MIT Electric Car May Outperform Rival Gas Models 457
alphadogg writes "Inside a plain-looking garage on the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's campus, undergraduate Radu Gogoana and his team of fellow students are working on a project that could rival what major automobile manufacturers are doing. The team's goal is to build an all-electric car with similar performance capabilities of gasoline-only counterparts, which includes a top speed of about 161 kph, a family sedan capacity, a range of about 320 kilometers and the ability to recharge in about 10 minutes. They hope to complete the project, which they chronicle on their blog, by the third quarter of 2010. Each member of MIT's Electric Vehicle Team works almost 100 hours a week on the project they call elEVen. 'Right now the thing that differentiates us is that we're exploring rapid recharge,' Gogoana said during an interview. He said that many of today's electric vehicles take between two to 12 hours to recharge and he doesn't know of any commercially available, rapidly recharging vehicles."
Outperform? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Outperform? (Score:5, Funny)
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No not really. A 5-seat Lupo 3L gets 88mpg on the highway. The new VW 2-seater arriving after Christmas gets 250mpg on the highway.
Show me an electric car that can exceed that? It doesn't exist. In fact the best EV ever made (GM EV1) is no better than a Prius (~50mpg) according to greenercars.org and falls short of an Insight (66mpg).
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No not really. A 5-seat Lupo 3L gets 88mpg on the highway. The new VW 2-seater arriving after Christmas gets 250mpg on the highway.
Show me an electric car that can exceed that? It doesn't exist. In fact the best EV ever made (GM EV1) is no better than a Prius (~50mpg) according to greenercars.org and falls short of an Insight (66mpg).
You must be from Europe. Here across the pond, we get excited about 32 mpg. Silly, isn't it.
New technology (Score:3, Interesting)
The summary indicated it could rival what other manufacturers are doing in the field, not rival a combustion vehicle. P
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No not really. A 5-seat Lupo 3L gets 88mpg on the highway. The new VW 2-seater arriving after Christmas gets 250mpg on the highway.
Ugh. Time for another round of, "Lies, Damned Lies, and Miles-Per-Gallon". First, the Lupo 3L
1) "Comparing different drivecycles": The Lupo 3L is measured on the NEDC, not the US06 and FTP drivecycles we're used to. European mileages for the same vehicle are generally about 15% higher than US combined mileages.
2) "Comparing non-equivalent vehicles": The Lupo 3L is a four seat
Re:Outperform? (Score:5, Informative)
Dear Anonymous coward #1 and #2:
It's not a division by zero error, because electric cars are not perpetual motion machines. When the EPA or similar organizations compare EVs to regular cars, the electricity used by the car during the efficiency test is converted to the equivalent gallons of gasoline burned, and the EV is given an "MPG" rating. Therefore no #DIV0 error.
Bottom Line: ACEEE.org found the GM EV1 is no better than a ~50mpg Prius or Civic.
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Unless the electricity is coming from wind or solar power (or nuclear if you forget about waste storage), in which case the EV1 is far superior as far as "MPG" goes.
Re:Outperform? (Score:4, Insightful)
But with EVs there's still the benefits of:
* Quiet Cars
* Less pollution localized around vehicles (i.e. less of that highway diesel marinade)
* Lower maintenance cars - rotate the tires & change the wiper fluid
* Less points of failure compared to a combustion engine
* Lighter Weight = Less Impact/Damage on roads
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Re:Outperform? (Score:4, Insightful)
BTW, your a jerk.
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Huh?
33.6kWh is the energy potential of gasoline. That it is impossible to perfectly convert 100% of the chemical energy into kinetic energy is meaningless. It is just as impossible for an electric motor to turn 100% of 33.6kWh of electrical energy into kinetic energy.
To compare the efficiency of an EV to the efficiency of a gas powered car, you compare the amount of kinetic energy it can squeeze out of 33.6kWh. For gasoline engines this is done in miles per gallon. The electrical equivalent of a gallon
Re:Outperform? (Score:4, Informative)
Not much, only about 7% [wikipedia.org].
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Ooh, *another* round of "Lies, Damned Lies, and Miles Per Gallon"! (see further down for the first installment this thread).
When a manufacturer cites an efficiency figure for an engine, that is at a single specific torque and RPM condition with no powertrain losses. In the real world, where torque and RPM are often far from the optimal band and where powertrain losses can be significant, modern gasoline vehicles average about 20% tank-to-wheels efficiency and modern diesels 25%.
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>>>About the two-seater: Some of us want the ability to carry more than two (or three in extreme circumstances) people
That's fine. Keep your current SUV or whatever for those 1% of trips that need that capacity, and use the 250mpg two-seater during your daily trips.
Alternatively you could take two separate cars. In those few rare times (virtually never) I don't have enough room in my two-seater Insight, we just take two cars. The overall MPG average in that case is still 35mpg... still better th
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>>>How about a [kg-X / km], where X is any desired pollutant that you care to measure?
I already referred you to greenercars.org which does exactly that. You can order their annual published report and read a pollution break-down for all current model cars, and not just at the car, but from oil-well-to-destruction.
You can also look to the EPA which also measures the grams per mile of every model car, and then rates them LEV (low emission vehicle), ULEV, or SULEV. Hybrid cars are SULEV. Electric c
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So true.
And there's so much shit that will be added that will cut the car's performance and efficiency between when they "finish" it and when it's something you can drive off the lot.
The ONLY thing different about this car is the rapid charging battery. Nothing special, really.
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Indeed. I'm getting really tired of reading about prototypes with amazing mileage that:
1. Will never pass a crash test.
2. Don't have seat belts / airbags
3. Have no radio, AC, or other features.
4. Can't hold more than one or two people.
I've owned these amazing machines for years. They're called motorcycles.
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Yep, my RX8 could hit 150mph (240 kph) easily. 161 kph (100mph) is hardly outperforming. I realize that most people don't generally drive that fast, but if we are going to compare specs, we should be able to hit the same speeds even if they are dangerous.
Oh, and it should cost roughly the same (~$30k) for that performance. ;)
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That's mainly why I traded it for an MX5. ;) I get 35+ with that, but it can still top 100mph easily, so the argument still stands.
I did love that rotary even though the MPG sucked.
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I don't see anything in the summary that says it will outperform gasoline cars. It does say that it will recharge in ten minutes, which is certainly outperforming other electric vehicles.
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Hard to say what similar performance capability would be. I mean, they could compare it to my '70 Impala with 460 ci engine; 9 MPG, top speed past 140 MPH, and has trunk big enough for 14 full size suit cases or a dead horse (MotorTrend review quote). Or are they comparing it to my 2002 Chevy Tracker; 29 MPG, top speed 100 MPH and an carry 5 suitcases?
Re:Outperform? (Score:5, Insightful)
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As a post-script. I'll buy that a typical automobile gets only 30% efficiency in burning gasoline, and that a typical range of a standard automobile is around 400 miles, so you can cut down on a really efficient electric automobile to roughly 100 kilowatt-hours of energy (there still is rolling and air resistance in electric vehicles). That cuts down the power circuit to a much more manageable 600 kilowatt connection. I've dealt with power on that level, and it isn't something you want to casually be sho
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Yes, who would build recharge stations that are expensive and potentially dangerous. It isn't like people have made a fortune from storing volatile fuel in giant tanks where any person with a pulse can dispense it.
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What's preposterous about 288KVA of load in a commercial/industrial setting like the equivalent of an electric gas station?
(and yes I do work for an electric utility in their Distribution Engineering Dept.). We have MUCH larger individual customer loads than that (in the tens of Megawatts). This is not unusual.
I have seen this straw man thrown out again and again, that existing infrastructure can't possibly support the widespread use of electric cars, but you never hear that from anyone in the electrical ut
MIT car FAILS to outperform... (Score:5, Insightful)
Primarily on the fact that while a 1994 Honda Civic exists, the MIT Electric car that the page describes doesn't even exist yet. Not even in the "We're heading to the track to start testing" phase. Hell, not even to the "Lets turn the key and make sure the lights work" phase.
They just finished tearing apart the donor car a week ago. So far all they have is an over weight drive train, a single power cell package prototype, and a whole lot of pipe dreams.
This story is something that belongs in The Onion...
"Local Farm Boy Dreams Up Revolutionary New Automobile"
While no details on how he is going to overcome any of the significant obstacles in his way, we are excited that he has in fact been dreaming and has some ideas. Local organizations have donated some amount of parts for him to start working with, and his father has loaned him a welder.
That's about what we have here.
-Rick
Battery Issues (Score:3, Insightful)
Will they have the same problems as the Ipods? Exploding?
Re:Battery Issues (Score:4, Funny)
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No. In fact the biggest improvement of this car appears to be the nanophosphate battery. It doesn't use the chemicals inside traditional li-ions that become heated when overcharged (lithium particles start leaking across to the anode).
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Only if they name it the "Pinto" or the "Grand Victoria".
but... (Score:4, Insightful)
How much will it cost?
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from TFA the batteries alone are 80k and require 1000A at 356 volts for the 'rapid charge'. That is 356 kW.
Re:but... (Score:4, Interesting)
Add in the "10 minute recharge" and you get 356/6 KWh = 59.3KWh
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Obviously, it is hard to compare electric cars "mpg" because the cost of electricity and gasoline are different everywhere.
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Physics? (Score:4, Insightful)
This doesn't sound feasible. Back of the envelope:
Lets say 20hp average power required.
That's 15kilowatts.
At 100kph (62mph), 3.2 hours for 320kilometers.
48 kilowatt hours.
Lets say it's a 96 volts dc system. That's 500 amp/hours.
500 amp/hours charged in 10 minutes is 3000 amps, assuming 100% efficiency.
And these are the conservative numbers!
Even if all the other tech were there, how are they going to move 3000 amps into a car?
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Note that amp/hours should read amp-hours. Might as well nitpick myself before someone else does. :P
Re:Physics? (Score:5, Informative)
TFA says it is a 356 volt system that charges at 1000 amps.
a 500mcm aluminum conductor should move 1000A just fine.
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>>>a 500mcm
A what? I hope that's not micrometers because such a thin wire would not carry 1000 amps.
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Mcm is an abbreviation for 1000 circular mils (How the fuck they came up with that abbreviation, I have no idea), and a circular mil is the area of a circle 1/1000th of an inch (a mil) in diameter.
Converting that to metric, that gives us wire 18mm in diameter, which would be a bit smaller than 8/0 AWG.
Re:Physics? (Score:4, Funny)
That's either millicentimeters or a McMeter. In both cases, I'm confused.
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Re:Physics? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Physics? (Score:5, Funny)
That will be especially useful when the car travels back to the 1950's.
Re:Physics? (Score:5, Funny)
No, no, no, no, no. This sucker's electrical. But I need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of electricity I need.
- Dr. Emmett Brown
Re:Physics? (Score:5, Informative)
It's not a mispronunciation. The "jiga-" pronunciation was the one formally promoted in the US from the late 50s to the 80s. It is still, in fact, a correct but unusual pronunciation in English.
It comes from the Greek "gigas" (not bothering with unicode here), and if you've ever heard a gamma spoken in native Greek, both "jiga" and "giga" are off, but "jiga-" is a little closer. Think of ordering a gyro.
Re:Physics? (Score:5, Informative)
Watch the video. He explains that they are hooked up straight to the MIT power plant, and are thus able to dump huge amounts of power ("20 homes" worth) into the thing. They're pushing the envelope on the rapid recharge stuff.
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The batteries can take that kind of current, it is just that it wrecks there long-term life span. Simply put, you can charge a battery almost as fast as you can discharge it. 3000 Amps at 96 V may sound like a lot to your average residential home owner, but in the scheme of things, it isn't that much power. It is only 300 kW of power. Most factories have multi-megawatt substations. With 200 A, 240 V residential services (heating usage), it is only about 6 residential homes. The total transformer capaci
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With a forklift?
Offload the capacitor? (Score:2, Interesting)
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On one hand, I'm rooting them to fail because I think that no electric car can both save us from running out of gas *AND* solve all of the other problems inherent to the automobile that are also near the bursting point (like wasting tons of money to make four-lane highways filled with cars carrying only one person).
But, on the other hand, I'm looking forward to disassembling the "fast charging" system you propose to build railguns with the big capacitors.
Re:Offload the capacitor? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's one of the stupidest bloody things I have ever heard. A train is a way safer place to be than a car. Hell, they're not even in the same league!
The reason it takes you more time to get somewhere by train than by car on a (I'm assuming) congested highway isn't because transit sucks, but because transit in your area sucks. I'm guessing the main reason for that is the kind of money wasted on making four-lane highways and not train tracks.
Re:Offload the capacitor? (Score:5, Insightful)
See, this is what fascinates me the most. Even among people who claim to be atheist, cars are a religious thing, afforded faith beyond logic or rational thought that even mystical things are denied.
So, tell me, how was my wife supposed to avoid the driver who was on their cellphone who ran into my car from behind, totaling it? Your argument that you haven't had an accident in 20 years because you are driving carefully has about as much reality as the person who lived to 100 while smoking a pack a day saying that they smoked carefully. It's irrational and a perfect example of how your religious fervor for the Car as your Savior.
Nor was I telling you to get rid of your car. There is not a magical anti-car field preventing you from driving to a train station. Or riding a bike, where you can travel at least four times faster without breaking a sweat.
Mostly, after examining transportation statistics and applying them to my personal habits, I realized that if you avoid driving a car unless forced, you can burn the same amount of gasoline than a hybrid driver. Except that I come out ahead fiscally and actually discovered that I've got more time than before.
Nor do you understand that rail is a more efficient use of space. Four lanes in each direction with the accompanying noise and pollution as compared to a pair of rail lines that can be buried or surrounded by trees or otherwise gotten out of the way.
Nor do you realize that there is not a magical anti-train field preventing them from building a closer rail line. See, the same network effects that make the Internet work better when more people are on it also apply to the trains.
The problem is that there are a lot of people in America who refuse to consider that there might be a more efficient way to run things. Because you may not whisper incantations to it every morning or spend a good hour attending to it every Sunday, but you worship your car with the fervor of the most annoying televangelist.
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A capacitor that large would have a number of problems:
* It would be, monumentally, more expensive than the, already expensive, battery pack in the car.
* Since capacitors don't have, even close, to the same power density as a battery, it would take up a massive amount of space.e
* It would discharge way too fast for even the most advanced battery to handle (giving you the exact opposite problem as what you started with).
* The ultra-fast discharge would vaporize even the largest normal connector you could
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Have you ever swapped a propane tank at a gas station? The replacement tank is usually dirty, beat up, and not actually filled to capacity. I gave up doing that a long time ago and just pay a little extra to take my tank in to be refilled. I would never consider just swapping out something as expensive as the batteries in an electric car at a gas station.
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It's impossible. (Score:2, Insightful)
all-electric car with similar performance capabilities of gasoline-only counterparts
Look, it's just not possible. The energy density for batteries is simply so far away from what you get with an internal combustion engine, that it's not funny.
Look, I'm not saying that electric cars aren't useful, more efficient, more enviro-friendly, whatever.
But you aren't going to get performance similar to a gas vehicle until there are revolutionary breakthroughs in battery technology.
Re:It's impossible. (Score:4, Informative)
Outperform? (Score:3, Insightful)
To me, outperform means that it will need to:
1) Hit fewer pedestrians and cyclists
2) Be drivable while drunk
3) Not result in massive traffic jams
4) Not require huge ugly parking lots and parking garages.
5) Be cheap enough so that normal people, instead of rich douchebags, can afford it
6) Require fewer tax subsidies.
7) Allow the user to get some exercise instead of getting progressively fatter.
Re:Outperform? (Score:5, Funny)
Aha! A bicycle!
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You know, my shelter-from-bad-weather while biking is under a pound in weight and fits nicely in my bike bag. It's the latest in space age technology. It's called a waterproof jacket, a pair of waterproof pants, a pair of clear sunglasses, and a fender for the front tire. And a hood-like thing called a Balaclava.
Actually, I wish I'd realized how not-hard it all is at an earlier age. I stopped biking when I was in college when it was raining or snowing and there was no reason why I should have.
Going long
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8) Cook, clean, and work for me while I relax at the beach.
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A nice wish list, but most of it has nothing to do with the problem they're trying to solve: making electric vehicles as practical as gas-burning ones are today.
#1-3 could be solved by cars that drive themselves. #4 would involve a shift toward car-sharing or public transportation.
#5 and #6 are valid requirements that amount to the same thing: it should be cheap enough to win in the market. But I think it's reasonable to make it work, first, then worry about making it cheaper.
#7 is really not their problem.
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#7 is really not their problem. If you want to bike to work, that's great, but otherwise the only way your vehicle is going to help you stay in shape is to be large enough to contain a mobile gym. Which seems pretty silly.
That gives me an idea: make an electric car that contains bicycle pedals inside. You don't have to pedal hard enough to keep the car running, but any energy you put into the pedals recharges the battery. It would keep you in shape, and would extend the range of the car, even if not by that much.
320 *km*?! (Score:5, Insightful)
To be superior to a gasoline car, it should have more than half the range of a gasoline powered car, I should think. Most gasoline cars are sized to have about 400 miles range, which works out nicely given our average highway speed of 60--70 mph and our typical need to eat interval of five or six hours, with a 12% reserve for miscalculations.
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I would think the average time between bathroom breaks is shorter than the average time between food breaks. That should be the goal.
Nanophosphate (Score:2)
Interesting stuff. I wasn't aware Nanophosphate batteries were already in production. I wonder what the capacities are though. Zinc foil and carbon doesn't seem like it'd hold that much charge.
Competitive, huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't get me wrong, this is all cool stuff. One day relatively soon, I bet these things will be the norm.
But we need to stop with the hyperbolic comparisons to current cars. Apples and oranges. Any comparisons should be made to other types of experimental work along these lines.
Meh... (Score:2, Interesting)
What I want to know is... (Score:2)
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I know squat about this subject, but it does seem that they have some luxuries that the BlackBerry battery doesn't have. For example, it's no problem if the car battery becomes hot to the touch while charging.
Still, good point.
Re:What I want to know is... (Score:5, Informative)
The batteries in your cell phone and Blackberry are lithium polymer, based on lithium cobalt chemistry. These have the highest energy density of common commercially available batteries, but their safe charging rate is limited to somewhere around 1C -- that is, 1 amp per amp-hour of capacity.
The MIT batteries are lithium iron phosphate. These unfortunately have much lower energy density than lithium cobalt polymer cells (not in the least because there's no polymer version available; the cell are in a metal casing). But they have a high power density and they can take charge rates around 4-5C (for the regular cells; they don't have the specs on the automotive cells on their website). That translates to much shorter charge times.
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The size of the battery doesn't matter much, except for wire diameter issues and I guess heat. It's chemistry that really matters. The chemistry will be superior to that in your phone by say, a factor of 5 in charge speed. Then it's just a matter of charging a bunch of cells in parallel.
of course we are able to (Score:2)
make an electric car that performs like a gas powered car. It only costs 20 times what gas powered car would've cost by parts alone. According TFA, the battery array alone cost 80k, but those are commercial battery packs, not research battery packs. The difference being, it'd be very very difficult to drive the price point down to under 100k. And make such cars marketable.
Electricity (Score:2, Interesting)
A lot of articles recently about electric autos. Not a lot of (no) discussion about the electrical generation and delivery infrastructure.
(paragraph)I do not know about Europe, Asia, Africa or South America; but North America doesn't have the electrical generating capacity, nor the 440V lines into the home, necessary to support lighting your room and running your PC, much less any to spare for transportation. Don't believe me? In 1969 the standard delivery into a home was 250V/125V. Today it is 215V/108V.
hmmm (Score:2)
100 hours a week? That is a great way to do faulty engineering.
If I knew my car was designed by engineers who worked that much I'd get rid of it.
Time to upgrade my 67 GTO? (Score:2)
Dedication (Score:4, Insightful)
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That's more or less typical for a research assistant in some PhD programs. Grad students are worked to the bone. The upshot for these students, at least, is they'll be able to write their own ticket once they get out of school.
Recharge in 10 minutes? (Score:3, Interesting)
In order to rapidly recharge those batteries, they'll need 350 kilowatts. "That's enough power to blow the fuses on 20 residential homes at once ... so we'll be hooking up directly to MIT's power plant to get that kind of power," Gogoana said.
The primary reasons they can get it recharged quickly is using a new battery material (lithium iron-phosphate) and access to MIT's power plant. I know nothing about current grid limits, but I'd imagine we would need infrastructure changes just for a recharging station that supports 10+ vehicles every few miles. Otherwise this is your typical charge overnight on a 220V outlet electric car.
Why not capacitors? (Score:3, Interesting)
Are they inventing new technology GM & Tesla don't have or are they using a capacitor instead of a battery? If the latter, why aren't GM & Tesla doing that?
How far in the winter... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Its one thing to build a prototype. Its a much bigger challange to produce it. And its a much much bigger challange to produce it while conforming to a myriad of safety regulations (6 airbags, pedestrian safe, etc) get people to buy it without lawyers taking what little profit may be left when it breaks. But yeah, kudos if they get the fast recharge working. Selling out to carmakers would be a better plan than "rivaling" them.
Re:I didn't graduate from MIT; however (Score:4, Insightful)
That's exactly right. All too often people tout a new electric vehicle and then compare to existing vehicles. The problem is, all too often its an apples and oranges comparison. All too often people are actually comparing a go-cart, having no safety features with a real car.
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Yeah, the article said they retrofitted a 2010 mercury milan hybrid...which has gone through crash tests, has airbags, etc. Which article did you read?
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Its one thing to build a prototype. Its a much bigger challange to produce it.
That's exactly right. All too often people tout a new electric vehicle and then compare to existing vehicles.
Where you then replied, "Yeah, the article said they retrofitted a 2010 mercury milan hybrid...which has gone through crash tests, has airbags, etc. Which article did you read?"
Which raises the question, what thread did you read because while topical to the article your completely tangent to this thread.
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You do if you want to do science, or be part of the global economy, or just not be an ignorant american. (I happen to me an american and in the science field)
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You do if you want to do science, or be part of the global economy, or just not be an ignorant american.
While using metric units may make it a bit easier to communicate with the non-USA parts of the world, not using them certainly doesn't stop anyone from doing science (lots of science was done prior to the invention of the metric system), or from being part of the global economy (I think the USA is a pretty big player), or from learning...
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If you plan on selling them anywhere BUT the USA you certainly DO need metric units. BTW, how many two liter Coke and Pepsi bottles do you have in your fridge? Rather than sixteen ounce sodas all I see are one liter ones. The only soda that comes in imperial units are twelve ounce cans.
The metric system is slowly gaining traction here. IMO that's a good thing; it cost US manufacturers lots of money to use imperial units when trying to sell elsewhere.
Ridiculous recharging specs! (Score:3, Insightful)
Ridiculous recharging specs!
365 volts at 1000 amps is about ten times the available power at the average house. In order to carry this off you'd need a major upgrade of the wires going to each house, plus some interlocks so only 10% of the houses can be charging at any time.
The charging rate of 365 kilowatts, assuming a battery of 90% charging efficiency, means the battery needs 36.5 kilowatts of cooling while charging. That's one HUGE fan, or a complex liquid cooling loop.
We don't know the temperature co