Texas Legislature Considers Open Document Formats 149
An anonymous reader notes that a legislator in Texas has introduced a bill to require open document formats in all state government business. The bill is carefully worded such that only ODF could pass its test as "open." The story is covered by the Fort Worth Star Telegram, which is careful to be even-handed, giving Microsoft's spokesman equal time. A ZDNet blogger notes that the bill, introduced by a Democrat in a state whose politics is dominated by Republicans, faces chances that "...fall somewhere east of slim and west of none."
Isn't there an ISO standard? (Score:1)
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whilst it's always good to see genuinely open formats in use, isn't there already an ISO standard document format? If there is, is it better to use the ISO standard or an open standard?
There are 2 ISO standard document formats (not including ASCII et al). Only one of them is open, and that is the format that this bill recommends, ODF. A "non-open standard" is sort of useless as a standard, and is more trouble than it is worth. The non-open ISO document format standard, MOO-XML, should be avoided.
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How is one more open than the other? (If you are going to say patents--don't bother. Both are patented, and both are available under nearly identical patent convenants).
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Yes, and ODF is one of those ISO standards.
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whilst it's always good to see genuinely open formats in use, isn't there already an ISO standard document format? If there is, is it better to use the ISO standard or an open standard?
ODF is an ISO [desktoplinux.com] standard, as is Microsoft's OOXML [wired.com] format. However ODF is an open standard whereas OOXML is proprietary. As the Star-Telegram [star-telegram.com] article says "If the Constitution was in WordPerfect 5.1 format, it would probably be difficult to read right now", substitute any of MS's formats and it would still be true.
Falcon
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falconwolf wrote:
If the Constitution was in WordPerfect 5.1 format (Score:2)
I'm not sure if it would be that difficult to read a document in the WordPerfect 5.1 format right now since the current version of WordPerfect and both OpenOffice.org and StarOffice will open the file.
It depends on whether the file format was proprietary, and MS's OOXML is proprietary. OO.org can open some MS file formats but it does not display them all correctly.
Falcon
Sweetheart deal from MS very soon (Score:5, Insightful)
And semi-dirty to dirty politicking if that doesn't convince them. Remember Massachusetts.
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And semi-dirty to dirty politicking if that doesn't convince them. Remember Massachusetts.
Hey, Massachusetts has to pay for that health care bill somehow!
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The one where they legally require you to buy your own private insurance and then call it universal healthcare? Yeah, I'm sure that one is costing the state billions.
IT is... (Score:2, Troll)
The one where they legally require you to buy your own private insurance and then call it universal healthcare? Yeah, I'm sure that one is costing the state billions.
It is, because if you cannot afford health insurance, the state picks up the tab. that's the whole key. Massachussetts has the lowest uninsured percentage in the country, by far, but it is expensive to do.
health insurance in Massachussetts (Score:2)
The one where they legally require you to buy your own private insurance and then call it universal healthcare? Yeah, I'm sure that one is costing the state billions.
It is, because if you cannot afford health insurance, the state picks up the tab. that's the whole key.
Except the state doesn't pick up the tab for everyone who can not afford health insurance. A few months ago CNN had special report on health care and part of it was about the Massachusetts system. One person in the report was a DJ for a radi
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Not paying for that is like not paying for someone with nerve damage in their leg based on the assumption that they should have been more careful walking.
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I know.. and most people with diabetes are type II, which is brought about by lifestyle. You're talking about type I diabetes, and I have no problems there. They are a huge minority.. my problem is the huge majority for which they brought about the condition themselves.
"There are an estimated 23.6 million people in the U.S. (7.8% of the population) with diabetes with 17.9 million being diagnosed[2], 90% of whom are type 2."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diabetes_mellitus_type_2 [wikipedia.org]
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I'm currently 25. I was diagnosed as a diabetic when I was 13, shortly after a kidney transplant. Neither of the conditions were results of life style, but both of them require rather expensive medications and constant care.
Make some calls (Score:5, Informative)
If you live in Texas, get involved with your reps to see that this gets passed.
open documents means the government stays accessible to all. There is no reason not to want that in a republic.
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I guess all those times I thought emacs was backing up my documents and source code files, it was actually just mocking what I had written in an ironic tone.
seriously (Score:2)
That's how I always took it. Good to see corroboration. (Might have felt a bit paranoid without it.)
Anyway, parent thinks he's invented something new?
There's precedent for sarcasm marks (sarcasm points), irony marks (irony points), doubt points, certitude points, acclamation points, authority points, indignation points, love points, and percontation points (rhetorical punctation).
I recommend for him a bit of research before he thinks he's invented something and certainly before he commends others to actio
Re: Done (Score:2)
Pointless (Score:1)
It's called a PDF...
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Pointless Document Format ? huh?
Republican's fault. (Score:5, Funny)
Hm. It's the fault of the republicans I guess. Evil conservative types, wanting lock-ins. Definitely a republican problem. If we had more democrats in Texas, we would have more open standards! Just look at California, New York, Washington... look at all those open standards being used by those states! And democrat-liking Hollywood! Hollywood is a huge "open source," open document, non-DRM fan. What we need to do is legislate open formats, that way private companies can't be standards incompliant! That will fix the free market, private enterprise will flourish, etc.
[/sarcasm]
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I'm sorry, but the governor of California is a republican.
Don't pollute the issue at hand with your dumb ass rant.
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An extremely moderate Republican. Sacramento is primarily democrat, and California hasn't been "republican" for a while. The only reason Governor S. became governor of California is former Gov. Gray Davis's impeachment and a disillusionment with the democratic party because of it. CA Congress has 24 democrats and 15 republicans and a moderate to liberal "republican" governor that almost no republican is happy with. I'm more interested in positions, beliefs, stances, agendas, etc, than what party affilia
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As others have said, Arnold is a RINO to most Republicans. (Republican in Name Only)
However, A quick true story will help understand the grayness of Liberal vs Conservative.
A colleague of mine moved from CA. to OK. In CA, he thought he was a conservative. In OK, he discovered he was a liberal who was a little to the right towards being a moderate.
In other words, Conservative/Liberal is in the eyes of the beholder!
OK has a limited legislative session also.
As a Staunch Republican, I use Linux, ODF, release pg
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A ZDNet's blogger notes that the bill, introduced by a Democrat in a state whose politics is dominated by Republicans, faces chances that "...fall somewhere east of slim and west of none."
Whatever the issue (democrat introducing bill or open standards themselves), the ZDNet blogger (and the summary writer) thought it important to blame it on republicans. No, he didn't say "republican's fault." But the implication is clearly there. As for my political issues, legislation of open standards is the least of my political issues :)
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I could be mistaken and it is certainly something to watch for. I have seen many news articles that when referring to misdoings by a Republican always p
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He's blaming it on "a bill with no obvious save-the-children type support introduced by the minority party".
If this was introduced by a Republican in New York, it would have the same problem!
A little on Texas Politcal Structure (Score:2, Interesting)
I recently moved from Washington State to Houston, TX. Things are different here, that's no joke. Some people honestly think of this state as a sovereign country sometimes (and they were for a time... unfortunately). But people are people anywhere you go, and for the most part just want to be left alone down here, free from a government bothering them. This is fairly ing
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As an Illinois resident, I would be supremely happy if my legislature spent less time in session. The growing state debt and budget deficit has been caused by politicians unwilling to make the tough decisions necessary to turn things around.
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What this boils down to, is a State Legislature that is inherently designed to be weak and making change difficult, especially at a state level. In every two year period they are allowed to meet for 140 days (barring a special session being called). Can you imagine your state legislature only meeting for 70 days a year?
Yea, I've posted before about how I wish the US congress was the same and only worked about 120 days. What you left out though was that at first those elected to office had to work for a liv
Betamax over VHS (Score:5, Funny)
Wasn't Betamax the better of the two, and VHS only won because of porn? How does that analogy make any sense?
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Wasn't Betamax the better of the two, and VHS only won because of porn? How does that analogy make any sense?
Allow me. You see, most of the free online video players are available for MS Windows. What's the reason for online video? Porn. That's the only reason why folks use Windows is for porn. Therefore, all of us Windows users are degenerate porno viewers.
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No, betamax is better, but to use the tapes you were charged a licensing fee. Add to that VHS came out with a longer tape shortly before Betamax did.
But yes, that argument makes no sense.
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So what was wrong with the analogy again? ;)
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Wasn't Betamax the better of the two, and VHS only won because of porn?
Betamax's [wikipedia.org] big brother, Betacam [wikipedia.org] was used extensively in professional television production until it was recently supplanted by hard disks.
oblig (Score:2)
"And therefor, you must acquit!"
Let's see Microsoft win this one! (Score:5, Funny)
Go right ahead, Ballmer. You can bribe those oily Europeans until they're shining your car, but I dare you to budge the courageous and independent public officials of Texas! They cannot be bought and will stand tall against oh my god who am I kidding here open document formats are doomed.
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The nice thing is these days you have myriads of these initiatives and all you can achieve with a lot of lobbying is to kill them. Poor old monopolist.
So why not start another one as to watch the chairs flying around...
You after all don't get bribed for playing nice.
Follow Nebraska's lead (Score:2)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123698935539126273.html [wsj.com]
----
Among the reasons for Nebraska's economic strength is a long history of strong executive leadership and an independent legislature. But mainly these factors exist because we have an inquiring public that demands to know how tax dollars are spent. That's called accountability, and it was the inspiration behind my effort to create NebraskaSpending.com, a searchable, public database that discloses every aspect of state government spending. By allowing
I'm sure America has learnt it's lesson ... (Score:2)
They only way for ODF to fail is if big-business buys the result. I'm sure America has learnt over the past few months not to let big business dictate the politics.
Ha ha ha ha.
ODF for publication? (Score:2)
ODF works for publication; so does PDF. (Score:2)
PDF has been suggested in other proposals for publication.
XPS is proprietary.
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XPS is not proprietary. It is currently being finalized by ECMA as Open XPS [ecma-international.org].
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The OOXML-ECMA?
Nuff said.
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No. That would be something totally different and unrelated (other than both being XML based).
The bill author and journalist are both confused (Score:2, Interesting)
Aside from my quibbles that multiple implementations or "uses XML" should not really be part of the definition of an open format, there is not a clear way to interpret the bill as excluding OOXML, the format MS rammed through as an ISO standard to compete with ODF. So if the intent is to support ODF and disallow OOXML, I don't see that this will do it. (The bill as written requires documents to be an open document format, which the bill defines as one that is XML, open, interoperable across platforms and
Re:The bill author and journalist are both confuse (Score:5, Informative)
there is not a clear way to interpret the bill as excluding OOXML, the format MS rammed through as an ISO standard to compete with ODF.
The version of OOXML ratified as a standard doesn't even have one implementation I know of, let alone two on multiple platforms. Also the restrictions and royalties clause and IP/patent clauses would likely be an issue since MS's licensing of their format significantly restricts competitors.
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Open XML is a dead horse.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
The bill is carefully worded such that only ODF could pass its test as "open."
That's favoring one vendor over another.
I totally agree with you there, and that is what I came here to say.
Microsoft Office, ODF, PDF and XHTML would be much better,
By suggesting MS Office, you miss the point of open formats. Suppose the government saves something, and doesn't open it again for 30 years. This happens a lot for archives. It will be tough to impossible to track down the specific version of MS Office so they can open it. They likely won't even know which version to track down. PDF or XHTML, on the other hand, are open formats, and are unlikely to die soon. XHTML has the additional advantage that it is text, and even if 50 years from now, nobody remembers how to render XHTML, they can get the content by reading the file in a text editor.
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While PDF is open, it also allows heavy DRM. I have documentation for some software in PDF format that requires you to login to their servers every DAY just to read the manual.
While most PDFs are open, it is possible that a PDF itself can contain locks.
The bill was not specifically tailored for ODF, but currently ODF can pass, OOXML can not. Read the actual bill proposed before agreeing with the parent, you are agreeing with someone who didn't read it.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
While PDF is open, it also allows heavy DRM.
But that is entirely at the discretion of the person who made the PDF, rather than at the whim of Adobe.
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Favoring ODF is not really favoring one vendor over another, there are several vendors who support ODF.
You could also argue that requiring tenders to be submitted in english is favoring one vendor over another, but the fact is you need to set a standard and one that is openly documented is the only sensible choice.
Anyone can learn english if they want to tender for contracts in an english speaking country, anyone is free to implement ODF into their program, as they are also free to implement PDF or XHTML.
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After all Microsoft supports ODF, they are even in the OASIS Committee.
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XHTML has the additional advantage that it is text, and even if 50 years from now, nobody remembers how to render XHTML, they can get the content by reading the file in a text editor.
Also, don't forget that ODF is really little more than XML files zipped together in a single container. Try unzipping an ODF or ODS file—you will find several XML files for formatting, content, etc in there. Personally, I would prefer XHTML or XML files to PDF, simply because I can use vi to read them, if I had to.
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Loser. You should use Emacs, there's a key combo (Ctrl+ Alt + ~ + \ + O + D + F) to unzip, parse the XML, and display ODF content on screen... why would you ever want to use Vi for reading ODF?
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In what bastardized version of Emacs is there a C-M-~ keybinding by default? Is that one of the many questionable features of XEMACS?
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The bill is carefully worded such that only ODF could pass its test as "open."
That's favoring one vendor over another.
I totally agree with you there, and that is what I came here to say.
I think it depends. Is it really designed to force people to use OpenOffice, or just ODF? I believe that OpenOffice isn't the only program that can read ODF, so there isn't a limit to one vendor. Microsoft can implement ODF.
But even if only ODF passes, was that intentional, or is ODF the only viable office suite format right now? I could imagine someone implementing valid rules for "openness" and it just working out that MSO files don't qualify. Text, HTML, and PDF may be fine under some circumstances
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
The Microsfot answer to ODF, though approved by an ex-standard body (turned MS plaything) is NOT an actual open standard:
- no usable specs
- no reference open implementation
- just one implementation (ms office), and maybe not even that
Which is why it is important to word open document laws in such a way as to filter it out. Requesting an open implementation and at least 2 full implementations from different vendors does the trick nicely, and probably will for a long time.
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It has always been policy of many government bodies that at least two vendors of any government purchases be available for anything it buys. This is precisely why Intel was required to license x86 to AMD. (The U.S. Federal government has such requirements on such things and for Intel to be an appropriate supplier, compatible hardware had to be available from another supplier.) It make perfect sense for other government bodies to require similar measures of its vendors.
And if I understand correctly, there
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Informative)
That's favoring one vendor over another.
Hmm... one vendor? Lets see who supports ODF.
AbiWord, Google Docs, IBM Lotus Symphony, KOffice, NeoOffice, OpenOffice.org, StarOffice, SftMaker Office, Corel WordPerfect Office, Zoho Office.
Of those, which is the one vendor that is being favored?
The specification is also open for others to use in either free or proprietary applications. Since the spec is open and there is open software to access the format, the documents created in it should always have the possibility of being accessed.
The ability to switch to open standards and open source software can also save local and federal governments millions of dollars.
If you haven't been paying attention, local and state governments are having a hard time financially. The economic downturn has reduced their income. I'd much rather my government use open source than raise my property taxes.
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Don't forget MS Office 2007, SP2. They are supposed to be including support for it in the next service pack, that is due out very, very soon.
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How is the parent flamebait mods? It's completely factual, at least from what I've ready about MS Office 2007 SP2.
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Indeed, there is no business reason for Microsoft to shoot that bill down except ideology.
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Indeed, there is no business reason for Microsoft to shoot that bill down except ideology.
Of course there is business reason. .doc or .docx in the other hand, Microsoft is favored.
If the government uses ODF, there is a truly level playing field.
If the government uses
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Doc is just the legacy format, fine for elementary stuff and sufficiently decoded, with no hidden secret left, and docx is a technology dead end, everybody knows that. I think Microsoft is really committed to use odf.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, it is favoring all vendors....over just one. With them picking one, non-proprietary format...then, any document application can be considered and used to read/write.
You said it yourself that MS can operate with ODF, so, it isn't like MS is being locked out here.
As long as they pick one format, that no one company 'owns', then that sounds to me like the way to go for our public documents. And, often times...as the govt. goes,, so does the general public. Much like hardware is becoming commodity, so are office applications (especially spreadsheets and word processors). They should be treated as such.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. I think it's important to realize here that the government isn't mandating OpenOffice usage, just ODF file formats. Nothing prevents Microsoft from integrating ODF support into Office in meaningful ways and remaining competitive with the other players.
They don't want that though. Without lock-in on the MS file formats, they can't keep their customers hog tied to MS Office. It's simple business. I wish politicians would just realize that until they put Microsoft in a position of equal footing, they will always be paying too much for software.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Interesting)
They can keep them tied to Word (it's still the "safe" choice) but they lose their fiat pricing ability.
Anytime their prices get too steep, you roll out a "test" project with some ODF competitors and microsoft cuts your prices by 50%.
Importing to realize.. (Score:2)
"it's important to realize here that the government isn't mandating OpenOffice usage, just ODF file formats"
It's hard to realize that when the coverage outright lies about that being the case.
TFA: "It could also mean that many state workers may see familiar Microsoft products such as Word and Excel replaced with lesser-known competitors on their work computers."
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They don't want that though.
MSOffice 2007 SP2 will add ODF support [microsoft.com].
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ISO ODF is not sufficiently specified to satisfy that. If you had two independent implementations that went by the spec, they would in fact have interoperability problems.
In practice, pretty much all ODF applications don't try to implement ISO ODF. They try to implement OpenOffice ODF. They get the spec for that by looking at what Op
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No, it's favoring several vendors over one. Microsoft Office 2007 is the only program that reliably supports OOXML (and doesn't even support the ISO standard version). Several office suites reliably support ODF. PDF and XHTML are open formats, so those could be easily supported in addition to ODF, but once you add OOXML to that list, you add a Microsoft dependency.
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If a vendor can't, or won't deliver an open format, fuck them. Fairness doesn't require that all vendors succeed, just that they all
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No. it should mandate formats that anyone can use and is open. This way all vendors can use it at no cost. ODF is a good example of an open format.
proprietary formats aren't any good.
By catering to the most popular, you help entrance a monopoly. By having an open document, you help keep the playing field level.
So you want the government to spend more money so it can support proprietary formats? what happens in MS changes? or Adobe? You are screwed.
open format usable by all.
Re:Not acceptable (Score:5, Interesting)
That's favoring one vendor over another.
Ummm...ODF is a vendor? I think not. Microsoft is more than welcome to join the rest of the world and support ODF. How many vendors offer products that support ODF versus how many vendors support Microsoft's proprietary formats? You say Microsoft supports ODF. If I'm not mistaken that's through a third party add-on. But if they support ODF with their products, what's the problem? How is requiring ODF excluding them or favoring any other vendor? Is it because Microsoft would actually have to compete based on performance and price? Oh what a travesty that would be. Microsoft actually having to compete.
Quote from the article:
At a hearing on the bill then, Microsoft national technology officer Stuart McKee described it as anti-competitive and warned that it could be the equivalent of the state "picking Betamax when everyone else goes with VHS."
How can using a format that is free and unencumbered, that anyone can implement and is implemented in a number of different products "anti-competitive"?
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Quote from the article:
At a hearing on the bill then, Microsoft national technology officer Stuart McKee described it as anti-competitive and warned that it could be the equivalent of the state "picking Betamax when everyone else goes with VHS."
That's seriously from TFA? While the analogy of choosing one video cassette format over another may be apt, I think they have that reversed. Betamax would more closely resemble Microsoft's formats than it would ODF. If memory serves me correctly, you could only get Betamax from Sony, and they didn't license it out for 3rd parties to produce equipment for. VHS was licensed far and wide to anyone with sufficient funds, and if you had to pick one or the other as an ODF analog, VHS would be it.
BetaMax (Score:2)
If memory serves me correctly, you could only get Betamax from Sony, and they didn't license it out for 3rd parties to produce equipment for.
Your memory is wrong then. Besides Sony, other companies offered BetaMax [wikipedia.org] video recorders.
Falcon
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WTF? Is McKee so confused that he messed up the analogy? Is he trying to head off the most apt analogy to choosing ODF over MSO formats? Clearly MSO:ODF::Betamax:VHS.
If the legislators McKee was talking to couldn't understand this, they have no business bei
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The bill is carefully worded such that only ODF could pass its test as "open."
That's favoring one vendor over another.
First, while the summary makes the claim only ODF could pass, that's doesn't seem to be true if you actually read it. Second, even if it did, that's favoring a format, not a vendor.
What the government should be doing is mandating a variety of formats based on the preferences of the public.
No, they should be establishing criteria for formats that don't inhibit innovation, but do ensure the benefits of open formats.
Microsoft Office, ODF, PDF and XHTML would be much better, and it wouldn't be that hard for the government to support all of those.
ODF and XHTML both meet the criteria listed in the bill. PDF is a publishing format, not an interchange format for editable documents and does not apply in this case. MSOffice formats don't meet the crite
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Who is the vendor for ODF? OpenOffice? KOffice? NeoOffice?
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That's favoring one vendor over another.
No. No it's not. Any vendor can, and several do support the format. That's the point of an open format ! If it were limited to one vendor, it wouldn't be an open format!!
For a while, there was only one vendor refusing to consider supporting ODF. After all, an open format would put a serious crimp in that vendor's plans for world domination through inescapable lock-in. However, even that vendor has finally announced plans to support ODF in future versions of their software (support is already availabl
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Saying Microsoft Office supports XHTML output is like saying that "dousing with petrol and throwing on a match" can be used to light the candles on a birthday cake.
Strictly true, but please don't let anyone do it.
[maybe the latest iteration is different, but allow me to apply a deal of scepticism]
The best line.. (Score:5, Funny)
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We've learned from the past there are 2 ways to lock-in an open standard/format, of which Internet Explorer is the perfect example: stagnation and implementation-bugs.
Re:Lock-in for an open format? (Score:5, Funny)
George W Busch was the best President we ever done had, a good god fearing Christian man. God bless his soul
Re:Lock-in for an open format? (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm not ever really come across evidence one way or another on this type issue.
If anything, I'd say that BOTH parties, in general, vote towards proprietary solutions, since they both are so heavily bought/rented by corporate interests.
Re:Lock-in for an open format? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, Republicans hate democrats and vote against them regardless of the merits of the bill.
Re:Lock-in for an open format? (Score:5, Insightful)
And vice versa.
Re:Lock-in for an open format? (Score:4, Insightful)
So far the only difference I can really see is:
1. One group likes to cut taxes and spend
2. One group likes to raise taxes and spend
Frankly, I'd just like one that went for lower govt. intrusion, and smaller govt. If they did that, the need to tax would naturally go down.
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I think the "Communist" angle is what they are referring to. If something doesn't cost money the first person to yell, "its communistic!" wins the Republican vote. But you are absolutely correct. They are BOTH bought and paid for.
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Thanks for pointing out just how Yankee the Bush family is. Though, I think your beating a dead armadillo. They've named highways and are in the process of naming libraries in each other's honor. We'll never get rid of the belief they were from the south, let alone Texas.
Re:You can just imagine... (Score:5, Funny)
And a glint in the sky to the northwest as the Ballmer shagadellic jet wings its way south, a fresh load of office chairs fixed to the hard points and Ride of the Valkyries blasting out of the built-in Big Zune sound system.
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Does someone want to tell me what's wrong with plain text?
No graphics for one. Do you really think the state doesn't make any documents that include graphs or maps or charts? Aside from that, it's nice to be able to do some formatting, you know like including page numbers on longer documents and cross references that you don't have to spend hours updating every time you add a page to the middle of a document. Then there's the issue of color. It's awfully nice to be able to add some large, red text and a hazard symbol when said document is providing important infor
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99BottlesOfBeerInMyF wrote and included with a post: