A Tale of Two Windows 7s 770
theodp writes "It was the best of operating systems, it was the worst of operating systems. When it comes to the merits of Windows 7, it looks like Slate's Farhad Manjoo and PC Magazine's John Dvorak are going to have to agree to disagree. Manjoo gives Windows 7 a big thumbs-up (a sincere one, unlike Linus!), calling it a 'crowning achievement,' while Dvorak is less than impressed, saying, 'Win 7 is really just a Vista martini. The operating system may have two olives instead of one this time out, but it's still made with the same cheap Microsoft vodka.' So, for those of you who've had a chance to check things out, are things really different this time?"
Multiple readers have also pointed out that there have been problems with the download and installation of Windows 7 upgrades obtained through the student discount offer, which Microsoft has confirmed.
Vodka (Score:5, Interesting)
Microsoft Vodka? When do they learn to use Russian Standard Vodka [russianstandardvodka.com] (worth checking out btw, some style for the Saturday night).
But for that matter, haven't it been established for long already that Win7 is basically Vista with the quirks removed and improved features. Vista was more like a transition, while actually still being a good OS.
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Insightful)
But for that matter, haven't it been established for long already that Win7 is basically Vista
Vista was somewhat unfairly blasted, Windows 7 is being somewhat unfairly hyped. The differences really are trivial, the Vista launch was just poorly managed. If you took an average customer and stuck windows vista and windows 7 in front of them they'd probably not notice the difference.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Funny)
If you took an average customer and stuck windows vista and windows 7 in front of them they'd probably not notice the difference.
Are you the guy behind the "Mojave" campaign? ;^)
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
The biggest difference is that Vista required a major hardware upgrade to run properly. Then when MS realized that there weren't enough "Vista capable" machines in existence to sell enough copies, they tried to shoehorn it into some platforms where it really couldn't perform. So Vista's failure was mostly the fault of the marketing people overriding the engineered design. Although the performance tuning of things like memory caching and the search service were also big problems.
Windows 7 has a much better chance of success because hardware sold over the past couple of years will have no problem running it. In fact, even some machines that couldn't run Vista should be able to run Win 7. However, if you are already running Vista on a dual-core machine with a couple gigs of memory, there's no real reason to upgrade unless you find the UI changes compelling.
Ironically, apart from the one-liner about the "cheap Microsoft vodka", Dvorak has absolutely nothing to say about the operating system itself. He spends the whole column railing about the incompetence of the MS marketing department and whinging that he is no longer treated like a press god. Looks like he's finally catching on that the industry has passed him by.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
He got you to read his article, didn't he? I think he decided to make a bad review of 7 just because, in a sea of decent reviews, his would stand out and get more pageviews.
I refuse to read Dvorak, because I really don't think he has anything useful to add.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Looks like he's finally catching on that the industry has passed him by
Three cheers for progress.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Vista was somewhat unfairly blasted, Windows 7 is being somewhat unfairly hyped.
Windows 7 is to Vista what XP was to ME, as some have said? Perhaps. I prefer to think of Windows 7 as the Obama of operating systems. Promising, though anything but proven, and its main achievement seems to be being different to a wildly unpopular predecessor.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not sure how this got to +5 insightful, but to offer a different take:
I've been running windows 7 on two systems since the RC. It crashed once right at install. It's been perfectly stable the entire time on both systems since (several months). The only times I've restarted were to install updates.
I just timed the usb external drive and flash drive, less than 5 sec on each. I haven't tried out a ram swap, so not sure about the licensing. As for the prompt to install, it's not a bad idea for people that just
Re: (Score:3)
>>>Clearly you have not used windows 7 as there is no classic mode anymore.
Sure there is. You can make Win7 look just like XP so that, as first glance, you can't tell which is which.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Clearly you have not used windows 7 as there is no classic mode anymore
Right-click Desktop -> Personalize -> at the bottom under "Basic and High Contrast" choose Windows Classic.
Then right-click Taskbar -> Properties -> under "Taskbar Appearance" check "use small icons"
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Interesting)
Interesting.. I'm counting 2 BSODs, 6 complete lock ups and a few failures to activate disk drives waking up from sleep mode since Monday (I got the UK preorder, which came early due to the postal strikes here).
So, your end of story isn't quite the end of the story it seems (isn't that always the way with someone that says "end of story"? It usually means "I can't think of any evidence, or any proof, so don't want to talk anymore in case you prove me wrong").
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In the past 2 weeks. I had my Ubuntu Box crash on me twice, actually a 3 weeks ago it was a lot more because I was looking at the screen savers. My Debian server crashed running only one Virtual Box VM, My Mac Crashed and needed to be restored from backups. Saying windows is more prone to crashing then other OS's is false. Prone to viruses is an other thing, but a clean un-virused WIndows actually is more stable then Both Linux and Macs in my opinion. However Windows vulnerability to Viruses makes it ra
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Informative)
We have one RHEL 3 machine that's gone offline twice in 5 years -- once when it did a controlled thermal shutdown (air conditioner failed) and another when a noob IT guy hot-plugged an external SCSI array (MSA 30) into the box (the drives are hot-pluggable but the enclosure is not). I've been running Red Hat in some form since 5.2 and the box that ran that only stopped once -- we turned it off when the suspended ceiling snapped and fell all around it. I had to vacuum it out.
Now I'm not saying that Debian is the most stable in the world -- it's an end-user, experimental OS that's very aggressive in trying out new features, similar to Fedora and I haven't used Debian in ages -- but the last time I had a bunch of machines failing, we found out it was arcing in the electrical panel. It took 3 electricians to find it and we were wondering why UPS's, fans, and machines kept dying.
I have 3 Fedora 8, 2 RHEL 5.4, and 3 RHEL 3 servers and they're really very boring to maintain. I got some excitement earlier this week when a power outage caused a (different) RHEL3 machine using software RAID to fail 2 arrays (1 drive with 4 partitions in different arrays had 2 of its partitions get out of sync due to the power loss and got automatically kicked from 2 of the arrays). I just added the partitions back to the arrays manually, it's a single command. The server and arrays were online the whole time so nobody noticed / cared.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I'm counting 2 BSODs, 6 complete lock ups and a few failures to activate disk drives waking up from sleep mode since Monday (I got the UK preorder, which came early due to the postal strikes here).
All that since monday? Clearly you have driver or even hardware problems.
Blame Microsoft if it makes you feel better, but the real problem is almost certainly elsewhere.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
By that logc, you should not blame Linux is a driver does not exist, or is not full featured, for some piece of hardware.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Interesting.. I'm counting 2 BSODs, 6 complete lock ups and a few failures to activate disk drives waking up from sleep mode since Monday
If I saw this behavior I'd be thinking I'd had serious hardware or driver issues.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Funny)
Uuum, NO. How can you have completely forgotten about the vast DRM horrors that got introduced in Vista? All the other things, like slowness, compatibility problems, partially a bad architecture, were results of this one thing, and by themselves not the relevant points. They existed, because every shit and his mother now had to be encrypted and locked down.
The FUD is strong in this one.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Dvorak is saying that there's really not a lot new. He's saying that Microsoft didn't bring into the fold those things they promised in Vista prior to the launch (all the interesting technologies they cut out). He's saying that Windows 7 is really just Vista with a few new eye-candy like things. Yes, it is a bit less resource hungry but even with all that the amount of performance gain is only about 5% over that of Vista, which goes unnoticed by the average user.
The feature sets that they added are not that significant and some of them aren't even based on Vista, instead they are based on add-ins such as WMP.
Technically, Dvorak is correct. It's just another run on the laundry where some of the more significant stains happened to come out.
A page from Apple's PR book... (Score:3, Insightful)
Dvorak complains in his rank that "Somewhere along the line, Microsoft apparently decided that it only wants to deal with those amenable suckers who will give it a pass on everything". This has been the apple strategy for years, any new hack who doesn't write glowing reviews (or even has the slightest criticism) is cut off from Apple. The hacks, like Mossberg, who praise every apple-touched product are showered with special treatment--including preview samples and preferred access.
When Apple does this it'
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Mostly it sounded like Dvorak was annoyed that he wasn't being treated like the big cheese that he thinks he is:
"I haven't received a single personal note from a Microsoft PR person for roughly four years."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think Windows 7 is a Microsoft marketing and PR brilliance myself. They basically just slapped a lucky #7 on Vista, added just enough new features that they could say it wasn't Vista with a straight face and apparently succeeded in transforming from complete failure to at least a reasonable, if not raging success. Its a tribute to the power of marketing to make lemonade out of lemons. It will probably open an opportunity for them to end of life XP, which they desperately want to do, and force everyone
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Informative)
Win7 has a fair number of new features, but let me ask you a question,
What is more important: Coding shiny new Gee Wiz features or making dramatic improvements to the underlying engineering of a system? Which would you rather support, mounds of eye candy or a thousand small improvements that make a system more responsive and more stable?
If you read the Engineering Windows 7 [msdn.com] blog you can read out about dozens of changes that have gone into Windows 7 from the kernel on up. Some of them are directly noticable by end users, but a lot of other ones are not so immediately visible.
For example, I have a USB gaming headset. I plug it into the front USB port on my machine and I have good quality headphones + mic. In XP and Vista I had to exit out of whatever apps I was using and restart them to switch them over to the USB headset. Win7 can switch apps over between audio end points and inputs (basically sound cards) dynamically.
It is awesome, it is cool, but it sure isn't gee wiz shiny. Still though, it is something I appreciate, much more so then I likely would appreciate new eye candy.
What I am trying to say here is, just because Win7 doesn't have brand new seizure inducing GFX doesn't mean nothing has changed. It just means the changes are more subtle, and more focused on the overall under the covers quality of the OS.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
IDLE-TIME PROCESS. Once in a while the system will go into an idle mode, requiring from five minutes to half an hour to unwind. It's weird, and I almost always have to reboot. When I hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete, I see that the System Idle Process is hogging all the resources and chewing up 95 percent of the processor's cycles. Doing what? Doing nothing? Once in a while, after you've clicked all over the screen trying to get the system to do something other than idle, all your clicks suddenly ignite and the screen goes crazy with activity. This is not right.
Nice going mods! Veeery informative...
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Informative)
Revisionist History (Score:4, Interesting)
Vista was more like a transition, while actually still being a good OS.
That is revisionist history in the extreme.
Despite all who liked Vista - and there were many - no, it was not a good operating system if you use simple consumer metrics: a) it frustrated people, b) it caused many working Windows systems to no longer work, c) it created confusion without end.
You can even use this simple product metric - it was so bad that the company that made it decided to call the fixed version by a completely different name.
At the risk of being modded down as a basher - and I'm not - I say this because it's REALITY.
You might want to disagree with me as a happy Vista user - but that makes my point. You might WANT for reality to have been that Vista was great and poor, poor Microsoft was unfairly slagged and misunderstood - but that is not Vista's history.
Do you even remember Longhorn? How that failed to materialize? How Vista was supposed to be all of the Longhorn goodness that was supposed to be ready for prime-time release? You do know that Vista wasn't just some follow-on to XP that didn't get a fair shake, yes? And if it was supposed to be the transition to anything, it would have been to the lauded claims of Longhorn?
Vista failed. Microsoft fixed it (we hope) - but it was such a failure, they had to rename it.
That was not the fault of Consumer Misunderstanding or poor Microsoft being bashed by the Spiteful Media or People Like Me.
It failed because too us could get it to work - and fewer still were those that got it working that didn't still prefer XP.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Revisionist History (Score:4, Insightful)
Longhorn was the code name for Longhorn. When they couldn't deliver on their promises, they throttled back and delivered a subset that you know as Vista.
Removing significant features != Eventually becomes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WinFS [wikipedia.org]
From that page: 'WinFS was billed as one of the pillars of the "Longhorn" wave of technologies, and would ship as part of the next version of Windows.'
Kinda matches my memory - and I do believe that there were other promised techs as well with Longhorn, also not delivered.
Longhorn didn't disappear, it was the code name for what eventually became Vista.
Wanting a thing to be true does not make it true.
You're spouting more revisionist history as well.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
that should be thier slogan
Windows 7: decent
and only half a decade late
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>Linux is still hampered by -perceived- usability problems
That's because it's written for programming geeks, not your average idiot. Heck even an engineer, like me, has a difficult time using Linux. (Change an Ubuntu screen to 640x480, and then try to change it back, without using secret hidden commands. Can't be done.)
Windows and MacOS are idiot-friendly. Even the ancient AmigaOS and C=64 GEOS are idiot-friendly. That's what Linux needs to become if it wants to be a universal replacement desktop, instead of just an isolated tool for technicians.
Uh oh. Here come the mods...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Change an Ubuntu screen to 640x480, and then try to change it back, without using secret hidden commands. Can't be done
While this begs the question of why you changed it in to that in the first place, I just did it, so yes you can.
As for idiot friendly, I just had to fix a Vista-AVG combined bug that kept my brother from being able to download ANYTHING. AVG was nixing everything (without even functioning as an anti-virus). Had to reboot to safe mode to remove it to fix the problem. Could never happen in Linux (because of sane software design principles).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So you're blaming Vista as a OS when the problem clearly was other program, AVG?
And yes, it would happen in Linux too. Linux antiviruses would go as deeply in the OS as in Windows too, and same kind of bugs would appear (as they have intercept downloads).
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Insightful)
"While this begs the question of why you changed it in to that in the first place"
No, it really doesn't. The fact that a user *can* change it is the only thing that matters. This is the issue with many (not all) devs in general. Say something they wrote isn't easy or is unintuitive and instead of fixing it they say "well nobody with a brain would do that" or "if they don't know how to figure it out then too bad for them". These are not valid comebacks.
I get that most devs are analytical and if there is at least one way to do something then it's "good enough". But UI's are subjective and as such just because there is a way to perform a given task in your software it does not mean that there isn't a better way to do the same thing for a larger number of people. When we say "the user experience sucks" we're not saying *you* as a dev suck. We're saying we simply want a better experience. This is something many designers learn early on (we create designs and get shot down on them all the time), but something many devs seem to never fully grasp.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The words above should be framed in gold. Ability to put oneself in someone else's shoes is pretty rare.
Also, regarding this specific case, a system friendly to a random consumer, should take care to provide visual clues for escaping from such situations.
Assumption that a random new user is to know standards of a system they are hardly familiar with, is flawed.
Regards,
Ruemere
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Actually just moving your mouse should have panned the screen. There may be another problem. Yes you can press the ALT key and click on a window to move it in Gnome, but you shouldn't have to. (BTW those things also work in similar ways on Windows and Mac).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>Its hold alt and drag. Its hardly a "secret key combo".
It's certainly not documented anywhere inside Ubuntu's Help Files. I looked. It wasn't there. I swore at being stuck in 640x480 and then reinstalled from CD
.
>>>you think the typical user is going to change screen resolutions?
Yes. (This is the problem with talking to geeks. They assume if a user has a problem, it's the USER who is the idiot. It couldn't *possibly* be a flaw in the precious code.) Why wouldn't a user change
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Insightful)
I do agree with you to a point though, Windows does handle this situation a bit better. However, you can't just take a single pet peeve and use it to claim that one OS is better than the other. Do you think WIndows is entirely without similar usability screw-ups? Or Mac OS? As a long-time Linux user, Windows frequently leaves me fuming, simply because it insists on doing so many things in a way that seems brain-dead from a Linux user's perspective.
Maybe Linux isn't as beginner-friendly as Windows. Maybe not though. Comments such as yours do nothing to prove it either way.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
While I agree with you that presenting a dialog (any dialog for that matter) partly outside the screen is really bad behavior from a usage perspective, the Alt+drag combination certainly is in the help files. It took me less than 30 seconds to find it, and this was the first time I ever read any of the help files.
You can find it if you click New to Ubunt
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Windows and MacOS are idiot-friendly. Even the ancient AmigaOS and C=64 GEOS are idiot-friendly. That's what Linux needs to become if it wants to be a universal replacement desktop, instead of just an isolated tool for technicians.
The day that happens, a new operating system will be created so that programming geeks can have a usable operating system...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux is not written for the programming geek. You are living 5+ years in the past when it comes to Linux. And, frankly it is foolish to attempt a demeaning of Linux based on your standard of measure since Windows was years ago far less user friendly than Linux is, and there were plenty of people using those unfriendly versions of Windows back then.
In the realm of Windows 5 years is nothing as Windows didn't change for a good 7 years. But 5 years to Linux is like a decade in the computing world.
I know ol
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. And theres lots of random issues like that. Once I installed Ubuntu some text we're randomly either really, really small and some we're huge. All the font sizes we're still normal and it was a fresh install. While I, who run linux servers daily, even couldn't solve the issue, how will a normal user do it?
I get that with Windows "OK" buttons (Score:3, Informative)
I get that with Windows "OK" buttons, so it's not just Linux.
PS you can drag windows around offscreen to get them back if you hold down (IIRC) the ALT key and drag the window.
Re:I get that with Windows "OK" buttons (Score:5, Informative)
I get that with Windows "OK" buttons, so it's not just Linux.
On Windows, there's UI guidelines which require dialogs to fit on the screen fully in 640x480 (maybe it's 800x600 since Vista actually, I vaguely recall an update in that department). Windows software doesn't have to follow those guidelines - and a lot of it doesn't - but all system dialogs do, and vast majority of MS applications does as well (I'm sure there's some odd exception, though I haven't seen one).
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Funny)
Once I installed Ubuntu some text we're randomly either really, really small and some we're huge.
I can see how the random text bug affects even your slashdot posts. That should definitely get fixed!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
-nod- I suspect most people who've been using Linux for a while are spoiled by alt-window-dragging, which renders that problem moot. I know I was shocked when I had to start using Windows for some tasks at work after years of only using Linux.
Incidentally, you can get a mostly-working alt-window-drag add-on for Windows here:
http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/windows-vista/get-the-linux-altwindow-drag-functionality-in-windows/ [howtogeek.com]
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
-nod- I suspect most people who've been using Linux for a while are spoiled by alt-window-dragging, which renders that problem moot
I'm sorry but on what planet is knowing a "secret handshake" to see a UI element you should never have to search for to begin with being spoiled?
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Insightful)
Being able to drag any window without finding the title bar is being spoiled.
In this case it also helps get around minor UI issues at low resolutions.
Holding alt and dragging with your mouse is no more a secret handshake in Linux than Win+E or Win+R is in Windows. You may not know them personally, but they're well documented and almost any geek will show them to you.
PS Win+R opens the Run dialog and Win+E opens an explorer window.
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Informative)
On Windows you don't need the Secret "alt window drag" because it you switch to 640x480, even though the "apply" button is off the bottom of the screen, you can still select it just by pressing Enter. That doesn't work on Ubuntu's display preferences window, so you're stuck.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>it is not usability problem
Yes it is. It's a lack of bug-checking by the Linux crew. Ubuntu's Display Preferences window does not fit on a 640x480 screen, which makes it impossible to access the "OK" button because it's off the bottom of the screen. So you'll be stuck in 640x480 mode forever.
Or until you can get some geek to reveal the secret ALT-CNTL-X-NUM-+ whatever key combo. Like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-L-0s-7-Z0 [youtube.com] - QUOTE: "Linux works for you, because with youses guy
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, except that it's a windows bug too. I learned to use the keyboard commands that move windows around for this very reason in windows. Alt+Space+M move around so I can see the resolutions. Alt+Space+M move around so I can see the actual apply buttons.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
>>>choose the resolution you want; click apply
The "apply" button doesn't fit on a 640x480 screen. Therefore you cannot click it. Therefore the average consumer will be stuck in 640x480 with no way to escape.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>Alt-drag a window then
And I was supposed to know to do that - How???
>>>similar as you did in Windows on 640x480
FALSE fucker. On Windows all you have to do it press Enter. Ditto Mac. Windows/Mac doesn't hide their commands in obscure locations.
.
.
.
The more I read, the more I realize the Linux motto is: "It's not a bug. It's not poor documentation. It's not unfriendly design. It's the user's fault. Every time. It's the idiot user, not Linux."
I obviously disagree. It's the progr
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Staples is selling a brand-new AMD X2 desktop with brand-new Windows7 at only $300. A comparable Mac costs about $1500.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Specs or gtfo
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So, your claim is not actually that "a Windows 7 machine at Staples is $300, and an equivalent machine from Apple is $1500", it's "Staples has a product I'd be interested in purchasing that comes with Windows 7 and costs $300, and Apple has a different product I'm not interested in purchasing that costs $1500". That's really a much weaker comparison.
Re:Vodka (Score:4, Informative)
I am definitely going to update to windows 7.
Fixed it for ya.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree with you. I have had vista on my PC for a while and I like it except for annoying security features.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
except for annoying UAC messages
So I take it you don't like knowing when you or any software steps over the user/administrator boundary?
Whenever I get one of those I didn't anticipate, it's time to hunt for malware.
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Insightful)
Keep in mind that Windows 7 *is not* Windows 7.
If you're running what claims to be Windows 7, open a command prompt and run `winver`.
It is Windows 6.1. In other words, a dot release of Vista. The actual Windows 7 that was talked about after Vista was released was the complete re-write you're referring to, however after Vista bombed, they re-skinned Vista and touted it as Windows 7. Make no mistake, you all bought the same thing as the mac users going from 10.5 to 10.6. It's not a whole new OS - it's the same old OS shipping with a new skin, and few new minor updates. Nothing more, nothing less. The whole thing is a ploy to finally get people to move off of XP. If it succeeds, it's the ultimate example of sheeple-ship.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hardly a good metaphor at all since everyone knows martinis are made with gin, not vodka.
Everyone does know that, right?
Re:Vodka (Score:5, Funny)
Die Dvorak (Score:5, Funny)
Seriously allready, it's not funny anymore
Good and bad... (Score:5, Informative)
I have installed it on three machines:
The good is that desktops work rather well.
The bad is that notebooks are rather problematic. I have an HP tablet that when the screen is flipped causes the machine to stop dead in its tracks.
The other problem I had was that upgrading an XP to Windows 7 machine worked ONCE I completely removed all of the partitions. Windows 7 needs a system partition that is blocked by most OEM's backup and restore partition. It frustrated me for five hours, and the messages from Windows 7 were crap.
Overall, Windows 7 is acceptable. Definitely needed when using Vista, but Windows 7 no work of wonder...
Want work of wonder... Ubuntu Netbook Remix. Now that has me impressed. I run Windows machines, but on my netbook Ubuntu Netbook Remix runs perfectly and the UI is brilliant. Much better than the Windows 7 stuff.
Re:Good and bad... (Score:4, Insightful)
Overall, Windows 7 is acceptable
Yay! We have XP back. Only took 8 years!
Are desktop OS's really dying ? (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article:
The desktop OS is besieged from all sides: More and more of our applications now run on the Web, and the idea of running huge, complex, and expensive personal systems will, in time, seem strange.
Does this remark seem strange to anyone else ? I, honestly, am not seeing this trend at all, but I've seen it talked about. What's the reality here ?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
From the article:
The desktop OS is besieged from all sides: More and more of our applications now run on the Web, and the idea of running huge, complex, and expensive personal systems will, in time, seem strange.
Does this remark seem strange to anyone else ? I, honestly, am not seeing this trend at all, but I've seen it talked about. What's the reality here ?
The reality here is various business interests with a large stake in server farms and service based software fee structures are pushing cloud computing. Hard.
You will see it talked about as if it is reality a lot, but it really hasn't fully materialized yet.
This is like someone in the 50's talking about things in "The Jetsons" as the way the future will be, for the time being. A "personal robot" will not seem strange in the future, and so on.
--
Toro
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's more important MS had another release (Score:4, Interesting)
If Windows 7 is any good or not is really a moot point. Every new, additional release of windows, and every new API they introduce dilutes the Windows XP/IE monoculture that was stopping the acceptance of alternative OSes. Microsoft is unlikely to ever regain the position of dominance they had on 2000-01, so it's only a matter of time.
A martini... (Score:5, Informative)
Dear John Dvorak,
A martini [wikipedia.org] is made with gin and vermouth.
A vodka martini is made with vodka.
Stick to bad car analogies next time.
Re:A martini... (Score:5, Funny)
A Linux distro is made with Linux, GNU and other stuff.
A GNU/Linux distro is made with Linux, GNU, other stuff, and the rainbows and unicorns that live only in your head.
Don't post as anonymous coward next time.
Re:A martini... (Score:5, Funny)
This is the guy who complained about that "idle process stealing 97% of his cpu power".
Do you expect he knows what he is talking about?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
It is a martini made by Microsoft after all.
So the ingredients are, what - Kool-aid and cheap tequila?
MS snatched victory from the jaws of failure... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well it looks like Microsoft has turned the Vista blunder into a Windows 7 success, money making opportunity... great move on their part. They did this by basically just waiting for drivers to mature, waiting for the hardware to catch up, and focusing on creating some fancy ads like these: Windows 7 Ad Campaign Kicks Off, Focuses on Features [osnews.com]
I tend to agree with Dvorak... Windows 7 is more like Vista SP3...plus some fancy interface updates but basically the same deep down.
Obligatory Futurama response (Score:5, Funny)
Small Glurmo: But, your Highness, she's a commoner. Her Slurm will taste foul.
Slurm Queen: Yes, which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic and make billions!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Agree what with Dvorak? Apart from the one-liner about cheap vodka, Dvorak doesn't discuss the operating systems at all. On the other hand, you're spot-on about Win 7 being a success because the rest of the market finally caught up with Vista. Reminds me of Windows NT, which never really succeeded until NT4 when the hardware finally caught up.
Does anyone REALLY take Dvorak seriously? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know this stuff has been beaten to death, but here's a guy who:
A) thought the mouse was a waste of time
B) thought the iPhone would fail
C) proclaimed there was no way Google would ever buy YouTube
among other things. In a strange sort of way, I almost admire him. He's managed to make a career of just complaining about stuff with not much to back it up.
The only thing I sort of remember is Dvorak claiming he had the scoop on Apple switching to Intel, but IIRC the rocket scientists at MacOS Rumors made the same claim. The implication here is that that prediction may not have been the most difficult to devine (i.e., saying that in the future, there will be a cure for cancer or some other disease.)
Quite frankly, if Dvorak is shitting all over Win7, my first reaction is that it's probably going to do well. In some ways, Dvorak is to tech as Jim Cramer is to stocks: Do the opposite of what they say and you'll be fine.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The only thing I sort of remember is Dvorak claiming he had the scoop on Apple switching to Intel....
That would be when he predicted Apple would adopt Intel Itanium [pcmag.com], naturally. And yes, this was well after Itanium had become "Itanic."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I like Dvorak. He's an outlier and a contrarian. A thousand guys can write essentially the same article, but Dvorak is different. And we only get new and interesting things in this world with people who think differently than the crowd. Sure the contrarian view will often be wrong and therefore unremarkable. But when a contrarian is right, it's a brilliant leap. And Dvorak isn't just a contrarian for its own sake, he presents a logical argument *why* he takes a contrarian position. Yes, I like Dvorak
Re:Does anyone REALLY take Dvorak seriously? (Score:5, Informative)
What Cloud??? (Score:3, Insightful)
Both reviews are based of the reviewers perception of what Microsoft needed to get right, and both are crap. Nobodys opinion matters as much as mine, cause I actually have to *buy* my copy of ... whatever.
My beef with the Microsoft fanboy's review is not that he got all mushy on 7, which I will admit is not a bad OS in my experience, but his insistance that its all pointless anyway, cause the 'cloud' is coming....
I know the mainstream media has to jump on the 'next new thing' bandwagon, but this particular bit of hype is baffling for a couple of reasons....
The entire concept of 'cloud computing' is moronic. Lets throw out 30 years of computer science innovation, turn our boxes into the computing equivalent of a toaster so we can use the internets, office software, Quake, and photoshop by subscribing to a never ending service that we cant actually even license...much less 'own'.
What could possibly go wrong? Once we all have thin clients on our desks hooked into the cloud, we can get rid of all the desktop programmers and put all the software innovation concentration on those super awesome AJAX developers out there, who can 'almost' pull off web apps that have the features of desktop apps we stopped using in 1998. Hype is stupid, the cloud is marketing fog.
I read both articles... (Score:3, Interesting)
...and came to the conclusion that I was dealing with a couple of cranks in Mssrs. Manjoo and Dvorak (not that the latter comes as any surprise).
Manjoo's piece attempted to 'prove' that Windows 7 was a better operating system based on one feature (Taskbar/Aero Views vs. Exposé) and provided a rather subjective critiqué even for that. I'd have liked to have learned more from him about why Windows 7 supposedly beats out Snow Leopard. Nonetheless, his first paragraph (with regards to crapware and the like) tells me what I've always known about the Windows experience: The more things change, the more they unfortunately remain the same.
As for Dvorak's piece, "cheap Microsoft vodka" paints a funny picture, but droning on about how he never gets any more press kits from Microsoft (is it really any wonder, knowing Dvorak?) doesn't tell me anything about Windows 7.
So what? (Score:5, Interesting)
If I pretend Vista never happened and I'm going straight from XP to 7, 7 is good.
I could do everything I need to do using just XP, but it wouldn't get done quite as rapidly or elegantly. The whole side-by-side window thing wins a bunch of gratitude from me to Microsoft. Windows key + left/right arrow = definite winner. Anything that reduces my interation with my mouse is a good thing. Works great with side-by-side monitors too :)
Windows 7 improves things *just* enough for me to have little moments of 'ooh, that's nice', which is something missing from XP and Vista.
USB device recognition: Fast. Very fast. ;)
Multi-monitor support: Slick. Unobtrusive. A no-brainer.
UI interactions: Rapid. Responsive. Highly configurable. -- I tend to turn off all the animations / slide effects. Me click close gadget = window gone instantly. Thus my productivity goes up a small percentage.
Hardware support: Inconspicuous. Works just like magic. -- My Nokia N97 (with or without installation of Nokia's Ovi application suite) works exactly as I need it to when I hook it up.
Firewall: I will never need a 3rd-party firewall. Windows 7's firewall (once you get at its interface) is nothing short of perfect.
Networking: Again, it just works. No need to faff about with it. Even recognised my nForce 4 based motherboard's Nvidia ethernet port. Not just recognised, but supports TCP offloading. Not that I needed to know this, but I went poking around
OK, I had to install graphics drivers to get any reasonable performance, but if I hadn't, I could still use my 1920x1200 native resolution and not really suffer *too* great a performance loss in office apps.
Windows 7 will see me through the next 6 years quite happily.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Funny)
Windows 7 will see me through the next 6 years quite happily.
Until 2015: The year of the Linux Desktop!
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Don't feed the trolls. (Score:3, Insightful)
Windows 7 is a lovely gift to the Web (for all!) (Score:3, Funny)
Why? Simple - it gets everyone, even the people who don't know any better, OFF of IE 6 and 7. IE 8 is no great technical achievement, but it sure makes my life easier as a web developer. When the hype is whipped up like it is for Win 7, then people are spurred to upgrade hardware, etc. It's a good deal.
If you have people in your life who won't change to a Mac or Ubuntu, try getting them to upgrade to Windows 7, PLEASE. Legally or illegally. All of us on Slashdot should know how to get a cracked/activated copy of Win 7 that doesn't call the mothership by now. If that's what it takes to get people off of IE 6, DO IT. The lesser of two evils here is moving people to Win 7/IE 8 rather than letting them stagnate the Web by continuing to use IE 6.
John Dvorak : tech :: Sean Hannity : punditry (Score:4, Insightful)
Windows 7 faster than what? (Score:5, Interesting)
OK, I have no problem with anyone saying Windows 7 is faster than XP. I've never actually seen Windows 7. But I have noticed this gem.
My laptop was disabled due to the cooling fans being completely blocked and my inability to find the 3 hidden screws to finally open the case. So I hooked up my old desktop, a Celeron 300MHz running Windows 95. When I finally got the laptop running, I could not believe how much slower a Pentum 4M 3.2 GHz with 4 times as much memory was at basic file manipulation. I'm not talking about running any programs, but just open folder move/copy/delete files. I have all visual effect turned off in XP, no thumbnail views, all explorer toolbars and options off, and all power options to Never turn off. Windows 95, double click on a folder and you see the contents before you can get your finger off the button. Same with moving, copying and deleting files, click and done. Everything responds instantly. Windows XP, click and wait. Tried shutting off everything, no wireless, no antivirus or anti spyware, nothing at all running at startup on a clean install, and still nothing responds as quickly.
Can anyone tell me why a computer that is 10 times faster with 4 times the memory is so much slower at responding to simple inputs? There's a perceptible lag when just single clicking a desktop icon to highlight it.
I liked computers so much better when the most important thing was reacting to what I was telling it to do.
There needs to be a Stop button, as in "stop doing everything that you're doing so you can respond to what I'm telling you to do right now."
Google "Farhad Manjoo" + Microsoft: Poodle (Score:5, Interesting)
Run the GUI - not the Computer (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh good. Yet another iteration of a Microsoft product. They can't just add features or make the old ones better; they have to put them in new places. Take the "Run" command and put it somewhere new. Change the Control Panel. Screw up the Networking configuration screens beyond belief. Change for change's sake. They do this crap in all their products not just the OS; Outlook, Office, etc. It's to the point that customers don't want to upgrade because they don't want to have to re-learn everything.
People ask me how I can remember all the Unix/Linux command line instructions and I tell them that it's easy. They have not changed much in 25 years. Once you learn them, you've learned them.... all you need is to learn any new ones or any new switches to the old, reliable commands. Contrast this with every Microsoft product ever stole...er, innovated where you'll find new locations for old commands. We know what we need to do but we can't find the stupid command to click on to make it work.
MS has truly lost their way. The single greatest Apple commercial was the one where John Hodges decided to put all the money on PR and spend nothing to fix the product. It's so typical.
Re:Run the GUI - not the Computer (Score:4, Interesting)
And aside for the very recent shift with PowerShell (which still can use the old commands anyway), Windows' commands haven't changed in forever either! WMI and you're good to go. Oh, you're talking about the UI! Yeah, that never changed in Linux, ever. No sir!.
Wait wait, i hear you... "But but...Linux is all about the command line! Windows is all UI!!!"
Yeah, right. Linux is all UI to the noobs too. So's Windows.
Windows 7 Will beThe Death Knell For Microsoft (Score:5, Informative)
A little background about me.... ... started in Acess and VB and moved in to NET and SQL.
I've been using Windows since Windows 386 - I even played with Windows 286 for 10 minutes. I really started using Windows all the time with 3.0 . OK... so I've been using it since the mid to late 80's . I'm a microsoft developer by trade
Vista , and now Windows 7, pushed me over to purchase a Macbok Pro. I've always admired the UI on those machines but Windows have been good enough and heaven knows it made me enough money.
So I try Vista 2 years ago. SLOW... excruciatingly bad user interface - Am I sure? Yes. Am I sure that I'm sure...? {sigh} I tried it 3 different times - couldn't take it more than a couple weeks. Transferring several gigs of info through the Explorer interface was a minimum of 5 times slower than in XP. Am I sure? Yes {sigh}
So I stick with XP and maintain Vista o a VM for when I have to test with it which is NEVER because NONE of my corporate clients are using it.
So I try Windows 7 about 2 months ago. Looks Pretty ! And it's not asking me if I'm sure it looks pretty every 2 minutes. It looks pretty right up till the time I go into Control Panel. Now it's not looking as nice. WTF? It's Control Panelzilla! Ahhhhh! And look how many new ways I have of sharing things. But you know what? I just want to share a fracking folder. I have a home group now too. I also have more things in my root drive than I ever wanted to see. Ever. Including lots of symbolic links. Which don't seem to be able to be handling correctly in Explorer. You haven't liven until you've seen a file path like "User Data/User/Data/User/ Data/ User data.... ad infinitum . Frack that. Oh ... and it's still slow. And it crashed on mee 5 times the first week.
So I get a MAc book Pro. A little over 900 bucks. It's light ... it's engineered well and the UI makes me wanna cry tears of joy. And it is faster on 2 gigs of memory and a 2.1 processor than my idiot HP 9700 was with Vista on 4 gigs and a 2.6 processor. MUCH faster. And I can run XP on it beautifully though I never do.
So I'm no longer a NET programmer. The same companies who NEVER adopted Vista (ummm... like all of them?) will NEVER adopt Win 7 - for the very same reasons. I think they will flock to something else. Linux? Maybe Macc? Maybe. Personally , I think they're screwed. Me? I'm learning Objective C and LAMP technologies and am going to reinvent myself programaticaly speaking. I'm through with MS. It's been a nice long ride bit it's over.
I've been around a while. I've seen IBM go from the major supplier of PCs and OS... to a non-player. Why? Because they thought they were gods and forgot they were just a corporation. They forgot they couldn't dictate what their clients wanted forever.
Think the paradigm can't shift?
Think again.
Re:Windows 7 Will beThe Death Knell For Microsoft (Score:4, Insightful)
You missed the point. It's not the learning curve gp was complaining about.
It's:
- speed
- stability
- requirements
- actual substantial improvements over XP.
In gp's experience both Vista and 7 failed on all 4 fronts. Slow, crashy, expensive and not better in any way.
Dvorak is right about Microsoft on this point (Score:3, Funny)
I don't have any time for Dvorak (or other "pundits") but he is right about Microsoft's publicity and media work being haplessly out of touch. I'm a PC... The Wow Starts Now... Gates and Seinfeld... Windows 7 Party... and, of course, any time CEO Steve Ballboy speaks ("Squirt me that... IBM should do hardware...") or is photographed without a bag over his head.
I don't foresee buying Windows 7. Windows XP works just fine. I see no compelling reason to attend any Windows 7 "Support Our Corporation" Party unle
Re:Dvorak is right about Microsoft on this point (Score:5, Funny)
You have poor taste in strippers.
Re:Dvorak is the enemy of slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
Dvorak is an idiot, trying to get publicity for his stupid views
Yeah. What kind of moron makes a martini [wikipedia.org] with vodka?!
Re:Show me a bullet list (Score:4, Informative)
I'd like to see a bullet list of the features in Win7 versus Vista and XP.
"Features new to Windows 7" [wikipedia.org].
The only reason I upgraded from Win2K to XP was for remote desktop functionality that I needed for work
One nice thing about 7 is that if you RD from 7 to 7/2008R2, you can have full accelerated Aero Glass experience (unlike Vista, which forced you into Basic), limited only by the capabilities of the client machine.