Craigslist Fires Back Over Adult Services Accusations 258
Craigslist has fired back at South Carolina Attorney General Henry McMaster in an open letter defending the company's policies and procedures surrounding the much debated "adult services." Stating not only the measures that have been taken to minimize illegal behavior, CEO Jim Buckmaster suggests that Craigslist is doing much better at minimizing questionable ads than other major competitors like Yahoo!, Google, and others. "Mr McMaster, I strongly recommend you reconsider and retract your remarks, and positively affirm that you have no intention of launching criminal investigations aimed at any of these upstanding companies, because in truth none of them are deserving of such treatment. [...] We're willing to accept our share of criticism, but wrongfully accusing craigslist of criminal misconduct is simply beyond the pale. We would very much appreciate an apology at your very earliest convenience. As I'm sure would all of the other fine companies whose executives you've called out as criminals."
The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem with politicians is, well, that they exist as a profession.
Instead of having a dedicated, small group of individuals in charge of everything (leading to ridiculous situations like this, where they posture for the electorate), why not have anyone be as involved in government as they wish? [metagovernment.org]
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Because part of a government's responsibility is to protect those who can't protect themselves, and to prevent a tyranny of the majority.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
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Well, according to the founders, it's better than a tyrannity of the majority, so...no, fuck it, I can't figure out what those old coots were thinking either.
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Given a choice, I'd go with the tyranny of the majority, rather than the tyranny of the minority. The minority has almost always ruled, historically. The concept of royalty, and the hocus pocus of religion were both designed for the purpose of enforcing minority rule. The majority may not be "good", but it is certainly less "evil".
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Interesting)
Spoken like a true member of the majority, who doesn't know what its like to be surrounded by people who will discriminate againt you at any chance.
I'm a non-christian living where there's a church on virtually every block. Don't talk to me about 'religion' and 'minority rule'
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Spoken like a true malcontent
Ah, weasel words. "Malcontent" basically equals "he who does not agree with me."
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Tell me - do these Christians torture you to make you see their way?
Yes.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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Yeah...there's another US meme I've never understood. "Getting nothing done is good for you!" Whatever.
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Because part of a government's responsibility is to protect those who can't protect themselves, and to prevent a tyranny of the majority.
How can this be done when politicians will do and say whatever to get the most votes thus allowing tyranny of the majority?
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And human rights. Good to know that fucks like you couldn't sway judges and politicians during the 60s in regards to the "colored problem".
Those uppity black folk sure did show whitey a thing or two didn't they? What special interest group got interracial marriage approved? I sure remember the majority against it, seems like a "special interest" held up HUMAN FUCKING RIGHTS nicely.
Go back to your Fox New talk points fuckface.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
I was arguing that for some reason, the US federal govt. is not enforcing one of its few actual constitutional powers by not securing our border. They are not regulating immigration nor enforcing the immigration laws, and were actually trying against the majority of what the US citizenry wanted, by trying to give illegal immigrants amnesty under which rules, even more of the families could come over here...thus overloading social services, schools and ER rooms more than they already are.
Civil rights have nothing to do with trying to enforce laws regulating immigrations and proper protocol to follow to become a US citizen.
Nice strawman.
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REALITY is the two wolves still being better armed.
Sorry, but the trope that if everybody just armed themselves to the teeth we'd somehow be safer and better able to protect ourselves from bullies and tyrants completely falls apart when you consider that the bullies and tyrants get to be armed to the teeth too, plus there are more of them, and they are usually bigger and more dangerous.
If you really believe that unless you have a gun you are in terrible danger of life and limb, that doesn't make you a heroi
republic (Score:2)
A republic tries to protect the minority from mob rule. While the democratic representation delays mob rule but gives the majority power. Tyranny of the majority is the preferable bias.
Naturally, ANY system can be hacked. Maintenance is the only real protection one can have (detect and prevent or clean up problems.) The majority is poor at maintenance and the better the society does the more they slack off.
Despotism is where all governments end up. It doesn't really matter what form of government, its how y
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In England we have politicians to protect us from the tyranny of the majority, and the civil servants to protect us from the politicians. Try watching Yes Minister [imdb.com], you won't regret it.
Phillip.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
With the ridiculous idea that everybody is going to reach a consensus out of good will and love for their fellow man.
Good luck with that.
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That only works in the small scale. AFAIK the only places it's been successful in all of history are religious communes. It's ironic that the only place communism works is in religious communities.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Its not really ironic, its just one of the few places where there are groups of people with the exact same mindset and who have dedicated their lives to the same exact thing.
Not surprising then that they reach similar consensus about various issues, as they don't really think for themselves, they just interpret whatever religious text they use and give it their best shot.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd say it's more to do with fear. Keep people afraid and they'll adhere to some text's words. It's not that people are born believing in god and wanting to do good in "his" name, it's that they are brainwashed into fearing an invisible man who watches everything you do.
It's essentially the same as normal society, except in the society at large you can fall on two sides of the fence: those that fear the law enough not to commit a crime, and those that don't. Replace law with god and you've got a religious commune.
So no, they don't govern via "meta governance", it's merely fear of doing the "wrong" thing according to their texts. Which really means people don't want to go against a central figure who interprets their text for them.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
To judge from the history of mankind, we shall be compelled to conclude that the fiery and destructive passions of war reign in the human breast with much more powerful sway than the mild and beneficent sentiments of peace; and that to model our political systems upon speculations of lasting tranquility would be to calculate on the weaker springs of human character
- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 34, January 4, 1788
Sorry, but I have to agree with wjousts. The belief that:
1.) Everyone will reach a consensus out of good will,
2.) That an unfettered "majority rules" system will not oppress the minority,
3.) That mankind is not selfish,
Is somewhat delusional.
Unfettered Democracy is tyrannical by it's very nature. Which is why our Founding Father's discarded that notion.
I will not say our current system of government is the best, but is closer towards that goal than 51% of the majority telling the remaining 49% what to do.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Another poster has said this before, but unfettered democracy is just two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner.
Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Funny)
It's not just that. As world's second oldest profession, they have a lot in common with the oldest profession. Politicians and whores go together like, well, like Spitzer and Dupré!
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:5, Insightful)
Because then we'd get the exact same system, where those who thirst for political power get it?
The only difference is the routes used to acquire the power (or prestige, or whatever you want to call it).
True political power in an elected government doesn't come from having people vote for you, by the way. It comes from shaping what the people want in their elected officials, and what they vote on.
In the "open source government" model, you'll have informal power structures where those who want to be in charge, and have the tools necessary to get there, will rise to positions of power and asymmetrical influence.
Government, and administration of government, is much different than open-source software. It's a lot more expansive, and the rewards for gaming the system are far, far greater than with OSS.
I believe 100% that government should be open (in the sense it should be 100% transparent). I do not believe it should be open in terms of access to power... that way lies anarchy and abuse.
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Re:The problem with politicians (Score:4, Insightful)
Me Thinks . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Me Thinks . . . (Score:5, Funny)
Important fact about McMaster (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Important fact about McMaster (Score:5, Insightful)
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Especially when that free service is servicing the oldest profession; you know, the one that isn't going to go away no matter how illegal you make it.
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Politics?
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Good for them. (Score:5, Insightful)
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That being said, craiglist is just inches from openly encouraging activities which happen to be illegal where I live (CA) and I take issue with them taking the high and mighty road while comparing themselves with companies that aren't doing anything comparable.
I am a Man, seeking a Blow Job. Will pay. Must use discrete words like "Roses" and "Generous" while setting this up online. [yahoo.com]
Call it a "hunch"... (Score:5, Funny)
Like I said, it's just a hunch.
Re:Call it a "hunch"... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Why did craigslist have an "erotic services" section in the first place? To keep the pros from advertising under the dating and other inappropriate categories. Apparently McMaster would prefer all the pros call themselves "masseuses" and drive all the legitimate, trained massage practi
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Keep your fingers crossed and he may turn out to be the one posting the ad.
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Probably so, and he is just upset his last hooker had a penis.
Caveat emptor McMaster, you can't blame Craigslist for that.
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Allegedly. [amazon.com]
Re:Call it a "hunch"... (Score:5, Funny)
For example, I have a "hunch" that you are a complete moron. I don't "know" you are, but my gut tells me you are.
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It is a fact that you have a hunch... :-P
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Along the same lines, "it is believed to" and "some people say" as seen on Faux.
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You'd best read your linked Wikipedia article. A hunch or offer of wager would quite clearly be statement of opinion.
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On top of the point that GP points out quite clearly that he's guessing, we're dealing with a public figure. So it's only libellous if it's not true.
Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves... (Score:5, Interesting)
... when they refused to grow a pair and claim First Amendment protection, not to mention the safe-harbor provision of the CDA. Paternalistic, moralizing governors and DAs have no Constitutional basis to object to anything Craigslist was doing, and the company should have told them to STFU and GBTW.
But instead they tried to "negotiate," "compromise," and otherwise find a middle ground with religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists.
Yeah. That always works. Because those sorts of people always go away and leave you in peace once you give in to their demands. <rolleyes>
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
... when they refused to grow a pair and claim First Amendment protection, not to mention the safe-harbor provision of the CDA. Paternalistic, moralizing governors and DAs have no Constitutional basis to object to anything Craigslist was doing, and the company should have told them to STFU and GBTW.
But instead they tried to "negotiate," "compromise," and otherwise find a middle ground with religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists.
Yeah. That always works. Because those sorts of people always go away and leave you in peace once you give in to their demands. <rolleyes>
Ah. So, you're calling Craigslist out for trying to be civil. Good man! We need more people flying right off the deep end without any sense of negotiation. We also need more stereotyping, darnit, because without that, we might be seen as a serious culture! We have to preserve our l33t, underground status as overreacting outsiders whom nobody should try to understand because we get in huge screaming fits over what the other 90% of the planet just doesn't give a rat's ass about!
Shame on you, Craigslist! Shame on you for trying to be civil! Next time somebody looks at you funny, break his/her nose to restore the balance!
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Interesting)
To me, it sounds like you're advocating reasoning with people that may well be unreasonable. Embarking on that is like arguing with pigs.
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
By attempting to reason with unreasonable people and failing, you can more easily demonstrate to the rest of the world that they're unreasonable.
This is handy when you're dealing with, say, an elected official.
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By attempting to reason with unreasonable people and failing by talking to unreasonable people about being reasonable to otherwise reasonable people who are behaving unreasonably about a reasonable situation, you provide - hang on my head fell off...
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of it may also be that people who have lived for so long fighting a particular cause end up being more attached to the fight than the cause itself, and as soon as it looks like their way of life is threatened, they try to do things which encourage the fight to continue.
In this case, however, I feel it's a much baser motivation. Like a shark smelling blood, this guy decided he could have a little PR feeding frenzy to fuel his gubernatorial run. Silly AG, don't you know that a well-educated populace would never fall for such a thing?
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Re:Well-Educated Populace? (Score:3, Insightful)
Where is this mythical well-educated populace? The average person seems to be deeply ignorant, uninterested in anything remotely political most of the time, and regularly falls for the outright lies made by many politicians when they are trying to get elected, but isn't motivated enough to call them on it after they win and fail to follow through.
The average person is incredibly stupid and uneducated. Quite frankly, any system that relies on ignorant, uneducated people electing politicians based on their un
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Silly AG, don't you know that a well-educated populace would never fall for such a thing?
Lucky for this guy that he's running in South Carolina then, eh?
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They elected, and then re-elected Bush. Now, what is it you were saying?
Bush was elected and re-elected by the electoral college, and the populace is not educated. What was it you were saying?
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Yeah! And they elected Obama, too!
(stupid populace.)
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Actually, some people voted for Obama multiple times. (Paid by ACORN.) It's a fact that one man registered to vote over 72 times because ACORN wouldn't take 'no' for an answer. I'd post a link, but you can google as easily as I can.
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Technically, they only elected him once.
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They elected, and then re-elected Bush. Now, what is it you were saying?
Well, Bush had the advantage of being consistent, even if his policies were disturbing. Kerry on the other hand appeared lost in trying to make everyone happy, but making few happy. People generally vote for someone who is firm in where they are going, than someone who isn't. You generally expect politicians to break promises, but when the politician isn't sure what is being promised, then you have real issues.
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If only a) I had mod points and b) you hadn't posted as AC...
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Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:4, Insightful)
The sign of a good compromise is when both sides are unhappy. Just because you have the right to free speech, it doesn't always mean it is in your best interests to use it all the time. People are complaining about something even though it is in your rights you can always choose to back down too. Or are you the guy who never lets some one in front of you when the lanes are merging in the road.
Putting your self fully in the firing line. Espectially with "religiously-motivated censors and nanny-statists" is always a big fight. If they see that you can at least meet them half way they tend to back off a lot, so they can focus on the next big evil. Sure you not in the clear there will be some point where you need to draw the line. However to keep things running smooth it is easier to compromise.
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Craigslist has the support of the people. Why wouldn't they? It's free, has no ads, and always works as promised. There are no ulterior motives, Craig isn't looking to get wealthy. The government shutting down or censoring Craigslist would be the fast path to a miniature revolt. I don't see any elected official actually doing anything to it.
Besides, it's not like Craigs list has given up its first amendment rights. If they ever wanted to, they could use them in a court of law. My guess is they just wanted t
Re:Craigslist brought all this crap on themselves. (Score:4, Funny)
Craigslist has the support of the people. Why wouldn't they? It's free, has no ads, and always works as promised.
If it really had no ads, I don't think that could be described as "working as promised"... ;-P
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When you start treating politicians like there's nothing they can do to you, they quickly remind you that you're wrong.
They found their middle ground, and now they're pushing back against the smaller group who didn't sign off on the compromise. It's called picking your battles. This was a wise moev for craigslist both legally and for PR - or hadn't you notice that they were getting a bad name from this one section of their site?
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There's no point in arguing with -- much less negotiating or compromising with -- someone whose objection to your conduct is based on religious or moral grounds. They're not just going to give up because you tried to meet them in the middle; they're just going to wait until the time is right and then finish you off.
Mottos (Score:2)
Good for them.
Sue'im for slander (Score:5, Interesting)
If he wrote it down, sue him for libel, too. It's pretty obvious that saying your business is a criminal enterprise that endangers its customers' lives would be damaging to your business, and there seems to be plenty of evidence showing that it is better run than many unmentioned competitors.
Wrong Approach (Score:2)
Craig's List Alternatives (Score:5, Funny)
So what are some other sites that the AG should try to take down for prostitution?
Purely for sake of argument of course. cough cough
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What about the Yellow Pages?? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Exactly! Just because the "escorts" supposedly only provide conversation and arm candy doesn't mean that's how it actually goes down; I'd bet that at least 90% of all "escorts" are prostitutes.
Re:What about the Yellow Pages?? (Score:4, Funny)
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Hah hah. That's cute. Talgrath thinks 10% of escorts just talk and go to parties with you.
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You'd be betting correctly; however, it's also true that the greater part of 90% of business those escorts (the ones that are hooking) get doesn't involve sex. It's surprising, but guys don't seem to take what's right there for them; they'll pay a couple hundred bucks just to have a date to take out (are you THAT lame? Go to the party alone and maybe you'll pick up a girl!), and then go home and just chat for a while, and send her off at the end of the night. And yet, if they wanted to, they've already t
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Any actual data to back that up?
The problem with escorts-as-paid-companions is that if you *can* afford to shell out whatever these girls get for an evening on the town (4 hours?) -- say $1000 -- you want high class. Someone with at least a college education (a real one, not some BS community college degree in dental assisting), who can dress and carry herself in high class social situations without looking like a, well, a whore.
The pool of talent for this has to be vanishingly small (although perhaps larg
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Sometimes I do wonder, though (Score:4, Interesting)
I know you're probably saying that as a hyperbole, but sometimes I do kinda wonder.
Way I see it, any working democracy nowadays has the politicians and some non-elected body to fix the politicians' deliberate self-promoting screw-ups. In some countries (e.g., the USA) it's the judges. In some (e.g., the UK) there are some non-elected lords who get to say "that's stupid and unconstitutional, screw that."
Seriously, you'd expect the aristocracy to be the self-serving self-centered barstards, and the politicians to represent the common man. But the way it seems to work entirely too often is that the politicians pull some populist stunt as a law, and then keep their fingers crossed that the non-elected guys have the balls to strike it down. I'm thinking just of the slew of recent "think of the children" laws (saving them even from non-threats like video games) that seem to crop up everywhere before elections.
Except sometimes the non-elected guys don't intervene, or nobody challenges it all the way to the apropriate level to strike it down, and the rest of the country is saddled with the stupidity its politicians wrought. And even in the best case scenario, often it can take several years before its escalated to the point where it can be removed.
Now I'm not entirely deluded. I know how totalitarian regimes historically were worse, and why some people shed blood to get, say, the Magna Carta signed by the king.
But I still wonder. It seems to me like at the very least for each two evils we avoided via democracy, we introduce a new one _because_ of the way modern democracies work.
I'm not sure what a better system would look like, but sometimes I wish someone would invent it already.
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get your fucking priorities straight you worthless politician.
He has his priorities straight from his point of view. They are as follows:
1. Get elected.
2. Get re-elected.
Tax revenues are down... (Score:2)
Any point in suing him? (Score:2)
They probably have a case for slander.
Nicely written (Score:2)
But I think it would have been better had he left out things like the "NSFW" acronym, the "bold" quotes (*sure*) and the ??? at the end of a couple of questions. I hate nothing more then those annoying emails that come from a coworker asking "Where are the files you just showed me two minutes ago!?? I can't find them?????"
I mean, like OMG, are we *really sure* that the target audience knows what these very web based conventions are and mean????
Craigslist *does* ban (Score:2, Insightful)
Ads for firearms.
AG Henry McMaster looking for a scapegoat (Score:3)
McMaster responds... (Score:3, Interesting)
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Toronto seem fine, and it's foreign (;-))
--dave
The intranets are outside of the US? (Score:2)
Who knew?
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The whole point of Craigslist is that anyone can just post an ad.. You know, free and open access..
So the state of the civility of advertisements on Craigslist is a measure of the state of the civility of the people who post there, and no measure of Craigslist itself.
Do you arrest the principal of a university when a student streaks naked at a intramural football game not played on campus?
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Section 230 [cdt.org]
Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or like prosecuting the manufacturer of the handgun that ... oh wait. Never mind.
TPB (Score:2)
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Are they helping people communicate or are they publishing someone else's statements? Communication is generally from one person/group to another. Publishing is broadcasting to anyone who cares to listen. It seems to me there is a difference. If I swear on the phone and a little kid hears it, that's my fault. If I swear on live TV and a bunch of kids hear it, the network would be partially responsible.
(I am, obviously, not saying that swearing is/should be illegal, just using it as a convenient example
Re:Craigslist's standard of non-culpability... (Score:4, Interesting)
Interesting. Last night Jim Buckmaster was talking on NPR about the case, and complaining that everything in the Internet, and particularly Craigslist, is held at a much higher standard than, for example, the car industry. If cars kill 45000 people a year, why are car makers allowed to make cars that can two twice as fast as the speed limit? Asking CL to go so far beyond their duty is, to say the least, unfair.