Automation May Make Toll Roads More Common 585
bfwebster writes "Here in Denver, we have E-470, a toll section of the 470 beltway, that uses the usual transponder attached to your windshield. Fair enough, and I make use of it, particularly in driving to the airport. But they've just implemented new technology on E-470 that allows anyone to drive through the automated toll gates. If you don't have a transponder, it takes a photo of your license plate and sends a monthly bill to your house. As a result, the company that runs E-470 plans to close all human-staffed toll booths by mid-summer. And as an article in this morning's Rocky Mountain News notes, 'Such a system could be deployed on other roads, including some that motorists now use free. The result: a new source of money for highways and bridges badly in need of repair.' You can bet that legislators, mayors, and city councilpersons everywhere will see this as an even-better source of income than red-light cameras. You've been warned."
Yeah, it would be cool in an ideal world... (Score:5, Insightful)
...where everyone can be trusted and no one uses false plates to
1) not having to pay
2) just playing a prank to someone.
It will happen the same as with the red light cameras. People will use false license plates or even no plates at all.
Re: (Score:2)
Not to mention using select foreign plates.
How do you think a Russian or Polish plate will be handled?
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Re:Yeah, it would be cool in an ideal world... (Score:5, Interesting)
Seriously! You people down in the states still use toll booths? How deliciously quaint. Here in Ontario we've been using automated systems for a long time on the ETR with no problems well at least none with the actual mechanics of the system. The company that runs it are a bunch of jackasses and the government should be shot for selling it to that company in the first place but there you go.
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Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I pay everything with cash. I don't currently have a checking account or a credit card.
That's really surprising to me -- the only people I know without bank accounts are illegal immigrants! I wouldn't want to have large amounts of cash in my possession, either in my wallet or in my home.
Here in London, you can pay the Congestion Charge -- also done with number plate recognition -- by credit/debit card (either online, by text message, or over the phone) or with cash (at many shops) or by post (only in advance, and by cheque). But toll booths wouldn't be an option anyway!
Simple solution actually... (Score:3, Interesting)
Introduction of "random checks" near the tollbooths that prove to have a significant enough number of "bounced" toll charges.
They have a photo of the car, driver and the license plate that "bounced" - they know who to stop.
So, you either end up in some serious trouble for driving a car with fake license plates OR you don't get caught that time (cause you were not using them at the time) but you NEVER get the bright idea do that again.
Sure, until you get nailed. (Score:4, Interesting)
Because of course as soon as they bill you and find out you don't exist then they have a description of the car.
In fact it would be much better than that for them. First of all the toll system can look you up RIGHT AWAY, and if the camera is smart enough to determine make, model, and color of car, then surely a mismatch comes up or the plate doesn't exist at all, and 5 miles down the road you're pulled over.
And the fine for a fake plate, well it probably isn't pretty. It sure is a lot more serious than a speeding ticket. I'd be quite willing to bet that it costs more than the toll x1000.
Even if they only figure it out a week later they still know what the car looks like.
Now couple this with extra cameras the fact that it is getting pretty easy to track individual vehicles in real time and I don't think too many people would get away with it for long. They only have to EVENTUALLY bust 1% of the offenders to make it not worth doing. Especially if you get a 90 suspension or something.
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First of all the toll system can look you up RIGHT AWAY, and if the camera is smart enough to determine make, model, and color of car, then surely a mismatch comes up or the plate doesn't exist at all, and 5 miles down the road you're pulled over.
One of the problems in the UK is that we've recently changed the laws on getting number plates made up so that you need to bring the car's registration documents with you when you buy them. Unlike a lot of countries where you get replacement plates every year (or
As used in Ireland (Score:5, Informative)
Re:As used in Ireland (Score:5, Funny)
As cities get more and more needy due to the collapse of society as we now know it you can bet that they will find ways of getting your money. Naturally the threat will be the loss of a drivers' permit.
There really is a solution. Get rid of your cars. That is the first lesson the homeless learn. The police use car related excuses to interview or harass them until they get rid of their cars. Wanted felons also understand that the only contact likely with the cops is if they drive.
In essence you are like the rabbit. Beg to be tossed in the brier patch. Once you no longer fear loss of that driver's license you have won the battle. No more tolls, tickets or meaningless interviews will trouble you. You'll save a fortune and your health will improve from the pedaling. If you are married to a lazy spouse you can bet that pedaling will take care of that relationship as well. You will also learn to live close to work saving you a bundle of time every day.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My car is the only thing that shields me from the failures of society. This 3mm steel wall between me and the scum is all I can ever hope to get in the now socialist Western Europe.
I have no legally available weapon to defend myself against millions of knife-wielding gangsters in our buses and subways, the "youth", you know who I'm talking about.
The police feeding off my taxes is overwhelmed with hundreds of calls every hour, while and because judges and state attorneys will free two out of three suspects b
Re:As used in Ireland (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you have any data at all to support these assertions? From the second statement I assume that the safety you refer to in your first statement is related to violent crime. Of course you seem to totally ignore the question of safety from accidents related to transportation, which is far more likely to cause death or injury to any given individual than violent crime.
Regarding the likelihood of an increase in ridership leading to a rise in violent crime on mass transit, I'd like to seem some data to support that assumption. Further, even if we assume that violent crime rates did rise with say a 400% increase in mass transit utilization, something I'm not willing to concede is likely but certainly not totally outside the realm of possibility, what is going to matter most to the riders is the per mass-transit user crime rate (which would determine the likelihood of any individual person being the victim of a crime).
Of course it is highly dependent upon where you are, where you are going, and how well designed and operated the mass transit system you are riding is, but I don't see any reason to believe that a blanket statement that mass transit takes longer than commuting in a car. From my own personal experience, having spent three years commuting ever day on a subway to an from work with an occasional trip by car, I can say unequivocally it was much faster by train. What's more it wasn't wasted time. I could read on the train, which I could not safely do in the car. Add to that it was much less stressful.
I think American society could adapt just fine to mass transit. I'm definitely speculating but from the tone of your post, I think it is you yourself who feels you could not adapt to a car-less existence.
Re:As used in Ireland (Score:5, Informative)
then you have never lived in an american city.
Mass transit systems fail in all but the largest of cities. There is a problem. Not enough people spread out over to great of an area. Growing up my school was 20 miles away. The nearest store was 6. When i started working I literally had to drive 50 miles a day 6 days a weekk just back and forth to work. that is no other side stops.
Now I live only 8 miles and 15 minutes from work. However if I wanted to use mass transit my travel would cover 20 miles, and take over an hour to do so. mass transits systems require the majority of people to live in a small space. That isn't the case in America. America is simply to spread out for it to work effectively. Maybe when we double our current population will it make more sense.
Until such a time cars are more efficient for the tens of thousands that travel back and forth going in thousands of different directions at different times.
Simpson Springfield is a nice example. the trolly only goes in circles. that is the case in many cities. Invent a hoverbus, that flies 50 feet off the ground and it might change.
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Well, the planning argument will ONLY hold up if you were somehow able to go back in time and convince them back then to plan the cities better.
It isn't possible to completely tear up the current infrastructure and redo it for mass transit that is actually practical and convenient for the masses.
Two other big arguments against it ever happening, the economy, we'll
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
A guy in a business suit or lady dressed for a real job, isn't gonna ride next to Freddy the freeloader..smelling of urine and last nights cheap wine.
I think bad hygiene alone keeps regular people off mass transit in many cases.
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There really is a solution. Get rid of your cars. (Score:3, Interesting)
hat is the first lesson the homeless learn.
Only some homeless. However some homeless know how useful a car is. I used to know some people who lived in their cars. And having the transportation can make it easier to find and get a job.
Falcon
Re:As used in Ireland (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. Why is everyone so afraid of a user pays system? If I choose not to have a car, why should my taxes subsidize the rest of you??? I do have a car btw, and although I live around 10km from the office, I do around 800km a week of work related travel so the bicycle idea won't work for me. I tried it once and hayfever nearly killed me :(
In the past 15 years we've had some major road upgrades done around Melbourne (Australia) which were funded via the use of tolls. I think it's a great idea. The amount of petrol you save by using the tollways goes a good way towards the cost of the tollways themselves, and you get where you are going faster and more safely. Even better, I use these tollways once or twice a year and so pay next to nothing for them!
My biggest grumble is how we let big trucks trundle down the freeways when there is a perfectly good rail system running parallel to it.
Old news... (Score:4, Informative)
They have been doing this in Toronto with 407ETR for a long long time. Wonder why it just started in US?
Re:Old news... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's been done in the states for at least a decade. Toll tags and such are commonplace in the metro areas, and now there's even talk of turning some of our interstates into toll roads.
I vehemently oppose the idea of toll roads on those "major artery" roads that connect our nation. It's one thing to add a toll road in an urban area where there are plenty of alternate paths, but placing an arbitrary price on traveling from one place to another is essentially restricting the right of travel. Our government should not be in the business of making it more expensive for me to go see my family 100 miles away.
Re:Old news... (Score:4, Interesting)
Various interstates have been toll roads for DECADES. This is nothing new. I-95 is a toll road through Delaware. I-76 across Pennsylvania and I-76/80 in Ohio. I-44 in Oklahoma and I-35 in Kansas.
The reason States do this is so they can maintain their own roads, rather than beg the U.S. for money.
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+1: Gets It
Re:Old news... (Score:4, Informative)
I think the difference is that Toronto's 407 ETR has never had manned toll booths, but was originally built with support for number plate cameras and transponders.
It was the world's first highway to feature this system throughout [wikipedia.org].
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Our government should not be in the business of making it more expensive for me to go see my family 100 miles away.
But I assume that you agree they should make it /possible/ to see your family 100 miles away?
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Our government should not be in the business of making it more expensive for me to go see my family 100 miles away.
But I assume that you agree they should make it /possible/ to see your family 100 miles away?
Thereby making it more expensive for me for you to see your family 100 miles away.
Not if tolls are used in lieu of taxes ;)
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In Israel this has always been the only method. There have never been any toll booths - you drive onto toll roads at full speed, just like any other highway. It's really, really convenient.
This is not an issue of the US being behind in technology and now catching up. It is an issue of the US being ahead in privacy, and now regressing.
In Israel, the company that runs the toll roads has full access to everyone's auto registration data. They also have special police powers to impound your car without trial if
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SH-130 and SH-45 in Austin have had this for a few years, since just after they opened the toll roads. It's nothing new.
It's not likely existing roads will be retrofitted with tolls, though; a lot more people get up in arms when they have to start paying tolls on a road their tax dollars already paid to construct.
In Austin, there were a few places where limited-access-style intersections had already been built where they wanted the toll roads to go (such as SH-45 and Parmer, or Loop 1 and Parmer). In both
Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
The result: a new source of money for highways and bridges badly in need of repair.' You can bet that legislators, mayors, and city councilpersons everywhere will see this as an even-better source of income than red-light cameras. You've been warned."
Why is this a bad thing? If the users of the road have to pay a little extra to maintain the road they're using, I don't have problem with it. If the money is being poured into some politician's slush fund, sure that's a problem, but reasonable use fees are exactly what's called for her. It sure beats the "selective billing" process of red-light cameras.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? -Plate Cloning (Score:5, Insightful)
already being done by kids here [thenewspaper.com]
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Sooner or later, transponders will simply get integrated into license plates, and those will be a lot harder to clone.
Like the tags in passports [cnet.com] have?
Re:Why is this a bad thing? -Plate Cloning (Score:4, Insightful)
This will encourage a new crime, called stealing someone else's legitimate license plate.
And replacing the victim's legitimate license plate with a legitimate-looking fake one, unbeknownst to the victim.
Yes, yes, and then people will start making masks that look like your face and robbing banks with them. And they'll steal some loose hairs from your keyboard at work, Gattaca-style, and plant those at the scene. And they'll replace all your friends and relatives with body-doubles who will lie about your whereabouts on that day.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Informative)
The result: a new source of money for highways and bridges badly in need of repair.' You can bet that legislators, mayors, and city councilpersons everywhere will see this as an even-better source of income than red-light cameras. You've been warned."
Why is this a bad thing? If the users of the road have to pay a little extra to maintain the road they're using, I don't have problem with it. If the money is being poured into some politician's slush fund, sure that's a problem, but reasonable use fees are exactly what's called for her. It sure beats the "selective billing" process of red-light cameras.
Why is it a bad thing.. let me count the ways...
1) typically, (at least in TX), the photo billed to the home address of the registered owner of the car.. carries a $1 service fee, + a 20% penalty (for not having the prepaid transponder) + the toll.. so a 50 cent toll is now $1.60 + check and postage
2) Most of the money doesn't go back to up keep of the road .. it goes to profit for the corporation running the toll system
3) If you piss off some one.. they will simply take a digital picture of your license plate and run through all the toll plazas they can find. And you will have to fight each one individually..If the person has any brains.. he will do it in the same make/model/year as your vehicle and you will never convince the the administrative judge it is not you, unless you in your car happen to trip through a toll plaza within seconds of the miscreant
Don't laugh it is become a big problem in Europe where kids to get back a teachers.. take pic of the teachers license plate and then go speeding through as many speed traps as they can find. Each ticket running a few hundred Euros, unless you live in Finland where the ticket is a percentage of your income.
4) Quite a few of the companies running such systems are run by European companies that take all the profits back home rather than reinvesting in this country.
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Yeah, yeah. They said the same thing about EZpasses, but after ten years time the system is working very effectively from West Virginia all the way to Maine. And it's convenient.
The only point where I agree is point 2. The state should run the system directly, rather then hire a corporate monopoly to do the job. In Maryland they hired a private company to install an "express lane" and the tolls go to the company. I can't figure out why Maryland didn't just build the lane themselves as part of the MDDOT
Re:EZ Pass speeds (Score:4, Interesting)
I was told by a somewhat reliable source who is an anorak about this stuff that they have been tested up to 110mph and still work fine.
Just a little word (Score:5, Insightful)
While I agree with the rest of your post, why is point 4) a bad things ? Shall we now boycott all US company in Europe on the ground that they bring the money back in the US, instead of Europe ? Don't you think it is a rather dumb argument , especially knowing how mostly bad can be protectionism in some case ? Because sooner or later it falls down in a tit-for-tat fight.
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Surely this wouldn't just be a scam for the government to redirect your money into some corporation's balance sheets?
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/24/teens-copying-enemies-license-plates-to-get-revenge-via-speed-c/ [autoblog.com]
http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/04/458.asp [thenewspaper.com]
http://wcbstv.com/politics/congestion.pricing.london.2.597052.html [wcbstv.com]
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Because I'm ALREADY PAYING for those roads. I pay gasoline taxes, I pay income tax. Take a look at all the stupid earmarks on the last 2 bailout/stimulus plans. I bet that would fix plenty of roads.
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This point of view currently makes SOME sense.
Until alternative fuel cars become more common. Just because someone is driving an electric does not mean their car magically causes no wear on the highway. Would YOU want to pay more at the pump in terms of gas taxes to subsidize the roads for those not making use of oil?
That's where gas taxes fail, when not all vehicles are consuming gas. This doesn't excuse the administrators desires to double-dip with bonus information gathering, it simply means they should
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yearly fee based on weight and mileage, in addition to abolishing gas taxes, and I might be in. Mileage is a requirement to make this work, as while I drive a old Civic on a daily basis, I have a 3/4-ton Chevy that I rarely move (except when I need to haul stuff). I don't want to be billed like it's my daily vehicle.
I also don't want anybody monitoring where I'm driving, so no GPS crap. A simple radio odomoter reader will be just fine - possibly with the requirement that as part of renewing my plates ever
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No need for a scan arch. Have your ipass/toll collection device report your mileage for you.
So they could track where you go? A better way to get your mileage is to simply read the odometer. When someone goes down to renew their license plate tags the odometer is read and you're billed for the number of miles driven. Of course this will take longer and people won't know how much they'll owe until it's checked.
Falcon
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Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Because I'm ALREADY PAYING for those roads. I pay gasoline taxes, I pay income tax.
Income tax is insufficient to pay for our Federal spending (defense spending alone has roughly doubled since 2000). The US has a shockingly low gasoline tax by world standards (about 35 cents/gallon). And on top of that the taxes are collected and distributed inefficiently--- the barely-used Interstates in my home state (Vermont, pop ~600,000) are routinely repaved, while the highways in New York State (pop. 20 million+, not to mention traffic from neighboring states) are falling apart. This is inefficient.
Additionally, it's a fairly basic reality that if you underprice a resource it will be overconsumed. This is one of the cornerstones of our economy, but for some reason we have the notion that we shouldn't apply this logic to public resources. I would much rather exchange the inefficient blanket gasoline tax in exchange for a targeted tax that collects revenue from actual road usage, at least for roads that are running near their capacity. This would reduce taxes and make sure the roads are maintained in accordance with their usage.
Take a look at all the stupid earmarks on the last 2 bailout/stimulus plans. I bet that would fix plenty of roads.
Sadly that's exactly what Congress insisted on. It's a stupid and inefficient use of Federal money.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hear hear! Raise the gas tax and forget the tolls and cumbersome data collection and assessment schemes.
What is it about complexity that everyone loves so? Complexity costs money. Complexity gives too many angles for swindlers to pull a swindle. I don't want our traveling taxation to become as complicated as our income taxes are now! All this talk of schemes for taxes based on GPS data, odometer readings, weight, etc. Automatic tolling based on license plate. Then you have to have security measures to stop cheaters from rolling back odometers or switching license plate numbers or such. And the overhead on all these schemes is huge. Then, who knows what next, tax breaks for the elderly or disabled, or as an incentive for businesses to locate plants in the state.
And it's so unnecessary. An energy tax is a reasonably fair way. Can catch the electric vehicles with electricity taxes. It takes more energy to move larger heavier vehicles, and (duh) more energy to travel farther. Why bother trying to weigh everyone or track their travels?
Right now, we're subsidizing highways and driving in a big way. It's a huge boost to status quo trucking companies, auto makers, road construction, oil suppliers. It throws the economy out of whack. It skews our choices away from what is actually least costly to what is artificially the least costly. And now we have a whole food chain that will collapse wrenchingly if we actually started making it bear the costs it incurs. Too big to fail, bah! Subsidies discourage innovation-- necessity is the mother of invention. If it wasn't so incredibly, unsustainably cheap to drive around, we'd have more public transportation, less crowded roads, less suburban sprawl, better connections for pedestrians and cyclists. We'd be closer to viable alternatives, maybe already there. We'd all be wealthier if we weren't wasting so much energy pushing around heavy steel cages with horribly inefficient gasoline engines. And, fewer miles means longer lasting cars. Sucks for the auto makers and oil peddlers, maybe, but they don't deserve special consideration. They can sink or swim like everyone else.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
>>everywhere will see this as an even-better source of income than red-light cameras. You've been warned."
>Why is this a bad thing?
Because "out of sight, out of mind". They'll add a toll to a previuosly toll-free road, live with the brief protest until it dies down and Voila! Instant revenue stream. Next thing you know, the entire legislature will be skinny-dipping in it.
Once they start pulling invisible tolls, you can bet your last dollar (f you have any dollars left), that the now-collected gas taxes will be diverted elsewhere. Flordia legislators pulled this scam years ago with the lottery. They sold it on the basis that the revenues collected would go to education. What they failed to mention was that they'd reduce other monies going to education. Net result, schools in Florida benefited not at all, while the Florida legislature got more dollars to piss away however they wished.
Your government treats you like a giant urinal cake. And if they can do it "out of sight" it's only going to get worse.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Informative)
If the money is being poured into some politician's slush fund, sure that's a problem, but reasonable use fees are exactly what's called for her.
It's always the slush fund. Houston, TX had a "toll road project" that was supposed to end the toll roads 10 years after the beltway was completed. How did they get around it? They put one little "spur" of 1/4 mile off the edge, claimed it was supposed to "eventually" be a mile long, and deliberately left it unfinished so that they can claim the project is "not completed."
Meanwhile the state funding that was SUPPOSED to be going to widening TX-290 in Houston? Oh yeah, that got embezzled to pay for lobbying efforts on the NAFTA superhighway project that nobody wanted.
Point being: it's always the slush fund that the toll road money goes to.
The other thing we have in Houston now? They did away with the posted signage telling you how much the toll is. If you drive round the beltway and you have an "EZPass", you have absolutely no idea how much money you were charged until you get your monthly statement. There are no signs saying what the toll is to get on, No early-warning with "free exits" right before each big pay-plaza, and the only way you're going to find out the toll price is by going through the pay booth and asking the attendant.
And of course there are certain areas (Westpark Tollway) that you're ONLY allowed onto if you have an EZPass. I wound up buying an EZPass just as a defensive measure because of the number of times cops have been caught forcing people over into the exit-only lane onto that toll road since it was built.
Go through those gates without a transponder? Massive fine - and there's no appeal process, no way to get before a judge to say "Here's the situation, I couldn't safely get out of the lane, I got to the first available exit but they've put a toll reader before that exit." It's all a revenue scam, nothing more.
Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
I didn't realize that Texas had the ability to elect the President of the US all by itself.
The problem is... (Score:5, Insightful)
That I already pay taxes to maintain the roads. I pay a federal tax on gasoline, which is supposed to be used to maintain the interstate highway system.
I find it kind of unsettling that after taking my tax dollars to build and maintain their highways, certain states believe they can now charge an extra fee simply because the road passes through their state. If they can send me a bill for driving on a highway built with my tax dollars, perhaps I should be allowed to send them an invoice for reimbursement of the fuel taxes I paid while in their state.
The idea behind having federal funding of roads is that you create a system of roads by which everyone is allowed to travel, free of charge. If individual states want to get into the toll-road business, we're going to end up like we were in the 30's and 40's, where there was no consistency in road quality and signage from one state to the next.
Re:The problem is... (Score:4, Insightful)
hat I already pay taxes to maintain the roads. I pay a federal tax on gasoline, which is supposed to be used to maintain the interstate highway system.
Except the federal gas tax has lost buying power over the decades as the tax has not kept pace with the cost of maintaining highways. The federal highway trust fund is bankrupt. I'd have more sympathy for your position if you were out advocating that the federal gas tax be raised to cover the full cost of driving (and it's not just road maintenance).
And why would you have to pay that (Score:3, Interesting)
If tolls pay for the roads. There are an abundance of reasons why it makes much more sense to pay for roads with tolls.
It would end the massive subsidization of the trucking industry, which is WAY less efficient at transporting goods than rail/intermodal transport. If the truckers had to actually PAY the full cost (and pass it on to their customers) that would internalize this cost. The result would be lower prices AND lower taxes for the average person.
Why SHOULD I have to pay (and I do, the gas taxes only
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh, I am a huge fan of road pricing, insofar it means making the people who use the road pay for it.
There are two arguments against this:
1) Privacy. If they implement this on all roads, the government or whomever owns the road has a nice log of where you've driven, day to day. Has your government ever given any indication that they are trustworthy enough to gain this information?
2) As others have pointed out: this offers even better ways to milk motorists. And don't think people will protest too much if they gradually raise prices, that's what they've done over here. Motorists in the Netherlands already bring in 3 times the yearly road and public transport expenditure (for example: VAT + a special tax on new cars add as much as 66% to the sticker price); the rest is blown on other useless stuff. Once this system is in place, you can bet that prices will go up, a few points over inflation, every single year.
Oh, and they get a free 100% accurate speed trap out of this. They've implemented such a system for just that reason around a few of our cities. At least that old system is anonymous (it turns the picture of your license plate into a "signature", which is compared against the signatures read at the end of the stretch of road being monitored. Only if a speeding violation is detected will it perform an OCR on the plate and send you the ticket. But for road pricing they need proof that you've used the road at the time you are billed for).
About that privacy thing ... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm an old fart. Knowing my car is going to be tracked gives me the willies, just as knowing the NSA is reading all my emails and IMs, listening to all my phone calls, and watching all my web surfing.
But look. It can't be prevented. Cameras are getting to be so small and cheap, and computing power is so ubiquitous, that it won't be long, a decade or two at the most, before 90% of the population has a full time camera as their collar button, broadcasting to a public server and archived for posterity, and every bozo that wants to will be able to see anything desired.
I am serious about this. It cannot be stopped.
But rather than gripe about something that cannot be stopped, I think about the consequences, and I tell you what, I think it will end up in greater freedom. Let's take this to an extreme. Suppose they can issue automatic speeding tickets to every car which passes cameras too quickly. They'll be issuing speeding tickets to half the cars out there. This obviously can't be handled the same as now -- they'd be suspending every driver within days or weeks.
They will have to come up with an alternative, which I guess to be raising speed limits to something reasonable such that much less than 1% of licenses are suspended every year, and speeding will turn into minor revenue sources -- you want to get somewhere faster? Pay a buck or two more, or $5 more, and no points, no fines, no problem.
Or consider the privacy problem. I sure don't like knowing I will be tracked everywhere I go. But consider what happens when everyone is tracked by everyone's cameras. It will apply to **everyone**, including the rich and famous, not just ordinary blokes. The billions of publicly available fully archived webcams will quickly outnumber politically controlled government cameras.
Remember, there will be public broadcasts of billions of webcams, nice high resolution ones, with plenty of archival storage. Want to know who met with your local politician just before that vote change to help a huge contractor? Programs will abound which will search archives for specific individuals or cars, or just go to the politician's and contractor's houses, go back thru the archive til you find them, follow them backwards -- when they disappear off one webcam, there will be dozens or hundreds already picking up the trail.
Just as the gun equalized "might makes right", eliminating the advantage of lots of idle time for sword practice which peasants didn't have, this ubiquitous surveillance will equalize anonymity. Ordinary people don't have much of it now; the rich and powerful do. In a decade or two, they won't have it either.
When there are billions of webcams to choose from for your own idle pleasure or to target your computer search programs on, who would you rather see -- your neighbors who you already see all day, or Donald Trump? The rich and powerful have far more to lose than ordinary folk.
We will *ALL* live in a small town where nobody can hide anything. I relish that thought and think it a damned fine tradeoff for loss of privacy.
Re:Why is this a bad thing? (Score:4, Informative)
Some Roman roads in medieval Europe were heavily tolled during the Dark ages by local lords, the Church and other authorities, making travel prohibitively expensive for all but the elite. This hindrance to trade, along with unsafe conditions for traders, is seen as a reason why the European economy was so stagnant during this period. (Sorry, it's the weekend, I don't feel like citing sources :P)
This can be seen as the logic behind roads being a project funded from the public purse. If everyone has free/libre access to roadways as a result of the taxes they pay, then everyone is free/libre to use them to conduct trade.
Think of it as the Net neutrality issue of the last millenium. ;)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
We already pay fuel taxes, the money from which _should_ be used to fund road repair.
Adding separate billing is absurd and imposes an additional compliance burden on users.
rental cars? (Score:3, Interesting)
seriously.. if I rent a car- I'm going to be back billed later by the agency?
yeah- that's not an issue at all...
Re:rental cars? (Score:4, Interesting)
If you've rented a car, then it's very obviously not an issue for you. You're already agreeing to plead guilty to any traffic ticket the car receives while it is rented to you (e.g., red light camera tickets) and have it charged to your credit card.
Re: (Score:2)
traffic ticket != usage toll
Also, what do you want to bet the rental agency will kindly add their own "toll processing fee?" Say you racked up $10 of tolls while driving their car. Would you be at all surprised if they added a 5-10% processing fee to back-charge you once they get the bill?
On top of all that, is the monthly bill itemized? I'm guessing not, since that would make it easier to dispute items. And if it's not, how can the rental agency possibly differentiate between you accruing a fee and the nex
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Phew. (Score:2)
Makes me glad I only put the required registration tags on my car, and keep my license "plate" in my wallet. Still, if I had mounted it, That's one hell of a camera if it can read that tiny text from a safe distance.
First Canadian! (Score:3, Interesting)
First Canadian to post we have had this in Ontario for years now... called the 407.
It's not a bad technology. However here, there is a crazy charge for the photo portion that basically makes it impractical not to have a transponder. Each time you don't have a transponder and get photoed... the charge is like 6 dollars or something. A monthly transponder is 2 dollars. So I just keep a transponder even though I don't use regularly.
The only advice I would give is to make sure the 'toll' period is reasonable. In the 90s recessions, our government signed the highway away to a private company for a 99 year lease. Most other places in the world, it is common to see 10-20 year lease.
Of course isn't this what the gas tax supposed to be for :) Oh the joys of non-dedicated government taxation.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
dammit... not the one.
No no not the one.
Arlck is the one who was.
I am the one who is to be.
No body listens to scamper. Poor scamper.
...Gas Tax? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't the purpose of the gasoline tax in the United States to account for the wear an tear that your vehicle causes to the roads? If we start implementing tolling on nearly every major highway, we should start to see a reduction or removal of the gasoline tax. No way in hell should we be paying for something twice.
Here in TX we are paying for some roadways 3 times..first with the gas taxes,, then with revenue from sales taxes and now the state is turning them into toll roads..
Its good for the environment (Score:5, Insightful)
Figure that will be one way to sell it. Hello carbon tax.
Yes it is not reasonable to you or me, however there are many who would like nothing more to "punish" people who drive cars, after all only the rich or those who don't care if they are destroying the planet will drive cars. Honestly this is how it will come to pass. We have toll roads that were supposed to expire (ga400) when they paid off, guess what, ain't happened and won't ever happen.
Once a government gets a tax in it will take a change of government to remove it. I seriously doubt it will be republican or democrats that will help us.
Re: (Score:2)
We have toll roads that were supposed to expire (ga400) when they paid off, guess what, ain't happened and won't ever happen.
Roads are never paid off. They require constant, and fairly expensive, upkeep. That's not to say that in your case, your government is not collecting more than the cost of upkeep, but the idea that one builds a road and then it just lies there forever is nonsense. Asphalt roads will disintegrate from sunlight alone, and even reinforced concrete slabs are subject to considerable wear a
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Isn't the purpose of the gasoline tax in the United States to account for the wear an tear that your vehicle causes to the roads?
Yeah, and then the Palins of this world redirect your tax dollars from California or Massachusetts to build roads and bridges to nowhere in their states.
If we start implementing tolling on nearly every major highway, we should start to see a reduction or removal of the gasoline tax.
The gasoline tax doesn't come close to covering the costs the automobile imposes on the nation. Cos
That's too bad (Score:2)
Toll-booth operators taste just like veal.
Don't assume Red Light Cameras are gone yet... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)
Sydney are all automated (Score:2, Interesting)
Almost every toll booth in australia is automated. Just recently, the Sydney harbor bridge become completely automated. The biggest problem is that when you don't have an "E-Tag" on your car, the bill gets sent to your house with a $10 or more Administration Fee... So your $3 toll becomes $13 everytime you drive through
This must be part of the new stimulus package.... (Score:2)
Gee, it's nice to see the government is getting busy creating new jobs.
Re: (Score:2)
ALL roads are toll roads (Score:5, Insightful)
All roads in the U.S. and Canada are toll roads. You pay the toll at the gasoline pump through the ~70 cent per gallon tax. As it should be. If you're going to make use of government-paved roads, it makes sense to pay for that usage. Places with "extra" tolls are typically high-expense areas like tunnels & bridges where the gasoline toll is not enough to cover costs.
Alternatively you could get a horse-and-buggy and pay nothing, like my Amish neighbors do. ;-)
It's not a bad idea. (Score:2)
As
not the solution (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
So you never come down to Illinois, eh?
We've got a bunch of toll roads around the Chicago area, and most of them have made it to "open road tolling" which means that, if you have an IPass, you just keep driving under the detectors, nobody slows down.
If you don't have the IPass, you have to take something that almost looks like an exit ramp and either throw some coins in a machine or give money to an actual human.
The IPass toll rate is about half of the cash rate, I think.
Already in Toronto -- really bad for travellers (Score:3, Interesting)
There's no way to pay manually. Sections that are toll aren't well marked. Cost isn't clearly defined and changes as a function of time and/or traffic density. So when turning in the rental car there's no way to determine the charges for tolls.
Months after the trip I got a bill from the car rental agency: cost of tolls + several taxes + surcharge by the car rental agency + a billing fee.
Can you tell I'm not a fan of this technology?! Car rental agency added costs were more than twice the cost of tolls.
NJ too (Score:2)
New Jersey is considering such a system for the Atlantic City Expressway [nj.com]
Austin's Bad Example (Score:2, Informative)
Back to the middle age (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
There aren't anywhere as many forests in Spain as there used to be in 1600, but mostly a desert? you've got to be kidding! There's a desert near Almeria, but it doesn't account for even close to 10% of the land area. If that's enough for you to qualify the country as a desert, I bet you'd claim that Africa, Asia and North America are mostly deserts too!
Why can't all ETC systems link up with ez-pass? so (Score:2)
Why can't all ETC systems link up with ez-pass? so you don't have to have 2-3 transponders and accounts so you don't have to pay the higher non transponder rate?
I can use my I-pass on all EZ-pass systems and get the lower transponder rates so Why Must I also get a sun-pass, TxTAGnetwork, C-Pass, Cruise card, EXpressToll, Fastrak, Good To Go!, K-Tag, MnPass, PalmettoPass, Pikepass, and Tolltag to use all toll systems in the us.
One item being discussed (Score:2)
Sell the roads! (Score:2)
Problem is, when you have everything automated the only people with money to pay the tolls will be the owners. Of course, maybe that's the point. I mean who wants all that traffic congestion? In fact, who wants all that population?
Another opportunity for private industry (Score:2)
Just look at how well that went with the Big Dig compared to, oh -let's pick something that cost about the same, the Chunnel.
As a Midwesterner, I loath traditional toll roads for the high level of moronicity stopping and going entails. True, these automated systems modify the equation some but I still think our roads are part of the commons. Part of the "change" I would look forward to is a return to _less_ contractor influence and a little more sanity that we all have to pay for the various infrastructur
Hopefully this means the E470 loop can be finished (Score:5, Interesting)
Initially the E470 toll road was envisioned as a loop around the entire Denver metro area, allowing easy access for people in the suburbs to the airport, the Denver tech center south of town, and the interstate roads toward the ski resorts. By bypassing all that traffic around downtown, they would ease congestion significantly, especially during the winter months.
Unfortunately the residents of Golden, an upscale suburb slightly off the beaten path west of Denver, didn't like the idea of the plebians being able to access their town without having to jump through hoops to get there. They torpedoed the completion of the loop to keep the rabble out of their isolated, upscale community. The result of this is that any skiers coming from the heavily populated areas north of Denver are routed through the center of the city on their way to the slopes, causing congestion and traffic misery for both the tourists and residents.
Meanwhile, not content to make up for massively cutting their operating budget by no longer having any toll collectors, thus slashing their payroll and ongoing operating costs to a bare minimum, the governing body of E470 implemented a toll raise to pay for the new automated technology that will save them millions yearly.
Now that they've put people out of work, hopefully greed for the lost revenue in skier tolls they're missing out on every year will drive the owners of E470 to use that extra money to lobby various legislative bodies that will mandate the completion of the loop.
The residents of Golden delayed the rollout of HDTV in Denver for years by blocking the construction of upgraded antennae, until finally it required a federal mandate to push things through. Let's hope that the E470 governing body's lust for capital is enough to trump the isolationists in Golden.
Sometimes the only way to beat nakedly greedy, corrupt elitists is to sic other nakedly greedy, corrupt elitists on them.
Denver resident here. The OP fails to mention (Score:5, Insightful)
The OP fails to mention some things about the C470/NW Parkway here in Denver
It's pretty much the most expensive per-mile toll road in the country. And they keep raising the rates on it every 6 months.
I could save about 5 - 8 minutes out of my 35 min commute if I used it. However, that would cost me $120 per month. $3 for 8 miles of road (each way) in my case. And that's *one* toll booth.
And the reason those 8 miles would save me that much time is that no one uses the thing because of the ever-increasing tolls.
I am being completely serious when I say that at 5pm (rush hour) on the northern 1/4 of the toll road, you would be hard pressed to encounter more than 6 - 7 other cars while on it. Meanwhile, the surface roads that run near it are packed with cars.
And don't get me started about how the toll road always seems to be plowed when it snows while the surface streets aren't.
It's not that I can't afford $120/mo ... I just refuse. It's the principle of the thing. I already pay for roads; it's called paying my taxes. Cut my taxes by $120/mo and I'll gladly pay for that road rather than the ones I'm using now.
Re: (Score:2)
I rarely drive. Why should I subsidize the people who drive 100 miles a day to commute into the city from their faux-rural home?
You seem to believe you will somehow pay less in taxes if this happens. Why, I have no idea. If anything, your taxes will go up to pay for the postage to send out the bills, so that the revenue from the tolls can be maximized.
Plus, why would you think, for one second, that the money from these tolls would be used to pay for road improvements anyway? They say they will, but they alw
Re: (Score:2)
I labor under the daft illusion that the government should rationalize taxation. That is, road taxes should pay for roads while warmongering taxes should foot the bill for bullets. You should stop placidly accepting your government's habit of randomly redistributing your taxes willy-n
Re: (Score:2)
it makes sense to bill people for their annyal road use
Which is exactly what you do by taxing gas.
Re: (Score:2)
Um, I pay for the privilege of riding the train. It works exactly like a toll highway, in fact. Those who use it, pay for it. Now what was your point?
Re: (Score:2)
I didn't suggest for a moment that I don't wish to subsidize the highway system, only that a pay-for-service model makes more sense. However, public education is an interesting issue to ponder. A century ago, many kids left school after the first five or six years to join the workforce. During the Great Depression, there was considerable pressure to keep students in school until Grade 12, since it kept them from competing for scare jobs. Post-war affluence enc
Re: (Score:2)
Or perhaps we could just use tax on fuel...
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Everybody should be paying for roads whether they are driving or not. If you rely on public transportation to get around you are still using the road. Even if you never leave your house or building you are using the road system. All of the goods you purchase are traveling by road.
Some smaller towns are running into the problems of decreased fuel tax revenue as more people buy electric or high fuel efficiency vehicles. A low percentage tax that everybody pays should pay for roads.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So? What do you want, a free lunch? The maintenance of roads cost money.
Re:Calm down, this is a decade old (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Calm down, this is a decade old (Score:5, Informative)
Gas taxes in the US are not high enough to pay the annual costs of the US road system. The rest of the money for maintaining our roads comes from general revenue.