never" buy second hand clothes. She thinks I'm a tramp for doing it. But hey, I spend about $300 per year on clothes as compared to about $3k.
Re:Alternatives (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.specialistauctions.com/ [specialistauctions.com]
http://www.52marketplace.com/ [52marketplace.com]
http://www.cqout.com/ [cqout.com]
http://www.ebid.net/ [ebid.net]
http://www.tazbar.com/ [tazbar.com]
http://www.oneway-uk.com/ [oneway-uk.com]
http://www.avabid.com/ [avabid.com]
I have only had a quick look at each, http://www.ebid.net/ [ebid.net] seems to have the most comprehensive items list from a buyer's point of view
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GunBroker.com (Score:3, Informative)
If its mandatory it should be free (Score:5, Insightful)
Ebay is going way way down under (Score:4, Insightful)
Of course.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Tangent --- (Score:2, Insightful)
Contrast this with Amazon, Google & Yahoo whose operating ethos is still relatviely benign (especially when compared to Microsoft or Apple). Getting to my point... I think Google at the moment is not evil, but you can bet your bottom dollar when L
Not just Australia (Score:5, Interesting)
hmmm. (Score:5, Insightful)
as a buyer paypal has some good points - limited protection, traceability, etc.
but as a seller it sucks big time as just adds another set of fees to your sale.
eBay nicks nearly 5-10% of the sale price including paypal.
if they made paypal free and just part of the eBay service then there might not be so many arguments, but to enforce it and then make additional money is such a blatent money grab that this will backfire big time.
buyers may like it, but if there are no sellers then there will be no buyers. it will be interested to watch how the number of items for sale changes in ebay.au after this is enforced. anybody know how we can plot a graph of items for sale vs. date to track the impact?
I'm guessing that there will be such a negative impact in
from eBays point of view they are being pressurized to add more traceability into their system by law enforcement worried about fraud and fencing - so they are really between a rock and a hard place here.
one thing is certain - behind every internet giant is a number if "would bes" who will seize every opportunity to steal business, so eBay will have to tread carefully here.
ACCC can determine this is anti-competitive (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, forcing your customers to use your subsidiary company (or any supplier, for that matter) sounds pretty anti-competitive to me... and - if the Aussie comtetition watchdog barks loudly enough, eBay may have to play fair again.
I'm sure credit card vendors will scream "Fowl!" soon...
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Shooting themselves in the wallet (Score:2, Insightful)
Is this illegal? (Score:3, Interesting)
Admittedly the above is from my recall of High School business studies, and IANALADHAT (I am not a lawyer and damned happy about that).
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Not illegal in the US (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a US Treasury Dept. link from a comment I recently modded Informative:
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml [ustreas.gov]
I cannot find the comment now, Slashdot's search function is too under-powered
meanwhile... (Score:3, Interesting)
After introducing fees for their auctions, they dropped from their 3rd place with a good chance to become 2nd to being somewhere along with the two last places - auction sites that are subject-specific, collector auctions. Very few desperate sellers use it, and over 90% offers 'from Poland' are listed as 'e-book, electronic delivery only, free shipping world-wide', foreign auctions.
Anti-Trust issues? (Score:4, Interesting)
the EU has given microsoft plenty of shit over the years for anti-competitive behaviour, it will be interesting to see if/what kind of flack ebay attracts over this.
Wow, that'll stop me using eBay, period. (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm barred because I (as a seller) was scammed and left £300 out of pocket - when I tried to complain to PayPal, I couldn't even get through to a human being, and they automatically assumed that I was the fraudster, and shut down my account. Ironically, they were slower at shutting down the scammer's account on both eBay and PayPal, despite my attempted warnings, and they went on to scam a few other people before they were finally barred.
By the way, is there a decent alternative to eBay, or have they got a complete monopoly?
Isnt this a violation of competition laws? (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone know the right way to get the ACCC to investigate this?
Re:Isnt this a violation of competition laws? (Score:5, Informative)
no way no how (Score:3, Informative)
i simply can't be ass'd doing it again, easier to just use gray's online or something.
Do not accept PayPal ! (Score:4, Informative)
Chargeback is basically fraud protection - if someone's credit card is stolen they can recover any lost money. But where do you think this money comes from ? From the credit card issuing company ? From PayPal ? Nope - the fraudulent transactions are reversed, so the person who originally received payment ends up footing the loss. That's maybe all well and good when you are talking about large companies and small levels of fraud, but now with eBay we are talking about literally millions of small time sellers, and probably hundreds of thousands of fraudulent transactions.
What this means is that if you accept PayPal payment, unless you are very careful about being 'protected' (and even then, who knows how far that protection covers you) you will be totally liable for any credit card fraud that transpires when someone purchases from you. The chargeback can (and does) occur MONTHS after the original transaction.
I strongly advise everyone NOT to accept PayPal payments at all. If eBay is forcing PayPal onto sellers, then I recommend ditching eBay - the risk of fraud is too big. You might as well leave your items on the street with an honesty box.
Re:Do not accept PayPal ! (Score:5, Insightful)
In my jurisdiction, the buyer carries any risks from the point on when the seller ships the item. The seller only needs to prove he shipped the item, if the buyer never receives it he needs to take it up with the shipping company. If the buyer is concerned about losing the package, he should feel free to take out some sort of insurance (at his own expense).
The buyer could still claim that the package didn't contain the item in question, but that would mean he's openly accusing the seller of fraud and there are significant punishments for doing so unfounded.
.coms forgetting what made them successful (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems that with this, and the Amazon [slashdot.org] news from a few days ago, some of the companies that experienced rapid growth during the first .com bubble by offering what the customer wants vs the old model of trying to control the market are now switching to the old model. They control enough of the market now that it probably seems safe to their board to do this, but they are forgetting how rapidly they themselves were able to grab market share, and seem to be missing the fact that if someone new moves into the space they are vacating, the market share that the new company takes will come almost entirely from their customer base. They should also keep in mind that it won't necessarily be a startup that moves into their space; Google, Yahoo and Microsoft are all contenders that could jump in and cause a massive shift in the market almost immediately.
Bye bye, eBay (Score:3, Interesting)
If they start insisting on PayPal, I will cease using eBay. I do not want my transactions monitored so closely, thank you very much. Part of me is even surprised that eBay have not started a delivery company {or bought up an existing one} and started trying to strong-arm people into using that
paypal sucks (Score:3, Informative)
My experience and friends experience with them, makes this one of those things that saddens me.
If they could up their regulations and communications with their clients, then maybe but they do everything to avoid talking with you about the problems you may be having. NEVER KEEP LARGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNTS, THEY CAN FREEZE IT AT THEIR DISCRETION AT ANY TIME WITHOUT NOTICE.
My friends sells batteries, as a powerseller, and whenever he has problems with credit cards, he can usually get info from the card company, even if he has to swallow the charge, however if there is an indiscretion with someone else's paypal used to purchase his item, he gets frozen until they can figure out what happened, and they are very slow, almost retarded...so he waits and waits, he has a few accounts set up in case of such thing, that way he can still do business..
but what a hassle, it isn't his fault someone frauded someone else's account, so why does he pay
in lost revenue etc....?