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The Military Technology

Military Uses Virtual Iraq To Treat PTSD 172

Hugh Pickens writes "Traditionally the best treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder [PTSD] — being raped, narrowly escaping the collapse of the Twin Towers, or witnessing a buddy die on the battlefield — is to have the person relive the trauma using his or her imagination. Repeated exposure to the horror can desensitize individuals and help them stay calm enough to reprocess what happened and get beyond it. Now Clinical Psychologist Albert "Skip" Rizzo has developed a program that has had great success in treating returning troops from Iraq. A soldier with PTSD recounts what happened, and a therapist seated before a computer then creates an environment in the program Virtual Iraq that captures the essential elements of the episode. By donning special goggles, the soldier can see a reenactment and while the simulation starts off relatively tame over the course of several weeks, the therapist monitors the patient 's response and more elements of the episode are introduced until the individual can finally go through an intensely vivid recreation of it without being overpowered by terror. Other programs offered to treat PTSD include Virtual Airplane, Virtual Audiences, Virtual Heights, Virtual Storm, and Virtual Vietnam."
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Military Uses Virtual Iraq To Treat PTSD

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  • by Enderandrew ( 866215 ) <enderandrewNO@SPAMgmail.com> on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @06:42PM (#25047037) Homepage Journal

    * Watching Uwe Boll films.
    * Being a chair in Ballmer's office.
    * Working as a new Microsoft guru and telling the angry masses with a straight face that Vista is great! No, really, it is!

    • * Reading Slashdot's Disagree Mail.
      * Watching anything on Fox News.
      * The new Firefox "Awesome" bar.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by ArsonSmith ( 13997 )

        *
        * profit

    • Traditionally the best treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder [PTSD] -- being raped, narrowly escaping the collapse of the Twin Towers, or witnessing a buddy die on the battlefield -- is to have the person relive the trauma using his or her imagination.

      Uh oh.

      Are they going to force rape victims watch rape-hentai now?

      ~Jarik

  • I don't see this being particularly helpful if the cause was rape or watching a friend die though. I'd imagine you'd just feel worse.

    • by kaiser423 ( 828989 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @07:09PM (#25047493)
      The point isn't to make you feel better. The point is to be able to address what happened and move on....it's not a huge surprise that talking through in a controlled, supportive environment what happened might help people address the situation and resolve it.

      Of course, if the armchair /. people have other methods that have been empirically backed by a number of excellent studies, I'm sure that these people would be all ears. They're really just doing their best to help, and would love some more.
      • by RingDev ( 879105 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @11:50PM (#25050411) Homepage Journal

        Of course, if the armchair /. people have other methods that have been empirically backed by a number of excellent studies, I'm sure that these people would be all ears. They're really just doing their best to help, and would love some more.

        I've got one... don't send our young men and women into wars unnecesarily.

        PTSD is a lot less impacting if you never have to experience the traumatic part.

        -Rick

        • I might be more agreeable to this if it were Vietnam and we had the draft. But this is an all volunteer force, 99% of which have either enlisted, re-enlisted, been commissioned, or extended since the war in Iraq began. If they didn't want to be there, they wouldn't be.
          • by MRe_nl ( 306212 )

            re:If they didn't want to be there, they wouldn't be.
            from another post:The fact is that there are people for whom the military is the best/only job opportunity, or the best/only chance at college, or the best/only chance at getting out of their rapidly failing town.
            Free choice entails a starting basis of equality in set and setting.
            Many of our so-called free choices are in reality severly limited IMHO.

            • True, for some. There are also some (many people I know personally) who joined/re-enlisted/extended/went back in post 9/11 in order to serve their country in time of need. I know people who gave up college scholarships to enlist in the Marines. I know people who voluntarily came out of retirement to go to Iraq. Also, re-enlistment rates in the Marine Corps have been higher since the war in Iraq started. Each year, they have had to turn Marines away where before the war they sometimes fell short of quot
              • by RingDev ( 879105 )

                So what you are saying is that PTSD is okay so long as our troops and Marines are happy while they are in theater?

                I'm not saying we shouldn't send our military into conflicts, I'm not saying our young men and women are idiots for signing up (hell, I did my 4), what I am saying is that we are currently engaged in two internation policing actions with the military. 1 of these actions is the result of a government sponsored terrorist attack that killed thousands of Americans. 1 of these actions is the result o

                • So what you are saying is that PTSD is okay so long as our troops and Marines are happy while they are in theater?

                  Um, not even close. Your answer was to just not send them to war. My retort was that they're volunteers and by and large want to be there. PSTD is serious and we need to support those who come back with it. I just didn't want this to turn into another "sending our kids to war" argument. They're grown ups who voluntarily signed up in war time. They know what they're doing.

                  1 of these actions is the result of a misinformation campaign designed to pursue a political agenda in the Middle East

                  Sadly, somewhat true.

                  specifically in a country that was of no threat to the USA.

                  Whoah there buddy! Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Iraqi agents were involved in the 93 WTC

                  • by RingDev ( 879105 )

                    Um, not even close. Your answer was to just not send them to war.

                    Negative ghost rider. My answer was to not send them to war unnecessarily. PTSD is a very serious issue. I work for an R&D firm with a bunch of doctors who lead the field in depression, anxiety, OCD, dimentia and other related mental health conditions. We have been lobbying hard to get one of our IVR based mental health screening systems in with the VA so that we can help identify the vets who are most at risk and get them immediate attention. None of this fill out a pamphlet and wait 6 months BS.

                    Whoah there buddy! Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Iraqi agents were involved in the 93 WTC attack, the 95 OKC attack, and probably the 98 Embassy bombing. They were far from "no threat."

                    I thin

                    • The '98 Embassy bombing was carried out by alQueda. al Queda is a Sunni Islamic terror organization with no ties to the country of Iraq

                      Then why did UBL say he conducted the Embassy bombings in response to UN sanctions against Iraq? Why show such strong support for Iraq when they're not involved? BTW, the Embassy bombings were 7 Aug 98, 2 days after Saddam thew out weapons inspectors. Seems an awfully big coincidence for UBL to attack us so close to Saddam's action, then issue a letter taking credit sayig he did it to support Iraq.

                      The 95 Oklahoma City bombing was entirely funded and performed by US citizens

                      Read The Third Terrorist by Jayna Davis. Turns out John Doe #2 was Hussein al Husseini, an Iraqi agent. Nic

          • by MRe_nl ( 306212 )

            re: If they didn't want to be there, they wouldn't be.
            Many of these so called volunteers have very little actual choice in the matter.
            No money, no education, no job, no future prospects, and lied to by the recruiters.
            Volunteer now! (Or become a homeless junkie.) Yay free will!

            • by MRe_nl ( 306212 )

              Sorry for the double, one might say triple, post.
              The system seemed to have eaten my original reply, yet here it appears.
              I wish more things in life functioned thusly...

      • by TheLink ( 130905 )

        But where are the studies that show that "reliving the trauma" is better in general?

        There's so far evidence that the popular method of "reliving or talking about it" isn't such a good idea:

        http://www.spring.org.uk/2008/06/venting-emotions-after-trauma-predicts.php [spring.org.uk]

        http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1296912 [nih.gov]

        http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/mar/11/mentalhealth.healthandwellbeing [guardian.co.uk]

        I'm inclined that like most memory stuff, repeating something over and over again just makes it easier for

      • by Jurily ( 900488 )

        The point isn't to make you feel better. The point is to be able to address what happened and move on...

        Making someone relive the worse experience in their life is not just torture, it entrenches the trauma even more in their life.

        As for other things you can do to help, try NLP [wikipedia.org]. Oh, and exactly what use is empirically backing something with excellent studies that doesn't work? NLP does.

    • by mikael ( 484 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @07:19PM (#25047655)

      The problem is that the individual is likely to suffer from flashbacks whenever similar simple events happen in the real world. If they are walking down the street, and hear a loud noise such as a car backfiring, a container door being slammed, or some construction work, it would trigger those memories causing them to freeze-up, get angry or be unhappy.

      The idea of this treatment is to desensitize them to these events so that those memories aren't triggered.

    • by Kooty-Sentinel ( 1291050 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @07:39PM (#25047915) Homepage
      I couldn't imagine being a rape victim and being subject to this.... "Welcome to Virtual Rape 1.0 - Simulated Rape to help enable you to conquer your fears"
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by drcarson ( 935537 )
        What would they do, simulate an attack and then throw on a porn video with your face crudely pasted over the others. This sounds like either a sick video/video game or a bad reference. Lets hope at least.
      • No means No, Clippy!
    • I don't see this being particularly helpful if the cause was rape or watching a friend die though. I'd imagine you'd just feel worse.

      I was planning to get through a dungeon full of dragons... we were all ready, and then Leroy.... BWAAAA! *SOB*

      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by MPAB ( 1074440 )

        What happened? Was he eaten by a grue?

    • by ozphx ( 1061292 )

      Depends on who is doing the raping?

      Sign me up for Virtual Getting Raped By A Pack of Hot Bisexual Chicks 3D.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Scientology techniques combined with computers!

    More seriously though, this is an effective technique, but it is painful for the person going through it. There are much better techniques found in fringe places like NLP that provide ways for people to get through severe problems like that without forcing them to relive trauma such as a rape over and over again. This technique seems almost sadistic.

  • by MarkusQ ( 450076 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @06:44PM (#25047065) Journal

    I'm waiting for Virtual Staff Meeting.

    *shudder*

    Although I suppose the fact that I can joke about it means I'm coming along. *twitch* *twitch*

    --MarkusQ

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Repeated exposure to the horror can desensitize individuals...

    That must explain American television. How can anybody in their right mind watch that sh*t?

    • I saw all those comments hinting that this treatment seemed sadistic, and I immediately thought, sadistic? try watching network television....

      I suppose it would work though, I just get an image of Will Smith in a particularly nasty Clockwork Orange therapy film... over and over

  • by mangu ( 126918 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @06:48PM (#25047137)

    ...do they have Virtual Girls?

  • Hard Sell (Score:5, Funny)

    by omnilynx ( 961400 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @06:48PM (#25047139)
    Yeah, I don't think "Virtual Rape" and "Virtual 9/11" will go over to well.
  • by t0qer ( 230538 )

    Yet another way for the veterans affairs office to waste taxpayers dollars.

    http://fnonsl.fantasy-net.net/category/vet-center [fantasy-net.net]
    ^^^__Did you know the VA hospital owns property in second life? They're going to build virtual ski slopes for the legless vets to ski down. Woohoo!

    Kind of reminds me of the carlin skit "Dollys for froggys"

    • Waste? (Score:3, Insightful)

      If it helps legless vets, more power to them. You sound like the kind who spit on returning Vietnam vets.

      • Exactly what I was about to say. If it works then it's not a waste of money. Actually, when I get old, I'd like to have a sort of virtual heaven where people can do plenty of stuff instead of wasting their time on the balcony and admire the grass grow.
      • You sound like the kind who spit on returning Vietnam vets.

        Just the legless ones. Sounds like a typical libertarian.

      • by t0qer ( 230538 )

        No i'm the kind of guy who thinks;

        a. Our soldiers shouldn't be overseas in the first place.

        b. the ones that have had thier legs/arms blown off, should get new arms/legs. What the hell is a video game going to do for them?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by kaiser423 ( 828989 )
      You do know that exposure therapy is the most effective (and sadly, just about the only) treatment for PTSD? It really is amazingly effective, and has been backed up by a large number of peer-reviewed studies as being an excellent tool.

      This seems to be the next generation of exposure therapy. I say bravo to the VA for pushing lead-edge therapies (that have significant literature backing their efficacy) that may help save a number of our individuals form lifetimes of hurt. One of the tragedies of this
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by registrar ( 1220876 )

      Yet another way for the veterans affairs office to waste taxpayers dollars.

      Do you think the cost of this intervention is anything like the cost of the war to begin with? It's a trivial extra cost. Decent nations factor in the cost of being nice to the vets after a war.

      More importantly, is the cost of the intervention more than the cost of having the PTSD sufferer continue to suffer? Fixing up a young traumatised soldier is an investment: from one rather crass point of view, the government effectively invests in creating taxpayers, and I bet refurbishing a soldier is much cheap

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by registrar ( 1220876 )

        PS. yes, that sort of whining about health expenditure makes me really angry and anti-american. It is amazing how so many Americans believe that their system is superior and the only morally defensible system. Empirically, it is more expensive and less effective than other Western systems. People die because of your theoretical whining about 'socialised health systems.'

        Yes, yours is a great country and all, but it's got a few damned ugly patches, and the worst of it is that so many of you don't have th

        • Thanks (Score:3, Interesting)

          by McDutchie ( 151611 )
          Thank you for both of your posts. My sentiments exactly. I've actually had an American acquaintance of mine die of complications from undiagnosed diabetes because he couldn't get healthcare coverage in that lovely capitalist paradise. He was in his twenties and his death is frankly unnecessary and tragic.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by McDutchie ( 151611 )

      Yet another way for the veterans affairs office to waste taxpayers dollars.

      http://fnonsl.fantasy-net.net/category/vet-center [fantasy-net.net] [fantasy-net.net]
      ^^^__Did you know the VA hospital owns property in second life? They're going to build virtual ski slopes for the legless vets to ski down. Woohoo!

      From your link: "It is supported by primarily by donations and is not affiliated with or sponsored by any US government agency."

      Try again.

  • hm... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Doesn't any of the 100 million war themed FPS work?

  • Virtual Vietnam

    I think I played that game years ago. It was severely unbalanced in the beginning with the attack helicopters that couldn't be shot down and the M60 infantry being deadly accurate on the move.

  • by Sir Holo ( 531007 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @06:56PM (#25047249)
    Other programs offered to treat PTSD include Virtual Airplane, Virtual Audiences, Virtual Heights, Virtual Storm, and Virtual Vietnam."

    And for the slashdot crowd, Virtual Pick-up, Virtual Bar-scene, and Virtual Date.
  • then someone should port the terror scenarios to an fps

    SERGEANT BILKO WENT INSANE DUE TO WHAT HAPPENED HERE, can you survive?

  • Good idea. (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Let me know when they come out with Virtual Catholic Elementary School.

  • Doesn't this show that intense violent video games might very well have a desensitizing effect on kids? I'm not talking about stupid theories about turning kids into killers, I just mean that they might react less strongly, and possibly less negatively, to violence after playing Grand Theft Auto. Something to think about. Anyone have any studies based on this?

    p.s.
    I'm a gamer and personally love GTA and many other other very violent games.

    • Maybe if it was graphic, realistic violence. But I would doubt cartoon GTA or Halo-style violence desensitizes very much. That's worlds away from actual violence. Even on graphic shows like the Sopranos or whatever, the violence is very stylized and not depicted in a realistic way.

      A better example would be something like snuff films. But if you're watching snuff films, my guess is that you already have problems.

  • by A nonymous Coward ( 7548 ) * on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @07:05PM (#25047427)

    What if you suffer from PTSD induced in Second Life? Do they have a Virtual Virtual?

  • I've had virtual sex so many times I'm desensitized to that now, too.
  • This reminds me a little of the film Brainstorm [imdb.com] where they invent a device to record & playback sensations (audio/video/taste/touch/smell), but like any new & wonderful invention the military see what use they can use it for and develop recordings to torture people with.
    • by Zordak ( 123132 )

      and develop recordings to torture people with.

      IIRC, the technique was refined over time, and finally perfected with the "doomsday" hologram codenamed "BRTN-E SPRS"

  • Holy shit! When is this getting released!?
    I'd play this!
  • The desensitization of an individual to violence through psychological conditioning is frequently featured in fiction, in the ST:TNG episode The Mind's Eye [memory-alpha.org] for example, as part of a multi-sensory simulation program necessary (supposedly) to create a Manchurian Candidate [wikipedia.org] style assassin. Theses studies offer at least some proof that people can be conditioned [wikipedia.org] to have a very casual reaction to an episode(s) of extreme violence, so perhaps the fiction is not too far off the mark.
  • by DynaSoar ( 714234 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @07:33PM (#25047823) Journal

    "Other programs offered to treat PTSD include Virtual Airplane, Virtual Audiences, Virtual Heights, Virtual Storm, and Virtual Vietnam."

    All but the last are for desenstitization of phobias (as are those for snakes and spiders). The same programs would work for PTSD as they're simply VR of exposure to a particular situation, but I can't recall there ever being a case of audience-induced PTSD.

    Rizzo has also used his VR work in stroke rehab, a worthy effort. OTOH, he used it to 'erase' the well known and much decried persistent gender effects (males being better at it than females) in the mental rotation task (MRT) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_rotation [wikipedia.org] . Not bad work, but he credited VR, not simply exposure and practice. One of my undergrad labs approached the Virginia Tech VR "tank" folks and asked for help in replicating this. The VR lab suggested using VRML instead for our own convenience. We did so, and we built two full sets of the MRT out of wooden blocks. We tested males and females from psychology as well as from engineering. We found the effect he did, but got the same effect from both virtual and manual manipulation. The effect was from practice, not specifically VR immersion.

    To pull this back on topic, the above tends to support the traditional military medicine model for treating "shell shock" and "battle fatigue" (as PTSD was know for the past century) by exposure, ie. "return to the battlefield as soon as possible". Just as with electroshock therapy, much as I dislike the fact the numbers show it to be effective.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Animats ( 122034 )

      To pull this back on topic, the above tends to support the traditional military medicine model for treating "shell shock" and "battle fatigue" (as PTSD was know for the past century) by exposure, ie. "return to the battlefield as soon as possible". Just as with electroshock therapy, much as I dislike the fact the numbers show it to be effective.

      It's different in prolonged low-intensity combat situations. The WWII observation was that most troops were likely to develop debilitating PTSD after about 200

    • We don't call it "shell shock" anymore because it isn't something that just happens to soldiers. My Father developed PTSD on the job as a police officer after a shooting incident where we was forced to take a young man's life in order to save his own.

      On that note, getting out of police work was probably the best thing that's ever happened to him. The "traditional military medicine model" forces the mentally disabled into life-or-death situations that they might not be able to handle due to the severity of t

    • "Other programs offered to treat PTSD include Virtual Airplane, Virtual Audiences, Virtual Heights, Virtual Storm, and Virtual Vietnam."

      All but the last are for desenstitization of phobias (as are those for snakes and spiders). The same programs would work for PTSD as they're simply VR of exposure to a particular situation, but I can't recall there ever being a case of audience-induced PTSD.

      Ah, I see, that makes more sense. I was kinda wondering how many people were traumatized by an audience.

      So, if say I

      • So, if say I had a phobia of airplanes, and at the same time say a phobia of snakes, then the most optimal treatment would be Virtual...?

        ... Valium?

        I know where you were headed. I saw Samuel L. Jackson interviewed by Jon Stewart, and they made ample use of the phrase. So did others. It got overused. To use it now would be cheap. So I refuse to say [Virtual] Snakes On A Motherfucking Plane.
        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        .
        Oh damn.

    • -exposure, ie. "return to the battlefield as soon as possible"

      When you have PTSD, there is a difference in returning to the actual battlefield and returning home. The coping mechanisms and traits that you learned on the battlefield are almost by definition very well suited to life on the battlefield; e.g., avoiding wide open spaces, keeping your weapon at the ready, sleeping in body armor, keeping your bags packed, hitting the deck pronto if you hear explosions, etc.

      Those traits don't always emotionally exp

      • I hope this helps someone. And any vets that read this: look up your local VA or vet center. There's no shame in getting help.

        -B out.

        I go to Mountain Home VAMC in Johnson City TN. Reckon they can help me? I need help trying to figure out where anything you said comprises a correction to what I said (as you changed the subject to indicate). Looks more like you used a piece of a phrase for a jumping off point to express some good but barely relevant pieces of information and some fairly relevant tangents.

        • Sorry, I was referring to:

          the above tends to support the traditional military medicine model for treating "shell shock" and "battle fatigue" (as PTSD was know for the past century) by exposure, ie. "return to the battlefield as soon as possible"

          I thought that what you meant was that the best therapy for a soldier was to get them back into battlefield mode, either by deploying them again or by letting them pretend that they were still in the battlefield at home. I was saying (in a roundabout way, I suppose)

  • by Fished ( 574624 )
    I'm surprised that the summary makes no mention of EMDR [wikipedia.org]. Speaking from personal experience, I've found that to be a very effective treatment for PTSD, and far less time-consuming than traditional approaches.
  • by namayake ( 1037920 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @09:31PM (#25049241)
    I was doing research on PTSD a few years back for personal reasons. The studies I found were quite shocking to say the least. PTSD isn't just caused by being on the battle field or having one major traumatic event happen. Most of the things people go to therapists for; depression, anxiety, trust issues, etc. are all symptoms of milder forms of trauma. It's all PTSD. Dr. Amen, one of the leading psychiatrists in the world on brain scanning technology has scanned thousands of people. The scans he does sense chemical-electric activity in the brain. What he's found is very, very few people actually have healthy brain activity; most people have suffered from trauma. The general populace seems to see it though as "that's life" rather than seeing mental illness as the plague of humanity. Mental illness is truly a disease as it's contagious; people tend to reenact their trauma and in doing so traumatize others. And most treatment is laughable to say the least. Different types of treatment were tested on Viet Nam vets. The combination of talk or cognitive therapy with pharmacolatherapy and relaxation exercises only had a 15% recovery rate.Then I discovered a fairly new therapy called EMDR (Eye Movement, Desensitization & Reprocessing). It was developed and has been tested since the mid-80's. The recovery rate was far higher; 85% of all patience diligently engaged in weekly sessions recovered. So the question is, why isn't there more media coverage of this? Why aren't more therapists trained in something that actually works?
    • by piojo ( 995934 )

      Do you have any references for your assertion that we are all mentally ill? Forgive me for being skeptical, I do think "that's life."

      Could you explain the brain differences you allude to between healthy and unhealthy people? I have a hard time accepting your premise that, as I see it, is that most of us are in an unnatural state of being screwed up.

      • I have a hard time accepting your premise that, as I see it, is that most of us are in an unnatural state of being screwed up.

        I dunno. Personally, I can't think of too many people I know who AREN'T screwed up.

  • EULAs? (Score:5, Funny)

    by nick_davison ( 217681 ) on Wednesday September 17, 2008 @10:20PM (#25049707)

    "Traditionally the best treatment for [PTSD] â" being raped . . . is to have the person relive the trauma using his or her imagination . . .

    Now Clinical Psychologist Albert "Skip" Rizzo has developed a program that has had great success . . .

    Other programs offered to treat PTSD include Virtual Airplane, Virtual Audiences, Virtual Heights, Virtual Storm, and Virtual Vietnam."

    Or, for people who've been raped and need repeated exposure, AT&T have created a program called "our EULA [slashdot.org]"

  • The next step is to use this pre-emptively as part of "training". A soldier exposed in advance to killing and extreme sensory input, will not only not need therapy later, but be more effective as his job.

    "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

  • I'm pretty sure something like this was part of the story in Miracleman: The Golden Age. The plot involved taking cold war spies and putting them in a recreation of East Germany.

  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • To get through Virtual Valerie.
  • What, no Virtual CowboyNeal option?
  • EFT (Score:2, Interesting)

    by CNTOAGN ( 1111159 )
    The simple techniques of EFT (http://www.emofree.com/) seem to have a very positive affect on all types of emotionally charged internal problems. In the cases of treating PTSD, it has been extremely affective. My son is in the army and will be deployed next spring - I've talked with him about this and shown him how it works - I hope that it will help when he encounters the problems of being "on" 24/7 for months at a time.

"Conversion, fastidious Goddess, loves blood better than brick, and feasts most subtly on the human will." -- Virginia Woolf, "Mrs. Dalloway"

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