Toyota Accelerator Data Skewed Toward Elderly 776
An anonymous reader passes along this discussion on the data for the Toyota accelerator problem, from a few weeks back. (Here's a Google spreadsheet of the data.) "Several things are striking. First, the age distribution really is extremely skewed. The overwhelming majority are over 55. Here's what else you notice: a slight majority of the incidents involved someone either parking, pulling out of a parking space, in stop and go traffic, at a light or stop sign... in other words, probably starting up from a complete stop."
And 1/2... (Score:5, Funny)
Were little old ladies form Pasadena...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's simply a matter of economics, my friend. Gasoline (petrol) is currently running about $3 (2.25 Euro) per gallon here in the States vs. the average price of gasoline in Europe, which has been running about $6 (4.5 Euro) per hallon in Europe (on average).
Europeans pay doubl
Re:And 1/2... (Score:4, Insightful)
No, that's not the reason. The reason is that most people around the world drive stick. There are only a few countries around the world where people drive mostly automatic transmission. In most of the world, if you only know how to drive automatic, you'll be restricted to an license that only allows you to drive automatic transmission.
Where I live (Argentina) virtually no one drives automatic transmission cars. We get the same models you do, but with manual transmission. This is true in most of South America. I once made the mistake of renting a car in the UK. Driving on the wrong side of the road was fucking difficult, but the car had manual transmission (In the US is almost impossible to find a rental car with manual transmission, I know from experience, but in the UK they gave me one automatically, and without asking).
If you had this issue in MT, it would be:
a) Trivial to just hold the clutch and disengage the gears.
b) On the AT model, pushing the accelerator would switch gears, while in MT you would still be in your current gear.
You have way more control. Also, the whole calculation done is probably different, I'm guessing even completely different, so, maybe the bug isn't present in those versions.
Re:And 1/2... (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem isn't about how easy it is to do that. The problem is that, with AT, you almost never have to do it in the course of day-to-day driving; whereas with a stick, you do it so often it's practically instinctive.
Re:And 1/2... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:And 1/2... (Score:4, Insightful)
True. However many cars are drive by wire, meaning, there is no physical connection between the shifter and the transmission. So if there is a computer glitch, which may have happened with some of these cars, then you're SOL. Only option is to turn off the car -- unless it's a pushbutton start (like the Prius), then you're really up the creek ...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not trivial to shift into neutral *in a car with an electronically controlled automatic*.
The more things that are drive by wire, the more complexity there is on paths where you really don't want more complexity.
It's fairly difficult to quantify complexity, but it's so easy to estimate it that there's really no call for this.
Read *any* of the last 25 year's issues of RISKS Digest [risks.org] for more on this.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
hi neighbor (i'm from brasil). just to add one thing about manual transmissions.
in MT cars, acceleration from a stand still is a lot more fine-grained than in automatics. since you can't simply release the clutch completely without stalling the engine, the driver is required to apply some pressure to the gas, usually enough to put the engine in the maximum torque area of the torque curve, then release the clutch slowly. the more the clutch is released, the more RPMs is transmitted to the wheels. this efecti
Re:Did you type this on a manual typewriter? (Score:5, Insightful)
Spoken like a true AT fan. Have you ever even tried driving stick? It's hard for about 3 hours, but once you get a feel for it you simply have so much more control over how the car behaves that it is actually hard to deal with not doing it. I feel like I'm going to die every time I pull into busy traffic in an automatic... they always seem to upshift too early, sacrificing torque for smoothness, which would be great if I didn't have some whacko barreling up behind me at 50 and I need to be going fast enough that he won't smash into me 5 seconds ago.
Oh, and when they flub going up steep hills, that's just terrific.
But you just go ahead and keep knocking people who are better at driving than their cars, I'm sure you know better than they do.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Spoken like a true AT fan. Have you ever even tried driving stick?
I'm not GP, but allow me to chime in. I initially learned to drive manual - there is no other option in my home country. So that's what I had to prepare for, and that's what the practice exam was with.
But, as soon as I could, I got an AT car - and never regretted it. GP's comment about manual typewriters is spot on. For the sake of a flamebait, I'll add an even more apt one - driving manual is like running OpenBSD. Sure, you're in control, but do you really need to waste so much time and effort for so littl
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, you're in control, but do you really need to waste so much time and effort for so little benefit? Maybe, but for most people the answer is definitely "no".
When you're in control of half a ton of tempered steel traveling at roughly 60mph or more, then the answer is a definitive "yes." When we are talking about operating systems on home computers where a crash causes some headaches and a few days worth of inconvenience, you're right, you don't need that extra control. When we are talking about what is, essentially, a very powerful weapon that is supposed to be used for peaceful transport purposes (yes, that much directed energy is a weapon, like it or not) the
Re:Did you type this on a manual typewriter? (Score:4, Funny)
Dear mods, can we stop modding different opinions as flamebait please? Thanks.
Re:Did you type this on a manual typewriter? (Score:5, Funny)
All in all I'd be hard pressed to come up with a situation in which modern autos are "better".
Teenage girls.
That being said, i agree with you 100%. Ive been driving manual since getting my license, and find AT to be very annoying.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not that women can't because they're women and they're small, stupid, whatever reason anyone may argue. Teenage girls, in particular, may also be 80 pounds (though probably not, especially in the US) but they aren't experienced truck drivers, and they *don't care* about controlling the car safely. They care about getting where they want to go... the most technical thing they care about is hooking up their ipod to the stereo.
Teenage girls are the least likely of all demographics to care enough to learn
Re:Did you type this on a manual typewriter? (Score:5, Interesting)
Again, someone making fun of GP.
Ever driven an 18 wheeler? Ever driven an 18 wheeler with an AUTOMATIC???? I did. Once. Never again.
As has been pointed out, the transmission cannot anticipate that I need a bit more torgue to climb a hill that it hasn't sensed yet. Nor can it see that I need to merge into traffic. It senses nothing, anticipates nothing - it only responds to certain stimuli, and everything is WRONG by the time those stimuli reach the brain controlling the transmission.
Worse, that damned transmission took a nice stab at killing me. Going downhill, a driver puts the truck into a lower gear and/or engages the Jake brake to govern his speed going down the hill. Try that with an idiot computer which decides that you are wasting fuel at high RPM's and upshifts the transmission, just before you get to the steepest grade on the hill. I had a hairy few minutes, believe me. 80,000 pounds of inertia falling into the gravity well is hard to overcome when the machine is fighting with you!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for an enlightening post. It clear up some confusion in my mind about AT vs Manual transmission.
I've never driven a truck of the sort you are talking about, but I can see how human intelligence can make the difference in alot of situations as you pointed out.
I got my license on an AT, and when I bought a car with a Manual transmission, I thought, hmm, I guess it's going to be harder to eat that Whopper now while I'm driving, other than that I didn't see any real advantages or disadvantages to it. V
Re:Did you type this on a manual typewriter? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd much rather switch gears myself. The car can't see the hill coming up, or spot the hole in traffic I need to merge into. I can, and having the ability to select gears for power or economy as I please makes handling those scenarios that much easier. The only place I'd prefer an automatic is when there's a string of stop signs on a hill, and there are morons behind me pulling right up to my bumper. I do sometimes roll back a hair, you know...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
i can't say, never having seen you drive.
You're the one arguing automatics can't be controlled properly. I want to know in what ways.
i think you've never driven for fun.
I drive quite frequently for fun, though not as often as I'm on a motorbike, these days.
when, on the other hand, you don't need to shift so frequently, it becomes nice to have something to think about. here, automatics just take away the enjoyment of a long drive.
Long drives are boring, regardless. Having to regularly row through t
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh my my. You have never driven a manual car I see.
Aside from the better fuel economy, the car is much nicer to drive.
It's a also a great theft deterrent - most car thieves in the US don't know how to drive stick.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
1 U.S. gallon ~ 3.79 liter, so $1/L ~ $3.79/gal, not 6.7.
not enough data (Score:4, Insightful)
27 data points is not enough to draw a strong conclusion.
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Insightful)
27 data points is not enough to draw a strong conclusion.
So why then should the court of public opinion concluded that it's Toyota's fault?
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Insightful)
Because GM is owned by the government, and by far the easiest way to gain market share is to take down the leader.
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Insightful)
The easiest way is to make a superior product, which GM fails at. Isn't NUMI enough proof, it's not the workers, it's the managers? Toyota took a failing GM plant, slapped together Corollas, or Prism's... what ever you choose to call them. All in less then 6 months. Toyota is on the top because they build a quality product, stand by it and when it's bad due to design, they just f'n fix it and GM looks at it like an opportunity to rape their clients (yet again).
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
it's not the workers, it's the managers
I listened to that This American Life, too, and there was a pretty significant change in worker behavior at NUMMI (vs when it was GM-Fremont) that could not be replicated at other GM plants because... (drum roll) workers at other plants didn't really think they'd be closed if they didn't reform. Aside from that episode, however, there are plenty of stories out there of sabotage by auto workers. The management was insular and came up with uninspiring designs, but the workers also did a truly awful job of b
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Rubbish.
In any reasonably mature market (which cars definitely are), it's damn difficult to build a superior product. Particularly when there are so many variables which can be tweaked and changing them impacts other aspects.
Make the car look better? How will that impact aerodynamics? Which will impact fuel economy...
Better build quality so bits don't fall off? OK, but that'll cost more money which will have to be either recouped in the sale price or swallowed by the manufacturer, resulting in lower per-
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
No.
It's easier to make lots of money in a shorter time with the "inferior product/blitz marketing" combo rather than a long slower trudge up "earning customer trust" hill with well-made products. And this suits today's "profits now -- fuck the long term viability of this company, I'll be gone by then" corporate mindset just fine. It's not easier to make the products themselves. Making cheaper products means a balancing act between a product that seems to be "good enough" quality for consumers, yet low enoug
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Informative)
Because regardless of whether this turns out to be more problems with cars or problems with drivers, Toyota's actions in the matter have been surreptitious at best [motortrend.com].
Toyota insisted the problem was with floormats until incidents with mat-less cars forced them to dig deeper.
They are on the record [salon.com] as patting themselves on the back for saving money by not issuing a recall sooner.
The way they have handled this is far more concerning than where the fault ultimately lay.
Re:not enough data (Score:4, Insightful)
What I find far more concerning than people who can't tell their floor mat is pressing on their gas pedal are the vast numbers of people like you who think unsubstaniated assertions are a valid form of evidence against someone/something they don't like.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Respectfully, from page 5 of the Motor Trend timeline [motortrend.com] that I linked:
That is when the Toyota recalls appear to kick into overdrive, and within a month sales are halted. I think I was reasonable in saying that mat-less incident is what finally provoked a deeper action on Toyota's part: they could no longer
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Fair point, I didn't see there was more than one page. However the incident initiated a seperate recall, it did not kick the first recall into overdrive. The decision to make the second recall was also made in less than a month after the first confirmed mat-less crash, "though the cause is still under investigation"(pg 6.)
"I think I was reasonable in saying that mat-less incident is what finally provoked a deeper act
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not far more concerning to me. Whats concerning is how stupid people can be when put in the situation. You literally just press the brakes or turn the car off and it stops!
I did a minor experiment. I was coasting around 15 MpH, then applied heavy acceleration and brakes at the same time. I was slowing down, but not nearly enough to do much in an urgency. Sure, at completely rest my brakes were enough to over-power the engine but engine + kinetic energy is another story.
My concern about this kind of issue isn't the car accelerating up to 100+ MpH on the highway. Like you say, there are ways to slow down and stop.
It's when it accelerates *at the wrong moment*. You're a cou
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Informative)
Re:not enough data (Score:4, Insightful)
Either the seat belts were not working/good, or you should have worn them.
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Not only is it very easy to steer a car with no power steering when it is moving (it gets easier the faster it goes in fact), the vacuum assist also lasts for a little while after the engine dies - should be more than long enough to provide help to bring the car to a stop. The assist dies after a few actions on the brake - try pumping your brake pedal without the engine on. When it goes solid, that's when the assist has run out.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This data is not very useful without knowing the age distribution of the drivers of Priuses. If 80% of the drivers are between the ages of 50 and 90, this data would mean that the frequency per age group is actually skewed low.
Re:not enough data (Score:5, Insightful)
The spreadsheet shows 20 age 50+ and 15 age 0-50. That doesn't sound statistically significant, let alone "overwhelming."
And if a driver is 50, are they put into the 40-50 category, or the 50-60 category? Where's the data on Toyota model/year ownership by age, needed to even begin to make a valid comparison? Is 55 the median age for the owner's of the models/years involved in these accidents?
Seems like a poorly thought out attempt to make a case to me.
one in a thousand odds not good enough? (Score:5, Interesting)
The odds of this kind of skew are ridiculously low.
We have ages of 27 people. 13 of them are over 65. If you look here [allcountries.org], you can compute that of all Americans over 15 years old, 16.5% are over 65. (14.4/(14.4+72.9)=16.5)
I'll be generous and assume that 20% of Toyota owners are over 65.
So in a sample of size 27, what are the odds of getting 13 or more people over 65, when the population you are looking at has only 20% of its people over 65?
The odds of getting that skewed of a sample are only about 1 in a thousand. (1-binomdist(12,27,.2,1)) So despite claims to the contrary, that is indeed statistically significant.
(Disclaimer: I know nothing about where this sample even came from, and am not claiming anything about its validity. I am merely disputing the posts dismissing this sample out of hand without doing some simple math.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
(This statement in no way implies that I believe older people are more dangerous drivers.)
(( Though I do. ))
So . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
parking, pulling out of a parking space, in stop and go traffic, at a light or stop sign... in other words, probably starting up from a complete stop
Or in other words, they take their foot off the pedal and put it on the wrong one.
Re:So . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
But if you're starting up from a complete stop you're expecting to go.
goes to show.. (Score:5, Funny)
Old people can't use computers. Even if it involves lightly pressing on the accelerator.
Re:goes to show.. (Score:5, Funny)
They tried to right-click on the brake.
I trust Woz (Score:2, Insightful)
Woz has already described the repro case.
Now, the iPad may not be the be all and end all of consumer devices, but I trust Woz when he talks.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
He described a case where unintended acceleration occurs.
He did not describe a case where uncontrollable acceleration occurs (in his case, the acceleration is halted by simply tapping the brakes).
Re:I trust Woz (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes but the Woz case is possible bug in the cruise control software, not the accelerator.
Right, because Cruise Control Software is in no way related to acceleration, right?
Re:I trust Woz (Score:5, Interesting)
A few years ago I bought the "safest car in the world" (that's the brand promise) second hand from a dealer. It had one previous owner, and was two years old.
Three weeks after purchase, it suddenly accelerated uncontrollable on the freeway. Pressing the brakes slowed it down, but when I lifted off the brakes again it kept accelerating. Quite unnerving.
I managed to find the cause (not that many things in a car should cause it to accelerate) quite quickly, the 3+/3- km/h cruise control adjustment micro switch had broken (physically) and now sat and "vibrated" towards the 3+ setting several times a second. Turning the cruise control completely off (separate switch) worked fine.
I had the broken part replaced by the dealer, and never said much about it. I wonder what had happened if I had described the case to the press. After all, you could claim the design is defective since a broken switch shouldn't result in such a scenario. ... I still drive that same car btw, 10 years later. Nothing's ever broken down since ;)
Here's a question (Score:3, Insightful)
If the vehicle has that much computer controlled functionality, why doesn't the black box tell which pedals were pressed at the time of impact and for the moments before impact? The black box system is arguably an invasion of privacy, but in this case it would go a long way toward fixing the problem(s) and perhaps saving lives.
Re:Here's a question (Score:5, Interesting)
The black box system does tell you that, in some cases at least. And it says that the driver is slamming their foot on the gas. I tend to believe the black box - but it's based on the same sensors and software that's supposedly at fault...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And who is it that's claiming the sensors and software are at fault? The people who were involved in the incidents, that's who. Of course they're claiming that; it's either make that claim or admit they screwed the pooch.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How do you know that their system tells you that?
NO ONE knows what the damn things record.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/233585 [newsweek.com]
Black Box... (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
IOW, showing that the system is self-consistent doesn't prove that it is correct.
Re:Here's a question (Score:5, Interesting)
If the vehicle has that much computer controlled functionality, why doesn't the black box tell which pedals were pressed at the time of impact and for the moments before impact? The black box system is arguably an invasion of privacy, but in this case it would go a long way toward fixing the problem(s) and perhaps saving lives.
I bought a brand new car in 2006. It was great for the first few months.
Then about 4 months in, it acted strangely. If I put the throttle past 1/2-way, the car would start bucking wildly. It was as if I was alternating between *flooring it* and *idling* every second. It was major because merging into fast traffic and crossing busy intersections (from a stop sign) was a real pain. I had to take it to the dealer 3 times for them to find the problem; they thought "user-error", fuel line, transmission, etc.
A sensor in the throttle assembly was faulty. It was reporting to the computer that I was flooring/idling/flooring/idling when in fact I obviously wasn't. It was showing the throttle position and everything.
So...
Had I gotten into an accident and someone looked at the black box, it would show the same thing. "Umm, he took his foot off the gas and then floored it, repeating. Probably drunk or distracted."
Re:Here's a question (Score:4, Informative)
The accelerator isn't a binary input, since it's measuring an analog range of pedal positions. From your description (and from the nature of the type of sensor I'm guessing they use) I'm guessing you were seeing sudden (not slewing) jumps between low and high values. If the sensor registers consistent jumps without any intermediate values the sensor is broken (and the software should detect such, as that's not a totally unheard of failure mode). I guarantee the control loop is sampling faster than you can slam it to the floor, which means it should be logging the transition values.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
You can't because Toyota won't show you that data. Their blackbox system is entirely CLOSED. In fact there was an article here on /. not that long ago about how there was precisely ONE laptop in the entire United States that was capable of reading the blackbox data.
Left foot don't know what the right foot is doing. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
...for you Septics
In case anyone else is as puzzled as I am -- it turns out that's rhyming slang for yank. (Septic tank, got it?)
stastically significant doesn't mean all (Score:2, Insightful)
This assumes there is only 1 problem, not a half dozen different problems occuring in different situations. Yes, there are probably some that are putting their foot on the wrong pedal, that happens with every make and model of vehicle out there. Lets say statistically all cars have some percentage of elderly putting their foot on the wrong pedal, subtract them out and look at what's left. Serious electrical or mechanical issues can be lost in the noise.
Hey! (Score:5, Funny)
Now get off my lawn before I accelerate uncontrollably and run you down!
God-damned kids!
Re:Hey! (Score:5, Informative)
It's a joke, taking advantage of the fact that "resemble" and "resent" both start with the same 4 letters.
The common phrase is "I resent that remark" which means "I take offense at your implying that I am ... whatever"
The joke is "I resemble that remark" which means "I am exactly like how you describe, but don't like it."
It's always done in a joking manner, feigning that you are angry when in fact you realize that you are guilty of whatever is described.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Eerie coincidence? (Score:2)
Could this have anything to do with this recent slashdot story?
Time Flies By As You Get Older [slashdot.org]
Correlation != causation (Score:3, Insightful)
The real explanation could be as simple as "Those 55 and older are the ones who can afford to buy the cars in question".
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Possibly, but that should be easy to answer. We need the data for ages for all owners of the affected cars.
Re:Correlation != causation (Score:5, Interesting)
The problem (as I see it) is a stackup of features:
pushbutton start/stop, and it doesn't stop when I momentarily push it.:
accelerator pedal by wire.:
transmission shift by wire.:
There is nothing in the owners manual that would tell me that you have to hold in the start/stop button in to stop it, I looked. That is beyond bullshit. I want a car that turns off when I tell it to, I will deal with the lack of power steering (you don't need it at 120mph) and a couple of power brake pedal pushes (the engine isn't making vacuume at full throttle anyway).
This is either an embedded software bug (it has issues with the cruise control sometimes when pulling a mountain) or RF susceptibility. At no time does ANYONE test for RF susceptibility with a nearby trucker running a linear amplifier on his CB radio. It is well above CE test limits.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
bingo. Ok, ok, I'm 53.
Aren't you a little too young to be playing bingo?
Other possibility (Score:2, Interesting)
Non-issue (Score:4, Interesting)
What it means is that there's likely zero problem with Toyota's cars and there never was.
What's happening is that people are missing the brake pedal and hitting the gas pedal without realizing it. Their car then speeds up, shocking them, and since they think they're foot is on the brake they slam it all the way down, stomp on it, etc., and it just keeps going.
The elderly do this all the time.
Toyota's are just really popular cars, and some lawyer out there smelled blood.
And right now is a really good time to buy a Toyota. You'll get the deal of a lifetime :)
Re:Non-issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Only if you can explain why the bumbling elderly somehow manage not to have wrong pedal crashes in other cars with the same frequency. If the explanation was "old drivers", then Lincoln and Cadillac would top the charts.
Can you also explain how a wrong pedal incident would lead to reliable reports of smoke pouring out of the wheels of a runaway car?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It's easy to explain. "Unintended acceleration" from hitting the wrong pedal is a common cause of accidents, especially among the elderly, and it's easily accepted as driver error. As soon as there is a report of it being the fault of some specific car, it opens a way for everyone involved in the accident to avoid blame, and potentially collect more money.
Had an accident in a toyota? Now not only was it not your fault, but you might get money out of it!
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
How do you know they don't have wrong pedal crashes in other cars with the same frequency? This Toyota recall has pulled people out of the woodwork and drawn the media into a frenzy; how do you know the incidence rate isn't equivalent for other cars?
Sigh, that answer is so simple (Score:3, Insightful)
Because Toyota hasn't pointed it out. Don't you think that if these incidents occured across all cars, the Toyota would have pointed it out by now?
Usually the best indication that something is not a defense is that the defense ain't using it.
but elderly *DO* it with other car! (Score:3, Interesting)
case in point : (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If the pedal spacing is causing excessive fatalities, then it is a design fault.
The data is for fatalities, not accidents. (Score:5, Insightful)
The data in question catagorizes fatalities. Elderly people are often
killed by accidents that would only injure a young person. This could explain
the data skew regardless of whether or there is an actual accelerator defect.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
An even greater correlation among the names (Score:3, Funny)
Statistics (Score:5, Insightful)
First thing you would need, if you really wanted to see if there was a correlation, would be the age distribution of Toyota drivers.
If, perhaps, the distribution looked just like this graph, it would mean nothing.
If, perhaps, the distribution of driver ages skewed to younger drivers, or showed a flat pattern, then you might have something.
Without that baseline, it isn't even worth coming up with theories.
Context (Score:5, Insightful)
These numbers are meaningless without the proper context.
First of all, what is the percentage of ownership, by driver age. In other words: Do a disproportionate amount of older people buy these cars?
Secondly, what is the comparable accident percentage, by car manufacturer and driver age. In other words: Do older people have a problem with all manufacturers or only Toyota?
Lastly, 24 incidents is way too few to make any kind of sane inference. Once you break it down by age category you have some categories that only have one to three members. At that low an amount they could simply represent random chance and not some sort of trend.
When you have such a low number you have two choices: ignore the problem or dig deeper beyond these simple statistics. Given that people's lives (and Toyota's reputation) are at stake I'd say that Toyota is doing the right thing by dissecting the cars and chasing every possible problem. If they find something then they can fix it, if they don't find anything then at least they gave it their best and can honestly say that these incidents seem to be user error.
I decided on a Civic instead. (Score:5, Interesting)
I started car shopping shortly after the bad press about Toyota broke. I always wanted a Corolla because of its great reputation.
I tried researching the issue, but nobody had hard numbers to firmly establish that the hype was hype. All I got were anecdotal accounts along the lines of "we've had Toyotas for years we love them". The only numbers I did get were that Toyotas got in more accidents per a given number of cars than Hondas, though it wasn't established if it was the car or the driver.
It occurred to me that the main reason I started thinking about the Corolla was reliability....in other words, not having to think about my car and here I was scouring the internet doing research.
Finally, the 2010 Car Buying Guide of The Consumer Reports came out. Everything that attracted me to the Corolla, reliability and safety seemed to rated slightly higher in the 2010 Civic.
If my current car was in better shape I probably would have waited 6 months for the smoke to clear before giving up on getting a Corolla.
My intuition is that a significant amount of bad hype is involved( though not the only issue going on ), but when it comes time to put down tens of thousands of dollars of your own money and take risks that could hurt you personally, your attitude changes.
I don't like spending more money for a Honda, but I can and given what is at risk it is not worth it to take a chance on a Corolla in the next few weeks.
I think getting their electronics analyzed by NASA is the smartest thing Toyota can do. They need a detached third party body with a stellar reputation to reassure people to clear their name.
Look at the average Toyota Driver... (Score:4, Insightful)
According to TTAC, the number #1 vehicle for unintended acceleration is the Lincoln TownCar. The Ford Police cruiser is one of the lowest, however. Funny thing is that, mechanically-- they are the same car. The difference is the people who drive them-- one group being highly trained with fast reaction times, and the other group-- well not so much.
It is not just age distribution that they need to look at with Toyota, it is the complete demographic of the Toyota owner. Car enthusiasts do not usually buy Toyota's these days. Toyota's are incredibly boring in appearance and they handle like slugs. The are anti-exciting, right up there with a root canal. The average Toyota driver is the person in the fast lane doing 45mph and texting someone at the same time. For the average user, unintended acceleration happens everytime they touch that strange scary pedal on the right. When you add in that their brakes are likely shot because they drag them all the damn time while talking on their i-phone going down the road-- and never do routine maintenance on their vehicle: it is no wonder they can't stop.
Toyota's main problem is that they decided to make cars for idiots and got bit by that (granted that is a large market share, just ask Microsoft).
A couple of points. (Score:5, Insightful)
1) Older people have slower reflexes. A thirty-year-old is more likely to regain control of a runaway without incident than a seventy-year-old regardless of the cause.
2) Older people are not as strong. A twenty-year-old may be able to stop a runaway by hitting the brakes where a seventy-year-old can't.
3) Regardless of whether or not Toyota has a computer problem, some of the Toyota runaways are probably due to "wrong pedal syndrome". What is the age distribution for "runaway" accidents for all makes?
4) As others have pointed out, the elderly are more likely to die in accidents.
5) As others have pointed out, the sample is too small to justify any conclusions about age.
And breast implants caused chronic fatigue (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyone remember that gem of litigation? The one where people won lawsuits claiming breast implants caused chronic fatigue syndrome despite the fact the rate of chronic fatigue among breast implant patients was the same as the general population.
The law isn't about the truth. It's about narrative.
Look at the Tylenol scare. There's only one way to respond as a company in that situation. Toyota's great sin is that they held back and waited for the truth.
Driving in the US and Europe is very different. (Score:3, Interesting)
I've driven recent model cars in both the US and Germany. When comparing things like fuel economy and performance, here's a short list of things people tend to forget:
Driving in the US means much more driving very long distances compared to Europe. So many of my European colleagues just don't grok this until I describe a few things. For example, an 8 hour drive from Phoenix to LA at 70+ miles per hour, then show them on a map how little of the US that actually covers. I do that, then ask them how far away they'd be if they drove for 8 hours from their house at that speed (as if it were possible).
Distances impact the relative "feel" of fuel costs. I live in a rural part of the country (as do 42% of McMericans). It's several miles drive for me to get to groceries. It can be a 45 minute commute at highway speeds just to get to work (not for me, but it's common enough). You just use a lot more fuel. This is also why public transportation is so much more difficult to make practical here. The distribution of population is radically different. Much of the US was settled after the advent of personal transportation that you didn't have to feed and water.
To my German friends -- don't feel bad about not quite fully understanding that sheer size and scope of the U.S. You aren't the first from Germany (well, technically Austria I suppose) to make that mistake. (poke).
P.S. - On the whole Automatic vs. Manual transmission thing -- I've certainly driven both. People claiming better turns on sweeping mountain roads and are driving front wheel drive cars are pretty much full of crap. Sure, a manual will give you a real edge with a rear wheel drive car. Otherwise, get over yourself and quit pretending your an F1 driver in your silly little consumer box.
When I drive in Europe, I make an effort to rent a small automatic. It costs more. Why? Because I don't know the roads well and my attention is full enough paying attention to the different road etiquette and the GPS combined with signs in different shapes than I'm used to and frequently in languages I don't speak.
Re: (Score:2)
my liberty and dodge stratus didn't. the cruise control only worked when already traveling over 30mph.
Also any tap on the brakes disables cruise control.
Re:Starting from full stop ..... (Score:5, Informative)
Any vehicle with cruise control will have the same issue.
Since you made such a total generalization, I can easily demonstrate that you are incorrect by only giving one example.
In the 1997 Nissan Sentra:
1) Any touch of the brake pedal cancels cruise.
2) If the vehicle goes under 30MPH for any reason, cruise is cancelled.
3) Once cruise is cancelled, it can only be started again by going over 30MPH; and even then, you can only set it to the speed you are currently going at; not at a higher or lower speed. (So you have to reach the desired speed manually, then hit the button).
Come back when you have facts, not fabrications.
Re:Starting from full stop ..... (Score:4, Interesting)
3) Once cruise is cancelled, it can only be started again by going over 30MPH; and even then, you can only set it to the speed you are currently going at; not at a higher or lower speed. (So you have to reach the desired speed manually, then hit the button).
Come back when you have facts, not fabrications.
Odd, my car (not a Nissan), cruise control has a "Resume" feature. If CC gets canceled for some reason (#1 and #2 above), I press the Resume button and the CC accelerates back up to the speed it was set at. Turning the car off or turning the CC OFF, would reset the CC, but other then that it remembers where it was set.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Starting from full stop ..... (Score:4, Informative)
BS (Score:3, Informative)
I have used a number of cruise control systems in GM, Ford, and Toyota vehicles of various vintages from the 70s on to brand new vehicles. I have NEVER ONCE seen a cruise control that would do what you describe. All of them refuse to activate below a minimum speed (over 25mph, over 30 in most cases.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Not to men
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, it's horrible. 55% of Prius unintended acceleration fatalities are with elderly drivers, and 15% of the fatalities at large are elderly drivers. Obviously there isn't any age link, right?
Re:From the point of view of an end user and dev (Score:3, Insightful)
Whether it's a complex interaction fo systems that can't be reproduced in QA, the uncovering of